Guild Wars 2

Hey guys. Blurry here. After much testing and theorycrafting for the past few days. I’ve found what has so far for me been the best D/D build for roaming thus far. It allows great 1v1 potential, as well as 1v2 and 1v3 if you have the skills. Quick shout outs to Dhawk. His post helped with deciding on my runes for my armor!

Base stats of the build: (Please keep in mind this is after WvW Guard Stacks, Food/Oil and Bloodlust!)

Power: 2800ish
Effective HP: 20,100
Critical Hit Chance: 50% (Goes up to 70% with fury and 77% from traits)
Critical Hit Damage: 247% (Goes to 262% after fury)

That’s really the important stats for Thief I guess ^__^. Let me give an overview of the build!

The build relies heavily on landing your cloak and daggers successfully but gives you room for error with the large HP pool. I chose to trait myself into the Critical Strikes, Shadows Arts, and Trickery trees (OMG NO DEADLY ARTS?!?!). Yes I dropped deadly arts. This is what allows our build to do so much damage while still have a large HP pool. (With 260% Crit damage, backstabs hit like a truck!)
Traiting into Shadow Arts increases our ability to survive by a fair amount. I take regen HP while in stealth over the blind on stealth trait. This is just a personal preference of mine (Please make CnD have blind built in <3). Shadow Arts also allows our stealth skills to last longer which is always nice. That’s really just about all I took SA for.

I decided to also take Critical Strikes to keep our DPS high. Having perma fury is amazing. Nuff said about that.

Trickery I obviously took so I could have a little more leeway on my initiative use as well as the reduced recharge on steal (This build gives a lot of buffs from steal, USE IT LOTS!!)

That explains most the traits portion. The skills itself in the build are just my preference. I’m trying to not use SR because I find it to be a crutch and we just get spammed in it anyways. I decided to take Blinding Powder to stay mobile and keep applying pressure, as well as to relieve it when I need.

On to the armor!!
I decided to take all Berserker’s except TWO pieces. I take Valkyrie Chest and Leggings. These two pieces of armor have the most stats so I decided to take Valkyrie on them for the extra HP. Simple as that. I decided to run Superior Runes of the Wurm on my armor (Thanks DHawk) as they give great survivability and increase of Critical Hit damage by a good margine. Also take full Berserker Trinkets, Rings, Etc.
I guess I should make a comment about the Food and Oils too. Furious Maintenance Oil is a MUST!! (Huntsman 450) and I take Plate of Truffle Steak for Power and Precision. Gives us that extra UMPH!

Anyways guys, I hope you enjoy using this build. It’s about as close as I could get to what we used to be. Play smart with it and I’m sure many of you will see success. We still have to play smart and patiently, but I feel this build has just the right mix of damage, survivability, and hp to be very effective in roaming the battlegrounds. If you want to add me and ask me any questions or make a donation (nudge wink nudge), feel free to.

IM BLURRY AND IM OUT!!

LINK TO THE BUILD: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVlsMhynYpTwzJw/EH7E1OAqt2kfCjQJ4nio4KA-T1SDwA9Uid4BAIc/BvKBTcKAeq84l6Kw13M4IEAwETMVKCAgAcz2sNvZA38m3MkCQPdWA-w

Wurm runes seems to be popular after the patch ;o

MidoriMarch.8067:

Wurm runes seems to be popular after the patch ;o

We need the added survivability and it allows us to not have to take Deadly Arts since we make up some damage in Critical Hits.

zzBlurryzz.7492:

MidoriMarch.8067:

Wurm runes seems to be popular after the patch ;o

We need the added survivability and it allows us to not have to take Deadly Arts since we make up some damage in Critical Hits.

might try those out.

Anyway good to see many people still running d/d

seriously hope anet do something for d/d

MidoriMarch.8067:

zzBlurryzz.7492:

MidoriMarch.8067:

Wurm runes seems to be popular after the patch ;o

We need the added survivability and it allows us to not have to take Deadly Arts since we make up some damage in Critical Hits.

might try those out.

Anyway good to see many people still running d/d

seriously hope anet do something for d/d

Since I started using this build, my only things I want from Anet are Blind built INTO Cloak and Dagger, and combined 50% move speed in stealth with a grandmaster.

Thanks for referring to me ^^ it’s kinda sorta the same build just more focused on roaming compared to mine being good in everything but no perfect in one thing ^^

This is like almost the exact same build, my crit chance is a bit lower, but my health is higher
You swapped acro for trickery
Makes sense in the roaming 1v1 area
But imho signet of shadows isn’t very strong
Since you run high ini anyhow you can use shortbow for movement without really wasting any and you can give yourself speed with steal
I’d switch the signet for blinding powder, it’s more versitile ^^

DHawk.2687:

This is like almost the exact same build, my crit chance is a bit lower, but my health is higher
You swapped acro for trickery
Makes sense in the roaming 1v1 area
But imho signet of shadows isn’t very strong
Since you run high ini anyhow you can use shortbow for movement without really wasting any and you can give yourself speed with steal
I’d switch the signet for blinding powder, it’s more versitile ^^

