Guild Wars 2

EnRohbi.2187:

…Because you can’t tell me that you honestly see there being a real solution to your problem anytime in the near future.
We could talk all day and night about what Anet COULD do to fix the problem, but if you look at things Anet has said in the past, and things they’ve done in the past, you’ll see that it very unlikely they’ll be doing anything that would really help tier 8. With the exception of maybe putting a ratings floor into it to prevent servers from becoming too far lost, but that is not a solution for imbalanced matches, only for stagnant imbalanced matches.

I hate the fact that you are probably right. I also hate the advice to move on. I can’t do it. It’s just not in me to do so. Nothing noble by any means, just not in my make up. I try to limit my kittening though, because you are definitely right on one thing, it is my choice to stay.

EnRohbi.2187:

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

EnRohbi.2187:

If you had a game with bugs and problems in just about every single aspect of the entire thing. What would you fix first? The issues that affect everyone, or the issues that affect like 5% of the playerbase?
No, I do not know for a stated fact that Anet will not prioritize tier 8, but they would be foolish to do so when there are so many other areas of the game that need to be fixed first.

Also,
If anyone in tier 8 actually looked at the ratings lately,
They would see SF gaining 40-50 points this week, and being less than 100 ratings points away from HoD’s score.
The system is balancing itself out, just as it should.

But of course, after a few weeks of HoD steamrolling tier 8, you’ll all be back here complaining about that too.

Do you know what you are typing? First, the system balancing itself out is taking over 3 MONTHS. That is not just as it should unless you know specifically that Anet intended this?

And if it happens to HoD, is your solution for all of them to transfer also? That is not fixing anything and you know it. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I know exactly what I’m typing, that’s why I typed it.
The system is working as intended. The playerbase balance is kittened, sure, but the system is working the way it was designed to work.

Anet intended a scoring system to keep the most evenly matched servers facing against each other. The system itself is not built to have volatile matches, it is built for quite the opposite, to keep servers in place until there’s a power shift.

ET and FC are in a kittenty place. Never denied that. They are two servers that are so far separated in terms of coverage that there is no third server in the game that would be a balanced match against them. And it sucks for them. But unless you expect Anet to start merging servers (Which isn’t gonna happen. At least not to fix a WvW problem.), then it’s about time that tier 8 learns to accept that that is the reality of the game.

Now,
Would you like to have a conversation or would you like to just keep trying to imply I’m trolling you? Because your crying troll is getting a little old for me.

PS: If I were a troll, the fact I’ve kept you going so long would warrant this a complete success.

Again, you state your beliefs as facts and they simply are not. As you admitted in another post you do NOT know what Anet intends or why they planned certain things a certain way.

And telling people they have to transfer to “fix” Anet’s broken system is basically the same as them merging servers. So no go there either.

And you still (how many times do I have to type this) are not answering the questions directed at you. You are still, what was it, “disrupting normal on-topic discussion”.

Heck, I’d be satisfied with this ultimately stale matchup if the borderland colors were randomized each matchup and not just put based upon your world’s ranking.

Seriously, FC was blue for over a month and a half before people stopped caring and we dropped to red. My Gifts of Exploration aren’t going to explore themselves, but I’ll be kittened if I’m going to abandon my home world for two kitteny vistas in Sorrow’s Furnace (and I’d sooner take poison than run with the small group that keeps abusing mesmer Portals to clip into walls then proceeds to die in the main rooms of fortified keeps, towers, etc. Which, speaking of which, I wish there was an abuse report option for that.)

2 questions, 2 answers:

1. why a rating floor/cap?

its a way to artificially condense ratings and make the system act like the competitor population is big enough. if there is an average ~50 point gap between each server, servers can float between matches much quicker and settle into the proper places. if there is an average ~100 point gap between each server, the randomness of the gaps can accidentally produce much larger gaps between specific servers. we currently have a total spread of about 1600 rating with 24 servers, meaning average gap of 66, max gap of around 300. capping ratings at 1100 and 1900 (with original ratings of 1500) will produce a worst case scenario gap of around 150, which is a surmountable obstacle with the current gain/loss math, unlike 300. capping at 900 and 2100 should force a max gap of about 225, still surmountable.

an additional benefit is that rating will not be allowed to be “stolen” from the bottom and “hoarded” at the top, because once servers naturally drift towards the caps, the pretty-close-to-zero-sum ratings changes will not allow for servers to continuously be pummeled into tier 8 or claw their way into tier 1 at the expense of the other tiers’ rating, and servers will have the chance to drop out of tier 1, or drop into tier 8.

2. why a soft reset? when should we do a reset?

prevent large gaps from forming in the middle tiers. we have decent pairings. a soft reset does not break up the pairings. however, resets could be automated to occur any time 200+ point gaps develop, because gaps that large start to screw with the math and hold servers in matches way longer than anyone deserves to bear. place servers at even intervals filling the entire span between the caps. volatility will not be increased any more than it should be.

Stoneslammer.3650:

MikeFerguson.8921:

Catisa.6507:

There is no system in the world that’s ever going to compensate for server transfers, or guilds taking a break from wvw, or differences in primetime play hours.

Pretty much this. We use gliko to help make sure the matches end up being somewhat competitive, but no systems can really predict and react immediately to constantly changing populations.

While glicko may not be the greatest thing to use for tiered competition, I think it’s actually worked fairly well to help ensure that a large portion of our matches end up being competitive. We haven’t been seeing nearly as many lopsided blowouts happening as we continue to have more matches being played out and then feeding those results into the formulas. The obvious exception to that being the worlds who either lose or gain large amounts of players in a short period of time and get caught in a matchup where they get dominated or are the dominating force.

However, even with all the issues glicko presents, we have seen that while it takes a few weeks for the system to adjust to the population shifts, it DOES adjust, and eventually those worlds end up playing in competitive games again once they reach a tier that suits their current population.

And yes, we need to get paid server transfers in. We all agree with that statement, and we’re trying to make it happen as soon as we can, while still making sure the guesting system is as useful and easy to use as possible. We’re agonizingly close, so hopefully soon we can stop talking about it and just do it!

Do you guys really need to hire a rocket scientist to tell you to suspend server transfers until you put in place a paid transfer system that every other MMO in excistance already uses, if they allow transfers at all. How many players do you want to lose by inaction?

Transfers are already Gem based aka paid transfers…..

Sharing this conversation Ungood and I had in one of the other threads, as it’s quite relevant to the topic at hand…

Manoa.5897:

Ungood.3054:

Anyone with a competitive spirit would not want to be comfortable. Comfort breeds boredom, like doing a dungeon a hundred times, after a while, it becomes stale and stagnant, and you want to move on to something more, something new, something challenging.

That is why games put out new content all the time, that is why gamers want new content, or new games, or something to work for. They don’t want tedium to set in, hence why we play games.

And a gamer that wants to play competitive games, like WvWvW or PvP, while may enjoy the noob stomp from time to time, what really pulls a player into WvWvW is the hard fights, the tight fights, and the times when you bust though the wall and all chaos breaks loose.

Those are the moments that pull you back to the field.

Exactly!

I feel this video sums it up nicely. Methinks ANet’s WvW development team needs to walk down the hall and have a nice little chat with one of their company’s level artists.

http://youtu.be/fOdgQbZW2Xo

Manoa.5897:

Ungood.3054:

Manoa.5897:

I feel this video sums it up nicely. Methinks ANet’s WvW development team needs to walk down the hall and have a nice little chat with one of their company’s level artists.

http://youtu.be/fOdgQbZW2Xo

That was a cool video! Thank you!

