Guild Wars 2

Zeroumus.5402:

Bunzy.8674:

Zeroumus.5402:

Downed State is fine. What your trying to say is a) You think having your party focus fire on one guy is skill. or b)using typical MMO rouge style attacks is skill. The truth is that neither is a skill, and both are certainly not deep skills. You can do either of these options when there is a large amount of people around to a skilled player.

What the downed state does in these cases is negate shallow skills and gives all players a chance to still be in the fight. If your so called skill is to focuse fire someone and ignore all other aspects of play, the down state makes sure that your shallow skill goes un-rewarded.

Focus fire is not skill. It is still a good idea, but that alone is not skill. If you think it is, then yes, downed state is going to upset you. If you really value skill in video gaming, you should like the downed state as it negates shallow skills.

please save me the post how you will 1on1 me and show me your mad skillz, I am not claiming i am the best player here. I just respect real skill compared to shallow skills

If someone is focusing you:

Move out their range – They will be forced to switch or chase you.
If they switch you can heal up and come back into the fight.
If they chase you the rest of your team will kill them.

I am guessing you stand still and die and then get ressed back up and that’s your counter to it, which is why you like the downed state. Which only proves my point further that it doesn’t promote skillful gameplay… infact it does the opposite.

you kinda of got the wrong idea right off the hop with “If someone is focusing you:” when what i meant was having a group focus one you. it sounds like you are talking about 1on1’s, but if that was the case the downstate should not be a problem in this situation.

-

I come from the school where skill is defined by how you make your your enemy choose the reaction you want them to pick, not by the reactions themselves. Not even by the reactions you make. moving out of the line of fire, running back to your team mates does not mean you have skills, so none of this is even relevent to skill;

If someone is focusing you…..

Move out their range – They will be forced to switch or chase you.
If they switch you can heal up and come back into the fight.
If they chase you the rest of your team will kill them.

….. this is the natural reactions every player has to being attacked if they feel out matched.

The downed state serves to give no reward to shallow skills such as zerging someone. Shallow being defined as asking your group to press “t” on the keyboard before attacking some mystery target you might not be able to see in the zerg. I know i might hurt the feelings of the people who think doing this means their group has skill, but I am just telling it like it is.

If a group is focusing one of you whether the downed state is there or not you will still die, I don’t understand what you are trying to say?

Raincrow.1840:

Rhyis.7058:

I just said we were good at a very very small portion of WvW. I didn’t say we were teh walking pwn on earth and everybody else is turrible . Why you felt the need to interject such a simple statement is beyond me.

If you had simply said you were “good” I wouldn’t have argued. You said you were better at defending than “pretty much every server out there”, which is what I had a problem with. The reason I’m interjecting more than that comes from past experience with your server, as I explained already.

Rhyis.7058:

You’re confusing this dudes extremely vocal 10 man guild, who’s been on our server for a grand total of 3 weeks, with the rest of the server who’ve been here since the beginning.

Maybe, but you were there when I was trying to explain the difference between small group “skill” and server wide “skill”. Not a single Magoooma player, you included, was willing to admit that server wide strategy is based on a different skill set than small group strategy. I notice you guys have been winning your tier these days, so maybe you’ve started to figure it out…. But you would need to understand your weakness before you could become better, so who knows.

Pretty sure you got trolled. Because only a few Maggies actually have the mentality you describe lol.

I say leave the downstate in. Leave it as is.

I don’t remember being part of this conversation that this dude is talking about, so apparently I was supposed to save this Rainbow guy from a troll guild nobody cares about.

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Pretty sure you got trolled. Because only a few Maggies actually have the mentality you describe lol.

Well it’s too bad they didn’t pop into their own match up thread and take part in the 2 week debate. Would have been nice to have a true discussion.

Rhyis.7058:

I don’t remember being part of this conversation that this dude is talking about, so apparently I was supposed to save this Rainbow guy from a troll guild nobody cares about.

I didn’t need “saving” LoL, and it’s funny you think it was just one guy when it was far more than that. What you could have done though was take part in a discussion that was going on, and maybe made your server look good. Instead, I guess you let people you think of as trolls do all the talking.

On a side note, Bunzy has been on this server longer than 3 weeks.

Bunzy.8674:

Zeroumus.5402:

Bunzy.8674:

Zeroumus.5402:

Downed State is fine. What your trying to say is a) You think having your party focus fire on one guy is skill. or b)using typical MMO rouge style attacks is skill. The truth is that neither is a skill, and both are certainly not deep skills. You can do either of these options when there is a large amount of people around to a skilled player.

What the downed state does in these cases is negate shallow skills and gives all players a chance to still be in the fight. If your so called skill is to focuse fire someone and ignore all other aspects of play, the down state makes sure that your shallow skill goes un-rewarded.

Focus fire is not skill. It is still a good idea, but that alone is not skill. If you think it is, then yes, downed state is going to upset you. If you really value skill in video gaming, you should like the downed state as it negates shallow skills.

please save me the post how you will 1on1 me and show me your mad skillz, I am not claiming i am the best player here. I just respect real skill compared to shallow skills

If someone is focusing you:

Move out their range – They will be forced to switch or chase you.
If they switch you can heal up and come back into the fight.
If they chase you the rest of your team will kill them.