The traits are different, the armor is different, the utilities are different. That’s rather far from exact. The similarites are food, runes. Besides that.there are obvious traits every thief will take.

zzBlurryzz.7492:

DHawk.2687:

This is like almost the exact same build, my crit chance is a bit lower, but my health is higher
You swapped acro for trickery
Makes sense in the roaming 1v1 area
But imho signet of shadows isn’t very strong
Since you run high ini anyhow you can use shortbow for movement without really wasting any and you can give yourself speed with steal
I’d switch the signet for blinding powder, it’s more versitile ^^

The traits are different, the armor is different, the utilities are different. That’s rather far from exact. The similarites are food, runes. Besides that.there are obvious traits every thief will take.

the utilities are the same except for the signet, and as i said you always rotate that elite anyhow
furthermore i also see many similarities in how you addressed the first post to mine and my follow up posts ^^ kinda funny, just got the feeling your build was based on mine ;P
the armor is about the same, you would even gain more going full valk instead of 50/50
and imo no quarter isn’t as good as hidden killer, since your main dps is the backstab, sure you’ll have about 68% crit chance, but i will still not crit more than often.
the only benefit to my build i see is the more 1v1 orientated traitsystem, everything else is either the same or weaker..

but anyhow thanks again for mentioning me

i hope you don’t think i’m trying to badmouth, I’m just curious in which points yours benefits over mine except for the trickery initiative and boonriping?
if i missed something please tell me just here to help out as you are

Hello, Blurry.
First off, thank you for sharing your build with us. I have been running something very similar and I completely agree with choice of traiting into CS instead of DA. I have been only using blind on stealth (have to try Shadows Rejuvenation, if it works for you!) and withdraw as heal with trickster talent to remove conditions. I have to ask: Have you tried this? For me, it works a little bit better than Hide in Shadows – but it also feels like waste of trait, because only one ability benefits from it. But yeah, after all, it is personal preference.
Second question I have is about runes. I simply cant play thief without +25% movement speed, so I use Traveler runes to have one extra utility to use. Ofc, Wurm gives you more vitality and crit damage, but is it enough to justify sacrifice of one utility slot?

I consider myself to be mediocre thief, so I am always trying to learn something. Thanks again for posting your build!

@zzBlurryzz

I’ve been using a similar build in WvW:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=Vh;4RwkZ0J5R-Fd0;9;4JKM;0247247237;4Oo0-S;1DucYDucYn-F9I6;0S;1VOVTWYXcYi3o4230C-2i;5F2Cok2Cw;9;9;9;9;85-6n

I tend to take stealth on steal as well though.
Found the Runes of Speed + WvW buff gives enough HP (14-15k) to keep me going.

Mines a bit different but it works for my “deception” build.
Just what i like for the feel of my thief. Mango Pie is sometimes useful for food too.

Like seeing how yours was done as it’s just enough difference to give a different experience. It’s the little things.

using stealth on steal is kinda dumb, since with dd you use the 5 f1 backstab combo, steal on stealth breaks that combo

I steal and backstab which does not break stealth until the backstab hits.
I remove a point of failure since the C&D has to land with out it.
But then again, it’s just because I’m lazy.

why don’t you channel CnD and then steal, it hits the target you go stealth and then backstab, why the hell minimize your burst for no reason? xD

DaBigMek.4873:

Hello, Blurry.
First off, thank you for sharing your build with us. I have been running something very similar and I completely agree with choice of traiting into CS instead of DA. I have been only using blind on stealth (have to try Shadows Rejuvenation, if it works for you!) and withdraw as heal with trickster talent to remove conditions. I have to ask: Have you tried this? For me, it works a little bit better than Hide in Shadows – but it also feels like waste of trait, because only one ability benefits from it. But yeah, after all, it is personal preference.
Second question I have is about runes. I simply cant play thief without +25% movement speed, so I use Traveler runes to have one extra utility to use. Ofc, Wurm gives you more vitality and crit damage, but is it enough to justify sacrifice of one utility slot?

I consider myself to be mediocre thief, so I am always trying to learn something. Thanks again for posting your build!

The heal skill is all personal preference, I like my opponents to not know where I am as much as possible. Keep them disoriented. My reason for Signet of shadows is that I don’t want to take Traveler Runes just to get my move speed. In D/D you need at least that 25% but with traveler runes, you’re sacrificing so much just to get it. Taking signet of shadows allthrough is not amazing, it is good. The blind when you get surprised or dived on is nice, and since I also run blinding powder, I can survive a couple of them.

DHawk.2687:

why don’t you channel CnD and then steal, it hits the target you go stealth and then backstab, why the hell minimize your burst for no reason? xD

Having an extra stealth option ever 20 seconds is not a bad thing to have and has uses other then just a setup for backstab. Why minimize global functionality and defenses just for the sake of burst that likely isn’t going to kill the target with just itself anyways?

Both ways have their pros and cons.

