Guild Wars 2

Did you guys see? The dev’s are listening, and the upcoming changes are proof.

They heard us when we pointed out, time and time again, it was poor design to have a condition based auto attack with a power/crit based dual skill. (P/P)

They heard us when we said that cramming all of our condition cleansing into a single trait (which is impossible to use in PvP anyway) was silly, and that we should have more condition removal options.

Then they made those changes to Warrior. I guess we weren’t specific enough.

(P.S. – this isn’t mean to rag on Warrior, it’s meant to point out the hilarious parallels)

huge buffs to Ranger and Engi. Minor nerf to Warriors, though I Think the GS change is for the better tbh im excited about the the GS F1. Thieves… well yea I dont know what to think of the changes yet. im hoping ele doesnt get nerfed and that mesmer and necro get a buff again

And Last Refuge did it again, it survived the next balanced change.

This thread made me lol, but causes a deep inner sadness as well. My feels are so conflicted.

Indeed, this is from the nerf wish list:

Zero Day.2594:

Originally by: Otaur.9268

What: Condition Damage (Chocking gas and caltrops specifically) and Stealth
Why: I spammed shortbow poison aoe, caltrops, etc to apply conditions on foes in area and noticed I can pretty much kill both players and monsters without becoming “revealed.” This is getting more and more popular in WvW and it is rather unfair… But this is enough, please make any damage the thieves do in stealth apply revealed. Spamming conditions from stealth should reveal them.
Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Condition-Damage-and-Stealth/first#post3225311

(Side note: Never mind the Mesmer’s clones…)

8 months ago, this poor soul was abused by choking gas… but now no more!

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What: “placed” AoE (i.e. Caltrops, Choking gas)
Why: Everything Thieves do must apply Revealed debuff, even if they fart in a crowded bus.

^ joke came true.

What’s next, using stealth reveals you?

borgs.6103:

What’s next, using stealth reveals you?

And to balance it, we only get revealed if a opponent is within 1,200 range. It now becomes more challanging to use stealth ,which will result in a huge buff in thiefs brainpower (!)

i’ll admit, i laughed :P

borgs.6103:

What’s next, using stealth reveals you?

Well, the SA trait that stealths you on steal is bugged, so you get revealed when you stealth from the steal. I guess this counts, until they bother fixing it.

FZeroWing.2098:

borgs.6103:

What’s next, using stealth reveals you?

Well, the SA trait that stealths you on steal is bugged, so you get revealed when you stealth from the steal. I guess this counts, until they bother fixing it.

it’s not a bug, you’re probably using a projectile weapon. the pistol shot (for example) that’s in travel time hits the target right after you stealth, so it looks bugged.

they should fix that though.

Juston.6817:

borgs.6103:

What’s next, using stealth reveals you?

And to balance it, we only get revealed if a opponent is within 1,200 range. It now becomes more challanging to use stealth ,which will result in a huge buff in thiefs brainpower (!)

“This change will bring skillful, challenging, and rewarding play for players.”

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What: “placed” AoE (i.e. Caltrops, Choking gas)
Why: Everything Thieves do must apply Revealed debuff, even if they fart in a crowded bus.

^ joke came true.

Yeah a 4sec poison field is definitely more powerful than a ranger pet, mesmer illusion or engi turret. >_>

data.4093:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What: “placed” AoE (i.e. Caltrops, Choking gas)
Why: Everything Thieves do must apply Revealed debuff, even if they fart in a crowded bus.

^ joke came true.

Yeah a 4sec poison field is definitely more powerful than a ranger pet, mesmer illusion or engi turret. >_>

True story! Stalk, burning, and knockbacks/stuns are a myth I tell you!

Remember that one time when they nerfed one profession’s primary defensive mechanic and then added some skills to other professions to ignore it anyway? What!?! Those same professions use the exact same mechanic with ZERO nerfs!?! This is bullkitten…

data.4093:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What: “placed” AoE (i.e. Caltrops, Choking gas)
Why: Everything Thieves do must apply Revealed debuff, even if they fart in a crowded bus.

^ joke came true.

Yeah a 4sec poison field is definitely more powerful than a ranger pet, mesmer illusion or engi turret. >_>

Because any of those classes have as much stealth as a thief? Stealth is the thief’s mechanic, the other classes don’t have anywhere near as much in comparison.

warriorjrd.8695:

data.4093:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What: “placed” AoE (i.e. Caltrops, Choking gas)
Why: Everything Thieves do must apply Revealed debuff, even if they fart in a crowded bus.

^ joke came true.

Yeah a 4sec poison field is definitely more powerful than a ranger pet, mesmer illusion or engi turret. >_>

Because any of those classes have as much stealth as a thief? Stealth is the thief’s mechanic, the other classes don’t have anywhere near as much in comparison.

