Guild Wars 2

So I’ve tried several builds now trying to become at least mildly competent.. with little success. It’s not the builds, they are used by other players to pretty good success. It’s me.

Thief seems to be one of the classes where player skill has the most effect. And I’m inexperienced and not super-fast. I don’t have a good handle on how to use the skills in the right combos at the right times, so I end up being fairly ineffective, and I die quickly.

Anyone know if there are any good guides that include a build suitable for a newer player and also specific advice on how to use it? I don’t want to clone someone else’s build and playstyle entirely, but I need somewhere to start from or I’m just going to end up shelving this class.

Main interest eventually will be WvW roaming. I’m tinkering in PvP since it’s easy to change things around without having to buy a lot of new gear. Mostly been focusing on a D+D/SB combo since I’m somewhat familiar with it. I’ve tried D+P/D+D and D+P/P+D but they seem to require even more skill and timing.

Thanks!

hi esp in the beginning try out the passiv traits and stick to one weaponset till u got it and than move to another. the most sustain is hold by dire gear. u go d/p and d/d or sb. with the higher sustain u have a better Chance to leave fights if they are not in ur favour and u will get a good Timing for dagger offhand builds. u might watch some condi thief builds than, there`re enough out there. if u re more confident try out some power builds and go for dd or dp or even pp or sd or sp or sb/sb ;o) . good Thing on thief is, there`s a wide range of builds possible even support wise. hope the class will get u.

You might want to try to go to the extremes. Granted, you will die a lot, but you will learn faster, if the margin for error is smaller. At least for me, it helped a lot. Granted, I still run the build, cause I simply love it.
Just try full valkyrie 10-30-0-0-30. Without the training wheels, that is the shadow arts trait line and without the ability to reset fights on a whim by jumping through smoke fields.

setup:
1500 range, boon stripping, damage dealing, healing steal with a daze on a 21 second cd. That’s your main tool.
dagger/dagger. That’s the reason, you go for the 30 in critical strikes and get hidden killer.
basilisk venom, devourer venom: To make backstabbing easier. There will be situations where you bet your life on a single backstab, so make sure to make it count.
shadowstep: for obvious reasons
The rest is up to your personal preference. I typically switch between signet of shadows, scorpion wire, blinding powder, refuge and infiltrator’s signet. My heal is Hide in Shadows because I need the condition removal and an additional backstab enabler comes in handy.

I stress it again, this build is suicidal, if you are not totally confident in your skills, but it can pull off miracles. That and it’s fun to stun a guardian right through their stability and daze them for ~5 seconds total with the stolen mace.

Qaelyn.7612:

Thief seems to be one of the classes where player skill has the most effect. And I’m inexperienced and not super-fast. I don’t have a good handle on how to use the skills in the right combos at the right times, so I end up being fairly ineffective, and I die quickly.

It’s actually more deeper than that.

When playing a Thief, timing is everything because you don’t want to be wasting precious resources — initiatives and cooldowns will cost you a lot when you fail to manage them compare to other professions that only manages one resources instead of two.

You need to do some basic Math when playing a Thief. If you see a Warrior, how much damage do you think you can deal before your initiatives are tapped out? So you start with basic addition and subtraction trying to manage your initiatives. If you are using D/D, when you use CnD, how long will it take to get those initiatives back?

Once you wrapped your mind around those, then you can work on your play style then build your gears around it. Without the basic understanding on how Thieves works, being “super fast” can only mean that you are going to die fast because you are spending initiative faster than you are gaining it back.

Then you need to think about your exit strategy when your plan fails before you think about your engagement strategy. An example of an engagement combo, using D/D, I love opening with CnD->Steal->Backstab. Although this requires timing, you don’t have to be supper fast.

Anyone know if there are any good guides that include a build suitable for a newer player and also specific advice on how to use it? I don’t want to clone someone else’s build and playstyle entirely, but I need somewhere to start from or I’m just going to end up shelving this class.

Here’s a good place to start: Guide to Thief Guides

Main interest eventually will be WvW roaming. I’m tinkering in PvP since it’s easy to change things around without having to buy a lot of new gear. Mostly been focusing on a D+D/SB combo since I’m somewhat familiar with it. I’ve tried D+P/D+D and D+P/P+D but they seem to require even more skill and timing.

Keep in mind that some skills function very differently in the Mist. It’s a great place to plan your build, but not to flesh out your play style. WvW is very different mainly because of the stats on the gears. So plan out in the Mist, but practice in the Borderlands.

Thanks!

You are welcome, just ask away.

You’ve started with D/D & SB, and that is a terrific build for a WvW roamer. It has tremendous overland speed (heartseeker covers a lot of ground), and it can certainly kill things. 30 in Criticals and 30 in Shadow Arts are pretty standard for the WvW variant. The other 10 can be useful in any of the other lines — it’s preference.

Watch some of Yishi’s vids to see how the build is played. Be aware, this shows the upper limits of the build. You don’t need this guy’s ludicrous levels of situational awareness and experience to do well, but you can learn a lot from his vids because he talks you through his thinking. Here’s one..

I favor Valkyrie armor, with some mix of berserker trinkets/ weapons. For a build with Hidden Killer, you can afford to drop some precision in exchange for vitality.

