[Updated] - Daredevil's Dodge & Endurance

[Updated] - Daredevil's Dodge & Endurance

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Posted by: Halcyon.5340

Halcyon.5340

Hello, Everyone!

Thieves have had a long history of not being able to stand firm in the face of fierce adversaries, and the shadows were always an alluring refuge for the feeble. With the arrival of the Daredevils, we thought it’d be different…

It seems the idea behind Daredevil is to give Thieves more tools to fight without relying solely on stealth. An extended endurance bar aids this purpose, but alone is not enough. In fact, in the past, we have effectively seen the third consecutive dodge in the form of Feline Grace, the Master Minor trait in Acrobatics. I would actually argue that Feline Grace in its original form was stronger than the extended endurance bar of the Daredevil. Because Feline Grace refunded about half of the endurance used on dodges, thieves were already able to consecutively dodge 3 times without an extended endurance bar, and 6 times through the use of Signet of Agility (even more with Superior Sigil of Energy). With the extended endurance bar that the Daredevil brings, Signet of Agility will only give the Thieves two extra dodges, down to 5 consecutive dodges, because its active effect only restores 100 endurance, and they are no longer being refunded.

One can even argue that an extended endurance bar is the only profession mechanic that thieves received through this Elite Specialization. I bring this up because thieves have to spend skill points to fully unlock Daredevil before they can enjoy the new dodge abilities (outside of sPvP, of course). Having to choose one of three Grandmaster traits that enable the full extent of the dodge mechanic feels off, in comparison to the effects that other Elite Specializations have gotten. What the current Daredevil fails to do is create a new playstyle for the Thief. It hasn’t inherently enabled them to do anything that they previously haven’t already been able to do through the aforementioned trait in Acrobatics, Feline Grace, before the Specialization rebalancing—in short, it feels as though it’s just a “return to form.” And, unlike other Elite Specializations, the Daredevil is the only one that does not interact with its class’s primary mechanics (in this case, Steal or Initiative; I feel Stolen Endurance is a bit of an afterthought) or give it something entirely new (such as Celestial Avatar, Function Gyro, Facet of Nature). Additionally, I feel that there isn’t enough interaction between the other class mechanics and the endurance bar. The ability to dodge is inherent in GW2’s combat system; it’s one of the things that makes it unique as opposed to other, more static games. However, while the Daredevil does grant players the ability to have more up-time on their dodges, it doesn’t create any more meaningful interaction between the player and their endurance bar. Chronomancers are aware of their fifth Shatter; Guardians are more aware of their new Virtues’ effects; Druids more aware of their new Celestial Avatar form, etc. A Daredevil player does not need to be any more aware of their supposed new class mechanic than they are on any other class, or have been in the past before changes to Acrobatics.

Since it’s obviously too late to reiterate from the ground up, and if dodging is to be the Daredevil’s special mechanic, then I strongly believe that all three of the new dodges should be made baseline for all Daredevils, and that each dodge should be able to be toggled during or before combat in a manner akin to Elementalist’s Attunements. Being able to toggle dodges without changing traits would help the Daredevil feel more thematically whole, as each dodge would then feel more like a profession mechanic addition, and compliment the extended endurance bar in a manner befitting the Elite Specializations, and feel more even when compared to, say, the changes to Guardian’s Virtue through Dragonhunter. It would create moments where players would be able to think things like, “Well, I can spend this 50 endurance on removing this Cripple, and then another 50 to get in close and do some damage.” Further, it would open the Grandmaster traits to carry more interesting effects that interact with the class as a whole, as “dodge and get this buff” feels somewhat lacking.

On the subject of greater interaction with the endurance bar, I would suggest that we increase the effectiveness of the Daredevil’s Physical skills based on endurance, similarly to how Warrior Physical skills can be increased in effectiveness through Peak Performance, as I feel it creates an interesting dynamic between the player’s decision to dodge versus saving their endurance to use a skill, similar to the Warrior’s choice of using their Burst skill, even if not many Physical skills on the Warrior see much use in the meta. To that end, I feel this suggestion could be made baseline or merged with Brawler’s Tenacity.

