Guild Wars 2

—The problem is D/P does his burst dmg and then can leave, so he has to survive for a very short duration then they can switch to bow for cleave or go stealth. While S/D has no real burst and you do autoattack for damage if you autoattack in a team fight and do some flanking strikes u still die really fast. If you go shortbow or try to melee more carefully then u are nearly useless for your team.

—Sword autoattack is countered by blinds and blocks because even a warrior hits faster with sword (even without the attack speed increase trait or the haste trait they all have). A double hit for half dmg each on first autoattack would help a lot against their main counters while not helping much against other classes.
Dagger autoattack -in contrast- hits super fast which helps proccing sigils and has a powerful effect on each hit. (double hit, endurance gain, poison+weakness).
After running some autoattack tests on D/P vs S/D half of the time Sword half of the time Dagger wins so Sword doesn’t even have a stronger damage over time than Dagger.(Also note: too much RNG effects in the game)

—Sword has 2 attacks that do OK dmg then you do a more powerful 3rd hit with some short(2s :/ ) but useful condis. Dagger has 3 really quick hits at the start (that you can finish before sword lands a second hit). And what happens when in a fight?: your auto chain resets because you obviously have to use other skills or face pauses, Sword goes back to the weak start of the chain while Dagger gets to proc both of their sigils instantly with their quick hits and almost ignore blinds and aegis.

////Solution////: make the first attack double hit and move cripple to second attackto help land the third, and improve survivability to help staying in teamfights(for example Assassin’s reward could become a trait that heals you each time you evade with a 0.75 sec cooldown per 5 heals so during a good dodge roll if you avoid 7 things you get healed for 5 of them and the next time you dodge you can also be healed for 5 of them. Thus you are still encouraged to evade a lot of stuff at once but it can’t heal for absurd amounts.) Maybe 200 heal per evade but it would need some testing. Moreover Cloak and Dagger should get a buff because its way-way more risky to use than the smoke field+leap combo, possibly an aoe blind could be added when it hits or increased stealth time on it. Buff Acro in general and make it more sword-reliant. Add a short weakness to Flanking Strike to allow beneficial auto-attack trades & to make opponents have to dodge something at least.

They should just buff acrobatics slightly. I don’t understand the nerfs.

In PvE nobody used acrobatics.
In WvW some roamers used it, but not many.
In PvP pre patch D/P was meta and Sizer one of the last thieves using S/D.

Anets conclusion: nerf acrobatics. Kill build diversity.

I think ANet nerfed accrobatics cause they wanted to nerf all dodges. Ergo the base Vigor nerf for example.

stof.9341:

I think ANet nerfed accrobatics cause they wanted to nerf all dodges. Ergo the base Vigor nerf for example.

Dodges were mostly a problem on classes like Mesmers, Engies and Eles that also get ridiculous defensive mechanics on top of regular dodges.

I think Feline Grace should be restored to the old version. Vigor should stay as it is now. Pain Response is still needed, and the nerf to Withdraw is reasonable so there won’t be issues with perma-vigor thieves. The Grandmaster Traits are all terrible, but if they buffed Assassin Reward to 100hp per initiative I think acro builds could become a good attrition set. They should also make the Swiftness on dodge be 50% longer.

I literally see no reason to EVER spec into acrobatics right now.

The nerf to Acrobatics affected all Thief’s builds. I successfully played every weaponset with Acrobatics prior to the June 23rd patch (PP, SP, SD, DP, PD,+SB), now I really cannot play anything with that without feeling that it would be the same if I went with no traitline at all.

Plus it’s not just the nerfs to Acrobatics, but it’s the fact that EVERY other class has been buffed to ridiculous amounts, with passive traits kicking in 24/7 to save their lives.

EDIT: I forgot to say that Guarded Initiation is a horrible trait. It is highly unlikely that a thief stays above 90% HP with a build which includes Acrobatics. Plus, if we look at the ways of applying Weakness, you can easily realise that that very attack that applies Weakness to the thief will most likely bring him below 90% HP.
They should rework this trait and make it so that the ICD is increased to 5s and the health threshold should be above 50% HP.