Anytime! I stumbled upon it during the Mad King Jumping Puzzle outcry and love it.

Also, I feel the need to point out that the Sisyphean task should be the opponents, not the rating system itself.

SF is certainly the Sisyphean task for ET and FC, who have used the insurmountable odds and risk of failure to learn, grow and develop their strategies. (ET especially…seriously, hats off to ET for their defensive siege, I’m taking notes ). And there’s a pride of accomplishment when they overcome all odds to take an objective.

But for SF, the Sisyphean task (and our real enemy) is the rating system itself, not our WvW opponents. When the rating system is our Sisyphean task, there’s no risk for failure, no opportunity to learn, develop and grow. And no sense of accomplishment when we curbsomp the opposition for yet another week. Just frustration when our rating stagnates or backslides. With such stagnation and lack of challenge, people grow bored and seek out new challenges (either in PvE or in other servers).

Please know that this post isn’t intended to be a “poor pity us, the curbstompin’ winners.” But to illustrate the problem when you shift the Sisyphean task from WvW opponents to the rating system itself with the hope that any ArenaNet folks who may be reading understand why a certain level of volatility in the rating system is really needed.

Here is the issue. Free Transfers messed up the system, that means that as Anet sees it the problem is not glicko and it’s not the math. So they can’t “fix” those things, because there is nothing actually wrong with them.

The problem is that thanks to Kain and DR pulling out with massive influxes of people, the numbers in T8 got skewed. This was made very clear on week 1, when SF went to T8 and lost to FC which at the the time was rated at a 600 point world and SF was a 980 point world. The following week, SF won, but both fights by a very tight margin. This means that FC was really around a 975 Point world.

To expound on that: Detharos.3157 explained that SF really had the numbers and power to be a T6 world. Glicko makes it clear that SF is 300 points ahead of FC and ET, Week 1 showed that FC could beat a 980 point world and should be around 972 points. To express that with simple math.

975 (Where FC should be) + 300 (Glicko’s Power Disparity) = 1275, which would put SF Smack dab in the middle of T6, exactly as one of more adept WvWvW scholars would put SF.

SF is however stuck in T8 now because Kain received a 1200 point boon in player power within a very short time frame, this shot down FC and ET’s numbers below where they should have and would have been in a more stable environment and thus generated an artificially low number.

Glicko did what it could and responded to the situation within 4 matches, but by that time the damage had been done, because Glicko as a system it is not designed for an environment where players can that drastically and swiftly alter the power of a world. The fault here however was not with Glicko, but Anet giving the players the ability to screw the system and screw with it, they did, in spades.

In short, this meant that thanks to Free Transfers and people band-wagoning to Kain, a 700 point world was artificially boosted to a 1900 world, and then pit against two 900 point worlds under the false pretense that it was a 700 point world. that is what smashed the T8 rating.

Glicko is not the problem, as a system it works, and does it’s job so well that almost every pvp game out there uses it or a variant of it. The problem was Free Transfers allowing players to screw up the system, and screw it up, they did.

But players screwing with the system is why T8 is a sink hole today.

So with the end of Free Transfers Anet should have reset the system, and it would have corrected itself in short order, a floor would not need to be put in.

Why Anet did not do it, I am not sure, their motive was their own, but because they didn’t, the messed up numbers due to Free Transfers remain, but thanks to the ability of a Glicko system being able to correct itself somewhat, only T8 really took the largest burden, but this is because T8 could not move.

On week 1 when SF came down, we see growth in the numbers at T8 and a sign that the system could begin to correct, but then in week 3 SF got an influx of people and began to smash the system again however, they did not receive enough of a boost to pull out, and instead crated a sink hole they are now stuck in.

The only way for this to be fixed is for Anet to rest the numbers, Or at this point, for SF to back off, let ET and FC gain numbers again and build back up to 900 point worlds where we belong, and allow us the players to correct the system that us the players screwed up in the first place. But I doubt that something likely to happen, because like SF asking ET and FC to back off and just let them pull out fell on deaf ears, I know that asking SF to just hold their numbers, and let ET and FC build up their own, would be pointless as well.

Which is why many of us want another server to come down, which hopefully will be more apt to our power level and with Free Transfers ended, that will give us something to fight that we can fight and gain our numbers back up to where they should be.

^ Simple reset would be nice, maybe (and I laugh as i say this) it will happen when the WvW patch is deployed.

Ungood is 100% right. It should have happened after free transfers stopped.

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

EnRohbi.2187:

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

EnRohbi.2187:

If you had a game with bugs and problems in just about every single aspect of the entire thing. What would you fix first? The issues that affect everyone, or the issues that affect like 5% of the playerbase?
No, I do not know for a stated fact that Anet will not prioritize tier 8, but they would be foolish to do so when there are so many other areas of the game that need to be fixed first.

Also,
If anyone in tier 8 actually looked at the ratings lately,
They would see SF gaining 40-50 points this week, and being less than 100 ratings points away from HoD’s score.
The system is balancing itself out, just as it should.

But of course, after a few weeks of HoD steamrolling tier 8, you’ll all be back here complaining about that too.

Do you know what you are typing? First, the system balancing itself out is taking over 3 MONTHS. That is not just as it should unless you know specifically that Anet intended this?

And if it happens to HoD, is your solution for all of them to transfer also? That is not fixing anything and you know it. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I know exactly what I’m typing, that’s why I typed it.
The system is working as intended. The playerbase balance is kittened, sure, but the system is working the way it was designed to work.

Anet intended a scoring system to keep the most evenly matched servers facing against each other. The system itself is not built to have volatile matches, it is built for quite the opposite, to keep servers in place until there’s a power shift.

ET and FC are in a kittenty place. Never denied that. They are two servers that are so far separated in terms of coverage that there is no third server in the game that would be a balanced match against them. And it sucks for them. But unless you expect Anet to start merging servers (Which isn’t gonna happen. At least not to fix a WvW problem.), then it’s about time that tier 8 learns to accept that that is the reality of the game.

Now,
Would you like to have a conversation or would you like to just keep trying to imply I’m trolling you? Because your crying troll is getting a little old for me.

PS: If I were a troll, the fact I’ve kept you going so long would warrant this a complete success.

Again, you state your beliefs as facts and they simply are not. As you admitted in another post you do NOT know what Anet intends or why they planned certain things a certain way.

And telling people they have to transfer to “fix” Anet’s broken system is basically the same as them merging servers. So no go there either.

And you still (how many times do I have to type this) are not answering the questions directed at you. You are still, what was it, “disrupting normal on-topic discussion”.

Please stop responding to me,
You are not contributing to the thread at all, you are just telling me what you think is wrong with my posts.

EnRohbi.2187:

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

EnRohbi.2187:

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

EnRohbi.2187:

If you had a game with bugs and problems in just about every single aspect of the entire thing. What would you fix first? The issues that affect everyone, or the issues that affect like 5% of the playerbase?
No, I do not know for a stated fact that Anet will not prioritize tier 8, but they would be foolish to do so when there are so many other areas of the game that need to be fixed first.

Also,
If anyone in tier 8 actually looked at the ratings lately,
They would see SF gaining 40-50 points this week, and being less than 100 ratings points away from HoD’s score.
The system is balancing itself out, just as it should.