As an afterthought, I’ve noticed that Superior Sigil of Energy does not return 75 Endurance (50% of the Daredevil’s endurance); it will only restore 50 endurance (33% of the Daredevil’s endurance). On the matter of endurance regeneration, we know that endurance regenerates at 5 endurance (5%) per second, but is this truly the case for the Daredevil? Does the Daredevil have an endurance regeneration of 5 or 7.5 per second? With that in mind, I took up the task of observing several Daredevil videos on the web and noticed that they all regained one bar of endurance in 10s. In short, Daredevil has an endurance regeneration of 3.33% per second.

This plays into one of my my initial points, that the Daredevil’s supposed profession mechanic of an extended endurance bar is weaker than the original form of Feline Grace (returns 15 Endurance on dodge – which effectively increased the thief’s base endurance regeneration from 5% to 6.5%). It doesn’t seem that many endurance regeneration tools actually restore endurance based on a percentage, which means that having the extended bar is actually more ineffective during an actual fight, because there will be fewer opportunities for a Daredevil to actually receive benefit from their extended bar, and in some ways it is negating their ‘new’ mechanic altogether. For example, you have your third consecutive dodge, but if endurance regeneration doesn’t restore based on a percentage of the total endurance capacity, in most fights the Daredevil will only see that effect at the start. The idea behind the Daredevil’s mechanic seems to be that they are able to dodge more often than other classes, but it requires even more resources (traits, utility skills, etc.) to see the full effectiveness of the Elite Specialization’s purpose.

Because of its extended endurance bar, if the Daredevil does not reach maximum endurance at the same rate as any other profession, it serves as something as a placebo enhancement. In practice, it would only mitigate ‘over-regeneration,’ in which an external application of enhanced endurance regeneration is not wasted, which is already rare in most situations because players are encouraged to dodge often. Endurance regeneration is at a point where a normal Thief effectively only gains +1 Dodge by slotting in the Daredevil specialization, which, as another poster already pointed out, is rather underwhelming. I feel that Daredevil’s base endurance regeneration should be higher to compensate for its own extension.

We’ll leave the weapon staff out of this discussion. Our focus here is the Daredevil itself. Please tell us what you think!

(edited by Halcyon.5340)

[Updated] - Daredevil's Dodge & Endurance

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Posted by: SlayerSixx.5763

SlayerSixx.5763

This is actually a very sweet suggestion, but you also have to consider what the grandmasters would do. What would suggest they replace the GM traits with?

For instance, if you using the ground slam (bound, I think it was called), successfully dodge and attack and land the slam, it should knock the people hit by it down (or up, for lols). Call it moment of inertia or something along these lines.

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Posted by: Serious Thought.5394

Serious Thought.5394

The dodges are only allowed to be this strong BECAUSE they are traits. I still vote no. Spend a trait, get goodie. Spend no traits, get junk. Stop suggesting toggles. It gives them too much room to nerf via “perceived potential power”.

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Posted by: Shogun.7401

Shogun.7401

I would love to see this, unfortunately, they have no plans to make this change. At least I haven’t seen any acknowledgement from Karl regarding this suggestion.

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Posted by: Shalien.9018

Shalien.9018

The dodges are only allowed to be this strong BECAUSE they are traits.

Why do people insist on mutual exclusivity…

Reaper Shroud is far more powerful than the dodges. Celestial form is farm more powerful than the dodges. Most elite spec mechanics are either significantly stronger than or about equal to the dodges and none of them are traits.

In general, traits are weaker than profession mechanics.

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Posted by: Reikou.7068

Reikou.7068

While I do think some of the Thief traits need to be made baseline, I don’t think it should be the daredevil dodges..

Personally I’d prefer to see both Mug and Bountiful Theft made baseline, if anything to go with the whole “stealing” theme.

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

Anyone else suddenly wondering why our characters can run for infinite distances and not break a sweat but the simple act of executing a dodge roll is suddenly the most physically demanding thing?