I am guessing you stand still and die and then get ressed back up and that’s your counter to it, which is why you like the downed state. Which only proves my point further that it doesn’t promote skillful gameplay… infact it does the opposite.

you kinda of got the wrong idea right off the hop with “If someone is focusing you:” when what i meant was having a group focus one you. it sounds like you are talking about 1on1’s, but if that was the case the downstate should not be a problem in this situation.

-

I come from the school where skill is defined by how you make your your enemy choose the reaction you want them to pick, not by the reactions themselves. Not even by the reactions you make. moving out of the line of fire, running back to your team mates does not mean you have skills, so none of this is even relevent to skill;

If someone is focusing you…..

Move out their range – They will be forced to switch or chase you.
If they switch you can heal up and come back into the fight.
If they chase you the rest of your team will kill them.

….. this is the natural reactions every player has to being attacked if they feel out matched.

The downed state serves to give no reward to shallow skills such as zerging someone. Shallow being defined as asking your group to press “t” on the keyboard before attacking some mystery target you might not be able to see in the zerg. I know i might hurt the feelings of the people who think doing this means their group has skill, but I am just telling it like it is.

If a group is focusing one of you whether the downed state is there or not you will still die, I don’t understand what you are trying to say?

well, its what happens after you die that really matters. At any point, a leader can call a target and tell people to dive in. The real question is was it the right action, was putting all the effort into reducing the enemy by 1 worth the risks. The answer is simple, if your attacking force continued to role on through the opposing group then the tactic was correct, the guy you killed at first never got a rez to begin with. If for some reason you opponents push you back, then that player that got zerged gets back in the fight via a rez

The downed state makes sure that if your attack is 1 dimensional ( insta killing someone ) it goes unrewarded. If your attack is multi dimensional, waiting till you have the correct tactical momentum and then insta killing someone, then it goes rewarded and the downed state has little effect. your enemy cant recover from the downed state if he is behind your front line that you just advanced ( unless your guys are really dumb )

In simple terms it simply makes it so the act of just killing someone real quick with little chance of reaction is not enough to effect the outcome of a fight between groups. You have to add a little to it by making your opponent retreat and then performing a quick strike at the same time.

Raincrow.1840:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Pretty sure you got trolled. Because only a few Maggies actually have the mentality you describe lol.

Well it’s too bad they didn’t pop into their own match up thread and take part in the 2 week debate. Would have been nice to have a true discussion.

Rhyis.7058:

I don’t remember being part of this conversation that this dude is talking about, so apparently I was supposed to save this Rainbow guy from a troll guild nobody cares about.

I didn’t need “saving” LoL, and it’s funny you think it was just one guy when it was far more than that. What you could have done though was take part in a discussion that was going on, and maybe made your server look good. Instead, I guess you let people you think of as trolls do all the talking.

On a side note, Bunzy has been on this server longer than 3 weeks.

I don’t think Maguumans in general care so much as how we are perceived as much as we care about having fun. I think we are the first server to drag the grub to red keep and green keep all in a day’s work.

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

I’m curious why no one has called out a D/D ele for talking about skills in WvW…

I think you will find that most of these types of posts come from D/D Elems, Mesmers, and Thieves because of their ability to 1vN consistently.

There is skill in managing downed states, of course. But, you typically have to sacrifice certain elements of your build to help with that. Although mesmers and thieves can handle downed state situations fairly well using stealth the elem has limited tools.

Zeroumus.5402:

Bunzy.8674:

Zeroumus.5402:

Bunzy.8674:

Zeroumus.5402:

Downed State is fine. What your trying to say is a) You think having your party focus fire on one guy is skill. or b)using typical MMO rouge style attacks is skill. The truth is that neither is a skill, and both are certainly not deep skills. You can do either of these options when there is a large amount of people around to a skilled player.

What the downed state does in these cases is negate shallow skills and gives all players a chance to still be in the fight. If your so called skill is to focuse fire someone and ignore all other aspects of play, the down state makes sure that your shallow skill goes un-rewarded.

Focus fire is not skill. It is still a good idea, but that alone is not skill. If you think it is, then yes, downed state is going to upset you. If you really value skill in video gaming, you should like the downed state as it negates shallow skills.

please save me the post how you will 1on1 me and show me your mad skillz, I am not claiming i am the best player here. I just respect real skill compared to shallow skills

If someone is focusing you:

Move out their range – They will be forced to switch or chase you.
If they switch you can heal up and come back into the fight.
If they chase you the rest of your team will kill them.

I am guessing you stand still and die and then get ressed back up and that’s your counter to it, which is why you like the downed state. Which only proves my point further that it doesn’t promote skillful gameplay… infact it does the opposite.

you kinda of got the wrong idea right off the hop with “If someone is focusing you:” when what i meant was having a group focus one you. it sounds like you are talking about 1on1’s, but if that was the case the downstate should not be a problem in this situation.