YuiRS.8129:

stof.9341:

I think ANet nerfed accrobatics cause they wanted to nerf all dodges. Ergo the base Vigor nerf for example.

Dodges were mostly a problem on classes like Mesmers, Engies and Eles that also get ridiculous defensive mechanics on top of regular dodges.

Well, don’t argue with me, I’m just saying what I think are the ANet reasons :p

Aka, a blanket nerf on dodges with little consideration for balance.

In the forums there were a lot of ideas how to make S/D viable again.

This goes from 3s reduced recharge on steal on kitten cd on an actual evade (instead of the current -1s CD/1s) over healing on evade to Feline Grace on evade basically.
[not my ideas]

if anet would ever look at the thief forum they would get informed about the actual crap traits, how more viable ones could look like and how to fix some of the build diversity problems in general…

Yeah, they need to revert some of the nerfs to the acro line. For a line based around evasion it has very poor endurance regen now. I think fluid strikes needs to be brought back as “gain 5 endurance on hit/crit (1 sec icd)” so the more aggressive you are, the more you benefit. That would prevent the “unskilled dodge spam” they were worried about.

Upper Hand needs a condi clear on it too on successful evasion.

sd needed some nerfs during their glorious days but i think anet overdid it lol
i don’t understand acro changes given that vigor got nerfed across all classes already
i also think the meta changes do have their impact on weither sd is played or not

Cynz.9437:

sd needed some nerfs during their glorious days but i think anet overdid it lol
i don’t understand acro changes given that vigor got nerfed across all classes already
i also think the meta changes do have their impact on weither sd is played or not

Anet is slowly nerfing thief to death.
First S/P, overall nerfs, then S/X big nerf, S/D and with this patch crippled D/D + SB + D/P and killed S/D. D/P cuming next?

Kinda interesting how anything besides D/P is (has become) kitten.

FlawlezZ.3178:

Anet is slowly nerfing thief to death.
First S/P, overall nerfs, then S/X big nerf, S/D and with this patch crippled D/D + SB + D/P and killed S/D. D/P coming next?

You forgot p/p was nerfed into uselesness with the removal of Ricochet. So yeah, d/p is next because it is literally the only viable weaponset left.

you forgot dd before that :P

Yes acro needs a buff just in general because ATM has just as much synergy with a D/P build as S/D because the bottom line in acro is obvious for the taking. The minor traits should already have synergy with sword, the idea of gaining vigor on any evade is good but you need to evade with 8 separate skills successfully AT LEAST, to get an extra dodge roll. Even the CD is 1 sec, so if you do 2 flanking strikes (1/2 s evades) u’ll get only 1 proc anyway. →This is just negligible. All the other evasion traits are also too weak and there should be more of them in acro.

Ele (Tempest)-Renewing Stamina + Latent Stamina (+ defensive boons) is just fine.

Thief (Acro) – Wayyyyyyyyy to much endurance regen (right?)
.
.
.
.

>.<

we are used that every class gets more dodges for free and get extra dodge effects “cough” basically every other class has a good on-dodge effect except thief “cough” ranger’s +20%endurance regen grants way more endurance than thief’s vigor effectiveness +50% trait, engis even have +50%energy perma, etc

What if anet increased evasion times on evasive thief skills? Like 1/4s? Alot of the skills somewhat suck in the evasion department.

yolo swaggins.2570:

What if anet increased evasion times on evasive thief skills? Like 1/4s? Alot of the skills somewhat suck in the evasion department.

But that’s not going to happen because they’ve reduced those in the past. Look at disabling shot for reference.

Oh god that skill is horrible! Poor damage, poor conditioning, poor evasion time and distance. This skill has like no redeeming qualities.

What do you expect when the dev responsible for thief balancing doesn’t even log on his thief for 2 weeks or more and can’t even remember what some skills/traits do?