If you want a build with an easier learning curve, look at a P/D condition build. That does not translate well to group PvE, but it’s effective in WvW. Google up some Laela Blackbird vids to see how that plays.

Hello, I admire people that play thief for pve and wvw. Playing a thief is no easy task.

Often times you forget that you are leaf that easily gets burn pretty fast by other classes.

You must have a mind set of a tricky kitten a “Taffer” so to speak. You move in combat with tactics, play with your opponent, lure them to use their skills. These are trait that a player must have for deadly take down.

There be a moments of knowing when to be aggressive and when not to be. You’re freedom is in stealth, master that then you can master other classes weaknesses.

Do not follow what is easy , instead follow a steep path that can give you a big learning curve. The real challenge is being aesthetic to your thief, to be true to it.

Finally, use your environment, hills, mobs and any thing that can be cloak and dagger by.

And remember, spam skill #2 all day every day. peace!

- DR, SOhai.

Thanks for the replies.

I’ve read all the stickies here, watched Yishis’ videos, etc. etc.. so I’m not just being lazy. I just.. don’t get it. I watched part of the Laela Blackbird video and to me it might as well be a video of a surgeon doing a heart transplant.

The build though is interesting, it seems to be defensive in nature, which I haven’t tried before. Or at least, all that dire gear suggests so. I think dire gear comes from dungeons so that’s not something I can really do anyway, at least not yet.

naphack, I’ve tried that sort of build but I just can’t hit the right buttons in the right order fast enough. Always end up dead in under 30 seconds.

Maybe thief just isn’t for me. Which would be unfortunate as I love the class.

Meh, I just tried some quick variation on the Blackbird build in PvP. I have no idea what I am doing, I end up just mashing buttons. Ech.

The best way to get it down is just run around playing, obviously. All I can do is give you a process to expedite the learning curve. Running a 10/30/30/0/0 (more survivable) build or a 25/30/0/0/15 (high damage) is also a decent build to start with. I actually have gone back to the latter. Also, using two signets and the 3 second stealth w/ Signet of Malice is a very easy layout to run in WvW.
Once you get a hand of that, take off a signet and replace it with shadow step or the roll skill. Both are very effective when used right. Basilisk Venom is very effective when roaming. FREE KILLS!

The best way to get it down is just run around playing, obviously. All I can do is give you a process to expedite the learning curve. Running a 10/30/30/0/0 (more survivable) build or a 25/30/0/0/15 (high damage) is also a decent build to start with. I actually have gone back to the latter. Also, using two signets and the 3 second stealth w/ Signet of Malice is a very easy layout to run in WvW.
Once you get a hand of that, take off a signet and replace it with shadow step or the roll skill. Both are very effective when used right. Basilisk Venom is very effective when roaming. FREE KILLS!

While all of what I’m seeing is definitely constructive, if your problem is speed make sure to bind your keys to something that will be easy for you to play, yet more effective than the default if you have not yet already.

I only changed a few keys around and it has worked wonders, namely switching Steal to the R key because using it quickly after 5 is essential in running any d/d build if you’re trying to stealth as you use Steal (minus traiting for stealth on steal). Another thing a lot of people do is bind Shadowstep and other ground target skills to mouse buttons for a more fluid escape.

Just an idea, keep practicing and using your resources (Youtube is excellent) to learn the tricks of the trade.

I’ve had the same issue as you do with almost all games. I remember how terrible I was with my rogue on WoW. However after a few weeks of failing I eventually started tearing all classes to shreds to a point that horde didn’t bother coming to Tol Barad anymore because of me. Same with the thief class here. I’m reasonably new to the game and finally I’m starting to notice a rapid improvement in my abilities.

Irrespective of build or gear, you will get better in time as you find yourself more comfortable with your class and learn how to deal with other classes.

This video helped me quite a lot too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUmrfBr1R5s

Thanks for all the replies. Some very good tips and ideas in there.

I realize that this is mostly going to be a matter of requiring a lot of practice. It’s just rather.. daunting. I keep swapping builds around hoping I can find something that will suit my playstyle, but I find the class incredibly unforgiving due to its combination of melee orientation, low health and lack of summons.

I did find through experimentation that I like S/D. The “step in step out” capability on sword #2 seems a powerful combination of offense and defense. My problem is figuring out what to actually do when I “step in”, and not taking so much damage that I “step out” and then am left wondering wht to do next.

I find in most fights that I’m almost immediately on the defensive, running around trying to keep from dying. Yet it seems a thief on the defensive is pretty much toast anyway.

Qaelyn.7612:

I did find through experimentation that I like S/D. The “step in step out” capability on sword #2 seems a powerful combination of offense and defense. My problem is figuring out what to actually do when I “step in”, and not taking so much damage that I “step out” and then am left wondering wht to do next.

I wouldn’t get too attached to that playstyle if I was you.

I just rewatched the most recent Yishis video and noticed a couple of things.

1. He never switched weapons once. It was D/D the whole time, and nearly everything he does is CnD, HS, steal and utilities. This is a good lesson for me because one of the ways I get messed up is constantly swapping weapons and then hitting the wrong buttons.