But of course, after a few weeks of HoD steamrolling tier 8, you’ll all be back here complaining about that too.

Do you know what you are typing? First, the system balancing itself out is taking over 3 MONTHS. That is not just as it should unless you know specifically that Anet intended this?

And if it happens to HoD, is your solution for all of them to transfer also? That is not fixing anything and you know it. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I know exactly what I’m typing, that’s why I typed it.
The system is working as intended. The playerbase balance is kittened, sure, but the system is working the way it was designed to work.

Anet intended a scoring system to keep the most evenly matched servers facing against each other. The system itself is not built to have volatile matches, it is built for quite the opposite, to keep servers in place until there’s a power shift.

ET and FC are in a kittenty place. Never denied that. They are two servers that are so far separated in terms of coverage that there is no third server in the game that would be a balanced match against them. And it sucks for them. But unless you expect Anet to start merging servers (Which isn’t gonna happen. At least not to fix a WvW problem.), then it’s about time that tier 8 learns to accept that that is the reality of the game.

Now,
Would you like to have a conversation or would you like to just keep trying to imply I’m trolling you? Because your crying troll is getting a little old for me.

PS: If I were a troll, the fact I’ve kept you going so long would warrant this a complete success.

Again, you state your beliefs as facts and they simply are not. As you admitted in another post you do NOT know what Anet intends or why they planned certain things a certain way.

And telling people they have to transfer to “fix” Anet’s broken system is basically the same as them merging servers. So no go there either.

And you still (how many times do I have to type this) are not answering the questions directed at you. You are still, what was it, “disrupting normal on-topic discussion”.

Please stop responding to me,
You are not contributing to the thread at all, you are just telling me what you think is wrong with my posts.

but we dont actually know if there is a decent third server for us because the only server weve gotten to face since the end of free transfers got trapped with us and cant break free despite unequivocally showing the world they dont belong with us…

why do you still say we dont have a potentially good pairing when you cant know that?

Ungood.3054:

Quoting this made the post too long to submit

The problem with just reseting the scores is that there are balance problems through all tiers. Tier 8 is the only tier that’s really going to benefit from a ratings reset. (Yes, I’m aware many of my arguments are along the lines of “Anet won’t upset the many to fix the problems of the few”, but it’s still valid here).

I spoke out a lot against the ratings reset when they had it planned, because of how they had it planned to execute. If a ratings reset were accompanied by 24-72 hour matches again (To “Gather data”, just like after launch), I would strongly support the move.

The issue being that if they JUST reset the ratings and then leave it to sort itself out with 7 day matches, it’d take many weeks where every tier would be unbalanced. I was honestly surprised they’d chosen to cancel the score reset instead of just shortening matches for a week or two.

Either way,
SF is getting closer and closer to HoD’s rating,
If everyone in tier 8 is correct and HoD would be a more balanced match than SF is, then this will sort itself out in another couple weeks.
If everyone in tier 8 is wrong and HoD stomps them as much as SF has been, then no amount of ratings resets or tampering with Glicko will solve anything either.

Ungood.3054:

Here is the issue. Free Transfers messed up the system, that means that as Anet sees it the problem is not glicko and it’s not the math. So they can’t “fix” those things, because there is nothing actually wrong with them.

The problem is that thanks to Kain and DR pulling out with massive influxes of people, the numbers in T8 got skewed. This was made very clear on week 1, when SF went to T8 and lost to FC which at the the time was rated at a 600 point world and SF was a 980 point world. The following week, SF won, but both fights by a very tight margin. This means that FC was really around a 975 Point world.

To expound on that: Detharos.3157 explained that SF really had the numbers and power to be a T6 world. Glicko makes it clear that SF is 300 points ahead of FC and ET, Week 1 showed that FC could beat a 980 point world and should be around 972 points. To express that with simple math.

975 (Where FC should be) + 300 (Glicko’s Power Disparity) = 1275, which would put SF Smack dab in the middle of T6, exactly as one of more adept WvWvW scholars would put SF.

SF is however stuck in T8 now because Kain received a 1200 point boon in player power within a very short time frame, this shot down FC and ET’s numbers below where they should have and would have been in a more stable environment and thus generated an artificially low number.

Glicko did what it could and responded to the situation within 4 matches, but by that time the damage had been done, because Glicko as a system it is not designed for an environment where players can that drastically and swiftly alter the power of a world. The fault here however was not with Glicko, but Anet giving the players the ability to screw the system and screw with it, they did, in spades.

In short, this meant that thanks to Free Transfers and people band-wagoning to Kain, a 700 point world was artificially boosted to a 1900 world, and then pit against two 900 point worlds under the false pretense that it was a 700 point world. that is what smashed the T8 rating.

Glicko is not the problem, as a system it works, and does it’s job so well that almost every pvp game out there uses it or a variant of it. The problem was Free Transfers allowing players to screw up the system, and screw it up, they did.

But players screwing with the system is why T8 is a sink hole today.

So with the end of Free Transfers Anet should have reset the system, and it would have corrected itself in short order, a floor would not need to be put in.

Why Anet did not do it, I am not sure, their motive was their own, but because they didn’t, the messed up numbers due to Free Transfers remain, but thanks to the ability of a Glicko system being able to correct itself somewhat, only T8 really took the largest burden, but this is because T8 could not move.

On week 1 when SF came down, we see growth in the numbers at T8 and a sign that the system could begin to correct, but then in week 3 SF got an influx of people and began to smash the system again however, they did not receive enough of a boost to pull out, and instead crated a sink hole they are now stuck in.

The only way for this to be fixed is for Anet to rest the numbers, Or at this point, for SF to back off, let ET and FC gain numbers again and build back up to 900 point worlds where we belong, and allow us the players to correct the system that us the players screwed up in the first place. But I doubt that something likely to happen, because like SF asking ET and FC to back off and just let them pull out fell on deaf ears, I know that asking SF to just hold their numbers, and let ET and FC build up their own, would be pointless as well.

Which is why many of us want another server to come down, which hopefully will be more apt to our power level and with Free Transfers ended, that will give us something to fight that we can fight and gain our numbers back up to where they should be.

the low ratings were already there, there have been 2 ~650 servers for months. the most point leeching from the tier occurred when BP and FC (and perhaps prior to this even) were flip flopping between green t8 and red t7, each one was able to stomp dr and kain harder than the week before and leeched more and more rating out of the tier, because the t7 server wasnt being pushed down, rather the t8 server was bumping up. dr and kain leaving the tier hardly took anything with them in comparison, but kains departure made it impossible for a 2nd dr-like server to be able to get enough rating to jump out of the pit.

its a problem much older than just the kain/dr risings, but they were icing on the cake.

Ungood.3054:

Here is the issue. Free Transfers messed up the system, that means that as Anet sees it the problem is not glicko and it’s not the math. So they can’t “fix” those things, because there is nothing actually wrong with them.

The problem is that thanks to Kain and DR pulling out with massive influxes of people, the numbers in T8 got skewed. This was made very clear on week 1, when SF went to T8 and lost to FC which at the the time was rated at a 600 point world and SF was a 980 point world. The following week, SF won, but both fights by a very tight margin. This means that FC was really around a 975 Point world.

To expound on that: Detharos.3157 explained that SF really had the numbers and power to be a T6 world. Glicko makes it clear that SF is 300 points ahead of FC and ET, Week 1 showed that FC could beat a 980 point world and should be around 972 points. To express that with simple math.