Xovian.8572:

DHawk.2687:

why don’t you channel CnD and then steal, it hits the target you go stealth and then backstab, why the hell minimize your burst for no reason? xD

Having an extra stealth option ever 20 seconds is not a bad thing to have and has uses other then just a setup for backstab. Why minimize global functionality and defenses just for the sake of burst that likely isn’t going to kill the target with just itself anyways?

Both ways have their pros and cons.

It’s all preference ^_^

zzBlurryzz.7492:

Xovian.8572:

DHawk.2687:

why don’t you channel CnD and then steal, it hits the target you go stealth and then backstab, why the hell minimize your burst for no reason? xD

Having an extra stealth option ever 20 seconds is not a bad thing to have and has uses other then just a setup for backstab. Why minimize global functionality and defenses just for the sake of burst that likely isn’t going to kill the target with just itself anyways?

Both ways have their pros and cons.

It’s all preference ^_^

i know that, but using the CnD steal will do the exact same as the trait ( well you need a target but there always is a target in wvw normally) you will shadowstep and be stealthed, plus you could if you want insta backstab, so if you run the CnD steal combo and use a different trait in that line you gain more, since the only benefit the trait gives you is that you don’t need initiative
for DP I can see it’s use, but for DD it’s just kinda a waste imo.

DHawk.2687:

( well you need a target but there always is a target in wvw normally)

Not true, the stealth will activate with out a target (also thrill of the crime, ~_- ).
When getting away from zerg/blobs, it’s actually useful, just got to be quick on hitting the ESC key to remove target so that it activates and doesn’t go on cooldown and be wasted.

zzBlurryzz.7492:

Hey guys. Blurry here. After much testing and theorycrafting for the past few days. I’ve found what has so far for me been the best D/D build for roaming thus far. It allows great 1v1 potential, as well as 1v2 and 1v3 if you have the skills. Quick shout outs to Dhawk. His post helped with deciding on my runes for my armor!

Base stats of the build: (Please keep in mind this is after WvW Guard Stacks, Food/Oil and Bloodlust!)

Power: 2800ish
Effective HP: 20,100
Critical Hit Chance: 50% (Goes up to 70% with fury and 77% from traits)
Critical Hit Damage: 247% (Goes to 262% after fury)

That’s really the important stats for Thief I guess ^__^. Let me give an overview of the build!

The build relies heavily on landing your cloak and daggers successfully but gives you room for error with the large HP pool. I chose to trait myself into the Critical Strikes, Shadows Arts, and Trickery trees (OMG NO DEADLY ARTS?!?!). Yes I dropped deadly arts. This is what allows our build to do so much damage while still have a large HP pool. (With 260% Crit damage, backstabs hit like a truck!)
Traiting into Shadow Arts increases our ability to survive by a fair amount. I take regen HP while in stealth over the blind on stealth trait. This is just a personal preference of mine (Please make CnD have blind built in <3). Shadow Arts also allows our stealth skills to last longer which is always nice. That’s really just about all I took SA for.

I decided to also take Critical Strikes to keep our DPS high. Having perma fury is amazing. Nuff said about that.

Trickery I obviously took so I could have a little more leeway on my initiative use as well as the reduced recharge on steal (This build gives a lot of buffs from steal, USE IT LOTS!!)

That explains most the traits portion. The skills itself in the build are just my preference. I’m trying to not use SR because I find it to be a crutch and we just get spammed in it anyways. I decided to take Blinding Powder to stay mobile and keep applying pressure, as well as to relieve it when I need.

On to the armor!!
I decided to take all Berserker’s except TWO pieces. I take Valkyrie Chest and Leggings. These two pieces of armor have the most stats so I decided to take Valkyrie on them for the extra HP. Simple as that. I decided to run Superior Runes of the Wurm on my armor (Thanks DHawk) as they give great survivability and increase of Critical Hit damage by a good margine. Also take full Berserker Trinkets, Rings, Etc.
I guess I should make a comment about the Food and Oils too. Furious Maintenance Oil is a MUST!! (Huntsman 450) and I take Plate of Truffle Steak for Power and Precision. Gives us that extra UMPH!

Anyways guys, I hope you enjoy using this build. It’s about as close as I could get to what we used to be. Play smart with it and I’m sure many of you will see success. We still have to play smart and patiently, but I feel this build has just the right mix of damage, survivability, and hp to be very effective in roaming the battlegrounds. If you want to add me and ask me any questions or make a donation (nudge wink nudge), feel free to.

IM BLURRY AND IM OUT!!

LINK TO THE BUILD: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVlsMhynYpTwzJw/EH7E1OAqt2kfCjQJ4nio4KA-T1SDwA9Uid4BAIc/BvKBTcKAeq84l6Kw13M4IEAwETMVKCAgAcz2sNvZA38m3MkCQPdWA-w

No SR for reset????

If I were to use this build I would replace the wurm runes with rune of speed (vit plus 25% run bonus) remove SoS and pick up SR.

Personally both builds are great.
The oil is a bottleneck tough. Both builds simply doesn’t work without it.