2. He knows every class inside-out. I think this is where my skill gap comes into play — I’ve only played a mesmer, thief and warrior and understand very little about the other 5 classes. Thief doesn’t seem to tolerate that level of ignorance as much as some other professions do.

The guy is a god. He should offer tutoring services for gold or something.

Switch, I don’t think the pending change to sword #2 will have a big impact on the build I’m using, at least according to the (very experienced) player who suggested it to me.

Qaelyn.7612:

… My problem is figuring out what to actually do when I “step in”, and not taking so much damage that I “step out” and then am left wondering wht to do next.

Cloak and Dagger, then move behind them and stun them
Just start whacking them, you’ll learn what works and what not, and when to get out again.

Big part of thief is knowing when to get out. They got that aspect of the archetype correct.

I find in most fights that I’m almost immediately on the defensive, running around trying to keep from dying. Yet it seems a thief on the defensive is pretty much toast anyway.

Indeed, he is. An opponent on the run is like an adrenaline rush, for them as much as for you. Either really get out (shadow step, blinding powder shadow refuge) or pretend you’re the one who’s winning and they’d better get more defensive

When new people ask me “what thief build should I roll?” I always point them to P/D

P/D is a good beginner thief build (and the build I started with) because it has a very straightforward attack rotation, doesn’t worry a whole lot about initiative starvation, and succeeds or fails based on the positioning and timing of a single skill (CnD)

P/D is pretty bunkery and does a great job of distilling what’s important about playing thief down to the basics. It’s a one trick pony, but it’s a one trick pony that will teach you the importance of skill timing and managing adrenaline, which are the two defining attributes that good theif players have, and bad ones don’t.

Most people, once they get the hang of P/D graduate to something a little harder to play after they’ve used P/D to learn to count revealed timers in their own head, played around with some combo effects, and been forced to kick their own skill level up a bit by having had some tough PvP or boss fights with it. After a while, P/D starts to feel “simple” and that’s about the point where you’ve become aware enough of the core strengths and weaknesses of the build that you will be comfortable taking a few lumps while learning another build, because you’ve learned what makes thieves tick, without having to learn the intircate nature of a lot of other stuff at the same time.

Thanks for the further replies.

I’ve decided part of the problem is that I’m experimenting in PvP, where I’m facing often very experienced players while I don’t even know what I’m doing in a general sense. So they demolish me in seconds while I fumble about trying to figure out what key to press.

I’m back in PvE now, to at least get a proper feel for the skills I’m going to use. I’m trying to play in PvE as if I were in WvW or PvP though, so I’ve shelved the shortbow and I’m trying to use stealth and pretend that the enemies are a lot tougher than they really are. When I can take down a high-level vet without being in any serious danger, I’ll go back to PvP…

I’ve been currently on DD+SD with currently a 30/30/0/0/0 build.. pretty aggressive. (I’m not level 80 yet.)

PopeUrban, got a particular build I could reference? Thanks.

Okay so here’s what I don’t get about DD+PD. PD’s auto-attack is ranged but its #3 is melee and then ranged. If I start in DD I can melee, then use PD get out of melee if things get too hot.. but then the opponent closes to melee and I can’t switch back to DD. If I start in PD, I don’t know how to make good use of Shadow Strike.

There’s an awesome video by Coloxus that shows a lot of small tricks with thief that make a big difference, particularly in PvP. Knowing stuff like this will make a big difference in your overall performance.

Qaelyn.7612:

Okay so here’s what I don’t get about DD+PD. PD’s auto-attack is ranged but its #3 is melee and then ranged. If I start in DD I can melee, then use PD get out of melee if things get too hot.. but then the opponent closes to melee and I can’t switch back to DD. If I start in PD, I don’t know how to make good use of Shadow Strike.

In a PvP setting, there’s really no good reason right now to be in D/D if you’re doing conditions, and the same goes for P/D if you’re doing power. If you’re still looking at the build I linked for you in the other thread, I included D/D because it’s applicable in PvE, as Death Blossom is a pretty good PvE skill. It’s not so useful in PvP.

Just stay in P/D. Get in close, get out. Despite being “ranged”, P/D playstyle is a close-medium ranged style since if you don’t use Shadow Strike, you don’t do enough damage to kill someone. Stay close, but not so close when you’re not using Shadow Strike so that they have a hard time hitting you.

Popeurban makes an excellent point, that P/D is easier to learn. You needn’t worry about positional requirements nearly as much.

For any dagger offhand build, learning to time ‘revealed’ is critical. I do that through sound. Both Dagger and Pistol mainhand attacks have a rhythm coming out of stealth that you can time without having to watch your buff bar. It’s been a bit since I played P/D, but I recall the sound of the ‘1’ attack from stealth was, “BOOMBOOMBOOM, boom, boom, boom.” On that final ‘boom’ from autoattack, I want to have CnD started and be in, or on my way to melee range. Dagger mainhand has a similar pattern.

Qae, on your specific question above, I’d stick in P/D when they close, if it’s a single target. If CnD is ready, hit them with it. If you’re still revealed, dodge roll. I don’t think you gain a lot against a single foe by switching to D/D for deathblossom.