975 (Where FC should be) + 300 (Glicko’s Power Disparity) = 1275, which would put SF Smack dab in the middle of T6, exactly as one of more adept WvWvW scholars would put SF.

SF is however stuck in T8 now because Kain received a 1200 point boon in player power within a very short time frame, this shot down FC and ET’s numbers below where they should have and would have been in a more stable environment and thus generated an artificially low number.

Glicko did what it could and responded to the situation within 4 matches, but by that time the damage had been done, because Glicko as a system it is not designed for an environment where players can that drastically and swiftly alter the power of a world. The fault here however was not with Glicko, but Anet giving the players the ability to screw the system and screw with it, they did, in spades.

In short, this meant that thanks to Free Transfers and people band-wagoning to Kain, a 700 point world was artificially boosted to a 1900 world, and then pit against two 900 point worlds under the false pretense that it was a 700 point world. that is what smashed the T8 rating.

Glicko is not the problem, as a system it works, and does it’s job so well that almost every pvp game out there uses it or a variant of it. The problem was Free Transfers allowing players to screw up the system, and screw it up, they did.

But players screwing with the system is why T8 is a sink hole today.

So with the end of Free Transfers Anet should have reset the system, and it would have corrected itself in short order, a floor would not need to be put in.

Why Anet did not do it, I am not sure, their motive was their own, but because they didn’t, the messed up numbers due to Free Transfers remain, but thanks to the ability of a Glicko system being able to correct itself somewhat, only T8 really took the largest burden, but this is because T8 could not move.

On week 1 when SF came down, we see growth in the numbers at T8 and a sign that the system could begin to correct, but then in week 3 SF got an influx of people and began to smash the system again however, they did not receive enough of a boost to pull out, and instead crated a sink hole they are now stuck in.

The only way for this to be fixed is for Anet to rest the numbers, Or at this point, for SF to back off, let ET and FC gain numbers again and build back up to 900 point worlds where we belong, and allow us the players to correct the system that us the players screwed up in the first place. But I doubt that something likely to happen, because like SF asking ET and FC to back off and just let them pull out fell on deaf ears, I know that asking SF to just hold their numbers, and let ET and FC build up their own, would be pointless as well.

Which is why many of us want another server to come down, which hopefully will be more apt to our power level and with Free Transfers ended, that will give us something to fight that we can fight and gain our numbers back up to where they should be.

Good post, you break it down extremely well here.

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

Quoting this made the post too long to submit

The problem with just reseting the scores is that there are balance problems through all tiers. Tier 8 is the only tier that’s really going to benefit from a ratings reset. (Yes, I’m aware many of my arguments are along the lines of “Anet won’t upset the many to fix the problems of the few”, but it’s still valid here).

I spoke out a lot against the ratings reset when they had it planned, because of how they had it planned to execute. If a ratings reset were accompanied by 24-72 hour matches again (To “Gather data”, just like after launch), I would strongly support the move.

The issue being that if they JUST reset the ratings and then leave it to sort itself out with 7 day matches, it’d take many weeks where every tier would be unbalanced. I was honestly surprised they’d chosen to cancel the score reset instead of just shortening matches for a week or two.

Either way,
SF is getting closer and closer to HoD’s rating,
If everyone in tier 8 is correct and HoD would be a more balanced match than SF is, then this will sort itself out in another couple weeks.
If everyone in tier 8 is wrong and HoD stomps them as much as SF has been, then no amount of ratings resets or tampering with Glicko will solve anything either.

Well, I agree with this. The score should have been reset with short matches to re-balance everything after free transfers ended. My only problem with short matches is it is not necessarily a level playing field. Playing times differ for each server, each day so you are not getting the full picture of a servers WvW population trends. Not a big problem but it takes the control factor out of the equation, where with weekly matches you are getting the full picture of that server’s WvW forces.

We are getting closer but unless HoD gets tanked we are still in this “broken Tier” for at least several more weeks. And it has been over 3 months already. With the score differential it is obvious they need to fix SOMETHING. There have been lots of ideas that deserve looking into. No solution is perfect but ignoring the problem (or declaring mass transfer have to be made) is just not practical.

And not everyone in T8 thinks HoD will stomp T8. I think ET and FC can be as good as some other servers but the length of this stale matchup has them burned out. Hell, we on SF are getting (or already are) burned out and we are winning this!

EnRohbi.2187:

Please stop responding to me,
You are not contributing to the thread at all, you are just telling me what you think is wrong with my posts.

LOL, I am sorry if I offended you by pointing out where you are wrong (in MY opinion). I didn’t know contributing was just accepting what others say even when what they are saying either doesn’t belong in the thread or is wrong (again, in MY opinion).

I did ask specific questions to “contribute” but you ignored them all.

I think the least Arenanet could do is lie to these guys. Tell them it’s being fixed so they can have some hope, even if it’s just for a little while.

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

Quoting this made the post too long to submit

The problem with just reseting the scores is that there are balance problems through all tiers. Tier 8 is the only tier that’s really going to benefit from a ratings reset. (Yes, I’m aware many of my arguments are along the lines of “Anet won’t upset the many to fix the problems of the few”, but it’s still valid here).

I spoke out a lot against the ratings reset when they had it planned, because of how they had it planned to execute. If a ratings reset were accompanied by 24-72 hour matches again (To “Gather data”, just like after launch), I would strongly support the move.

The issue being that if they JUST reset the ratings and then leave it to sort itself out with 7 day matches, it’d take many weeks where every tier would be unbalanced. I was honestly surprised they’d chosen to cancel the score reset instead of just shortening matches for a week or two.

Either way,
SF is getting closer and closer to HoD’s rating,
If everyone in tier 8 is correct and HoD would be a more balanced match than SF is, then this will sort itself out in another couple weeks.
If everyone in tier 8 is wrong and HoD stomps them as much as SF has been, then no amount of ratings resets or tampering with Glicko will solve anything either.

Well, I agree with this. The score should have been reset with short matches to re-balance everything after free transfers ended. My only problem with short matches is it is not necessarily a level playing field. Playing times differ for each server, each day so you are not getting the full picture of a servers WvW population trends. Not a big problem but it takes the control factor out of the equation, where with weekly matches you are getting the full picture of that server’s WvW forces.

We are getting closer but unless HoD gets tanked we are still in this “broken Tier” for at least several more weeks. And it has been over 3 months already. With the score differential it is obvious they need to fix SOMETHING. There have been lots of ideas that deserve looking into. No solution is perfect but ignoring the problem (or declaring mass transfer have to be made) is just not practical.

And not everyone in T8 thinks HoD will stomp T8. I think ET and FC can be as good as some other servers but the length of this stale matchup has them burned out. Hell, we on SF are getting (or already are) burned out and we are winning this!

Mass Transfers put WvW into the state its in today. If it was practical enough to cause the problem it is certainly practical enough to alleviate it. Massive WvW Population imbalances are going to be a part of this game for a very, very long time because of how bad everyone made it when free transfers were in effect (And are still continuing to do on a diminished scale since Paid Transfers were implemented).

And getting burned out on stale matches is something that every tier has to get used to at one time or another. Stale matches are the solution to population imbalances, putting everyone in the closest to fair matches as possible. Everyone incorrectly looks at stagnancy as a problem that needs to be fixed, where the only case this may be true is in tier 8.