When you consider that mesmers don’t get revealed when attacking from stealth, they can spend almost as much time per minute stealthed as a thief.. The other two don’t have the same access but that’s hardly valid when talking about ‘balancing’ a mechanic for one profession but not doing the same for others that use that very same mechanic. If stealth is going to reveal, it should ALWAYS do so.

BrunoBRS.5178:

FZeroWing.2098:

borgs.6103:

What’s next, using stealth reveals you?

Well, the SA trait that stealths you on steal is bugged, so you get revealed when you stealth from the steal. I guess this counts, until they bother fixing it.

it’s not a bug, you’re probably using a projectile weapon. the pistol shot (for example) that’s in travel time hits the target right after you stealth, so it looks bugged.

they should fix that though.

Stealth is so bugged lately that using it is like playing rng roulette. Mug + stealth on steal is bugged. Couple of times I got reveleaed debuff on me while standing in SR doing no dmg, no aoe either, didn’t get pushed out. Yesterday I had the best wtf moment with stealth ever, zerg chasing me, I drop SR (the usual, no dmg, no aoe, didn’t get pushed out), when I suddenly dropped stealth somehow, no revelaed but I saw no stealth icon in buff bar either. Whole zerg after me cos well, they saw me.. Some 4 to 5s later stealth came back without me doing anything (utilities on cds, bow equiped, HP too high for last refuge to kick in) and no friendly player around to stealth me.

Tman.6349:

warriorjrd.8695:

data.4093:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What: “placed” AoE (i.e. Caltrops, Choking gas)
Why: Everything Thieves do must apply Revealed debuff, even if they fart in a crowded bus.

^ joke came true.

Yeah a 4sec poison field is definitely more powerful than a ranger pet, mesmer illusion or engi turret. >_>

Because any of those classes have as much stealth as a thief? Stealth is the thief’s mechanic, the other classes don’t have anywhere near as much in comparison.

When you consider that mesmers don’t get revealed when attacking from stealth, they can spend almost as much time per minute stealthed as a thief.. The other two don’t have the same access but that’s hardly valid when talking about ‘balancing’ a mechanic for one profession but not doing the same for others that use that very same mechanic. If stealth is going to reveal, it should ALWAYS do so.

It reveals when the player themselves attack. As much as you don’t like it, an engi turret, ranger pet, or mesmer clone are not the player. However, each of those classes get the same revealed buff if they themselves attack. If you used thieves guild or had and AI runes, those AI wouldn’t reveal you because you aren’t attacking. It’s quite simple really. The only reason this feels like a nerf more than a fix is because thief isn’t as AI reliant as the other classes you mentioned, but like I said, any AI the thief does actually have won’t reveal the player.

warriorjrd.8695:

Tman.6349:

warriorjrd.8695:

data.4093:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What: “placed” AoE (i.e. Caltrops, Choking gas)
Why: Everything Thieves do must apply Revealed debuff, even if they fart in a crowded bus.

^ joke came true.

Yeah a 4sec poison field is definitely more powerful than a ranger pet, mesmer illusion or engi turret. >_>

Because any of those classes have as much stealth as a thief? Stealth is the thief’s mechanic, the other classes don’t have anywhere near as much in comparison.

When you consider that mesmers don’t get revealed when attacking from stealth, they can spend almost as much time per minute stealthed as a thief.. The other two don’t have the same access but that’s hardly valid when talking about ‘balancing’ a mechanic for one profession but not doing the same for others that use that very same mechanic. If stealth is going to reveal, it should ALWAYS do so.

The only reason this feels like a nerf more than a fix is because thief isn’t as AI reliant as the other classes you mentioned, but like I said, any AI the thief does actually have won’t reveal the player.

It is not a fix, it will never be a fix. It is another nerf to shortbow, on a 4 second poison field(lol). If we’re going to complain about attacks not forcing a player to leave stealth there are much more powerful things than a poison field. No one complains about shortbow but it is the most nerfed thief weapon set, all of the skills are nerfed. Even warrior longbow has a long way to go before it’s on par with the super duper overpowered thief shortbow.

data.4093:

warriorjrd.8695:

Tman.6349:

warriorjrd.8695:

data.4093:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What: “placed” AoE (i.e. Caltrops, Choking gas)
Why: Everything Thieves do must apply Revealed debuff, even if they fart in a crowded bus.

^ joke came true.

Yeah a 4sec poison field is definitely more powerful than a ranger pet, mesmer illusion or engi turret. >_>

Because any of those classes have as much stealth as a thief? Stealth is the thief’s mechanic, the other classes don’t have anywhere near as much in comparison.

When you consider that mesmers don’t get revealed when attacking from stealth, they can spend almost as much time per minute stealthed as a thief.. The other two don’t have the same access but that’s hardly valid when talking about ‘balancing’ a mechanic for one profession but not doing the same for others that use that very same mechanic. If stealth is going to reveal, it should ALWAYS do so.

The only reason this feels like a nerf more than a fix is because thief isn’t as AI reliant as the other classes you mentioned, but like I said, any AI the thief does actually have won’t reveal the player.