-

I come from the school where skill is defined by how you make your your enemy choose the reaction you want them to pick, not by the reactions themselves. Not even by the reactions you make. moving out of the line of fire, running back to your team mates does not mean you have skills, so none of this is even relevent to skill;

If someone is focusing you…..

Move out their range – They will be forced to switch or chase you.
If they switch you can heal up and come back into the fight.
If they chase you the rest of your team will kill them.

….. this is the natural reactions every player has to being attacked if they feel out matched.

The downed state serves to give no reward to shallow skills such as zerging someone. Shallow being defined as asking your group to press “t” on the keyboard before attacking some mystery target you might not be able to see in the zerg. I know i might hurt the feelings of the people who think doing this means their group has skill, but I am just telling it like it is.

If a group is focusing one of you whether the downed state is there or not you will still die, I don’t understand what you are trying to say?

well, its what happens after you die that really matters. At any point, a leader can call a target and tell people to dive in. The real question is was it the right action, was putting all the effort into reducing the enemy by 1 worth the risks. The answer is simple, if your attacking force continued to role on through the opposing group then the tactic was correct, the guy you killed at first never got a rez to begin with. If for some reason you opponents push you back, then that player that got zerged gets back in the fight via a rez

The downed state makes sure that if your attack is 1 dimensional ( insta killing someone ) it goes unrewarded. If your attack is multi dimensional, waiting till you have the correct tactical momentum and then insta killing someone, then it goes rewarded and the downed state has little effect. your enemy cant recover from the downed state if he is behind your front line that you just advanced ( unless your guys are really dumb )

In simple terms it simply makes it so the act of just killing someone real quick with little chance of reaction is not enough to effect the outcome of a fight between groups. You have to add a little to it by making your opponent retreat and then performing a quick strike at the same time.

Excellent post. You have to set things up, which is generally not easy to do on a chaotic battlefield.

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

I don’t think Maguumans in general care so much as how we are perceived as much as we care about having fun. I think we are the first server to drag the grub to red keep and green keep all in a day’s work.

That’s fair…. And I’m glad you guys enjoy yourselves, but if you don’t care about how you’re perceived in the forums, you can’t really argue when others percieve you in a less than flattering way.

Ignoring numbers, WvW is about strategy not skill. Getting the right number of people in the right spot at the right time > pushing the right button at the right time.

Raincrow.1840:

That’s fair…. And I’m glad you guys enjoy yourselves, but if you don’t care about how you’re perceived in the forums, you can’t really argue when others percieve you in a less than flattering way.

We beat CD in the WvWy’s. Maguuma is the peoples champion.

Stiv.1820:

It’s pretty bad when people regularly start attacking nearby mobs when they are starting to loose a fight. You actually have to turn and focus the mob down first or else you have to deal with a mob rally.

I’ve come to terms that downed is here to stay it just needs changes.

1. Same downed health in WvW as sPvP
2. Don’t allow in combat rez from full death.
3. Remove PvE rally in WvW
4. Each additional rezer beyond first should increase the rez speed by less and less.

Excellent suggestions. Some of these I’ve championed before myself but the dimishining returns on rezzers isn’t something I’ve seen suggested before. I think it makes sense.

Oozo.7856:

Stiv.1820:

It’s pretty bad when people regularly start attacking nearby mobs when they are starting to loose a fight. You actually have to turn and focus the mob down first or else you have to deal with a mob rally.

I’ve come to terms that downed is here to stay it just needs changes.

1. Same downed health in WvW as sPvP
2. Don’t allow in combat rez from full death.
3. Remove PvE rally in WvW
4. Each additional rezer beyond first should increase the rez speed by less and less.

Excellent suggestions. Some of these I’ve championed before myself but the dimishining returns on rezzers isn’t something I’ve seen suggested before. I think it makes sense.

I could agree to #2 for sure. if your that dead, ya should stay that way, hell make them walk back from spawn.

Adaneshade.2409:

It’ simply not possible for a 5 man to whittle a 30 man down. It should be, especially if those 5 are highly coordinated and build around that.

This is where we disagree. Skill is (and should be) a force multiplier, but not to the tune of 600 %, regardless of the skill gap.

Some people are unwilling to accept that numbers should be at least as important of a factor as skill in mass PvP. There’s nothing wrong with mechanics that support zerging or bringing overwhelming force. You just have to understand that WvW is not (and should not be) 100 % individual skill based.

Tulisin.6945:

Adaneshade.2409:

It’ simply not possible for a 5 man to whittle a 30 man down. It should be, especially if those 5 are highly coordinated and build around that.

This is where we disagree. Skill is (and should be) a force multiplier, but not to the tune of 600 %, regardless of the skill gap.

Some people are unwilling to accept that numbers should be at least as important of a factor as skill in mass PvP. There’s nothing wrong with mechanics that support zerging or bringing overwhelming force. You just have to understand that WvW is not (and should not be) 100 % individual skill based.

Ya. A 5 man should stay away a 30 man group unless there was some very specific tactical advantage such as being on a ledge. This is not even skill, just common sense. As you suggest, WvW is not individual skill focused, its group skill focused. Purposely having mechanics that allow the typical 5 man group to “effectively” grief a 30 man “consistently” is a poor game design.