Qaelyn.7612:

Okay so here’s what I don’t get about DD+PD. PD’s auto-attack is ranged but its #3 is melee and then ranged. If I start in DD I can melee, then use PD get out of melee if things get too hot.. but then the opponent closes to melee and I can’t switch back to DD. If I start in PD, I don’t know how to make good use of Shadow Strike.

Put a sigil of geomancy into your dd set.
If your enemy closes in, you use #3 to take distance, if he keeps pushing in on you, you swap to dd, triggering bleeds and death blossom right through him to mess up his sense of direction. Just remember to either turn around and face him asap or dodge roll out afterwards, because you don’t want to turn your back to a potential immobilize.
DD acts as some sort of of buffer against the type of melee, which can’t be kept at a distance with P/D only. You can use Death Blossom to dodge hits, while in turn stacking those long duration bleeds. Just remember to CND and swap back to PD at some point.

Thanks.

I was just tinkering with PD+DP and PD+DD. I like the symmetry of PD+DP, but I need to get the timing right, it’s somewhat unintuitive in that you want to use #3 in each case after switching sets, not before. I think I like PD+DD better, but that might be just because I am more familiar with DD.

PD seems condition-heavy. I bought a set of dire armor which seems to do decent damage but it still takes a long time for mobs to die. I was sort of following the Laela Blackbird build, adjusted a bit. I guess it’s just a defensive build in general?

A 0-20-30-20-0 build is good for dagger main and allows a little more room for error in initiative expenditures for a new thief.

edit: forgot to put in last trait line (OCD stuff)

Okay I think I’m making myself go in circles with trying too many things.

The condition build doesn’t work for me. I’m sure it’s effective but it doesn’t “feel like a thief” to me.. too much dodging and kiting. Even if I die all the time I’d rather use stealth and backstab.

I think I want to stick with DD as primary toolset. PD looks useful as a mobility supplement and for kiting mobs or hitting from a distance.

So assuming I want to go DD+PD, what traits do I want? For an aggressive build, but a bit of toughness or other defense would be nice.

What types of gear should I use? Approximately, don’t need every piece spelled out. Just go with berserker and hope for the best?

Thanks.

Qaelyn.7612:

Okay I think I’m making myself go in circles with trying too many things.

The condition build doesn’t work for me. I’m sure it’s effective but it doesn’t “feel like a thief” to me.. too much dodging and kiting. Even if I die all the time I’d rather use stealth and backstab.

I think I want to stick with DD as primary toolset. PD looks useful as a mobility supplement and for kiting mobs or hitting from a distance.

So assuming I want to go DD+PD, what traits do I want? For an aggressive build, but a bit of toughness or other defense would be nice.

What types of gear should I use? Approximately, don’t need every piece spelled out. Just go with berserker and hope for the best?

Thanks.

Are you talking WvW? If so, a good rule of thumb is to get full Valkyrie for armor then get full berserker on trinkets. Yishis has a pretty good D/D WvW build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQNAoYVlUmiP3eS6E+5Ex2jd2Tiy9woJtpdFiKA-jUDB4fAYLLaksYIaUBgJPQpPEZslhFRjVXDT5SIS7CWFD1gjRr2mDQIABbBA-w

Here’s his latest video that shows how he uses it. Check out the ‘about’ section for some good additional info:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Lh8Oogl6Y

Thanks. I’ve tinkered with Yishis’s build. I think it’s too high-level for me, I can’t make good use of his trait and skill selections. Plus it’s DD+SB not DD+PD.

Power as main stat on all, add Toughness and Vitality on all armor and backpices, or at least the larger armor pieces (chest, leggings and boots). Berserker for all trinkets (ad jewels). Berserker weapons.
30 in Critical Strikes, the rest in Shadow Arts and Acrobatics. Or No Shadow Arts but Deadly arts for Mug combined with Trickery for some Steal support.
Yields decent power, critical hits and some survivability from the soldiers pieces. Hits hard enough with shortbow (you’ll like it), dagger, sword and even dual pistols.

Thanks.

I’m actually playing with Yishis’s build after all and starting to get used to it. I do want to do WvW after all, and it’s the style I like with lots of stealth and backstab.

It seems to work pretty nicely in PvE as well. I’ve shelved the pistols for now as trying to reconcile the power-based damage of DD with the condition-based of PD was driving me nuts. The bow seems nice in PvE as well.

I’m 75 now so going to rush to 80 and then work on the gear again…

If you are going to use Yishis D/D build that I think you are on about the one in the latest Outnumbered video be very careful around Classes with heavy Condition pressure as he has very little removal, I would even suggest considering changing to “Remove Condition on Stealth” trait. If you choose not to however just be very aware of who you are fighting if you see a Necromancer for example tread carefully you can’t afford to take all those Condi’s.

Funny ChapDev as I was going to ask where the condition removal was in that build because I didn’t see any. I guess he’s just so good he knows how much damage he can take and when to disengage etc.

I took the Yishis D/D build into PvP to duel with a friend just now, the one with the axe warrior. Ugh, it was awful. I was better at not immediately dying, at least most of the time. But he still thrashed me pretty soundly. The best I got was forcing him to heal.. that’s it.