There is a catch here tough, you guys might need to have in mind for the future. Stacks of fortitude are going to be removed in the future. Thats a blow to both builds

This will be a blow to all builds, but even if you will remove fortitude stacks those 2 will be way better then 12-13k hp ones.

VladR.9827:

This will be a blow to all builds, but even if you will remove fortitude stacks those 2 will be way better then 12-13k hp ones.

I imagine they’ll boost overall Vitality in WvW

Xovian.8572:

DHawk.2687:

( well you need a target but there always is a target in wvw normally)

Not true, the stealth will activate with out a target (also thrill of the crime, ~_- ).
When getting away from zerg/blobs, it’s actually useful, just got to be quick on hitting the ESC key to remove target so that it activates and doesn’t go on cooldown and be wasted.

I’m not talking about the stealth, I mean the shadow step, for the signet and steal to shadow step you you’ll need a target

Shameful bump xD Hehe

Nice build. I actually run with Warrior Runes instead of Wurm, as I find the extra power gives a little more overal damage than the extra ferocity. But there’s really not a lot in it tbh.

Rin.1046:

Nice build. I actually run with Warrior Runes instead of Wurm, as I find the extra power gives a little more overal damage than the extra ferocity. But there’s really not a lot in it tbh.

Interesting idea.

Anyone else come up with better? I’ve been on hiatus.

Define “better.”

There are builds with similar stat durability and deal more damage, but offer less utility.

DeceiverX, I know I haven’t been on the boards much, nor have I played much, but I still have yet to see a max damage post patch from you.

That being said, for me, “better” would be more dmg. Can you point me to it? I’m looking for a good D/D to run. I’ve always been D/P pre-patch.

Post-patch, this would be the best I’ve got recorded on an 80 (sorry no proof/he resurrected as you can see the combat log has to be shifted). There have been some a bit higher, but most instances where I stumble upon a truly glassy foe and get huge stabs in the 22-24k area, there are almost always other people nearby which make the damage logs push the damage out.

As far as the build goes, pretty standard signets. Similar innate durability, much, much less utility.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAoY8Yl0MhKnYjTwzJw/EHwE0uDLPF+0En2oTQAyAA-TlCBABHfCA2Tvwlq+UpaAnpEEr9HlSA8EAySZTeaCY4gAEAAB4mtZb2mBn38m38m38czbezbezbWKAB1ZB-w

DeceiverX.8361:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAoY8Yl0MhKnYjTwzJw/EHwE0uDLPF+0En2oTQAyAA-TlCBABHfCA2Tvwlq+UpaAnpEEr9HlSA8EAySZTeaCY4gAEAAB4mtZb2mBn38m38m38czbezbezbWKAB1ZB-w

Why the vitality food?
Try Seaweed Salad or Plate of Truffle Steaks . Edit: I see at least the latter wouldn’t really be better in your case, still I’m pretty convinced that Seaweed salad is.

I think this build is pretty strandard. I’m not saying it’s bad, it’s almost like a classical d/d. It completely relies on c&d which is a big weakness imo, especially since there are a tons of immunities, blocks, evades, out there (not for thieves obviously).

There’s a lot of similarity between our posts now that I’m reading through yours and it was on accident, just wanted to point it out first haha. But this is the link to my build I have https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/D-D-Outnumbered-WvW-Roaming-Build/first#post5358089 Similar to yours in some aspect, but a lot more focused around vitality.

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAoY8Yl0MhKnYjTwzJw/EHwE0uDLPF+0En2oTQAyAA-TlCBABHfCA2Tvwlq+UpaAnpEEr9HlSA8EAySZTeaCY4gAEAAB4mtZb2mBn38m38m38czbezbezbWKAB1ZB-w

Why the vitality food?
Try Seaweed Salad or Plate of Truffle Steaks . Edit: I see at least the latter wouldn’t really be better in your case, still I’m pretty convinced that Seaweed salad is.

Possibly, though I’d still probably take Butternut Squash Soup over it as the higher power gains a bit more consistency against heavies and the likes. I was just posting what I was running at the time, as when I’m not really trying to push out crazy damage figures/max a stab, I usually run cheaper food as to not go broke. The vitality bonus helps reduce the impact of conditions as well, due to the very minimal condition cleaning the build offers. Even 700 HP can sometimes make the difference.

DeceiverX.8361:

Possibly, though I’d still probably take Butternut Squash Soup over it as the higher power gains a bit more consistency against heavies and the likes. I was just posting what I was running at the time, as when I’m not really trying to push out crazy damage figures/max a stab, I usually run cheaper food as to not go broke. The vitality bonus helps reduce the impact of conditions as well, due to the very minimal condition cleaning the build offers. Even 700 HP can sometimes make the difference.

I doubt that your build has any more purpose than one shotting people. Which is ok, but don’t say it’s “a roaming build” ;)

has anyone tried rune of rage? idk how much more damage the 5% bonus gives compared to the extra ferocity from wurm, but just a thought

Jana.6831:

I doubt that your build has any more purpose than one shotting people. Which is ok, but don’t say it’s “a roaming build”

Why, because it doesn’t use SA or because it’s not part of some kind of stealth-optimized-outnumbered-sustaining-soft-CC-abusing rotation build? I’m sorry, but this build works fine for me. If you feel the need, I can hook you up with one of my server’s most well-known commanders who will gladly tell you just how well I frontline 40-man blobs using the same build, too.