It is not a fix, it will never be a fix. It is another nerf to shortbow, on a 4 second poison field(lol). If we’re going to complain about attacks not forcing a player to leave stealth there are much more powerful things than a poison field. No one complains about shortbow but it is the most nerfed thief weapon set, all of the skills are nerfed. Even warrior longbow has a long way to go before it’s on par with the super duper overpowered thief shortbow.

That doesn’t defend what you’re trying to say, and if you’re still crying about the range nerf to SB, ranger SB got the same treatment. Why is it logical that you can attack enemies from stealth? I assume because you don’t want SB to reveal you, you also want every other attack to keep you in stealth and you only lose it when it runs out? Any attack by the player in stealth should reveal them, not that hard of a concept to grasp.

BrunoBRS.5178:

FZeroWing.2098:

borgs.6103:

What’s next, using stealth reveals you?

Well, the SA trait that stealths you on steal is bugged, so you get revealed when you stealth from the steal. I guess this counts, until they bother fixing it.

it’s not a bug, you’re probably using a projectile weapon. the pistol shot (for example) that’s in travel time hits the target right after you stealth, so it looks bugged.

they should fix that though.

No, it is a bug, it’s even listed in the thief bugs post. I am not talking about using an attack before stealing, it’s directly from the steal itself since mug appearently procs slightly after the steal which gives you the stealth from SA Trait first before causing the mug damage making you revealed.

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

warriorjrd.8695:

That doesn’t defend what you’re trying to say, and if you’re still crying about the range nerf to SB, ranger SB got the same treatment. Why is it logical that you can attack enemies from stealth? I assume because you don’t want SB to reveal you, you also want every other attack to keep you in stealth and you only lose it when it runs out? Any attack by the player in stealth should reveal them, not that hard of a concept to grasp.

You aren’t listening. I’m saying the nerf is NOT about the skill, it’s about the class. You say attacks by a player in stealth should reveal them but have you even considered mesmer’s temporal curtain, swap or moa skills? None of them reveal the mesmer and they come directly from it. We’re not even talking about the phantasms here. I don’t own a ranger or engi but I’m sure they have skills which don’t reveal them either. What on earth did you think I was referring to?

I assume because you don’t want SB to reveal you, you also want every other attack to keep you in stealth and you only lose it when it runs out?

wat.

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

Maybe, but I don’t think that changing unload to be a condi skill so that P/P is also a condition set is a good idea.

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

Maybe, but I don’t think that changing unload to be a condi skill so that P/P is also a condition set is a good idea.

Ok, why?

Do you prefer P/P as a poorly designed unusable set?

There’s only 3 directions they can go with it.
1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).
2) Change Pistol AA to a direct damage ability only when equipped with another pistol (or else it ruins P/D)
3) Change both the Pistol AA and Unload to be hybrid Condi/direct damage skills.

2 isn’t happening – it’s a major departure from how the class has been designed, and would be legitimately confusing for new players.
3 Has been an option forever, but they’ve never taken that route – with the popularity of Celestial amulet surging, I don’t see them going this route now when it might potentially be very powerful.

warriorjrd.8695:

data.4093:

warriorjrd.8695:

Tman.6349:

warriorjrd.8695:

data.4093:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What: “placed” AoE (i.e. Caltrops, Choking gas)
Why: Everything Thieves do must apply Revealed debuff, even if they fart in a crowded bus.

^ joke came true.

Yeah a 4sec poison field is definitely more powerful than a ranger pet, mesmer illusion or engi turret. >_>

Because any of those classes have as much stealth as a thief? Stealth is the thief’s mechanic, the other classes don’t have anywhere near as much in comparison.

When you consider that mesmers don’t get revealed when attacking from stealth, they can spend almost as much time per minute stealthed as a thief.. The other two don’t have the same access but that’s hardly valid when talking about ‘balancing’ a mechanic for one profession but not doing the same for others that use that very same mechanic. If stealth is going to reveal, it should ALWAYS do so.

The only reason this feels like a nerf more than a fix is because thief isn’t as AI reliant as the other classes you mentioned, but like I said, any AI the thief does actually have won’t reveal the player.

It is not a fix, it will never be a fix. It is another nerf to shortbow, on a 4 second poison field(lol). If we’re going to complain about attacks not forcing a player to leave stealth there are much more powerful things than a poison field. No one complains about shortbow but it is the most nerfed thief weapon set, all of the skills are nerfed. Even warrior longbow has a long way to go before it’s on par with the super duper overpowered thief shortbow.

That doesn’t defend what you’re trying to say, and if you’re still crying about the range nerf to SB, ranger SB got the same treatment. Why is it logical that you can attack enemies from stealth? I assume because you don’t want SB to reveal you, you also want every other attack to keep you in stealth and you only lose it when it runs out? Any attack by the player in stealth should reveal them, not that hard of a concept to grasp.

Tell that to mesmers and their AI.