The issue of how how many people you bring to counter a 30 man group taking over a camp while the map has 5 other hot spots in progress is a matter of tactics and battle field management. how 25 people can counter 30 men can be a matter of group or individual skill, but 5 against 30 in an open field should just poor battle field tactics.

if you like 1 vs the world, they have zombie shooters for that kinda of simulation.

Pendragon.8735:

dreztina.4820:

I always find it funny when people say ‘go play spvp’ whenever anyone mentions skill on the wvw forum. It’s funny because as soon as someone says it, it tells me they’ve never actually done spvp, or they tried it and were horrible, and it gave them this impression of it being some super highly competitive environment.

They mean paid, organized teams, not hotjoin obviously.

That’s the whole point of sPVP to draw in the competitive small group players.

“Structured PvP is a Player versus Player mode which allows competition on an even footing.”

You mean that incredibly active paid tpvp which requires teams to farm random pugs in free tournaments to get enough tickets to do? Which has insanely long queue times and only a handful of competitive guilds who demolish everyone else who tries? Which isn’t even worth trying to play at a high level if you don’t have a regular team with voice chat and a willingness to play cookie cutter builds with absolutely mandatory skills to compete such as portal mesmers? There’s a reason spvp, tpvp in particular is borderline dead. It really isn’t a viable option for most people, especially if you want to run 1-3 people rather than five.

And on topic, one thing I’d like to see changed, if downed state couldn’t be removed altogether, is to make it so downed people in pvp can only be rezzed by skills. I’d be fine with having to deal with someone getting back up if the flip side was one of their team mates sacrificing an important utility slot to do it.

Rhyis.7058:

Raincrow.1840:

That’s fair…. And I’m glad you guys enjoy yourselves, but if you don’t care about how you’re perceived in the forums, you can’t really argue when others percieve you in a less than flattering way.

We beat CD in the WvWy’s. Maguuma is the peoples champion.

What??

I agree i solo a lot, in fact thats how i normally play while i wait for my friends to gear up their toons but the downed mechanic punishes players for good play.

Perfect example was fighting 3 people, got the thief in a downed state(glass cannon build, landed a nice shatter on him after he spammed ‘number 2’ to catch me) but couldnt finish him off, i needed to remain mobile(because there is still 2 other players) and when i moved in to stake he would either use his teleport or 1 of the other two players would shunt me off or focus dmg(im a mesmer in cloth, i dont take focus fire well even with templated toughness). I have a few options here, i could burn my distortion and go for a stake negating focus fire dmg but it doesnt grant me stability so it’s a bit of a gamble, or i could burn my time warp and hope for a quickness stake, but if it doesnt come off ive burned my timewarp and theres still 2 other players to deal with.

I had nearly dropped player number 2 when the thief rallied, thief rallies i drop player number 2 to a downed state(thanks timewarp). By this time a lot of my slot skills are on cool down to escape said glass cannon thief, i would have liked to stretch the fight out with some extension but i cant get away from the thief who comes back and kills me(with all my stuff on cooldown).

Some things need to change, in this scenario i am being punished for better play than the other players(see thief spamming ‘number 2’ to catch me and using all his initiative), this is before taking the downed state into consideration. If you get up from a downed state you should have a buff that for 20-30 seconds you have a 50% snare, 1/2 hp’s and do 1/2 damage, each time you engage in combat it resets this buff, taking some time out to recuperate clears this buff(20-30 seconds) and you are once again free to enter the fray. Or you are locked off from using your slot skills or weapon skills, or something. Anything to take that combatant out of the combat for a while and say hey, you’ve been downed/defeated, timeout for a while while u gather yourself.

This was present in most other games, if you had just been rezzed you were in dire need of buffs from team mates, low on hp’s, often with some kind of harsh rez debuff that lasted for quite some time. In this game you’ve got a mild loss of HP’s, full dmg, full access to your slot skills.

EasymodeX.4062:

Really, when people die they should die.

Nobody dies in WvW. They are “Downed”, or they are “Defeated”, but never “Dead”.

A small nitpick, but a symptom of a larger mentality that seems to form the foundation for most complaints about this aspect of Anets design. You’re not killing your opponent, you are defeating them – and most heroes are never dead, just lying unconscious in the rubble waiting for someone to find them and help them up.

Bunzy.8674:

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers its time to get rid of or drastically change the downed state.

The cards are in your hands anet, I hope for your sake you play them right.

EDIT: Why are you people talking about sPvP? It still has a downed state o.o

Why don’t you people understand gw2 is not a hardcore pvp game…. please understand that this game is for casual players if you want to show how awesome you are go to w/e game where skill is only thing that matters

Art.9820:

Bunzy.8674:

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers its time to get rid of or drastically change the downed state.

The cards are in your hands anet, I hope for your sake you play them right.