I think if I met him in a dark alley (so to speak) I could probably harrass him and live long enough to get away. But I could never beat him. The problem is that when I move in to backstab, I often miss. Even if I hit, I don’t do a ton of damage, and then his damage utterly destroys me.

I realize warriors are OP in general and so this is something of a torture test for a thief (and a bad one at that). But how in general do you deal with the heavy melee output? In particular he was using axe #5 to obliterate me. Sure, I can shadowstep out, but axe #5 has a 20s cooldown and shadowstep has a 50s cooldown. So after a half minute or so I am usually with everything on cooldown and then I die.

I also had a theory that his build may not translate into PvP because of the lower damage figures. It seems to rely on quick bursts of heavy damage to take players down, with crits of several K. I can’t get that even with a berserker’s amulet because there are no stats on the other gear in PvP. Is this an accurate assessment?

Qaelyn.7612:

Funny ChapDev as I was going to ask where the condition removal was in that build because I didn’t see any. I guess he’s just so good he knows how much damage he can take and when to disengage etc.

I took the Yishis D/D build into PvP to duel with a friend just now, the one with the axe warrior. Ugh, it was awful. I was better at not immediately dying, at least most of the time. But he still thrashed me pretty soundly. The best I got was forcing him to heal.. that’s it.

I think if I met him in a dark alley (so to speak) I could probably harrass him and live long enough to get away. But I could never beat him. The problem is that when I move in to backstab, I often miss. Even if I hit, I don’t do a ton of damage, and then his damage utterly destroys me.

I realize warriors are OP in general and so this is something of a torture test for a thief (and a bad one at that). But how in general do you deal with the heavy melee output? In particular he was using axe #5 to obliterate me. Sure, I can shadowstep out, but axe #5 has a 20s cooldown and shadowstep has a 50s cooldown. So after a half minute or so I am usually with everything on cooldown and then I die.

I also had a theory that his build may not translate into PvP because of the lower damage figures. It seems to rely on quick bursts of heavy damage to take players down, with crits of several K. I can’t get that even with a berserker’s amulet because there are no stats on the other gear in PvP. Is this an accurate assessment?

You are correct, backstab doesn’t really work that well in PvP. Direct damage is significantly lower there, while defenses are not. It works much better in WvW.

To combat melee, I’d take the blind on stealth trait. I run blind on stealth + condition removal on stealth. Blind on stealth is extremely powerful, and I don’t really feel the need for Infusion of Shadow. It’s up to you, though. I’d take condition removal on stealth over blind on stealth if need Infusion of Shadow, though. The condition removal is almost required in this condition meta.

All these posts are a goldmine on thief gameplay….and people complain thieves are unskilled OP mash button winners….(not trying to derail, just ignore this. I’m just musing here~)

Keep the info coming. I’m taking notes. :p

Thanks Shadow.

It’s funny because his build has blind-on-stealth but I think I took it off in favor of condition removal because he had none at all. But now I see the value of it.

There’s also stealth-on-steal which I found helped as I could open with a steal+backstab. But it just doesn’t do enough damage to be effective.

Anyone know of a good PvP-specific build? Though I guess that won’t help me with my ultimate goal of a good WvW harrassment thief.

Be aware that a good build in WvW is not the same as a good build in sPvP. For example, Yishis’ build is hands down one of the best for WvW, but he even admits that it’s really badly designed for sPvP.

In sPvP, D/P builds overall tend to do better than D/D builds largely because the blind field performs so well with small scale environments and team fights.

Currently, the top tournament thief builds are either the S/D evade spam build (most popular atm, but will be nerfed kitten Dec 10th) or the D/P glass burst build (has two variants and will be buffed Dec 10th. Below are links to each of the builds:

S/D evade spam – http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-cF3F3;0Vwk0-J5JOFd0;9;49T-T-2;027A;128B;1UNk65;1KJG4KJG45Bv

D/P Burst Deadly Arts Variant – http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c3RV;1RwV0-6-FOFd0;9;4OT;0E28-07A;43;05BW4;2G3G3G3G35Bn

D/P Burst Trickery Variant – http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c3RV;1RwV0-6-FOFd0;9;49T;0T2;007A;436B5BW4;2G3G3G3G35Bb

It’s worth noting that the 25/30/0/0/15 is also your highest dps build in PvE if you use D/D instead of D/P.

Thanks, that’s useful stuff.

I don’t really have the skills yet for thief in PvP, was using it mostly to test builds I hope to use in WvW, and I get the caveats.

The problem for me with Yishis’s build is that, bluntly, I’m not good enough to make it work. I don’t have the reflexes and coordination, and don’t know enough about other characters’ strengths and weaknesses yet. I might try going back to the condition build, though I will need to get some better gear to make that work.

D/P is better than D/D. I think Yishis just likes D/D better which is why he uses it. He sacrifices damage for more HP though with his armor stats. A D/P in the current game can run full berserkers and do just as well as Yishis and hit harder with condi removal because the blinds come from the weaponset.

D/P has a much higher skill cap though. You can do well with it as a noob, but to do extremely well with it requires a lot of practice because you have 5 viable skills vs. 2-3 from D/D.