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

Maybe, but I don’t think that changing unload to be a condi skill so that P/P is also a condition set is a good idea.

Ok, why?

Do you prefer P/P as a poorly designed unusable set?

There’s only 3 directions they can go with it.
1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).
2) Change Pistol AA to a direct damage ability only when equipped with another pistol (or else it ruins P/D)
3) Change both the Pistol AA and Unload to be hybrid Condi/direct damage skills.

2 isn’t happening – it’s a major departure from how the class has been designed, and would be legitimately confusing for new players.
3 Has been an option forever, but they’ve never taken that route – with the popularity of Celestial amulet surging, I don’t see them going this route now when it might potentially be very powerful.

I prefer P/P being a good ranged option for single target fights in PvE than to being condition weaponset in PvP, when we already have another weaponset that fulfills that role just fine.

Ideally, I’d like to see the power-based damage of P/P strong enough to make it a more viable set to a power build, even if there’s a bleed on the auto attack.

Even if you made unload a condi skill, P/P would still be an absolutely terrible set in PvP, while becoming worse than the short bow for PvE ranged fights.

Making the damage type of attack skills to be consistent doesn’t make a weaponset suddenly viable or balanced.

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

Maybe, but I don’t think that changing unload to be a condi skill so that P/P is also a condition set is a good idea.

Ok, why?

Do you prefer P/P as a poorly designed unusable set?

There’s only 3 directions they can go with it.
1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).
2) Change Pistol AA to a direct damage ability only when equipped with another pistol (or else it ruins P/D)
3) Change both the Pistol AA and Unload to be hybrid Condi/direct damage skills.

2 isn’t happening – it’s a major departure from how the class has been designed, and would be legitimately confusing for new players.
3 Has been an option forever, but they’ve never taken that route – with the popularity of Celestial amulet surging, I don’t see them going this route now when it might potentially be very powerful.

I prefer P/P being a good ranged option for single target fights in PvE than to being condition weaponset in PvP, when we already have another weaponset that fulfills that role just fine.

Ideally, I’d like to see the power-based damage of P/P strong enough to make it a more viable set to a power build, even if there’s a bleed on the auto attack.

Even if you made unload a condi skill, P/P would still be an absolutely terrible set in PvP, while becoming worse than the short bow for PvE ranged fights.

Making the damage type of attack skills to be consistent doesn’t make a weaponset suddenly viable or balanced.

I’m just going to quote myself from a couple posts up

evilapprentice.6379:

1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

Maybe, but I don’t think that changing unload to be a condi skill so that P/P is also a condition set is a good idea.

Ok, why?

Do you prefer P/P as a poorly designed unusable set?

There’s only 3 directions they can go with it.
1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).
2) Change Pistol AA to a direct damage ability only when equipped with another pistol (or else it ruins P/D)
3) Change both the Pistol AA and Unload to be hybrid Condi/direct damage skills.

2 isn’t happening – it’s a major departure from how the class has been designed, and would be legitimately confusing for new players.
3 Has been an option forever, but they’ve never taken that route – with the popularity of Celestial amulet surging, I don’t see them going this route now when it might potentially be very powerful.

I prefer P/P being a good ranged option for single target fights in PvE than to being condition weaponset in PvP, when we already have another weaponset that fulfills that role just fine.

Ideally, I’d like to see the power-based damage of P/P strong enough to make it a more viable set to a power build, even if there’s a bleed on the auto attack.

Even if you made unload a condi skill, P/P would still be an absolutely terrible set in PvP, while becoming worse than the short bow for PvE ranged fights.

Making the damage type of attack skills to be consistent doesn’t make a weaponset suddenly viable or balanced.

I’m just going to quote myself from a couple posts up

evilapprentice.6379:

1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).

Even if they did give it a decent defense, you’re talking about killing the only decent single target ranged weaponset in PvE for a potential ranged condition weaponset that’s completely redundant with P/D.

And we already have a version of unload with condition damage. It’s called Sneak Attack

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

Maybe, but I don’t think that changing unload to be a condi skill so that P/P is also a condition set is a good idea.

Ok, why?

Do you prefer P/P as a poorly designed unusable set?

There’s only 3 directions they can go with it.
1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).
2) Change Pistol AA to a direct damage ability only when equipped with another pistol (or else it ruins P/D)
3) Change both the Pistol AA and Unload to be hybrid Condi/direct damage skills.

2 isn’t happening – it’s a major departure from how the class has been designed, and would be legitimately confusing for new players.
3 Has been an option forever, but they’ve never taken that route – with the popularity of Celestial amulet surging, I don’t see them going this route now when it might potentially be very powerful.

I prefer P/P being a good ranged option for single target fights in PvE than to being condition weaponset in PvP, when we already have another weaponset that fulfills that role just fine.

Ideally, I’d like to see the power-based damage of P/P strong enough to make it a more viable set to a power build, even if there’s a bleed on the auto attack.