EDIT: Why are you people talking about sPvP? It still has a downed state o.o

Why don’t you people understand gw2 is not a hardcore pvp game…. please understand that this game is for casual players if you want to show how awesome you are go to w/e game where skill is only thing that matters

So since it isn’t a hardcore pvp game, pvp should just be kitten and have a garbage design.

kittening brilliant why didn’t I see the light before.

kidbs.8920:

sPvP isn’t a skills-based game either. It’s all about bunker builds and who can turtle on a point the longest.

This game is still very much about certain builds and team comps more so than actual skill.

Its skill based.

Name a game that isnt very much about certain builds and team comps? Min maxing happens in EVERY SINGLE GAME. And you do it if you want to win.

Playing an RTS? Pump out the same units pretty much every match?

Playing League of Legends and following the metagame much?

Playing gw1 and running 2 monks?

Playing Gw2 and running bunkers?

Picking up the same weapons every time in counterstrike?

If you can customize people will always gravitate to the things that tend to win. Metagames develop and matches are decided by skill. If you and your opponent/opponents are running the same build/setup, the team that wins would be deemed the most skilled in a competative format. sPvP has that. You win sPvP because you were better than your opponent.

On the same token saying downstate detracts from skillful play is a misnomer. These ‘skilled’ people that seem to whine about it are people that have the dps figured out but dont have the next important part of the game figured out is finishing enemies. It can be done, has been done, and you should learn how to do it instead of resorting to rubbish whining on the forums.

As for me I use the downstate in wvw to help us win fights where we are outnumbered.

Bunzy.8674:

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers its time to get rid of or drastically change the downed state.

The cards are in your hands anet, I hope for your sake you play them right.

EDIT: Why are you people talking about sPvP? It still has a downed state o.o

No
reason 1 : bursts : an pvp can last under 1 second
reason 2: mesmer portal bombs combined with lagg (server lagg not personal pc lagg)
reason 3: stealth

and with :The cards are in your hands anet, I hope for your sake you play them right.
you won’t solve much. A net likes the downed state, major part of comunity like it. Why would anybody play your card?

""but dont have the next important part of the game figured out is finishing enemies""

I think i have it figured out reasonably well, see my above scenario, i could bank on a tw stomp working but if it doesnt come off ive wasted tw for no gain(with still 2 players up, as the scenario played out i used tw to drop player 2) or i could try a distortion stomp to negate the focus DPS i will take when i stand still for 3 seconds to stomp with distortion. Distortion unfortunately doesnt grant me stability so just 1 knockback, pull, knockdown and ive wasted that as well.

You could argue that i should have tried the tw stomp anyway, but its a gamble, i can go ‘the here and now’ lets try and finish this thief by burning everything and hope i can pull through against the other 2 players or as it turns out i chose to hold it out and dropped player 2 with it. Had i used it to stomp im not sure i would have been able to drop that player with a lot of my stuff on cool down that i burned to stomp a player that has already been defeated because he chose to burn 90% of his initiative spamming hs to catch me.

I would like to add im not advocating removal of the mechanic, just some alterations as to how it functions.

Chorazin.4107:

Perfect example was fighting 3 people… I had nearly dropped player number 2 when the thief rallied, thief rallies i drop player number 2 to a downed state(thanks timewarp). By this time a lot of my slot skills are on cool down to escape said glass cannon thief, i would have liked to stretch the fight out with some extension but i cant get away from the thief who comes back and kills me(with all my stuff on cooldown).
…
Some things need to change, in this scenario i am being punished for better play than the other players
…

So you were fighting 1v3, successfully downed two of the three opponents on your own, and you’re being “punished” because you couldn’t finish off all three?

Doesn’t sound to me like the downed state is negating your skill, sounds to me like you did exceptionally well against unfavorable circumstances, but that numbers still won out over skill, as it should.

Art.9820:

Why don’t you people understand gw2 is not a hardcore pvp game…. please understand that this game is for casual players if you want to show how awesome you are go to w/e game where skill is only thing that matters

The funniest part of this is that going to arguably one of the most “hardcore” large-scale PvP environments, EVE Online, and proclaiming that you want to win against >300 % of your numbers because of your amazing skills would get you laughed out of town. Now there’s a game where the community has recognized that decisive objective-based combat rests on the back of masses of average skilled players who can listen to instruction, leadership, resource management, and strategy, not individual player skill.

There’s a place for “elite” small-numbers combat, but it isn’t on the opposite side of the field from a massive zerg.

Chorazin

""but dont have the next important part of the game figured out is finishing enemies""
I think i have it figured out reasonably well, see my above scenario, i could bank on a tw stomp working but if it doesnt come off ive wasted tw for no gain(with still 2 players up, as the scenario played out i used tw to drop player 2) or i could try a distortion stomp to negate the focus DPS i will take when i stand still for 3 seconds to stomp with distortion. Distortion unfortunately doesnt grant me stability so just 1 knockback, pull, knockdown and ive wasted that as well.
You could argue that i should have tried the tw stomp anyway, but its a gamble, i can go ‘the here and now’ lets try and finish this thief by burning everything and hope i can pull through against the other 2 players or as it turns out i chose to hold it out and dropped player 2 with it. Had i used it to stomp im not sure i would have been able to drop that player with a lot of my stuff on cool down that i burned to stomp a player that has already been defeated because he chose to burn 90% of his initiative spamming hs to catch me.