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

I really don’t think this is necessary. I feel that the traits are incredibly strong as-is, and that the “profession mechanic” is the third dodge more than it is the dodge traits themselves. The interaction with that extra dodge is already awesome, competitively strong, and useful.

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Posted by: Gray.9041

Gray.9041

Everything OP just said was pretty much exactly how I’ve felt about the Daredevil since reveal.

the “profession mechanic” is the third dodge more than it is the dodge traits themselves. The interaction with that extra dodge is already awesome, competitively strong, and useful.

I’d disagree here, for a few reasons:

  • first, it’s only a third dodge at the start of the fight. since our endurance regen doesn’t change, it make no difference over an extended fight – especially since none of the endurance-refill skills affect the third bar.
  • secondly, you can’t really tell me that one extra dodge at the start of the fight can possibly be compared in any way to reaper shroud, celestial avatar, rage burst skills or any of the new profession mechanics. even dragonhunter virtues – which, I believe, were considered mildly underwhelming – are far more impactful that this +50 max endurance.
  • you mention the interaction with the third dodge, but as far as I can see, nothing interacts with the third dodge. sigil of agility ignores it, there’s no bonus for having it, and anyone who has all three bars full is probably using the class wrong.
  • while I’d agree that the third dodge is the mechanic, not the different types of dodge, I don’t really see how this lives up to the name. it’s a far cry from any other profession’s mechanic – base or elite spec – and it leaves the daredevil feeling weaker for it.

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Posted by: Halcyon.5340

Halcyon.5340

This is actually a very sweet suggestion, but you also have to consider what the grandmasters would do. What would suggest they replace the GM traits with?

For instance, if you using the ground slam (bound, I think it was called), successfully dodge and attack and land the slam, it should knock the people hit by it down (or up, for lols). Call it moment of inertia or something along these lines.

I feel like Brawler’s Tenacity should incorporate the effects from Warrior’s Peak Performance trait for the number of available endurance bar(s). And, maybe increase the endurance restoration from 10 to 15. This would make for a fairly normal Grandmaster trait.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

first, it’s only a third dodge at the start of the fight. since our endurance regen doesn’t change, it make no difference over an extended fight – especially since none of the endurance-refill skills affect the third bar.

I originally felt the same way, but having played with the extra dodge it’s very easy to regenerate, especially with all of the endurance regeneration boosters a thief has. Between Staff Master, Steal giving 50 endurance, Signet of Agility, and Vigor… It’s really easy in practice to get above 100 dodge during combat assuming you only dodge when necessary.

secondly, you can’t really tell me that one extra dodge at the start of the fight can possibly be compared in any way to reaper shroud, celestial avatar, rage burst skills or any of the new profession mechanics. even dragonhunter virtues – which, I believe, were considered mildly underwhelming – are far more impactful that this +50 max endurance.

Again, I used to feel this way too, but then I played it a ton in the betas. Dodging is perhaps the single most fundamental action in GW2 combat. I consider having an extra dodge far better than, for instance, the ranged stomp/res that a Scrapper gets or the swapped virtues a Dragonhunter gets.

you mention the interaction with the third dodge, but as far as I can see, nothing interacts with the third dodge. sigil of agility ignores it, there’s no bonus for having it, and anyone who has all three bars full is probably using the class wrong.

Swiftness on dodge, caltrops on dodge, condition clear on evade, vigor on evade, the grandmaster effects on dodge, healing on evade… There are a ton of things that interact with dodging on a Thief.

while I’d agree that the third dodge is the mechanic, not the different types of dodge, I don’t really see how this lives up to the name. it’s a far cry from any other profession’s mechanic – base or elite spec – and it leaves the daredevil feeling weaker for it.

I do think the Thief is one of the most undertuned classes right now overall, but as far as just the elite specification Daredevil goes, I think it’s in a great place, especially with all of the fancy new damage modifiers and the damage reduction we got on the weakening strikes trait.

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Posted by: SlayerSixx.5763

SlayerSixx.5763

Thief in a great place? Reaper and revenant would like to have a word with you, my friend.