Furthermore,
SF is projected to gain about 50 points this week, out of the 100~ they need to move up to tier 7. If next week is a repeat of this week in tier 7 and 8, HoD might be switching down sooner than you expect.
But whether it takes two weeks or two more months, it is a problem that IS fixing itself with time, and for Anet to make any sweeping changes that would effect everyone at this point would be jumping the gun a bit.

LOL, what?? Mass transfers made the problem so the same thing will fix it? Only if those mass transfers were reversed. The reason the mass transfers did not work (I believe you said this yourself in another post) was that they did not do the ratings reset with short matches to re-balance everything.

Show me another matchup besides T8 that has stayed in the same place for 3+ months while the winning server has won by as much as SF has. Then I might believe it is more than a broken system.

You keep saying it is fixing itself but you are incorrect. You do not see the current system as broken even though you have stated that. Everything you say is telling us, the players, to do workarounds and ignore that there is an actual problem. When in reality, Anet needs to fix this.

Even Anet stated that the time it should take to balance would be short, which obviously it is not. And nobody is asking for sweeping changes of everything. There are all kinds of ideas worth looking into that are not “Sweeping changes”.

EnRohbi.2187:

Furthermore,
SF is projected to gain about 50 points this week, out of the 100~ they need to move up to tier 7. If next week is a repeat of this week in tier 7 and 8, HoD might be switching down sooner than you expect.
But whether it takes two weeks or two more months, it is a problem that IS fixing itself with time, and for Anet to make any sweeping changes that would effect everyone at this point would be jumping the gun a bit.

This is FALSE. It is not self correcting in T8. Sure this week SF is on trend to make ~50 points in score but if they don’t outscore themselves the following week, they will lose points. that is how the system works. Feel free to go look at the history. SF wins by a large margin often and still loses points. The depressed scores of ET/FC are an anchor that breaks the scoring methodology. Only when the margin is HUMONGOUS, like this week, is there any progress.

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

LOL, what?? Mass transfers made the problem so the same thing will fix it? Only if those mass transfers were reversed. The reason the mass transfers did not work (I believe you said this yourself in another post) was that they did not do the ratings reset with short matches to re-balance everything.

Show me another matchup besides T8 that has stayed in the same place for 3+ months while the winning server has won by as much as SF has. Then I might believe it is more than a broken system.

You keep saying it is fixing itself but you are incorrect. You do not see the current system as broken even though you have stated that. Everything you say is telling us, the players, to do workarounds and ignore that there is an actual problem. When in reality, Anet needs to fix this.

Even Anet stated that the time it should take to balance would be short, which obviously it is not. And nobody is asking for sweeping changes of everything. There are all kinds of ideas worth looking into that are not “Sweeping changes”.

First of all, it’s been about two months and 11 days since SF fell into tier 8. So this whole “3+ months” crap is just plain wrong. And the first three weeks of those matches were not nearly as imbalanced as they are now (In fact, the first week SF was in tier 8 the point difference between first place and third was barely over 30,000 points at the end of the week. Which is a VERY small margin. Oh, and SF came in second place that week. Didn’t even win.)

That means you’ve only been experiencing these imbalanced matches for about a month and a half. Which is about half the amount of time you’re claiming.

Most of the lower tiers have had very little deviation in rank since Kaineng got up to where it is. Which was only a week or two after SF started dominating tier 8. And while there has been SOME movement in tiers since then, you also have to remember that tiers above 8 have room to move both up and down. Tier 8 is not afforded that luxury, so it’s only natural and logical that it’s a less volatile tier than the other ones.

LOL, still focusing on things that do not matter to the point at hand.

Why are you still responding to my posts if you do not want me to respond to yours? Please, answer Ragnarz post or all the other ones directed towards you that you keep ignoring. Just like you keep ignoring my direct questions.

EnRohbi.2187:

Anet doesn’t redesign WvW because tier 8 has their feelings hurt.
No, higher tiers don’t know how it FEELS because we know it sucks so we didn’t put ourselves in that position.

You can complain about people saying that any other server would dominate tier 8 all you want, but it doesn’t make it false. What good is it going to do for Anet to put their time and resources and money into fixing tier 8’s problem, if the very next week the server that replaces SF is going to be just as bad/worse?
You cannot seriously be so self entitled

If ANet wants people to enjoy playing their game, they shouldn’t be punished for establishing a larger guild presence when it was completely unknown how servers were going to fair at launch, especially because free transfers screwed that up horribly until it was way too late.

Your argument of ‘putting yourself in that position’ may apply to individuals, but for guild leaders/officers the current sentiment is “pay us money and go kitten your other guildies over, the progress you’ve made, the rewards you’ve earned and transfer away”, which is a horrible sentiment to push down tier 8’s throats.

The reality it is, it isn’t just Eredon Terrace and Ferguson’s Crossing that gets screwed over, it’s whoever is leading that match as well, in this case it is us this time, Sorrow’s Furnace. Kaineng and Devona’s Rest went through it as well, but at a point when the WvW status of servers was so volatile there were enough fluctuations between tiers that movement could occur.

That isn’t happening anymore. We have been dominating FC/ET since the beginning of the year. That’s almost two and half months now of winning.

Obligatory response from most people, “What’s so bad about that? You’re winning”. The problem is constant winning by a landslide.

- It destroys the quality of our WvW community. Those players/guilds that helped build up, and restrategize our server are now bored, leaving the trolls and mass-horde to introduce a detrimental environment to the game.
- There is no challenge, at all. We don’t have to be strategic, we don’t have to even be smart. The mass horde of SF scares off ET/FC and it PvDoors until it wins. There is no zerg v zerg fights, if it ever comes close to that a lower tier zerg gets broken up and never returns.

The hole that is caused by the Glicko2 system in Tier 8, seriously undermines how those servers would actually compare to other tiers. It is entirely possible, and likely that HoD could dominate as much as we have been in Tier 8; because that’s gone untested since free transfers ended though, we could just as easily find out that the strategies that ET/FC has applied against us, could blindside HoD and put them in a situation where the fights across servers are equal.

Also, arguing a hypothetical negative doesn’t make the hypothetical positive any less true, that’s just obfuscated hypocrisy.

edit: removed unnecessary ad hominem argument for sake of [source]

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

A glass cannon commander who has no idea what the problem actually is, go figure haha.

I put on my rabid gear when I plan to pop my tag, go figure
haha.

I’ll get on a reply to the rest of it in a minute. But you’re replying to my first post of many in this thread and I may only be repeating myself to reply to everything you’ve said.

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

LOL, still focusing on things that do not matter to the point at hand.

Why are you still responding to my posts if you do not want me to respond to yours? Please, answer Ragnarz post or all the other ones directed towards you that you keep ignoring. Just like you keep ignoring my direct questions.

If you want to actually have a conversation, I have no issue with you responding to me.
But posts like these are very indicative of the fact that you have nothing to say. That you realize you are wrong and have no valid defense left. I addressed you directly and explained to you, all directly related to tier 8’s ratings and points (The very topic and title of this thread) that the numbers you are using are incorrect and blatantly only being used to make your point seem more dramatic than it actually is. And you get back to me with nothing but your standard “You aren’t replying to anyone but me” crap.

Hopefully your additional response is not as much of a red herring as the previous responses which negated nothing and detracted from the point on irrelevant specifics.

Again, you are stating things as “facts” that are not. That is one of the reasons it is not worthwhile to respond to you with anything constructive. Since you keep stating opinions as facts there is no point.