Even if you made unload a condi skill, P/P would still be an absolutely terrible set in PvP, while becoming worse than the short bow for PvE ranged fights.

Making the damage type of attack skills to be consistent doesn’t make a weaponset suddenly viable or balanced.

I’m just going to quote myself from a couple posts up

evilapprentice.6379:

1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).

Even if they did give it a decent defense, you’re talking about killing the only decent single target ranged weaponset in PvE for a potential ranged condition weaponset that’s completely redundant with P/D.

And we already have a version of unload with condition damage. It’s called Sneak Attack

It’s not a decent ranged weaponset for PvE – it’s extremely poorly designed. Just because you got it to work doesn’t mean it’s decent – having one und only vone button to press to deal damage is absolutely awful from every conceivable perspective, even if you happen to enjoy it.

A weaponset shouldn’t remain horribly designed just because some people happen to enjoy it – if you enjoy ranged direct damage DPS, the game offers a number of classes that have it.

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

Maybe, but I don’t think that changing unload to be a condi skill so that P/P is also a condition set is a good idea.

Ok, why?

Do you prefer P/P as a poorly designed unusable set?

There’s only 3 directions they can go with it.
1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).
2) Change Pistol AA to a direct damage ability only when equipped with another pistol (or else it ruins P/D)
3) Change both the Pistol AA and Unload to be hybrid Condi/direct damage skills.

2 isn’t happening – it’s a major departure from how the class has been designed, and would be legitimately confusing for new players.
3 Has been an option forever, but they’ve never taken that route – with the popularity of Celestial amulet surging, I don’t see them going this route now when it might potentially be very powerful.

I prefer P/P being a good ranged option for single target fights in PvE than to being condition weaponset in PvP, when we already have another weaponset that fulfills that role just fine.

Ideally, I’d like to see the power-based damage of P/P strong enough to make it a more viable set to a power build, even if there’s a bleed on the auto attack.

Even if you made unload a condi skill, P/P would still be an absolutely terrible set in PvP, while becoming worse than the short bow for PvE ranged fights.

Making the damage type of attack skills to be consistent doesn’t make a weaponset suddenly viable or balanced.

I’m just going to quote myself from a couple posts up

evilapprentice.6379:

1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).

Even if they did give it a decent defense, you’re talking about killing the only decent single target ranged weaponset in PvE for a potential ranged condition weaponset that’s completely redundant with P/D.

And we already have a version of unload with condition damage. It’s called Sneak Attack

It’s not a decent ranged weaponset for PvE – it’s extremely poorly designed. Just because you got it to work doesn’t mean it’s decent – having one und only vone button to press to deal damage is absolutely awful from every conceivable perspective, even if you happen to enjoy it.

A weaponset shouldn’t remain horribly designed just because some people happen to enjoy it – if you enjoy ranged direct damage DPS, the game offers a number of classes that have it.

You’re changing the argument. I never stated that P/P was fun. I never stated that I like the design of pressing 1 button over and over to DPS. I stated that P/P is the one weapon that gives decent ranged DPS on single targets in PvE and that making it a condition weapon would leave thieves with no other decent options.

If you want to have a debate on how to make P/P more fun or how to make it a better power-based weapon set, go for it, but don’t quote me in your reply when you’re addressing a very separate issue.

edit
If it helps, I’ll clarify: When I say it’s a “decent” weapon set for ranged PvE, I’m talking strictly from a pragmatic perspective. The DPS it does is competitive for a ranged weapon in PvE. I am not weighing the fun factor of the weapon in this statement.

Dahkeus.8243:

…
You’re changing the argument. I never stated that P/P was fun. I never stated that I like the design of pressing 1 button over and over to DPS. I stated that P/P is the one weapon that gives decent ranged DPS on single targets in PvE and that making it a condition weapon would leave thieves with no other decent options.

If you want to have a debate on how to make P/P more fun or how to make it a better power-based weapon set, go for it, but don’t quote me in your reply when you’re addressing a very separate issue.

edit
If it helps, I’ll clarify: When I say it’s a “decent” weapon set for ranged PvE, I’m talking strictly from a pragmatic perspective. The DPS it does is competitive for a ranged weapon in PvE. I am not weighing the fun factor of the weapon in this statement.

I’m not changing the argument at all – Usable != Well designed.

My argument is that P/P is a very poorly designed weaponset. Just because you’ve found a way to make it work (by pressing 3 over and over again with high DD stats) doesn’t make it a well designed weaponset.

It doesn’t matter that thieves who want a single target direct damage ranged weapon set like it the way it is – the set should not remain poorly designed just because they like it that way. If they like ranged direct damage, they should choose a class with that as an option.

If the situation were reversed and P/P did insane Direct damage because it wasn’t designed to be used with High DD stats, we wouldn’t argue that it should remain so just because changing it might take away PvE thieves ability to do direct damage from range.

We could argue that the change is unfair (since people might have geared themselves specifically to use that set), but that’s a failure on Anets part – preventing the weaponset from being competently designed because they’ve ignored its issues for 2 years now isn’t a very sensible option either.