Being skilled at manipulating the downed state means more than “which stomp should I choose”, sometimes it means resorting to direct damage to finish, sometimes means not stomping at all and merely keeping an opponent from rallying themselves. There’s a meta around the downed state, and it doesn’t start when an opponent goes down.

Down state is fine, rally need to be removed. I can cc people trying to rez, but I can’t help that some random bad decides to charge in and die to rally 10+.

I wouldn’t mind the ability to kill my own team either though

Tulisin.6945:

Art.9820:

Why don’t you people understand gw2 is not a hardcore pvp game…. please understand that this game is for casual players if you want to show how awesome you are go to w/e game where skill is only thing that matters

The funniest part of this is that going to arguably one of the most “hardcore” large-scale PvP environments, EVE Online, and proclaiming that you want to win against >300 % of your numbers because of your amazing skills would get you laughed out of town. Now there’s a game where the community has recognized that decisive objective-based combat rests on the back of masses of average skilled players who can listen to instruction, leadership, resource management, and strategy, not individual player skill.

There’s a place for “elite” small-numbers combat, but it isn’t on the opposite side of the field from a massive zerg.

Chorazin

""but dont have the next important part of the game figured out is finishing enemies""
I think i have it figured out reasonably well, see my above scenario, i could bank on a tw stomp working but if it doesnt come off ive wasted tw for no gain(with still 2 players up, as the scenario played out i used tw to drop player 2) or i could try a distortion stomp to negate the focus DPS i will take when i stand still for 3 seconds to stomp with distortion. Distortion unfortunately doesnt grant me stability so just 1 knockback, pull, knockdown and ive wasted that as well.
You could argue that i should have tried the tw stomp anyway, but its a gamble, i can go ‘the here and now’ lets try and finish this thief by burning everything and hope i can pull through against the other 2 players or as it turns out i chose to hold it out and dropped player 2 with it. Had i used it to stomp im not sure i would have been able to drop that player with a lot of my stuff on cool down that i burned to stomp a player that has already been defeated because he chose to burn 90% of his initiative spamming hs to catch me.

Being skilled at manipulating the downed state means more than “which stomp should I choose”, sometimes it means resorting to direct damage to finish, sometimes means not stomping at all and merely keeping an opponent from rallying themselves. There’s a meta around the downed state, and it doesn’t start when an opponent goes down.

The guardian bubble is annoying. The thief teleport is annoying the mesmer teleport is annoying the ranger pet heal is annoying… On and on… All usually delay inevitable especially for 1v1 fights. But remove them no. Because there are alot of times when it comes down to two downed players fighting each other from the downed state and its awesome! lol.

jportell.2197:

All usually delay inevitable especially for 1v1 fights

Delaying the inevitable is the name of the game for 1v1 when someone goes down. The first person to go down is the loser unless traits/terrain interfere, and honestly there’s nothing wrong with that. This is the same reason complaints about stealth stomps in 1v1 are invalid, if you’re downed first it doesn’t really matter if they’re executing a special stomp.

Every game has mechanics. If you were skilled you would learn to deal with the downed state. If you cannot deal with the downed state, you are not skilled. Pretty simple.

TLDR: These stupid anti-downed state posts are always from the bunny jumping alpha strike crowd who want to gank. I’m a warrior in a 10v10 fight, I killshot you from range while you are engaged with my 2 buddies, you dead, hur hur, you suck, I win.

How is that skill?

There are some class imbalances in the downed state and Rally-vs-PVE is kinda lame (but we still deal with it) but the rest is fine.

Chorazin.4107:

""but dont have the next important part of the game figured out is finishing enemies""

I think i have it figured out reasonably well, see my above scenario, i could bank on a tw stomp working but if it doesnt come off ive wasted tw for no gain(with still 2 players up, as the scenario played out i used tw to drop player 2) or i could try a distortion stomp to negate the focus DPS i will take when i stand still for 3 seconds to stomp with distortion. Distortion unfortunately doesnt grant me stability so just 1 knockback, pull, knockdown and ive wasted that as well.

You could argue that i should have tried the tw stomp anyway, but its a gamble, i can go ‘the here and now’ lets try and finish this thief by burning everything and hope i can pull through against the other 2 players or as it turns out i chose to hold it out and dropped player 2 with it. Had i used it to stomp im not sure i would have been able to drop that player with a lot of my stuff on cool down that i burned to stomp a player that has already been defeated because he chose to burn 90% of his initiative spamming hs to catch me.

Often when i’m in an outnumbered situation ill be looking to control the enemy team to prevent them from rezzing, while preventing downed players from healing themselves. Rarely i go for invun stomps. Often my damage is enough to finish them off while i’m preventing the lone enemy from attempting to res. If someone attempts to res you can shatter burst him again, hitting both the downed player and the live player at the same time.