And I am getting bored with trying to make you realize that while you may be trying to make points on topic, basing them on false truths mean nothing to anyone. Besides you trying to stir up a hornets nest.

Good day sir, I shall enjoy reading your responses to other folks posts.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Hopefully your additional response is not as much of a red herring as the previous responses which negated nothing and detracted from the point on irrelevant specifics.

Amen! Thanks. I’m out of this one now though. Tired of what you just pointed out.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Hopefully your additional response is not as much of a red herring as the previous responses which negated nothing and detracted from the point on irrelevant specifics.

Actually,
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said except “We’ve been dominating FC/ET since the beginning of the year”, which as I explained in another very recent post, is not quite true. It wasn’t until close to the end of January that the tier 8 matches started becoming any more unbalanced than any other tier in the game.
And in fact, even then, was not as bad as the scores in tiers 5, 4, and 2.

But even with that said,
Your post just reads like you venting frustration about the situation you’re in.
Which is perfectly valid. I would be frustrated were I in tier 8 as well. But that doesn’t make it a reason for Anet to change their system (Which, arguably, even then wouldn’t fix tier 8 ).

But every tier in this game has gone through similar issues at one point or another. They DO balance out eventually.
If I had to guess Anet’s motives right now, I would say they’re holding back on interfering to fix tier 8 until they see what happens when HoD falls down naturally.

I have stated many times previously, as recently as in this thread, that I agree that Glicko is broken. Or at least not a good rating system for the type of competition we have.
But I’ve also said that there’s nothing they can change about Glicko that would actually make it better. The real source of the problem is with the playerbase being as concentrated as it is, and no other scoring system would fix that. Not Glicko, not WULD, not even Anet hand picking servers to go against each other every week.

There are some matchups in this game that just suck. It’s not good, but it is a reality of the situation we’re in. And they don’t all have straightforward solutions.

EnRohbi.2187:

There are some matchups in this game that just suck. It’s not good, but it is a reality of the situation we’re in. And they don’t all have straightforward solutions.

Whoever is arguing for a straightforward-specific solution can do that all they want, it won’t go anywhere, that much has been made clear over time. What arguments should be made (and are being made) is that something needs to change, that should continue until it makes ANet weep of redundancy to the point that they fix it (or even attempt to do so).

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

EnRohbi.2187:

There are some matchups in this game that just suck. It’s not good, but it is a reality of the situation we’re in. And they don’t all have straightforward solutions.

Whoever is arguing for a straightforward-specific solution can do that all they want, it won’t go anywhere, that much has been made clear over time. What arguments should be made (and are being made) is that something needs to change, that should continue until it makes ANet weep of redundancy until they fix it (or even attempt to do so).

The issue I see is that the only real solution to fix WvW in these situations is to start merging servers. Which would create a whole host of other problems as servers with low WvW populations don’t necessarily have low PvE populations.

I’ve seen other people advocate merging EU and NA servers just for WvW. If that turns out to be plausible, it might do some good. But at the moment Anet can’t even seem to figure out how to allow one to Guest from NA->EU or vice versa, so I can’t see this actually happening either.

Between Glicko, free transfers, and the way scores are tallied, Anet laid the foundation themselves for MASSIVE problems with balance in WvW. But unless they completely rebuild WvW from the ground up, they likely don’t really have any solutions they can implement for this that they have anywhere near the resources to do.

So I can’t see anything that COULD change that would help.

Hey guys I’d appreciate if we could stop the personal arguments as the last thing we want is a moderator to close this thread.

Why is there a need for complicated systems for this tiered match up?

Winner goes up. Loser goes down. Team in the middle stays in same tier.

It’s not rocket science.

KensaiZen.3740:

Why is there a need for complicated systems for this tiered match up?

Winner goes up. Loser goes down. Team in the middle stays in same tier.

It’s not rocket science.

Yep, over engineered.
Even if it worked as designed to provide even match-ups more consistently than WU/LD, I’d rather use the WU/LD system because fighting the same fight for months is boring and repetitive.

D W.5179:

Yep, over engineered.
Even if it worked as designed to provide even match-ups more consistently than WU/LD, I’d rather use the WU/LD system because fighting the same fight for months is boring and repetitive.

Agreed. Learning new skills, strategies and styles leads to improvement. It’s hard to do that when matches become so stale because everyone is familiar with each others tactics.

Honestly, I’m sure ET/FC could do much better than they are, they are just bored and demoralized for the most part.

Not to mention that actually cycles colors for the PvE players that want world completion.

KensaiZen.3740:

Why is there a need for complicated systems for this tiered match up?

Winner goes up. Loser goes down. Team in the middle stays in same tier.

It’s not rocket science.

Because that’s logical. But, I’m sure some one can enlighten us with mathematical formulas to show us the error of our ways.

I’m simple, I just need to understand why using analytics to match up servers and then rest wouldn’t work.

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

Quoting this made the post too long to submit

The problem with just reseting the scores is that there are balance problems through all tiers. Tier 8 is the only tier that’s really going to benefit from a ratings reset. (Yes, I’m aware many of my arguments are along the lines of “Anet won’t upset the many to fix the problems of the few”, but it’s still valid here).

Hummm. I don’t fully grasp this view. I mean when I walk out into the WvWvW battle grounds, I am there to fight. Winning or losing, T8 or T2, are not an issue for me, they were not an issue when I started, they have not become one.

The main point of contention is the tedium of stagnant match up, if you gave me the choice of facing SF again or Jade Quarry, I’d take JQ, and I believe anyone else who enjoys gaming for the thrill of battle, would as well. Not because I think I have a chance against JQ, but because it would be something new. In fact, the idea that I may learn something would be enticing, and think anyone that enjoys challenge for the sake of it, would feel the same thrill at the prospect of diverse opponents.

In many ways, I think it would be better for the game over all, we have many new people, and many servers that have become complacent. A reset would set old beliefs away, just like the people that come here and mention that ET and FC don’t have fight, I think it would be highly enlightening for some of them to come on over and see how much fight we have in us. Just like I am sure some servers would like see how well SF really stands up now days.

Much has changed over the months with the transfers ended people have rutted in. The rutting is where the problem lies. Anyone that would not want to see chaos thrown in the system does not truly have a fighting spirit burning in them.

Can you honestly say you never wanted to see how well you matched up against SR, or Blackgate, just to see how well you would do? That maybe, win or lose, they would gain some respect for you, and you for them.

I find it hard to believe anyone would really not want to change things up, that they fear a reset because it would mean they would lose from time to time. Have players become that cowardly in WvWvW? For real?

I spoke out a lot against the ratings reset when they had it planned, because of how they had it planned to execute. If a ratings reset were accompanied by 24-72 hour matches again (To “Gather data”, just like after launch), I would strongly support the move.

When I think about it, if they made 2 – 3 day matches, and kept that way, that would also move the system enough to fix the problem in short order as well, because lets be real here, we can normally tell by the end of the weekend who is going to win the week.

So if they simply made it 48 – 72 hour matches that would also fix the tedium up a bit as well. And no one would be worse off due to this kind of change either.

I could get behind making the match up shorter. if they made it 2 day matches, that would make a current month of matches end in a little over a week. That would work the system out faster.

I could see them doing that now that Free Transfers have ended to “gather data”

Ungood.3054:

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

Quoting this made the post too long to submit

The problem with just reseting the scores is that there are balance problems through all tiers. Tier 8 is the only tier that’s really going to benefit from a ratings reset. (Yes, I’m aware many of my arguments are along the lines of “Anet won’t upset the many to fix the problems of the few”, but it’s still valid here).