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Posted by: MadVisions.4529

MadVisions.4529

I wonder why no one came up whith the question: why is it designed w/o endurance management?
my answer is becouse of accro. Think on it, drd got evade utilitys, accro got endurance management. If drd had both, the combination of accro and drd would lead into some broken nonstop-evade cheese. We dont want that.
our problem is that 2 of our traitlines serve the very same purpose: evade based combat survival.
our elite spec going to be sort of underwhelming until accro is butchered or completely reworked all becouse balance issues.
i’d say give drd a decent amount of vigyor uptime and forget accro. It cannot be nerfed anymore it’s already close to useless, rework & rename it posibly in the theme of team supporting and condition applyment+management. This should help thieves to brake out of theyr role’s prison.

Ps: warning! Written on phone, might lead to autocorrect issues.

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Posted by: Glacial.9516

Glacial.9516

This might be a silly suggestion, but what if Daredevil gave Vigor on dodge?

This would help to bring the 5% endurance regen in line with the extra bar. The downsides being that it doesn’t stack with vigor to restore energy even quicker and that it can be stripped/corrupted/stolen.

Afaik Vigor for 10s would give you the appropriate energy regen (75 over 10s) but that seems like it might be way too long? 3-5s maybe? Is that not enough? Is ‘forced’ Vigor on dodge a potentially bad thing, allowing foes to strip/corrupt/steal it right after a dodge?

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

Thief in a great place? Reaper and revenant would like to have a word with you, my friend.

You should reread what I said. I think the Daredevil elite specialization is in a great place, and I specifically called out not ten characters before that I feel the Thief overall is undertuned right now. For the record, ANet agrees.

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Posted by: Haralin.1473

Haralin.1473

The dodges are only allowed to be this strong BECAUSE they are traits.

Why do people insist on mutual exclusivity…

Reaper Shroud is far more powerful than the dodges. Celestial form is farm more powerful than the dodges. Most elite spec mechanics are either significantly stronger than or about equal to the dodges and none of them are traits.

In general, traits are weaker than profession mechanics.

As a engie i say a 3rd dodge is not so bad believe me

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Posted by: Gray.9041

Gray.9041

snip

As a engie i say a 3rd dodge is not so bad believe me

on any other class, you’d be right, but the thief needs these dodges. we don’t have the healing, passive tankiness or distractions (minions, pets, clones) that other classes do. even stealth’s been getting weaker and weaker, so the third dodge barely brings our survivability to the same level as other classes – probably still quite a bit less.

the thing to remember is that if a thief mistimes a dodge, gets the angle wrong, or even just gets caught without endurance – that’s it. no more defences, no second chances. dodges feel a lot like stealth used to – it’s an all or nothing defence.

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Posted by: glaphen.5230

glaphen.5230

This might be a silly suggestion, but what if Daredevil gave Vigor on dodge?

This would help to bring the 5% endurance regen in line with the extra bar. The downsides being that it doesn’t stack with vigor to restore energy even quicker and that it can be stripped/corrupted/stolen.

Afaik Vigor for 10s would give you the appropriate energy regen (75 over 10s) but that seems like it might be way too long? 3-5s maybe? Is that not enough? Is ‘forced’ Vigor on dodge a potentially bad thing, allowing foes to strip/corrupt/steal it right after a dodge?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endless_Stamina

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Posted by: Halcyon.5340

Halcyon.5340

This might be a silly suggestion, but what if Daredevil gave Vigor on dodge?

This would help to bring the 5% endurance regen in line with the extra bar. The downsides being that it doesn’t stack with vigor to restore energy even quicker and that it can be stripped/corrupted/stolen.

Afaik Vigor for 10s would give you the appropriate energy regen (75 over 10s) but that seems like it might be way too long? 3-5s maybe? Is that not enough? Is ‘forced’ Vigor on dodge a potentially bad thing, allowing foes to strip/corrupt/steal it right after a dodge?