Honestly, the only time I usually ever go down is taking RF’s from multiple power longbow rangers or situations where I’d have to or by reasons of reasonable game balance, should have to run to begin with (5/6+ v 1) and the odd guy playing the really unused build really well (I once found this M/S guard that I couldn’t fight against for the life of me, and props to him).

The build has nothing to do with its potential. It’s how well you play it and how well you utilize what you have. I’ve played D/D SA/Acro, D/P meta (old and new), P/D condi, S/P, and S/D main. I found anything involving SA completely imbalanced and faceroll-easy, especially when paired with fire/air sigils. Yes, there are some really bad matchups which when playing on the safe side, should probably be avoided, but that’s not really different from sPvP and for the most part is resolved through using S/D alternate over SB.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s designed to one-shot people, but if I really need to get permanent stealth for some reason (of which I have no idea now), I can always trait into SA on the fly. Currently, mesmers can permanently stealth themselves just fine utilizing some adjusted utilities and swapping in SB for blasts on SS.

Russian Bear.7310:

has anyone tried rune of rage? idk how much more damage the 5% bonus gives compared to the extra ferocity from wurm, but just a thought

Mathematically, it’s just not very well-optimized. The thief has so much access to Fury that the duration aspect feels pretty wasted, it offers no better sustaining potential and overall substantially less damage from both lower ferocity/critical damage values from wurm and lower power/damage modifiers values from scholar.

One of those sad runes that I feel belongs better on classes with limited access to Fury and traits/utilities that make it not worth traiting into, but the classes which have these kinds of scenarios don’t really have much of a use for fury to begin with, such as Necro/Reaper with Death Perception.

DeceiverX.8361:

Jana.6831:

I doubt that your build has any more purpose than one shotting people. Which is ok, but don’t say it’s “a roaming build”

Why, because it doesn’t use SA or because it’s not part of some kind of stealth-optimized-outnumbered-sustaining-soft-CC-abusing rotation build? I’m sorry, but this build works fine for me. If you feel the need, I can hook you up with one of my server’s most well-known commanders who will gladly tell you just how well I frontline 40-man blobs using the same build, too.

Honestly, the only time I usually ever go down is taking RF’s from multiple power longbow rangers or situations where I’d have to or by reasons of reasonable game balance, should have to run to begin with (5/6+ v 1) and the odd guy playing the really unused build really well (I once found this M/S guard that I couldn’t fight against for the life of me, and props to him).

The build has nothing to do with its potential. It’s how well you play it and how well you utilize what you have. I’ve played D/D SA/Acro, D/P meta (old and new), P/D condi, S/P, and S/D main. I found anything involving SA completely imbalanced and faceroll-easy, especially when paired with fire/air sigils. Yes, there are some really bad matchups which when playing on the safe side, should probably be avoided, but that’s not really different from sPvP and for the most part is resolved through using S/D alternate over SB.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s designed to one-shot people, but if I really need to get permanent stealth for some reason (of which I have no idea now), I can always trait into SA on the fly. Currently, mesmers can permanently stealth themselves just fine utilizing some adjusted utilities and swapping in SB for blasts on SS.

Why do you even ask why I think so if you confirm it two paragraphs later?
I ran without SA for a bit after the patch – I can imagine that it works for D/P and for some fights for D/D but in the end the condi remove without SA is that bad that it isn’t really viable. But then again the condi remove with SA is maybe 20% better – thanks to all who wanted to have SA nerfed (I’m looking in your direction, yes).
Also running around with 3 signets isn’t. I can imagine it works for you but you likely pick your fights differently than most of us.

Just to make sure I’m not missing something important. If I am, I’d love to incorporate it into my play if it won’t fundamentally change the build.

On the contrary, D/P almost requires SA due to the massive initiative dump that BP+HS is. Blowing the utilities early to avoid needing to do this then also becomes no different than playing something like signets.

When against condition builds, I use Sword/IS + IR a lot, + Trickster on Withdraw so I have much fewer problems with cleansing than previously before the patch, and usually finish off after my burst in S/D to get a bit better sustain and evasion presence while forcing blown mobility effects from my foes, CC’ing, blinding, stealing boons/unblockable attacks, etc. Don’t you also play with Berserker gear? That alone provides much less condition damage tolerance than anything like my setup as it would require substantially faster cleanses on the DoT conditions – something which the changes to SE actually improved upon since the 6/23 patch. Conditions were my initial reasoning behind investing in Valkyrie gear – I formulated extra damage out of it as a side-effect when optimizing in detail one day after the release of Furious Stones.