Qaelyn.7612:

Thanks, that’s useful stuff.

I don’t really have the skills yet for thief in PvP, was using it mostly to test builds I hope to use in WvW, and I get the caveats.

The problem for me with Yishis’s build is that, bluntly, I’m not good enough to make it work. I don’t have the reflexes and coordination, and don’t know enough about other characters’ strengths and weaknesses yet. I might try going back to the condition build, though I will need to get some better gear to make that work.

Asking people about information on their class can help understand them better. About weapon swapping, the thing you have to realize is that initiative gives you a false sense of freedom. You’ll get so happy and excited that you can do what you want when you want, then find yourself out. Also, unless traited, you’ll get zero initiated back on weapon swapping while other classes get to shed CD’s. Every thief goes into combat with a weapon set and only swaps if the situation calls for it. Most thieves use the same weapon for the whole battle because of the intiative conundrum. For example:
I personally play DD with SB off-hand mostly. If I’m fighting a warrior and notice that he does a number on me on the melee front, that’s when I can switch to SB and take the battle from a ranged perspective. However if the warrior does some hits my thief can actually withstand, I’ll be staying with DD for the whole fight.

Knowing the other class is crucial as well. The prime example for anyone, not just thieves, is mesmer. Everyone remembers their first encounter with a mesmer…good times..good times. I used to be scared of them to the point of flat out avoiding them. But when you realize that the true player is the one who gets chaos armor, evades, moves erratically, moves backwards. Then The clones become a nuisance rather than a distraction. But for a thief, they can be used as a tool. Thieves can turn other class’
mechanics against them. Rangers, necromancers and yes mesmers give you more targets to Cloak and Dagger off of (engineers too with their turrets but it is ill-advised to take on an engi in his turret field)

As for Sword 2, you’ll use it to close a gap between you and a person and start attacking them. Only return when you feel as though you are in trouble or when you predict you enemy is going to deal a massive amount of damage shortly. But as many have said, it takes practice to acquire.

I think the take home thing I want to bring here is that at the current point in time, the thief, while fast, isn’t as fast as it used to be in terms of killing speed. We’ve been falsely advertised for awhile now, so don’t gear up for WvW to do those classic 3 hitter quitter builds. Most classes have a very reliable counter to being bursted so choose a build that does decent damage but offers survivability such as the popular x/30/30/x/x build. If you plan on getting in and killing quickly, it will rarely happen. Take for instance necromancers (here is another example of learning other classes), Necromancers are notorious for simply not dying. You can bet that if you blow all utilities and skills on a simply “opening attack” the necromancer will simply deathshroud, heal and fight you at near full capacity while you are there with nothing to fight with. The thief takes practice and effort to use. Not even being egotistic, it definitely is one of the hardest classes to become respected with, let alone master. Don’t be discouraged if you lose. Pick up your daggers, bow or sword whatever you use, dust it off, pull your hood back up. Figure out what went wrong: Did you evade too late, misuse a skill, or was the match up a destined failure to begin with? Some class builds simply cannot be beaten by a certain thief build of the same or less skill level player wise, plain and simple. You can’t win them all, but you can sure as hell try. If you have questions on a specific build then ask away. And if they laugh at you when you’re defeated, laugh back, assuming you did everything right, you should be in possession of at least their car keys.

Qaelyn.7612:

Thanks, that’s useful stuff.

I don’t really have the skills yet for thief in PvP, was using it mostly to test builds I hope to use in WvW, and I get the caveats.

The problem for me with Yishis’s build is that, bluntly, I’m not good enough to make it work. I don’t have the reflexes and coordination, and don’t know enough about other characters’ strengths and weaknesses yet. I might try going back to the condition build, though I will need to get some better gear to make that work.

If you do try a D/P build, you may want something with a deep investment in Shadow Arts as it’s generally more forgiving than a glass burst build. Tessa Avery has a good guide on the GuildWars2Guru.com forums:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/82333-tessa-averys-daggerpistol-shadow-burst-builds/

Just be aware that this build will be nerfed a bit on Dec 10th.

Shadows Arts builds are generally a bit more forgiving since they give you much more survivability. However, Dagger/Pistol can still be a bit strange to get used to since stealthing with it isn’t as straight forward as something like a D/D build. However, it can make surviving against melee specs a lot easier through the blind field.

Also, one tip I would give for anyone who is new to thief PvP is to not underestimate the short bow. A lot of people generally picture thieves as melee characters that pop out of stealth, but good utilization of the short bow is huge for so many fights. It should also be your main weapon for most big team fights since a squishy thief diving into a fight full of AoE is a recipe for failure. Tessa gives some good advice in short bow use in the guide above as well as in this S/D guide. Both are worth reading through briefly, even if you don’t end up using the spec.

swinsk.6410:

D/P is better than D/D. I think Yishis just likes D/D better which is why he uses it. He sacrifices damage for more HP though with his armor stats. A D/P in the current game can run full berserkers and do just as well as Yishis and hit harder with condi removal because the blinds come from the weaponset.

D/P has a much higher skill cap though. You can do well with it as a noob, but to do extremely well with it requires a lot of practice because you have 5 viable skills vs. 2-3 from D/D.