Vigor on dodge could easily be overpowered depending on its duration. That’s because we also have to account for both boon duration and Endless Stamina (instead of 50% endurance regeneration from Vigor, Endless Stamina increases it to 75%).

On the bright side, vigor on dodge can work out, but some minor traits must be moved around. For example, we would have to move Feline Grace over to the Acrobatic grand-master minor and give it 3 seconds of Vigor on dodge. Then, we’d move Endless Stamina over to the Daredevil Elite Specialization to support its extended endurance bar. In return for moving Endless Stamina over to the Daredevils, we’d move Daredevil’s Driven Fortitude over to the Acrobatics specialization to fill in the void. This would also entail the demotion of Endurance Thief into the master minor trait as well as nerfing its endurance gain from 50 to 30. In short, it would look something like this:

All Acrobatics minor traits:
Adapt – https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Expeditious_Dodger
Master – https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Driven_Fortitude
Grandmaster – Feline Grace (GM): Grant 3s of Vigor on dodge.

All Daredevil elite minor traits:
Adapt – https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enforcer_Training
Master – Endurance Thief (Master): Gain endurance (30) on a successful steal.
Grandmaster – https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endless_Stamina

To compensate for the Daredevil’s base endurance regeneration of 3.33% (other professions have a base endurance regeneration of 5%), Endless Stamina would interact more dynamically with the Daredevil Elite Specialization than it will with Acrobatics. I feel this change would make Daredevil more solid as a whole.

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Posted by: Amante.8109

Amante.8109

I’m still waiting for Endurance regeneration to scale with max Endurance…

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Posted by: Gray.9041

Gray.9041

first, it’s only a third dodge at the start of the fight. since our endurance regen doesn’t change, it make no difference over an extended fight – especially since none of the endurance-refill skills affect the third bar.

I originally felt the same way, but having played with the extra dodge it’s very easy to regenerate, especially with all of the endurance regeneration boosters a thief has. Between Staff Master, Steal giving 50 endurance, Signet of Agility, and Vigor… It’s really easy in practice to get above 100 dodge during combat assuming you only dodge when necessary.

true, they can. but the same could all be achieved by using two bars and dodging more frequently. nothing here requires, or is even significantly impact by, the third dodge. sure, it’s an extra dodge you can store, but with all the regen you just mentioned, you don’t really need to.

you mention the interaction with the third dodge, but as far as I can see, nothing interacts with the third dodge. sigil of agility ignores it, there’s no bonus for having it, and anyone who has all three bars full is probably using the class wrong.

Swiftness on dodge, caltrops on dodge, condition clear on evade, vigor on evade, the grandmaster effects on dodge, healing on evade… There are a ton of things that interact with dodging on a Thief.

again here – these are all based on dodge. not on the third dodge. nothing here couldn’t also be done with normal thief with the endurance regen it has. the things that would affect the third dodge specifically would be things like signet of agility, or sigils of stamina, which – last I checked – specifically don’t. nothing you’ve listed is directly tied to having 150 max endurance – all and any benfits are indirect.

while I’d agree that the third dodge is the mechanic, not the different types of dodge, I don’t really see how this lives up to the name. it’s a far cry from any other profession’s mechanic – base or elite spec – and it leaves the daredevil feeling weaker for it.

I do think the Thief is one of the most undertuned classes right now overall, but as far as just the elite specification Daredevil goes, I think it’s in a great place, especially with all of the fancy new damage modifiers and the damage reduction we got on the weakening strikes trait.

just so I’m clear – do you think that – given the undertuned nature of thief – daredevil is as good as any other elite spec, but is hampered by it’s base class, or are you saying that daredevil is on par with other elite specs despite the current state of thief?

and I do think many aspects of Daredevil are quite good. but the “altered class mechanic” is certainly not one of these. I don’t think it’s significant enough to be considered for the name, and I don’t think it brings a huge change to the class.

for example, a reaper without reaper shroud would play very differently. a druid without celestial avatar would be barely a druid at all. like them or hate them, overloads are a big part of tempest.

but a daredevil with 100 max endurance would be very, very similar.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

All they need to do is give back the original Feline Grace.