If your in a 3v1 situation its usually best to just book it, unless you severely outmatch them or can groupshatter them because they carelessly clumped. In other RPG games there are healers, and you walking into 2 dps and 1 healer would get you killed without you doing much in downing anything unless the healer was dumb.

In the situation you outlined I would have gone for an quickness invun stomp, then retreated out of the fight. if you didnt tw then the thief is going to tp on you and stop the stomp. You ended up burning tw anyway and not getting away, so you misplayed your hand, which is a demonstration of a lack of skill.

Part of the skill in wvw is learning when to fight, when to stomp, when to flee, or when you are forced to fight to the death and how to make the best out of it.

Mian.1945:

Every game has mechanics. If you were skilled you would learn to deal with the downed state. If you cannot deal with the downed state, you are not skilled. Pretty simple.

TLDR: These stupid anti-downed state posts are always from the bunny jumping alpha strike crowd who want to gank. I’m a warrior in a 10v10 fight, I killshot you from range while you are engaged with my 2 buddies, you dead, hur hur, you suck, I win.

How is that skill?

There are some class imbalances in the downed state and Rally-vs-PVE is kinda lame (but we still deal with it) but the rest is fine.

the skill would be dodging the kill shot before it hits you.. it has a long enough animation.

Its very hard to track 10 different targets in a fight. While KS has a long animation it can be done when the warrior is out of your FoV. On the subject of skill though, I would say you were very skillful if you can track all 10 targets and only dodge abilities that will spell your doom.

Imagine you are a professional tight rope walker.

The downed state is like your safety net if you make a mistake you have something to catch you.

Eventually you need the courage to take the steps without having a safety net to catch you, just rely on your skills to walk the line successfully. I can understand why people are hesitant because they don’t want to die if they fall. Have courage it won’t be that bad.

Getting rid of downed state would allow servers with larger numbers to just steam roll the smaller numbers and cause a imbalanced in WvW. Smaller number servers being outnumber in WvW rely on the downed states to revive team members quicker which keeps there numbers a little more reasonable.

The solution to your problem is get used to the F key to finish them off instead of whining about it. As I saw someoe else post “it is fine as it is”.

NightFox.3957:

Getting rid of downed state would allow servers with larger numbers to just steam roll the smaller numbers and cause a imbalanced in WvW. Smaller number servers being outnumber in WvW rely on the downed states to revive team members quicker which keeps there numbers a little more reasonable.

The solution to your problem is get used to the F key to finish them off instead of whining about it. As I saw someoe else post “it is fine as it is”.

I believe it would be the exact opposite. Zerglings, by nature, are terrible at PvP. A good group of PvPers that only has to kill them once could mop up vs greater numbers way more easily if they couldn’t pop back up……

NightFox.3957:

Getting rid of downed state would allow servers with larger numbers to just steam roll the smaller numbers and cause a imbalanced in WvW. Smaller number servers being outnumber in WvW rely on the downed states to revive team members quicker which keeps there numbers a little more reasonable.

The solution to your problem is get used to the F key to finish them off instead of whining about it. As I saw someoe else post “it is fine as it is”.

You have absolutely no idea how large scale PvP in this game works. Go back to being a terribad zergling.

I am a Super Skilled Dude and I support removing the downed state in WvW. It’s a soft cap on small scale success, and anyone who can’t see that doesn’t grasp how basic systems interact or is irrationally afraid of change.

Bunzy.8674:

Imagine you are a professional tight rope walker.

The downed state is like your safety net if you make a mistake you have something to catch you.

Eventually you need the courage to take the steps without having a safety net to catch you, just rely on your skills to walk the line successfully. I can understand why people are hesitant because they don’t want to die if they fall. Have courage it won’t be that bad.

More like you’re the juggler and the downed state is flaming torches. “Real jugglers don’t use flaming torches”, plus you don’t really want to deal with learning how to juggle the flaming ones, so you just juggle balls and try to convince everyone that fire torches are silly.

Aside from crazy circus analogies, the downed state is a part of combat in GW2, not something that happens after combat ends.

Pinko.2076:

It’s a soft cap on small scale success

The problem isn’t with this assertion, the problem is with the assertion that this is a bad thing. Like the 5-man AE cap, the downed state helps check skill and ensure that, at some point, numbers are more important.

I kinda agree with Bunzy on the heal after death thing. But only kinda.

Taking away either mechanic prevents a major comeback.

How about this:

On death (after downed state) a 1-, 2-, or even 5-minute timer starts on the corpse. If players don’t get to that corpse to start healing it, then that corpse is instantly teleported to the nearest uncontested WP.

Does that sound good? I know people have been constantly complaining about corpse-spying, so this might work for that as well.

Tulisin.6945:

Pinko.2076:

It’s a soft cap on small scale success

The problem isn’t with this assertion, the problem is with the assertion that this is a bad thing. Like the 5-man AE cap, the downed state helps check skill and ensure that, at some point, numbers are more important.

Numbers would be important because it’s more people trying vs less people trying. More offensive potential vs less offensive potential. More utilities to throw vs less utilities to throw. There already exists a numbers advantage in basic Bodies vs Bodies, so I don’t understand why people want both an advantage AND a comeback mechanic in case they squander their advantage.