As a dueling spec, D/P is stronger than D/D, and is actually almost a direct counter to D/D due to blind spam. However, in group play it’s not as viable. It’s slower and relies on a stealth field, rather than stealth wherever you have a target. On top of that, it does a bit less spike damage so it’s less useful for taking out big targets quickly.

When things get confusing, it’s safer, but not as effective mainly because your Backstab is not as quick. CnD → Backstab is faster than Black Powder → Heartseeker → Backstab.

Also, with D/D, the only skill that doesn’t really have a place is Death Blossom. Cripple is very useful.

So it’s preference and philosophy of use, rather than “better” or “worse”. If you’re looking to duel, D/P is the stronger set. If you’re looking for overall effectiveness, D/D is stronger in my opinion.

Qaelyn.7612:

Thanks, that’s useful stuff.

I don’t really have the skills yet for thief in PvP, was using it mostly to test builds I hope to use in WvW, and I get the caveats.

The problem for me with Yishis’s build is that, bluntly, I’m not good enough to make it work. I don’t have the reflexes and coordination, and don’t know enough about other characters’ strengths and weaknesses yet. I might try going back to the condition build, though I will need to get some better gear to make that work.

To be honest, when it comes to Thieves, you really ought to find your own build and simply use Yishi’s build as a reference.

When you take up a build, feel free to tweak it to make it work for you. For example, if your opponent is coming up too fast for you, you can pick up on Caltrops. You don’t have to be Condition Damage build to use it.

However, you need to understand the basic first and foremost.

To do this is to reset your traits and pick up a weapon set. Get familiar with every set then pick your favorite. Stick with that weapon set, meaning you have to live and die with that weapon set. Dying actually teach you a lot about the weapon set so do take mental notes, then you can make adjustments to minimize the chances of dying.

Once you get familiar with a weapon set, it’s time to pick some gears and review your mental notes. How did you die?

Taking too much damage? Then take more toughness.
Taking too much Condition Damage? Take more vitality.
Not dealing enough damage? Maybe some Power.

Afterwards, test drive your gears (remember, keep your traits at zero) and see if there’s some improvements in your survivability. Then pick your Runes and Sigils using your mental notes as reference on what your play style needs.

Only after all those that you should worry about your traits, utilities, and elite.

Sounds familiar?

Of course it is, that’s the method on learning the profession while leveling up. It is proven effective and important. If you skip all these, then you’ll really going to have a hard time finding your Thief’s identity.

You admit it yourself that you don’t have the reflexes and the coordination, that’s only true only because you skip on all the basics. In martial arts for example, the masters will never teach you combat techniques until to master the basics — for playing Thieves, it’s the same concept.

Well I’ve certainly done a lot of dying.

I appreciate the advice and know it’s true in a general sense. I ask a lot about builds because this is difficult enough without adding poor build choices into the mix. I also don’t have unlimited funds to keep buying and salvaging gear.

I generally use the approach you mentioned in MMOs, but with thief I’ve been lagging so far behind in terms of both killing and surviving that I’ve felt I needed more help. It’s not from a lack of effort, and I really haven’t skipped the basics. I’m just.. not very good at it.

Qaelyn.7612:

Well I’ve certainly done a lot of dying.

I appreciate the advice and know it’s true in a general sense. I ask a lot about builds because this is difficult enough without adding poor build choices into the mix. I also don’t have unlimited funds to keep buying and salvaging gear.

I generally use the approach you mentioned in MMOs, but with thief I’ve been lagging so far behind in terms of both killing and surviving that I’ve felt I needed more help. It’s not from a lack of effort, and I really haven’t skipped the basics. I’m just.. not very good at it.

That’s why my suggestion is for you identify the play style that you’re good at by starting from the very beginning, just like singing. If a rapper gave you a lyrics that you need to sing at 100 words per second, or Celine Dion gave you the lyrics to “My heart will go on,” don’t you think that those songs maybe not your style? And if it is, don’t you think that it takes practice to perfect the song?

You may not be good at it now but given time even a seed will grow up to be a tree.

why not stream some gameplay and we can (hopefully) tell you what it is you’re lacking.

then again, I don’t really roam on my thief in WvW anymore because I don’t feel like my thief is that good of a roaming class anymore…I don’t necessarily see the fixation on roaming with a thief tbh.

Even in PvP people will tell you the thief is just there to decap becuz of the good mobility and it can’t even be expected to win all of its 1v1s.

I don’t want to roam on my thief unless I can win practically all of my 1v1s (i actually felt like so at one point and when I lost I felt like I got outplayed. Now if I lose I may not get the feeling of being outplayed anymore becuz the class isn’t in a good position), and right now I just don’t have this confidence so it’s a waste of time to me.

Qaelyn.7612:

Well I’ve certainly done a lot of dying.

I appreciate the advice and know it’s true in a general sense. I ask a lot about builds because this is difficult enough without adding poor build choices into the mix. I also don’t have unlimited funds to keep buying and salvaging gear.

I generally use the approach you mentioned in MMOs, but with thief I’ve been lagging so far behind in terms of both killing and surviving that I’ve felt I needed more help. It’s not from a lack of effort, and I really haven’t skipped the basics. I’m just.. not very good at it.