I usually don’t find myself picking particular targets, no. Usually, I’ll give most people a try, and simply escape via IS/IR, steal, CnD, HS, and Withdraw if I need to. I’ve been avoiding a lot of condi PU mesmers lately, as the confusion stacks deal so much damage that the act of cleansing them will take out half of my health, but I think it goes without saying that said build hard-counters most thief specs that don’t push into aggressive cleansing, and is absolutely a hard-counter to my own. I can always tail and kill them after they engage a camp of meaningful objective, though, as enough of their cooldowns will usually be blown to let me do so quite successfully. Otherwise, if it’s a straggler, I usually engage unless I have good reason not to, such as suspected stealthed enemies or others nearby, and even then that depends on classes.

DeceiverX.8361:

Just to make sure I’m not missing something important. If I am, I’d love to incorporate it into my play if it won’t fundamentally change the build.

On the contrary, D/P almost requires SA due to the massive initiative dump that BP+HS is. Blowing the utilities early to avoid needing to do this then also becomes no different than playing something like signets.

When against condition builds, I use Sword/IS + IR a lot, + Trickster on Withdraw so I have much fewer problems with cleansing than previously before the patch, and usually finish off after my burst in S/D to get a bit better sustain and evasion presence while forcing blown mobility effects from my foes, CC’ing, blinding, stealing boons/unblockable attacks, etc. Don’t you also play with Berserker gear? That alone provides much less condition damage tolerance than anything like my setup as it would require substantially faster cleanses on the DoT conditions – something which the changes to SE actually improved upon since the 6/23 patch. Conditions were my initial reasoning behind investing in Valkyrie gear – I formulated extra damage out of it as a side-effect when optimizing in detail one day after the release of Furious Stones.

I usually don’t find myself picking particular targets, no. Usually, I’ll give most people a try, and simply escape via IS/IR, steal, CnD, HS, and Withdraw if I need to. I’ve been avoiding a lot of condi PU mesmers lately, as the confusion stacks deal so much damage that the act of cleansing them will take out half of my health, but I think it goes without saying that said build hard-counters most thief specs that don’t push into aggressive cleansing, and is absolutely a hard-counter to my own. I can always tail and kill them after they engage a camp of meaningful objective, though, as enough of their cooldowns will usually be blown to let me do so quite successfully. Otherwise, if it’s a straggler, I usually engage unless I have good reason not to, such as suspected stealthed enemies or others nearby, and even then that depends on classes.

So? Yes, the patch was okayish for everything but D/D which needed SA the most.
If you want to one shot your opponents they likely don’t really have a chance, but then again I have never seen you fighting, so all I can do is guess, but what I would do if I were running your build was to wait for single targets (if solo roaming).

I have got 4 thieves at 80, all of them D/D one has got P/D as a second set(my condi thief), although all of them have got all weapons availlable to thief anyway.
My main has got valk armor, rest zerker (some valk+ zerker trinkets) with my old and now rather useless runes of strength.
Another is full zerker with runes of the pack.
Another is 20% more valk than my main and has got an assassins dagger with sigil of perception (first ascended dagger I crafted, that’s why) and she’s got runes of hoelbrak.
Fourth thief has got a cavalier/valk/zerker mix with runes of the traveller, rest zerker, some day I’ll get around and change her gear.

There’s no real difference between them in wvw, although I tried DA,SA, T with my full zerker pack thief yesterday. Worked pretty good but then again my game is lagging really bad (has been even worse during the beta weekend), so I can’t really say who won what fight because of what.

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

Just to make sure I’m not missing something important. If I am, I’d love to incorporate it into my play if it won’t fundamentally change the build.

On the contrary, D/P almost requires SA due to the massive initiative dump that BP+HS is. Blowing the utilities early to avoid needing to do this then also becomes no different than playing something like signets.

When against condition builds, I use Sword/IS + IR a lot, + Trickster on Withdraw so I have much fewer problems with cleansing than previously before the patch, and usually finish off after my burst in S/D to get a bit better sustain and evasion presence while forcing blown mobility effects from my foes, CC’ing, blinding, stealing boons/unblockable attacks, etc. Don’t you also play with Berserker gear? That alone provides much less condition damage tolerance than anything like my setup as it would require substantially faster cleanses on the DoT conditions – something which the changes to SE actually improved upon since the 6/23 patch. Conditions were my initial reasoning behind investing in Valkyrie gear – I formulated extra damage out of it as a side-effect when optimizing in detail one day after the release of Furious Stones.

I usually don’t find myself picking particular targets, no. Usually, I’ll give most people a try, and simply escape via IS/IR, steal, CnD, HS, and Withdraw if I need to. I’ve been avoiding a lot of condi PU mesmers lately, as the confusion stacks deal so much damage that the act of cleansing them will take out half of my health, but I think it goes without saying that said build hard-counters most thief specs that don’t push into aggressive cleansing, and is absolutely a hard-counter to my own. I can always tail and kill them after they engage a camp of meaningful objective, though, as enough of their cooldowns will usually be blown to let me do so quite successfully. Otherwise, if it’s a straggler, I usually engage unless I have good reason not to, such as suspected stealthed enemies or others nearby, and even then that depends on classes.

So? Yes, the patch was okayish for everything but D/D which needed SA the most.
If you want to one shot your opponents they likely don’t really have a chance, but then again I have never seen you fighting, so all I can do is guess, but what I would do if I were running your build was to wait for single targets (if solo roaming).