Seriously guys, you had your little joke, “steal from the thieves,” we all get it, it’s time to put it back where you found it.

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Posted by: messiah.1908

messiah.1908

you also forget to compare some other class endurance regen
engi 50% if traited
revenant 25%
etc…

so basically we got 1 dodge more but less regen so engi for example has also 3 dodges in longer fight….

but also consider
dmg on dodge – like a warrior
perma swfitness and mobility cleanse on dodge
conditions on dodge
which are nice things too

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

just so I’m clear – do you think that – given the undertuned nature of thief – daredevil is as good as any other elite spec, but is hampered by it’s base class, or are you saying that daredevil is on par with other elite specs despite the current state of thief?

The former, definitely. Daredevil is good, but the core Thief could use a little bit of work for it to compete with a number of other elite specializations.

and I do think many aspects of Daredevil are quite good. but the “altered class mechanic” is certainly not one of these. I don’t think it’s significant enough to be considered for the name, and I don’t think it brings a huge change to the class.

I don’t think everything has to be flashy and totally brand new to be exciting and awesome. For me, the simplicity and elegance of simply having a third dodge and then being able to interact with all dodges in neat new ways is very flavorful and very exciting. Reaper may stand out from Necromancer, but that doesn’t inherently make Reaper a superior elite specialization.

for example, a reaper without reaper shroud would play very differently. a druid without celestial avatar would be barely a druid at all. like them or hate them, overloads are a big part of tempest.

but a daredevil with 100 max endurance would be very, very similar.

Except you’re not considering the whole picture. The traits on Daredevil are more impactful than the traits on Reaper, while the core mechanic of Reaper is more impactful than the core mechanic of Daredevil… That’s okay, by the way! The overall net gain is that both elite specs are awesome in their own way, and that’s sort of the whole point.

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Posted by: Khazik.8052

Khazik.8052

This was a great write up. I’m always disappointed to say the least, when reading about daredevil. Other profs get Avatar form, reaper, changed F1-5 skills, even traversing the time-space continuum itself; thieves… a weaker form of a previous minor trait.

I’m really curious as to how Thief DD got the “pass” for being an elite spec, and not just a rework & rename of Acrobatics trait line.

Maybe we haven’t seen the real elite trait line?

“No valid path to target” – Thief life (Dragonbrand)

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Posted by: Halcyon.5340

Halcyon.5340

you also forget to compare some other class endurance regen
engi 50% if traited
revenant 25%
etc…

so basically we got 1 dodge more but less regen so engi for example has also 3 dodges in longer fight….

You’re right, but I can’t really compare the Thief or the Daredevil to the other professions in that respect. It wouldn’t be fair, because thieves don’t have any trait or utility skill that passively regenerates endurance.

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Posted by: traviswrdunbar.4780

traviswrdunbar.4780

Just as a related note, I decided to mess around with the Daredevil during the betas, seeing how evasive I could be. None of this was tested against a real opponent, but using D/D for Death Blossom, the Lotus Training trait, and a Superior Sigil of Energy, I performed 12 evades in a row (as in no more than half a second wait between, due to my own lack of speed), between DB usage and regular dodges, while each was also delivering an aoe damage shot.

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Posted by: Nex Vestrum.1025

Nex Vestrum.1025

+1 to everything in OPs post. I wrote something along these lines in the BWE3 feedback thread, along with many, many, many other people but I’ve kinda given up hope on getting a dev response to these concerns. I am only hoping that if people keep giving feedback about these design flaws Anet will re-balance/rework Daredevil sometime in the future.

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Posted by: Halcyon.5340

Halcyon.5340

+1 to everything in OPs post. I wrote something along these lines in the BWE3 feedback thread, along with many, many, many other people but I’ve kinda given up hope on getting a dev response to these concerns. I am only hoping that if people keep giving feedback about these design flaws Anet will re-balance/rework Daredevil sometime in the future.

Don’t lose hope! You must stay determined, Nex!

Thinking that one day thieves could have more than two viable builds fills me with determination!