It takes a lot of time, so be patient and don’t give up. Personally, I tried a lot of the popular meta builds early on and gave up on them because I wasn’t able to utilize them well enough and died a lot. However, I abandoned the glassy meta builds and just found something that matched what I needed better and was able to stay on my feet. Once I got used to playing with a build like that and got more accustomed to the different weaponsets, I revisited the meta builds I had tried earlier and noticed a night and day difference.

Don’t be afraid to take a more defensive amulet/gearset early on and don’t be afraid to try a more defensive build. Play like that for a while and gradually adapt or move to different builds as you feel comfortable. While the thief class doesn’t juggle a ton of abilities like an engi or ele, it is still a tough class to play since it’s very squishy and has very little passive defense. Other classes can absorb hits and shrug off conditions a lot easier, so don’t worry if you spend a lot of time with your face on the ground.

The more you play, the more natural everything will feel. Before you know it, you’ll be able to perfectly time your stealths, dodge incoming stuns, and dive in and out of combat exactly when you need to.

Thanks for some sound advice and encouragement!

I tend to be an experimenter by nature and so I try something and if it seems like it’s not good I start tinkering or want to try different methods or builds or gear. This works great much of the time, but sometimes I get into a pattern where I’m changing things so quickly that I never give anything a fair shot and thus end up going in circles. Probably have been doing that here.

So I stepped back a bit and thought about why I wanted to make a thief. It was primarily to enable me to do things in WvW other than be in the “zerg”, which I find tedious. I don’t know a lot about WvW to be honest but I was hoping I might be able to scout, report on happenings, maybe take down a dolyak or wreak some havoc.

To that end it seems I don’t really need to work on being a lightning-fast backstab expert anyway. What I want to do is more consonant with the Blackbird build. I got my thief to 80 and set up approximately in that build (no fancy gear, yellows and greens) and am working on learning the weapons and combos — and there are a LOT of combos! LOL. This is just in PvE until I get more comfortable.

I’m already tinkering of course. I really like the stealth-on-steal ability and gave up the regen trait for that, at least for now. I’m also toying with running carrion gear rather than dire .. it seems to give a bigger offense boost than dire gives a defense boost. I’m keeping both gear sets and will swap between them and maybe even mix them.

I may also end up PD+DD instead of PD+DP. I like having CnD always available, and I’m thinking death blossom may be underrated in a condition build.

Any further thoughts welcome! Thanks again.

Funny the difference between theory and reality.

Went into WvW with my guild today and was in a small raiding group (awesome.. just what I wanted to do!) And I realized.. I need my shortbow! The teleport alone is essential. So that sort of did away with the PD+DD or PD+DP decision, at least for this role.

I got into a couple of 1v1 fights which went.. poorly. LOL It really is going to take a while, eh? Of course in this role dying frequently is par for the course… but still, I just sort of panic when I realize I am actually fighting.

Qaelyn.7612:

Went into WvW with my guild today and was in a small raiding group (awesome.. just what I wanted to do!) And I realized.. I need my shortbow! The teleport alone is essential. So that sort of did away with the PD+DD or PD+DP decision, at least for this role.

D/D #2 works quite nice for movement, but yeah, shortbow is useful for #5 and #2 on fields.

I got into a couple of 1v1 fights which went.. poorly. LOL It really is going to take a while, eh? Of course in this role dying frequently is par for the course… but still, I just sort of panic when I realize I am actually fighting.

That panic will go away with experience and thief is known for it’s ability to disengage when needed.

Qaelyn.7612:

Funny the difference between theory and reality.

Went into WvW with my guild today and was in a small raiding group (awesome.. just what I wanted to do!) And I realized.. I need my shortbow! The teleport alone is essential. So that sort of did away with the PD+DD or PD+DP decision, at least for this role.

You do not always need one equipped (Personally I only roam with one Pistol and Dagger to perma poison with Sigil of Doom) but always keeping a shortbow in your inventory is a very good rule of thumb for the thief when you need to assist in a large battle or join a group.

Buying an Invisible slot bag for your Inventory is useful for this as anything you place in there won’t show up to sell to Merchants or the Tradepost so is a good place to drop your Shortbow. (Though still appears for Mystic Forge so don’t forge it!)

Qaelyn.7612:

I got into a couple of 1v1 fights which went.. poorly. LOL It really is going to take a while, eh?

Don’t let this get you down! It doesn’t matter what anyone else says it’s the truth of the matter that a Thief is no longer the easiest class to play and learning to manage your skills and initiative will take some time, just keep trying heck if your server is doing any fight clubs go join in it is risk free experience in 1v1 scenario’s.

Qaelyn.7612:

Of course in this role dying frequently is par for the course… but still, I just sort of panic when I realize I am actually fighting.

It happens personally I’ve been playing since last November and I still panic on classes I’m not used to playing in situations I would normally be able to handle easily on my Thief as long as you keep going you’ll find eventually something will click, just try to calm yourself and slow down a little you have stealth to give you breathing room/time so you don’t have to use all of your Initiative/Utilities immediately.