I have got 4 thieves at 80, all of them D/D one has got P/D as a second set(my condi thief), although all of them have got all weapons availlable to thief anyway.
My main has got valk armor, rest zerker (some valk+ zerker trinkets) with my old and now rather useless runes of strength.
Another is full zerker with runes of the pack.
Another is 20% more valk than my main and has got an assassins dagger with sigil of perception (first ascended dagger I crafted, that’s why) and she’s got runes of hoelbrak.
Fourth thief has got a cavalier/valk/zerker mix with runes of the traveller, rest zerker, some day I’ll get around and change her gear.

There’s no real difference between them in wvw, although I tried DA,SA, T with my full zerker pack thief yesterday. Worked pretty good but then again my game is lagging really bad (has been even worse during the beta weekend), so I can’t really say who won what fight because of what.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, frankly, though I firmly stand by my statement that D/D is less-dependent on SA due to less of a need for initiative refunding from Rejuv. SE is one of the best traits on the thief, and I’d argue all thief builds could benefit immensely from it, as it closes one of the biggest gaps on the class, but I still wouldn’t claim that D/D needs it the most.

DA/CS/Trickery offers substantially more damage than CS/SA/Trickery, and substantially more reliable damage than DA/SA/Trickery. This is truly compounded when not playing with builds such as signets, however.

DeceiverX.8361:

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, frankly, though I firmly stand by my statement that D/D is less-dependent on SA due to less of a need for initiative refunding from Rejuv. SE is one of the best traits on the thief, and I’d argue all thief builds could benefit immensely from it, as it closes one of the biggest gaps on the class, but I still wouldn’t claim that D/D needs it the most.

DA/CS/Trickery offers substantially more damage than CS/SA/Trickery, and substantially more reliable damage than DA/SA/Trickery. This is truly compounded when not playing with builds such as signets, however.

Well, SA is more useless to D/D thieves than to D/P thieves because D/D thieves can’t use the traits they had anymore – I wrote in another thread why the changes of SA are especially bad for D/D.
If you use D/D to primarily one shot people, then you don’t need SA, true, as you’ve got one chance to down them. My playstyle is different from yours – watch nightblades videos to get an idea of how I fight (he’s better than me, though, yes I’m a fangirl). I don’t really want to one shot people, although it can be fun, but I guess I’m more in for the mind games.

SE is good for every weapon set, yes, but all other weapon sets have means to either avoid AoE or to cleanse condis, that’s why SE and the whole SA line as it had been was crucial for D/D thieves. It still works somehow, but I was in Garri today, zerg fight and have been caught in the enemy zerg for a bit, got condis on me, don’t remember if I used withdraw and then SR, guess I did, but I do know that I used SR, stood there for 10 seconds, nothing else happened and I dropped – that’s so depressing, honestly.

Edit: Grammar

Jana.6831:

Well, SA is more useless to D/D thieves than to D/P thieves because D/D thieves can’t use the traits they had anymore – I wrote in another thread why the changes of SA are especially bad for D/D.
If you use D/D to primarily one shot people, then you don’t need SA, true, as you’ve got one chance to down them. My playstyle is different from yours – watch nightblades videos to get an idea of how I fight (he’s better than me, though, yes I’m a fangirl). I don’t really want to one shot people, although it can be fun, but I guess I’m more in for the mind games.

SE is good for every weapon set, yes, but all other weapon sets have means to either avoid AoE or to cleanse condis, that’s why SE and the whole SA line as it had been was crucial for D/D thieves. It still works somehow, but I was in Garri today, zerg fight and have been caught in the enemy zerg for a bit, got condis on me, don’t remember if I used withdraw and then SR, guess I did, but I do know that I used SR, stood there for 10 seconds, nothing else happened and I dropped – that’s so depressing, honestly.

Edit: Grammar

Contradictions about D/P’s need for SA being less significant aside, the cleansing capability of SE in regards to DoT’s, which in the case you mentioned above, were assumed to be responsible for your death in garri, has improved substantially since the 6/23 patch. The only direct nerf to SE/SA as a whole is that its stealth effects go into effect after the third second instead of at the beginning of first stealth, i.e., the conditions are cleansed once per three seconds while in stealth, and the timer starts upon entry to cleanse a condition rather than cleansing a condition immediately. Since SE no longer cleanses disabling conditions such as vuln, cripple, weakness, immob, chill, or slow, it will now shed DoT conditions faster, as the previous priority system used to cleanse based on FIFO queue, regardless of their potency or how close to death you were. Your death in garri, if attributed to conditions, would have only been faster given SE before the 6/23 changes, and only may have been avoidable because of the changes. If you died instead from physical damage, you made play mistakes somewhere ranging anything from a misplaced/early evade or shadowstep, improper mobility skill use, poor initiative management, just being in the wrong situation by letting the zerg run over you, hitting a stealth trap and not realizing it, etc.).