I’m not arguing that it’s well designed either!

I’m just saying that making it a condi weapon makes it worse, not better.

Dahkeus.8243:

I’m not arguing that it’s well designed either!

I’m just saying that making it a condi weapon makes it worse, not better.

You’re arguing its worse from the subjective viewpoint of thieves who want a ranged direct damage option.

I am arguing its better from the objective viewpoint that when a weaponset only has 2 damaging abilities, those abilities should have the same type of damage.

We’re unfortunately locked into “turn unload into condition based damage” rather than “Make vital shot do direct damage” because of P/D and the way thieves were designed from launch.

data.4093:

warriorjrd.8695:

That doesn’t defend what you’re trying to say, and if you’re still crying about the range nerf to SB, ranger SB got the same treatment. Why is it logical that you can attack enemies from stealth? I assume because you don’t want SB to reveal you, you also want every other attack to keep you in stealth and you only lose it when it runs out? Any attack by the player in stealth should reveal them, not that hard of a concept to grasp.

You aren’t listening. I’m saying the nerf is NOT about the skill, it’s about the class. You say attacks by a player in stealth should reveal them but have you even considered mesmer’s temporal curtain, swap or moa skills? None of them reveal the mesmer and they come directly from it. We’re not even talking about the phantasms here. I don’t own a ranger or engi but I’m sure they have skills which don’t reveal them either. What on earth did you think I was referring to?

I assume because you don’t want SB to reveal you, you also want every other attack to keep you in stealth and you only lose it when it runs out?

wat.

While I agree that the mesmer attacks should receive the same treatment, the only reason I can see why it’s like that is because those skills don’t deal direct damage, or damage over time. Ranger doesn’t have any skills that do damage that won’t reveal him, engi idk.

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’m not arguing that it’s well designed either!

I’m just saying that making it a condi weapon makes it worse, not better.

You’re arguing its worse from the subjective viewpoint of thieves who want a ranged direct damage option.

I am arguing its better from the objective viewpoint that when a weaponset only has 2 damaging abilities, those abilities should have the same type of damage.

We’re unfortunately locked into “turn unload into condition based damage” rather than “Make vital shot do direct damage” because of P/D and the way thieves were designed from launch.

Your argument of P/D being designed as a condition set since launch is what’s throwing off the rest of your logic. Torment didn’t exist at launch, so the only condition the original P/D set had access to was bleed. Even with Sneak Attack, it’s still extremely slow compared to other condition builds and really only got popular in the pre-torment era because of Wild Bill’s videos and how easy it is to use Cloak and Dagger to simply outlast your opponent no matter how long the fight went.

Meanwhile, P/P has Body Shot (vulnerability only at launch, immobilize added later), pure power damage in Unload, a daze, and a blind+smoke field for additional blinds. The dazes/blinds and the lack of… well, stealth skills…. suggest a less stealth-oriented playstyle (indirectly minimizing Sneak Attack use and bleed-stacking). Couple that with the fact that vulnerability only affects physical damage and that shortbow has access to more skills with damaging conditions (poison + bleed), it seems P/P was likely intended as a power set.

Of course, we’re probably putting way more thought into this than Anet ever did. It’s still a poorly designed weapon set no matter how you interpret its function.

You know, we could solve this with a trait.

Rupture Deadly arts, Grandmaster
When you apply bleed it is removed and you deal X damage to your target. This damage can not critically hit, but can be increased by boons and other attributes.

P/P problem solved, Deathblossom problem solved, caltrops usable by more specs, more interesting gearing options, etc. etc.

warriorjrd.8695:

data.4093:

warriorjrd.8695:

Tman.6349:

warriorjrd.8695:

data.4093:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What: “placed” AoE (i.e. Caltrops, Choking gas)
Why: Everything Thieves do must apply Revealed debuff, even if they fart in a crowded bus.

^ joke came true.

Yeah a 4sec poison field is definitely more powerful than a ranger pet, mesmer illusion or engi turret. >_>

Because any of those classes have as much stealth as a thief? Stealth is the thief’s mechanic, the other classes don’t have anywhere near as much in comparison.

When you consider that mesmers don’t get revealed when attacking from stealth, they can spend almost as much time per minute stealthed as a thief.. The other two don’t have the same access but that’s hardly valid when talking about ‘balancing’ a mechanic for one profession but not doing the same for others that use that very same mechanic. If stealth is going to reveal, it should ALWAYS do so.

The only reason this feels like a nerf more than a fix is because thief isn’t as AI reliant as the other classes you mentioned, but like I said, any AI the thief does actually have won’t reveal the player.

It is not a fix, it will never be a fix. It is another nerf to shortbow, on a 4 second poison field(lol). If we’re going to complain about attacks not forcing a player to leave stealth there are much more powerful things than a poison field. No one complains about shortbow but it is the most nerfed thief weapon set, all of the skills are nerfed. Even warrior longbow has a long way to go before it’s on par with the super duper overpowered thief shortbow.