Kicker.8203:

we are used that every class gets more dodges for free and get extra dodge effects “cough” basically every other class has a good on-dodge effect except thief “cough” ranger’s +20%endurance regen grants way more endurance than thief’s vigor effectiveness +50% trait, engis even have +50%energy perma, etc

You forget that if a ranger evades an attack, he gains 5 sec vigor. And if you think Rangers have less evades, take a look at Ranger’s S/D.

Who cares? Anet will never fix this class… Might as well just roll tagachi rev when they come out…

swinsk.6410:

Who cares? Anet will never fix this class… Might as well just roll tagachi rev when they come out…

Easily manipulated. I’ve said it before, thief nerf was a sales ploy so people would buy HoT and get the cooler looking class of the shadows.

I have a thief fully decked out in ascended gear, sword and all. S/D got butchered and now she sits on the character select page gathering dust. I’ve tried so many times, even tweaking runes, food, skills around and it’s just underwhelming, broken, bruised. What a terrible mistake ANet has made and worse still, they either won’t tend to it or literally will leave it as is. Our ideas, pleas and feedback fall on deaf ears.

Here’s hoping the thief spec will enlighten things…

Pretty much agree with you guys. I pretty much never post on the forums in terms of balance because no matter how much I may disagree, I would always try to just adapt to the change. But this latest patch has made S/d thief too punishing for the damage it does compared to other builds. At first I thought it was just cause I sucked but I tried my medi guardian to see if I equally sucked on that but had a waaaaaaaaaaaay easier time in beating players. I was even able to hold off two players some times (and nearly win) despite almost never playing it in spvp. Furthermore, when I duel other players with my thief, whenevever I take a calculated risk to trade melee blows, where my opponents health is low and my health is above 50%, I would often lose just because of that which is frustrating.

Assassin’s reward could be merged with upper hand. To compare, in Shadow arts 1 stealth=1200heal and about 2 initiative.

This would bring the 2 trait trees more in line.

The most success that I’ve had with S/D after the patch was running a D/P + S/D Shadow Arts build, which works really well but again… I’m running D/P to make it work. Kinda makes me sad that sword is only good when the enemy is below 50% and even then, D/P works just as good, if not better.

I try atm CS/DA/TR. I’m so desperate to bring something to work. I just love the fast paced gameplay and can’t imagine to play only d/p in the future.

Acrobatics is just fine BUT Felince Grace. Cuz its the worst trait and most useless trait in thief.. gain 2 SECONDS of Vigor for EVERY successful dodge? and it has INTERNAL COOLDOWNS!!! WHAT THE Heck!!

Anet are total idiots when it comes to Balance , there was absolutely no need to nerf S/D , I hardly ever play this game anymore myself and when I do I don’t even bother logging on thief because playing one is pointless , the class has been dismantled bit by bit with every patch because the devs are totally clueless on how to balance a game.

Could care less of what Sizer is doing.I still love s/d and it works very nice. The word you looking for is adjust,I had problems at start but I adjusted,and now im fine with the changes to thieves,maybe a bit more health needed but in general I find it adjustable.

A build I have been having some more success in is this one:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVl0MhenYpTw7JQ/EHwE1+CWuB1HGxRboTgAIDA-TJBBwAAOFAoLDA5JAsc/BA

Still can’t beat PU mesmers or cele eles (though with the latter I have been putting up a better fight) but other than that, it has alot of HP and has the ability to burst if timed right. Also I found that No Quarters is enough to makes up for lack of fury on runes while along side Ferocious Strikes, Practiced Tolerance, and Wurm runes make up for the lack of ferocity on Barbarian’s Amulet (funny because Wurm runes give more ferocity than Rage runes with this setup). Also timing Flanking strikes can burst ur foes if u do a steal—>CnD—>tactical strike combo. And the trickster trait has given me a bit more heal while giving me the condi cleanse needed to deal with Condi builds. However, this has only been used in PuG games because I’m a PuG type of guy and don’t know how it would fare in high rank play. ANy skilled thief care to give this build a wurl and tell us how it goes?