As far as Nightblade goes, he’s a good thief. Yes, his and my styles are quite different, and most of the video recording he does involves outnumbered fights and the subsequent use and abuse of the defenses from SA to overcome situations which normally “shouldn’t” occur. A build like mine doesn’t get as much reset flexibility, or must instead rely on learning opponents’ cooldowns and pulling a full OOC reset and striking between critical skills. As such, it kills much faster, meaning that with skilled play, it doesn’t need as much reset potential.

As far as grammar goes, don’t worry too much with me unless it’s really bad or changes the meaning of the post. I likely won’t notice as much/mine probably isn’t as good as normal as I have some substantial abrasion on my right cornea after an accident Monday morning, making parts of my vision rather blurry :P

DeceiverX.8361:

the cleansing capability of SE in regards to DoT’s, which in the case you mentioned above, were assumed to be responsible for your death in garri, has improved substantially since the 6/23 patch. The only direct nerf to SE/SA as a whole is that its stealth effects go into effect after the third second instead of at the beginning of first stealth, i.e.,

No, it starts the moment you enter stealth, don’t ask me if the “pulse” is now slower, I just know that I can’t get the conditions off of me. Maybe that’s also because the other classes can apply them faster, I don’t know. It’s not better than before; I could prevent being feared out of my SR, I could get rid of immobilize and cripple and all the other nice stuff, now I’m bound to stay in AoE as I can’t get out of it because of cripple/immobilize and I still have that 5 stacks of confusion on me which kills me within a few ticks (I proposed a similar fashion like boon stealing for condi cleanse – that might have been an improvement).

DeceiverX.8361:

it will now shed DoT conditions faster, as the previous priority system used to cleanse based on FIFO queue, regardless of their potency or how close to death you were.

Answered above, you’re now bound to stay in aoe – yay more condis applied to you!

DeceiverX.8361:

Your death in garri, if attributed to conditions, would have only been faster given SE before the 6/23 changes, and only may have been avoidable because of the changes. If you died instead from physical damage, you made play mistakes somewhere ranging anything from a misplaced/early evade or shadowstep, improper mobility skill use, poor initiative management, just being in the wrong situation by letting the zerg run over you, hitting a stealth trap and not realizing it, etc.).

I run with the zergs in evenings, I made no mistake =)
I’m doing so for now 1,5 years. And yeah, I’m still a solo roamer “JOOOST GET THAT DOLLY!!” (no honestly, I still am).
Just saying that withdraw and 10s stealth should prevent my death but they don’t.

DeceiverX.8361:

As far as Nightblade goes, he’s a good thief. Yes, his and my styles are quite different, and most of the video recording he does involves outnumbered fights and the subsequent use and abuse of the defenses from SA to overcome situations which normally “shouldn’t” occur. A build like mine doesn’t get as much reset flexibility, or must instead rely on learning opponents’ cooldowns and pulling a full OOC reset and striking between critical skills. As such, it kills much faster, meaning that with skilled play, it doesn’t need as much reset potential.

I don’t think that any of your fights lasts longer than one minute. Learning to time the skills of your opponent is a skill itself, yes, kudos, I couldn’t analyze the whole build of my opponent and all it’s lowered cooldowns within half a minute.
Anyway that’s a bit much to ask for of every thief, isn’t kitten? And let’s be honest; most if not all classes have got means to do the same – if I were still a ranger (f.e. – the class I know second best, I’m a bit ashamed to admit it) I would use LB 3 and GS 4 as often as possible when waiting for cooldowns to wear off. The same like a thief who CnDs on his opponent.

DeceiverX.8361:

As far as grammar goes, don’t worry too much with me unless it’s really bad or changes the meaning of the post. I likely won’t notice as much/mine probably isn’t as good as normal as I have some substantial abrasion on my right cornea after an accident Monday morning, making parts of my vision rather blurry :P

I (almost) always say what I’ve edited in my posts, unless I notice a mistake right after posting it. I think it’s fairer so people see the “edited” and know what I’ve changed.

Edit (yes) : Maybe the way conditions work right now is completely out of control and that is also a factor why thief condi removal doesn’t really work, but all conditions are damaging and SA gets off 50% of them, withdraw and trickery (does anyone still use hide in shadows btw?) remove 25%, so that’s still 25% of condis I can’t get rid off. I could go SA, Trickery and Acro – but honestly if that really is neccessary, then let’s just call it bad design!

I’ve never played a full glass D/D in WvW before. I should try it now. I’d love to hit a 20k BS, but I don’t even have enough points to get the atk stat increase from guards, nor do I have WvW infusions because I still play fractals.

Thanks DeceiverX

Lamuness.3570:

I’ve never played a full glass D/D in WvW before. I should try it now. I’d love to hit a 20k BS, but I don’t even have enough points to get the atk stat increase from guards, nor do I have WvW infusions because I still play fractals.

Thanks DeceiverX

You get higher numbers if the opponent is close to be downed.
Although I managed to pull a 6k CnD + 18? K backstab off myself -against a glassy thief right after the patch, and no he wasn’t my friend, so watch out.

Just for curiosity, what is your build Jana?