That doesn’t defend what you’re trying to say, and if you’re still crying about the range nerf to SB, ranger SB got the same treatment. Why is it logical that you can attack enemies from stealth? I assume because you don’t want SB to reveal you, you also want every other attack to keep you in stealth and you only lose it when it runs out? Any attack by the player in stealth should reveal them, not that hard of a concept to grasp.

It was perfect logical sense that Choking Gas didn’t reveal you…it never did damage. All it did was give you a weak 3 second poison, something that could be prevented from getting worse or becoming a major nuisance simply by exiting the field, and was entirely negligible. That field really only shined when combined with Signet of Malice, and the Lotus Poison trait, and when facing 3+ enemies.

Even with those, it was maybe used in dungeons and WvW only, and in WvW you never used it outside of zerg warfare because it was a waste of initiative. The nerf is silly and unneeded.

PopeUrban.2578:

You know, we could solve this with a trait.

Rupture Deadly arts, Grandmaster
When you apply bleed it is removed and you deal X damage to your target. This damage can not critically hit, but can be increased by boons and other attributes.

P/P problem solved, Deathblossom problem solved, caltrops usable by more specs, more interesting gearing options, etc. etc.

An interesting idea, but I’m not sure I like the idea of locking weapons behind a GM trait (or any trait for that matter). Without this trait, P/P is still useless and D/D underpowered.

Perhaps they could both fix P/P and D/D and implement a trait like this.

It’d take some balance work, but there must exist a damage multiplier/condition duration/condition type combination that would allow death blossom/vital shot/Unload (assuming it was redesigned to do some sort of condition damage) to do respectable damage with any combination of power/crit/crit%/condition damage.
High power/crit builds could do slightly less up front damage than comparable skills, supplemented by a weak bleed. High condition damage specs would do good condition damage with weak direct damage, and hybrid specs might actually be viable.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’m not arguing that it’s well designed either!

I’m just saying that making it a condi weapon makes it worse, not better.

You’re arguing its worse from the subjective viewpoint of thieves who want a ranged direct damage option.

I am arguing its better from the objective viewpoint that when a weaponset only has 2 damaging abilities, those abilities should have the same type of damage.

We’re unfortunately locked into “turn unload into condition based damage” rather than “Make vital shot do direct damage” because of P/D and the way thieves were designed from launch.

Your argument of P/D being designed as a condition set since launch is what’s throwing off the rest of your logic. Torment didn’t exist at launch, so the only condition the original P/D set had access to was bleed. Even with Sneak Attack, it’s still extremely slow compared to other condition builds and really only got popular in the pre-torment era because of Wild Bill’s videos and how easy it is to use Cloak and Dagger to simply outlast your opponent no matter how long the fight went.

Meanwhile, P/P has Body Shot (vulnerability only at launch, immobilize added later), pure power damage in Unload, a daze, and a blind+smoke field for additional blinds. The dazes/blinds and the lack of… well, stealth skills…. suggest a less stealth-oriented playstyle (indirectly minimizing Sneak Attack use and bleed-stacking). Couple that with the fact that vulnerability only affects physical damage and that shortbow has access to more skills with damaging conditions (poison + bleed), it seems P/P was likely intended as a power set.

Of course, we’re probably putting way more thought into this than Anet ever did. It’s still a poorly designed weapon set no matter how you interpret its function.

“The way thieves were designed at launch” was a vague statement, my bad.

Not that I disagree with anything you’ve said, but Pistol has been an awful mess since its inception. If P/P was intended as a direct damage set, who in their right mind would make the AA and stealth attack condi based with awful direct damage scaling?

Regardless of how the set was originally designed, P/D is now a condition set, which unfortunately locks down P/P as well (unless they do something unprecedented and change AA/stealth attack based on Offhand weapon)

evilapprentice.6379:

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’m not arguing that it’s well designed either!

I’m just saying that making it a condi weapon makes it worse, not better.

You’re arguing its worse from the subjective viewpoint of thieves who want a ranged direct damage option.

I am arguing its better from the objective viewpoint that when a weaponset only has 2 damaging abilities, those abilities should have the same type of damage.

We’re unfortunately locked into “turn unload into condition based damage” rather than “Make vital shot do direct damage” because of P/D and the way thieves were designed from launch.

Your argument of P/D being designed as a condition set since launch is what’s throwing off the rest of your logic. Torment didn’t exist at launch, so the only condition the original P/D set had access to was bleed. Even with Sneak Attack, it’s still extremely slow compared to other condition builds and really only got popular in the pre-torment era because of Wild Bill’s videos and how easy it is to use Cloak and Dagger to simply outlast your opponent no matter how long the fight went.