Hummm. I don’t fully grasp this view. I mean when I walk out into the WvWvW battle grounds, I am there to fight. Winning or losing, T8 or T2, are not an issue for me, they were not an issue when I started, they have not become one.

The main point of contention is the tedium of stagnant match up, if you gave me the choice of facing SF again or Jade Quarry, I’d take JQ, and I believe anyone else who enjoys gaming for the thrill of battle, would as well. Not because I think I have a chance against JQ, but because it would be something new. In fact, the idea that I may learn something would be enticing, and think anyone that enjoys challenge for the sake of it, would feel the same thrill at the prospect of diverse opponents.

In many ways, I think it would be better for the game over all, we have many new people, and many servers that have become complacent. A reset would set old beliefs away, just like the people that come here and mention that ET and FC don’t have fight, I think it would be highly enlightening for some of them to come on over and see how much fight we have in us. Just like I am sure some servers would like see how well SF really stands up now days.

Much has changed over the months with the transfers ended people have rutted in. The rutting is where the problem lies. Anyone that would not want to see chaos thrown in the system does not truly have a fighting spirit burning in them.

Can you honestly say you never wanted to see how well you matched up against SR, or Blackgate, just to see how well you would do? That maybe, win or lose, they would gain some respect for you, and you for them.

I find it hard to believe anyone would really not want to change things up, that they fear a reset because it would mean they would lose from time to time. Have players become that cowardly in WvWvW? For real?

I spoke out a lot against the ratings reset when they had it planned, because of how they had it planned to execute. If a ratings reset were accompanied by 24-72 hour matches again (To “Gather data”, just like after launch), I would strongly support the move.

When I think about it, if they made 2 – 3 day matches, and kept that way, that would also move the system enough to fix the problem in short order as well, because lets be real here, we can normally tell by the end of the weekend who is going to win the week.

So if they simply made it 48 – 72 hour matches that would also fix the tedium up a bit as well. And no one would be worse off due to this kind of change either.

I could get behind making the match up shorter. if they made it 2 day matches, that would make a current month of matches end in a little over a week. That would work the system out faster.

I could see them doing that now that Free Transfers have ended to “gather data”

I can tell you with some certainty that if Jade Quarry faced any tier 8 server you would literally be spawn camped 24/7 until the next reset.
Learning new things is nice, but you wouldn’t get the chance as you’d never even see a supply camp.

Also, I didn’t mention it in my post because it’s a different subject entirely.
But I have long since had the opinion that reverting back to 48-72 hour matches permanently would be a good decision.
Not to alleviate stagnancy though, but because most matches are decided as soon as you know what server you’re playing against. At least if the matches were shorter it would allow your server to really rally together for a few days and win a match that you would otherwise lose due to attrition.
But again, another topic.

And it’s not that I like stagnancy or facing the same servers every week.
But I like balanced matches.

Balance is more important to me than seeing a different nameplate above my opponent’s head. If I really wanted to learn new strategy I would start sitting down and watching the thousands of hours of WvW videos on youtube that every server makes.

EnRohbi.2187:

I can tell you with some certainty that if Jade Quarry faced any tier 8 server you would literally be spawn camped 24/7 until the next reset.
Learning new things is nice, but you wouldn’t get the chance as you’d never even see a supply camp.

All I will say about this, is you assume much.

Also, I didn’t mention it in my post because it’s a different subject entirely.
But I have long since had the opinion that reverting back to 48-72 hour matches permanently would be a good decision.

Well not really. It address a very large part of the problem.

First being the Tedium issue. Shorter matches don’t let the fight drag on if it is not balanced.

Second being potential stagnation. In a matched structure, people would not move much. But in an unmatched structure, they would move to where they belong quicker.

So this could be a type of a solution to the problem, only by making the mess sort itself out in weeks not months.

Ungood.3054:

EnRohbi.2187:

I can tell you with some certainty that if Jade Quarry faced any tier 8 server you would literally be spawn camped 24/7 until the next reset.
Learning new things is nice, but you wouldn’t get the chance as you’d never even see a supply camp.

All I will say about this, is you assume much.

I know we’ve disagreed about many things in the past.
But you are delusional if you expect to even get an opportunity to use real tactics against Jade Quarry as a tier 8 server.
It’s an assumption, yes, but it is a correct one.

I believe many people are delusional about the competiveness of T8 servers.

That said, I’m sure Jade Quarry would hand us a new one if we faced them.

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

EnRohbi.2187:

I can tell you with some certainty that if Jade Quarry faced any tier 8 server you would literally be spawn camped 24/7 until the next reset.
Learning new things is nice, but you wouldn’t get the chance as you’d never even see a supply camp.

All I will say about this, is you assume much.

I know we’ve disagreed about many things in the past.
But you are delusional if you expect to even get an opportunity to use real tactics against Jade Quarry as a tier 8 server.
It’s an assumption, yes, but it is a correct one.

I’ll say it again. You assume much, most of which I have found lacking any support, like making claims that any T7 server would be the same as SF. When you make outlandish remarks, you can’t expect people to suddenly take you seriously.

*Can you promise that would not learn anything, no you can’t. Thus you assume much.

*Can you promise that we would not get to use tactics or have fun with them, again, you can’t. So you assume much.

The only thing you do know is that we would lose, but so what, since when as ET or FC shied away from a losing battle.

ET and FC fought Kain, a T2 server for 3 weeks straight, we are no strangers to unbalanced matches.

In fact, here is some fun info for you, we fought the server that Stomped yours and we fought them for 3 weeks tooth and nail and did almost as good as you did upon our first battle with their new forces (Which was week 50 in case you are wondering), as they rose up. So spare me any assumptions you have about the fight or ability of T8.

However, I will say that I feel bad that if the prospect of losing is so scary to some people, that they feel obligated to try and maintaining a messed up system out of fear of facing a blowout match from time to time.

@Ungood

Facing JQ would be different but it would not be fun. You would never leave your spawn. How would that be more fun?

In TC when we face a T1.5 server that drops down, we are dominated for a week. I cannot imagine that you guys would even be able to get out of spawn on any map at any time for a week. Facing 30+ JQ outside your spawn on everymap while they tick at 600+ all week would be totally demoralizing.

Edit: after reading the rrest of the posts:

Ungood, you think ppl are assuming too much. Have you ever been in WvW on a T2+ server. We regularly have a zerg of 30+, usually closer to 2 20-40 man zergs on every map all the time. How big are your zergs genarally? This is not a guess it is an eduacated guess based on being on a T6 server for a while before moving to TC 3 months ago because of the low PvE pop on the original server I started on. I rarly if ever saw a zerg bigger than 15 on my former server and lucky to pull that off on 2 maps at a time. I can’t imagine T8 being much different. I am sorry but you are delusional if you think you could do anything but stand at spawn agains JQ. I mean look at weeks 50-52. You guys got wrecked by Kaining and they are not even close to a T1 server, they are a very good T2 server with coverage gaps, JQ has no coverage gaps.

I have no doubt in my mind that you guys have a lot of good players, you just have no where near the numbers necessary.

On a side note I do think you guys could possibly do better against HoD if they were to move down. This was explained to me very clearly in another thread and what the guy said made sense. Unfortunatly unless they chage somethig in the next patch you guys are going to be stuck for a few more weeks.