Kayji.4390:

A build I have been having some more success in is this one:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVl0MhenYpTw7JQ/EHwE1+CWuB1HGxRboTgAIDA-TJBBwAAOFAoLDA5JAsc/BA

Still can’t beat PU mesmers or cele eles (though with the latter I have been putting up a better fight) but other than that, it has alot of HP and has the ability to burst if timed right. Also I found that No Quarters is enough to makes up for lack of fury on runes while along side Ferocious Strikes, Practiced Tolerance, and Wurm runes make up for the lack of ferocity on Barbarian’s Amulet (funny because Wurm runes give more ferocity than Rage runes with this setup). Also timing Flanking strikes can burst ur foes if u do a steal—>CnD—>tactical strike combo. And the trickster trait has given me a bit more heal while giving me the condi cleanse needed to deal with Condi builds. However, this has only been used in PuG games because I’m a PuG type of guy and don’t know how it would fare in high rank play. ANy skilled thief care to give this build a wurl and tell us how it goes?

Accuracy Sigil is bad, take Fire or Blood.
Bountiful Theft is a MUST for any competitive scenario, even though against certain classes it is not that useful (especially against Necro or Engi).
Ferocity is the WORST offensive stat. Increasing Power is ALWAYS better, so Wurm Runes are kind of wasted. If you want to do damage, take Power Runes→ Vampirism/Pack are the best choice here.

Kayji.4390:

A build I have been having some more success in is this one:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVl0MhenYpTw7JQ/EHwE1+CWuB1HGxRboTgAIDA-TJBBwAAOFAoLDA5JAsc/BA

Still can’t beat PU mesmers or cele eles (though with the latter I have been putting up a better fight) but other than that, it has alot of HP and has the ability to burst if timed right. Also I found that No Quarters is enough to makes up for lack of fury on runes while along side Ferocious Strikes, Practiced Tolerance, and Wurm runes make up for the lack of ferocity on Barbarian’s Amulet (funny because Wurm runes give more ferocity than Rage runes with this setup). Also timing Flanking strikes can burst ur foes if u do a steal—>CnD—>tactical strike combo. And the trickster trait has given me a bit more heal while giving me the condi cleanse needed to deal with Condi builds. However, this has only been used in PuG games because I’m a PuG type of guy and don’t know how it would fare in high rank play. ANy skilled thief care to give this build a wurl and tell us how it goes?

Hey, that’s not bad. Here’s what I’ve been using. My strategy usually goes FS>Steal>IS>LS>CnD>TS because you’ll usually put out decent damage up to the CnD, then the Tactical Strike will prevent a heal. There’s a little leeway there in the middle, but FS>Steal is usually the start for me to queue up Larcenous Strike for the damage/unblockable/boonsteal. Here’s a slight modification of the rotation when everything goes right.

They should perhaps revert the change to FS/LS back to what it used to, instead of having it as an evade skill, that you have to hope hits.

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

They should perhaps revert the change to FS/LS back to what it used to, instead of having it as an evade skill, that you have to hope hits.

Personally I think it shouldn’t change to Larcenous Strike when you use the Flanking strike in the air. However, when your target evades it or something it should still switch.

Kicker.8203:

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

They should perhaps revert the change to FS/LS back to what it used to, instead of having it as an evade skill, that you have to hope hits.

Personally I think it shouldn’t change to Larcenous Strike when you use the Flanking strike in the air. However, when your target evades it or something it should still switch.

What about just blocks? Flavor-wise, an evade or miss may as well be the same as hitting the air.

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

Flavor-wise, an evade or miss may as well be the same as hitting the air.

think of it… if you AA into the air noothing happens, on the other hand if you AA someone blocking, evading or with blind your AA stage develops. this should happen to FS too.

MadVisions.4529:

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

Flavor-wise, an evade or miss may as well be the same as hitting the air.

think of it… if you AA into the air noothing happens, on the other hand if you AA someone blocking, evading or with blind your AA stage develops. this should happen to FS too.

Agree on this.