Meanwhile, P/P has Body Shot (vulnerability only at launch, immobilize added later), pure power damage in Unload, a daze, and a blind+smoke field for additional blinds. The dazes/blinds and the lack of… well, stealth skills…. suggest a less stealth-oriented playstyle (indirectly minimizing Sneak Attack use and bleed-stacking). Couple that with the fact that vulnerability only affects physical damage and that shortbow has access to more skills with damaging conditions (poison + bleed), it seems P/P was likely intended as a power set.

Of course, we’re probably putting way more thought into this than Anet ever did. It’s still a poorly designed weapon set no matter how you interpret its function.

“The way thieves were designed at launch” was a vague statement, my bad.

Not that I disagree with anything you’ve said, but Pistol has been an awful mess since its inception. If P/P was intended as a direct damage set, who in their right mind would make the AA and stealth attack condi based with awful direct damage scaling?

Regardless of how the set was originally designed, P/D is now a condition set, which unfortunately locks down P/P as well (unless they do something unprecedented and change AA/stealth attack based on Offhand weapon)

I’d bet they just slapped the bleeds on there for bonus damage without really thinking about it. I don’t remember what the original stat prefixes were at launch, but these weapon sets were definitely not created with things like dire gear and the current clusterkittenery of sigils and runes in mind. Those alone make just about any build a good condi build, regardless of weapons (or no weapons lol).

PopeUrban.2578:

You know, we could solve this with a trait.

Rupture Deadly arts, Grandmaster
When you apply bleed it is removed and you deal X damage to your target. This damage can not critically hit, but can be increased by boons and other attributes.

P/P problem solved, Deathblossom problem solved, caltrops usable by more specs, more interesting gearing options, etc. etc.

spec into bleed damage anyway. watch as your enemy melts instantly.

your trait suggestion is “bleeds get all ticks instantly, can’t be cleansed”. have you seen the numbers on those bleeds? hell, death blossom would become a murder machine. caltrops would hit harder than necro wells.

BrunoBRS.5178:

PopeUrban.2578:

You know, we could solve this with a trait.

Rupture Deadly arts, Grandmaster
When you apply bleed it is removed and you deal X damage to your target. This damage can not critically hit, but can be increased by boons and other attributes.

P/P problem solved, Deathblossom problem solved, caltrops usable by more specs, more interesting gearing options, etc. etc.

spec into bleed damage anyway. watch as your enemy melts instantly.

your trait suggestion is “bleeds get all ticks instantly, can’t be cleansed”. have you seen the numbers on those bleeds? hell, death blossom would become a murder machine. caltrops would hit harder than necro wells.

He said “X Damage” not “The bleed’s total ticks in damage”.

p2 should just evade backwards like Charr’s Hidden Pistol and boom defense!

Still don’t know why they haven’t done such.

blakdoxa.7520:

p2 should just evade backwards like Charr’s Hidden Pistol and boom defense!

Still don’t know why they haven’t done such.

i don’t know, i like being able to immobilize on demand. and it doesn’t solve the autoattack problem (or pistol 5 being far more favorable for melee skirmishes)

BrunoBRS.5178:

blakdoxa.7520:

p2 should just evade backwards like Charr’s Hidden Pistol and boom defense!

Still don’t know why they haven’t done such.

i don’t know, i like being able to immobilize on demand. and it doesn’t solve the autoattack problem (or pistol 5 being far more favorable for melee skirmishes)

Something more like…

Body Shot
Immob 1 sec
evade 1/2 sec

Remove vulnerability because it wasn’t useful anyways. :S

AA? Maybe make it into a 2-chain skill that has some sort of extra effect.

what make me sad is that this change are not for today..let’s say september or even october…and then we will have to wait 6 month again to have another changes.

And the patch on thieves is ridiculous they changed allmost nothing (just destroyed even more thief in pve) ….

warriorjrd.8695:

While I agree that the mesmer attacks should receive the same treatment, the only reason I can see why it’s like that is because those skills don’t deal direct damage, or damage over time. Ranger doesn’t have any skills that do damage that won’t reveal him, engi idk.

Actually rangers have entangle. I don’t think the attack does any damage, only the roots. So there is no valid reasoning to this- even caltrops isn’t nerfed in the same way. People can stay in stealth and do way more damage with caltrops than SB 4.

data.4093:

warriorjrd.8695:

While I agree that the mesmer attacks should receive the same treatment, the only reason I can see why it’s like that is because those skills don’t deal direct damage, or damage over time. Ranger doesn’t have any skills that do damage that won’t reveal him, engi idk.

Actually rangers have entangle. I don’t think the attack does any damage, only the roots. So there is no valid reasoning to this- even caltrops isn’t nerfed in the same way. People can stay in stealth and do way more damage with caltrops than SB 4.

well caltrops can’t be reapplied infinitely. the person walks out of the caltrops and that’s that. but while you’re ticking for 400hps, the person is stuck poisoned, unable to heal properly and taking small damage ticks that keeps them stuck in combat.

then you’re full health, all cooldowns ready, and the person is not. it was a needed change.