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

Ungood.3054:

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

EnRohbi.2187:

I can tell you with some certainty that if Jade Quarry faced any tier 8 server you would literally be spawn camped 24/7 until the next reset.
Learning new things is nice, but you wouldn’t get the chance as you’d never even see a supply camp.

All I will say about this, is you assume much.

I know we’ve disagreed about many things in the past.
But you are delusional if you expect to even get an opportunity to use real tactics against Jade Quarry as a tier 8 server.
It’s an assumption, yes, but it is a correct one.

I’ll say it again. You assume much, most of which I have found lacking any support, like making claims that any T7 server would be the same as SF. When you make outlandish remarks, you can’t expect people to suddenly take you seriously.

*Can you promise that would not learn anything, no you can’t. Thus you assume much.

*Can you promise that we would not get to use tactics or have fun with them, again, you can’t. So you assume much.

The only thing you do know is that we would lose, but so what, since when as ET or FC shied away from a losing battle.

I feel bad that if the prospect of losing is so scary to some people, that they feel obligated to try and maintaining a messed up system out of fear of facing a blowout match from time to time.

I agree Ungood. I tried explaining things to this guy but he only wants to troll, he never actually answers direct questions, etc. I just stopped answering because his trollness was obvious and tiresome.

Excuse me, but I believe my conversation with Ungood right now is perfectly civil.

If you have any doubt at all about how much completely dramatically different tiers 1 and 8 are, transfer up for a week or two and see for yourself. I’ve been through every rank between tiers 6 and 2 and I can tell you from personal confirmed experience that the difference is so vast that you wouldn’t have a chance against a tier 1 server.

Go look through score histories,
Look at just Kaineng as an example.
They’re a tier 2 server and they steamrolled everything up to and including tier 3. And tier 1 is a whole other plateau above them.

If you’re pretending to think tier 8 would even be able to hold a single tower against Jade Quarry then you are the one who is trolling.

EDIT: I know a clarification is a little late on this, but none of this is a sleight against tier 8 servers. I see no shame in being in tier 8, just like I had no issues when DB was riding the very bottom of tier 5. It’s just you’ve spent so long facing the same servers that you don’t seem to be aware how different the rest of the tiers are.

Lol…wait people are sick of fighting us and would rather fight JQ. Funniest thing I have heard in a long time. I thought the reason that ET’s score was so low was because the had to fight Kaineng and DR in the first place.

FilthyRat.4652:

Lol…wait people are sick of fighting us and would rather fight JQ. Funniest thing I have heard in a long time.

Says a lot for you guys lol You guys must be really mean.

Some servers are like M&Ms and have a thin candy shell.

Just curious, but why is it, in all of the “woe is t8” threads, it is always stated SF is only in t8 because Kaineng had a big influx?

While it is partially true, it is also ignoring one huge fact. All Kaineng’s moving up did was create a vacant spot in t8. That same week Kaineng moved up the t7 matchup was:

1. GoM 1128.790
2. SF 1034.005
3. HoD 1010.194

So they had about a 24 point cushion on us. But we fought tooth and nail that week precisely to avoid the drop because we saw the blackhole that waited in t8. And what happened? We beat SF, finished second, and managed a 34 point ratings swing, pushing SF down to t8.

Kaineng’s transfers only created the empty space. HoD capitalized on the chance to avoid it, SF didn’t.

So if HoD beat SF and pushed them down, why is it always the claim that SF is so undeserving to be in t8 and it should be HoD stuck in the mire of t8? If SF didn’t want to be there, they should have beaten HoD when they had the chance and a cushion.

Edit: I would like to state, that I don’t agree that they should be permanently in t8, but no one should be imho. I would be really intrigued by the winner moves up, loser moves down methodology. It would at least create more dynamic matchups instead of the same thing every week for months on end.

mginkitten02:

Just curious, but why is it, in all of the “woe is t8” threads, it is always stated SF is only in t8 because Kaineng had a big influx?

While it is partially true, it is also ignoring one huge fact. All Kaineng’s moving up did was create a vacant spot in t8. That same week Kaineng moved up the t7 matchup was:

1. GoM 1128.790
2. SF 1034.005
3. HoD 1010.194

So they had about a 24 point cushion on us. But we fought tooth and nail that week precisely to avoid the drop because we saw the blackhole that waited in t8. And what happened? We beat SF, finished second, and managed a 34 point ratings swing, pushing SF down to t8.

Kaineng’s transfers only created the empty space. HoD capitalized on the chance to avoid it, SF didn’t.

So if HoD beat SF and pushed them down, why is it always the claim that SF is so undeserving to be in t8 and it should be HoD stuck in the mire of t8? If SF didn’t want to be there, they should have beaten HoD when they had the chance and a cushion.

Edit: I would like to state, that I don’t agree that they should be permanently in t8, but no one should be imho. I would be really intrigued by the winner moves up, loser moves down methodology. It would at least create more dynamic matchups instead of the same thing every week for months on end.

you were fighting the beaten and broken sf that was a pretty good match for fc and et

2 weeks later they woke up and started beating the kitten out of us for real, about doubling their wvw population… but too late to escape the rating trap

has your wvw population doubled since january? yes? well kitten. no? then you guys would be a better matchup for us than sf…

Obviously, SF deserved to move down to T8 and fill the void left by a departing Kaineng.

But no server should be stuck in the mire of T8. Every server should have the reasonable opportunity to move up or down. Not be stagnant.

A server who wins for 8-10 weeks straight (especially with dominating wins) should be allowed to move up and test their skill at the next level. Even if Glicko doesn’t agree.

I’d hate it for HoD if they did move down to T8 and faced the same issue SF is now facing. Which would very likely happen to them if they do move down.

mginkitten02:

Just curious, but why is it, in all of the “woe is t8” threads, it is always stated SF is only in t8 because Kaineng had a big influx?

While it is partially true, it is also ignoring one huge fact. All Kaineng’s moving up did was create a vacant spot in t8. That same week Kaineng moved up the t7 matchup was:

1. GoM 1128.790
2. SF 1034.005
3. HoD 1010.194

So they had about a 24 point cushion on us. But we fought tooth and nail that week precisely to avoid the drop because we saw the blackhole that waited in t8. And what happened? We beat SF, finished second, and managed a 34 point ratings swing, pushing SF down to t8.

Kaineng’s transfers only created the empty space. HoD capitalized on the chance to avoid it, SF didn’t.

So if HoD beat SF and pushed them down, why is it always the claim that SF is so undeserving to be in t8 and it should be HoD stuck in the mire of t8? If SF didn’t want to be there, they should have beaten HoD when they had the chance and a cushion.

Edit: I would like to state, that I don’t agree that they should be permanently in t8, but no one should be imho. I would be really intrigued by the winner moves up, loser moves down methodology. It would at least create more dynamic matchups instead of the same thing every week for months on end.

I do not remember anyone stating HoD deserved to be stuck in T8. What I do recall is everyone agrees SF deserves to move up based on the +/- 3 months of domination.

What Kaineg did with the influx was waste ET/FC rating numbers to the point that no matter how much SF beats them by, SF can not get the ratings jump we need to move up, due to the artificially low ratings of ET/FC. At least that is what I get from reading the other posts.

I think winner move up/loser move down can really work with some adjustments. Such as base the moving on disparity of points (meaning the larger the gap in winning/losing the more likely to move that week) and number of consecutive wins/losses.

Side note: why is his username making the system input kitten towards the end of it?

mginkitten02