Let’s remember that the removal of downed state is NOT the removal of hard ressing. This essentially means that a soft cap will still exist, but it will be ~3-4x harder to reach because of the in combat res speeds.

Let’s also remember the impact this has on the meta of glass cannon builds. I play a glass cannon, because I take advantage of running with a smart squad, and if I do go down, it’s way too easy to get back up. I’d be way more likely to tailor another utility slot and maybe ~3-4 slots to more defense if I didn’t have a giant soft idiot proof pillow below me. I don’t care about the glass cannon meta, but a lot of posters in this forums hate it, so maybe that can persuade some people.

Sporadicus.1028:

I kinda agree with Bunzy on the heal after death thing. But only kinda.

Taking away either mechanic prevents a major comeback.

How about this:

On death (after downed state) a 1-, 2-, or even 5-minute timer starts on the corpse. If players don’t get to that corpse to start healing it, then that corpse is instantly teleported to the nearest uncontested WP.

Does that sound good? I know people have been constantly complaining about corpse-spying, so this might work for that as well.

You could make the corpse attackable. Start at half health (maybe double it, so rez time is the same). If the corpse reaches 0 health then they’re forced to respawn.
Make a channeled move, like the stake, that will burn a body, rapidly causing damage.
No more corpse spying, cleaning up after a zerg before it gets back is fairly simple, and no more staring at that 90% corpse in the middle of a siege knowing there’s nothing you can actually do to stop it from getting up soon.

Pinko.2076:

Let’s also remember the impact this has on the meta of glass cannon builds. I play a glass cannon, because I take advantage of running with a smart squad, and if I do go down, it’s way too easy to get back up. I’d be way more likely to tailor another utility slot and maybe ~3-4 slots to more defense if I didn’t have a giant soft idiot proof pillow below me. I don’t care about the glass cannon meta, but a lot of posters in this forums hate it, so maybe that can persuade some people.

This is a fair point, but the corollary is that a glassier build will necessarily spend more time in the downed state, regardless of how quickly and readily they can get back from it. If the more defense-minded build goes down once but the glassy build goes down thrice then the disadvantage of less defense has been realized even if it didn’t result in a final defeat. The downed state meta is already, to a large degree, self-correcting. It isn’t perfect, but the system as-is is much better than the vast majority of player suggestions to “fix” it.

The issue at hand isn’t really “can the downed state be changed”, of course it can, but whether the change would be good for the game is another question.

zastari.1730:

Art.9820:

Bunzy.8674:

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers its time to get rid of or drastically change the downed state.

The cards are in your hands anet, I hope for your sake you play them right.

EDIT: Why are you people talking about sPvP? It still has a downed state o.o

Why don’t you people understand gw2 is not a hardcore pvp game…. please understand that this game is for casual players if you want to show how awesome you are go to w/e game where skill is only thing that matters

So since it isn’t a hardcore pvp game, pvp should just be kitten and have a garbage design.

kittening brilliant why didn’t I see the light before.

I just find amazing how you’re convinced about your opinion and that everyone thinks your way, well sorry you should start your own game! please I beg you :P I dislike people who only drop garbage talk, explain to me how removing downed state will make the game more skilled? you can’t beat someone who is in this state? then I wonder who lacks of skill, TO ME if you actually pay attention this is another obstacle which requieres more skill and thinking from players, btw WvW doesn’t care about your 1v1 keep that in mind, I do play d/d & thief (1v1 class and build), I kill people all the time, 1v1 a lot yet I don’t care about only downing sometimes why? this way you can easily distract 3 or 4 players even if its only for 5 secs, let’s be honest this is more related to you and your OWN experience and lack of skill on dealing with downed state please do not generalize your opinion

Downed state is a mechanic you have to figure into your strategy if you’re going against a larger force, and it’s part of being “skilful”. It’s very much possible to come out on top while outnumbered and it’s definitely not a broken mechanic, so if you’re trying to propose to remove such a feature because you can’t figure out a way to do so, maybe you should take another look at your own skills. Downed state is an important feature of gw2 combat, so instead of wasting time campaigning to remove it, work towards overcoming it.

Opc.4718:

Downed state is a mechanic you have to figure into your strategy if you’re going against a larger force, and it’s part of being “skilful”. It’s very much possible to come out on top while outnumbered and it’s definitely not a broken mechanic, so if you’re trying to propose to remove such a feature because you can’t figure out a way to do so, maybe you should take another look at your own skills. Downed state is an important feature of gw2 combat, so instead of wasting time campaigning to remove it, work towards overcoming it.

Downed state is not part of being skillful. Its part of wasting abilities and time on people that should already be dead.

If you are skillful enough to take on 5 players you should not be punished for it which is what’s currently happening.

Incorrect. It takes skill to handle downstate.

You might personally dislike it, but its there and you have to account for it. If you fail to account for it, you are failing that skillset.

Removing downstate removes depth from the combat system. Sure it might be depth that you do not like, as you seem to think it means easy comebacks and more advantages to players you should defeat, but I think of it as another tool in my basket.