Guild Wars 2

Could we not find a way for small groups to be equally effective? Do you think people just want bags and wxp?

What if a small group can cause as much damage as a zerg with 400 supply?

a small group should NOT be more effective than a zerg.

downed state, aoe cap

Casuals are the life blood of WvW.
Zerging is for casuals
Arena Net doesn’t want to hurt WvW.
Arena Net will promote zerging.

My 9-year-old brother could figure this stuff out.

More people is always effective. Take WW2 for example. Germans where better trained and equipped then the Russians. Russians won because they kept throwing more people at the problem.(Yes, I know that’s not the only reason they won, but it was a big help.)

Why should your pitiful army of 5 be able to defeat my grand army of 100?

Harbinger.8637:

More people is always effective. Take WW2 for example. Germans where better trained and equipped then the Russians. Russians won because they kept throwing more people at the problem.(Yes, I know that’s not the only reason they won, but it was a big help.)

Adding to this, zerg rushing has always been how armies have defeated each other over the years, when strategy is not available for use.

The main Problem about Zerging isn’t that bigger Groups can defeat smaller Groups(which is pretty obvious).
The Problems are:
1. Skill Lag. A coordinated Group of 40 should be able to defeat a PUG Zerg of 60 Players, but thats not possible, because you need your skills to pull that off. With simple auto attacking the bigger force will win.
2. The Maps are too small. At the Moment it’s not very effective to make multiple small groups, because the big zerg can travel the map fast enough to wipe them both with ease, especially if they have a WP.

Why should less people be equally effective as more people? That doesn’t even make sense.

zerglings gon zerg.

Mass invisibility teleport in to enemy zerg and aoe ftw

Resistance if futile! Do not fight your assimilation into the Zerg!

Pinko.2076:

downed state, aoe cap

definitely this!!!
when the aoe cap will be removed, we will finally see more small scale battles

Small groups can be effective as zergs if they stay spread out and avoid the zerg. If your enemy is in one place and they out number you, be in many and force them to either split or attempt to play catch up. The problem I see is that there is a tendency to try and keep whatever the zerg is after resulting often but not always in failure when that time could have been spent else where.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Why should your pitiful army of 5 be able to defeat my grand army of 100?

the problem is that your 100 men army is brainless.
Zerg are used to rush regardless of aoe… and downed state and aoe cap save them from a poor and deserved Death.
I seriously hope this will get fixed, but I have no faith cos wvw is too much casual in its current state and the 90% of the wvw playerbase cannot afford to play a much more hardcore game.

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Why should your pitiful army of 5 be able to defeat my grand army of 100?

the problem is that your 100 men army is brainless.
Zerg are used to rush regardless of aoe… and downed state and aoe cap save them from a poor and deserved Death.
I seriously hope this will get fixed, but I have no faith cos wvw is too much casual in its current state and the 90% of the wvw playerbase cannot afford to play a much more hardcore game.

Plenty of 5 man teams are brainless.

Here we’ll go this rout, all 5 man team are brainless for not grouping up with enough other players to deal with that large force they so foolishly thought they could handle. There.

Your teams don’t die enough anyway and they deserve to die a even more painful death.

You don’t know how well thought out my army is. There are tactics and coordination involved, just different.

ANet won’t be changing it anyway. They have state that WvW is supposed to be combat involving large numbers of players.

You still haven’t provided any reason that a 5 man team should be able to defeat a 100 man force.

Downed state HP is too high and multiple people rezzing can bring someone up way before a stomp hits.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Why should your pitiful army of 5 be able to defeat my grand army of 100?

the problem is that your 100 men army is brainless.
Zerg are used to rush regardless of aoe… and downed state and aoe cap save them from a poor and deserved Death.
I seriously hope this will get fixed, but I have no faith cos wvw is too much casual in its current state and the 90% of the wvw playerbase cannot afford to play a much more hardcore game.

Plenty of 5 man teams are brainless.

Here we’ll go this rout, all 5 man team are brainless for not grouping up with enough other players to deal with that large force they so foolishly thought they could handle. There.

Your teams don’t die enough anyway and they deserve to die a even more painful death.

You don’t know how well thought out my army is. There are tactics and coordination involved, just different.

ANet won’t be changing it anyway. They have state that WvW is supposed to be combat involving large numbers of players.

You still haven’t provided any reason that a 5 man team should be able to defeat a 100 man force.

if there were realy a tactic involved in a zerg, I would agree with you.
But there is no tactic when 100 ppl rush in a bunch of aoe Attacks and simply do not die cos there is an aoe cap.
If my 5 men team do not use brain and rush in the same way, we are dead before we can even react, that’s the reason why my 5 men team knows how to engage. Use your brain or die.
I’m not stating that 5 men should win against 100 men, just that in the current state WvW is too much Zerg forgiving.
Just remove AoE cap and rework the downed state (I don’t want to see it removed at all) and still you will see 100 men armies in the map but finally they will have to use tactics and not just to do a brainless engage.

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Why should your pitiful army of 5 be able to defeat my grand army of 100?

the problem is that your 100 men army is brainless.
Zerg are used to rush regardless of aoe… and downed state and aoe cap save them from a poor and deserved Death.
I seriously hope this will get fixed, but I have no faith cos wvw is too much casual in its current state and the 90% of the wvw playerbase cannot afford to play a much more hardcore game.

Plenty of 5 man teams are brainless.

Here we’ll go this rout, all 5 man team are brainless for not grouping up with enough other players to deal with that large force they so foolishly thought they could handle. There.

Your teams don’t die enough anyway and they deserve to die a even more painful death.

You don’t know how well thought out my army is. There are tactics and coordination involved, just different.

ANet won’t be changing it anyway. They have state that WvW is supposed to be combat involving large numbers of players.

You still haven’t provided any reason that a 5 man team should be able to defeat a 100 man force.

if there were realy a tactic involved in a zerg, I would agree with you.
But there is no tactic when 100 ppl rush in a bunch of aoe Attacks and simply do not die cos there is an aoe cap.
If my 5 men team do not use brain and rush in the same way, we are dead before we can even react, that’s the reason why my 5 men team knows how to engage. Use your brain or die.
I’m not stating that 5 men should win against 100 men, just that in the current state WvW is too much Zerg forgiving.
Just remove AoE cap and rework the downed state (I don’t want to see it removed at all) and still you will see 100 men armies in the map but finally they will have to use tactics and not just to do a brainless engage.

I don’t believe that the zerg is just rushing in. I would bet they are most likely double dodging the aoe and in the case of my warrior, I can ignore or remove the stuff flung for a short enough time to do my thing.

I cannot support any kind of aoe cap removal unless they nerf aoe damage to the point that the more people it hits, the less it hurts otherwise too much power will be given to too few classes. AoE cap makes as much sense as a GS 100 blade the zerg at the same time because a sword wield would run out of omph before cleaving through the other 90 people stacked. Neither really makes any sense.

There are tactics to zerg and there are tactics individual players use to deal with a zerg. You may not see or recognize them but tactics, timing and skill is being used all the time.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Why should your pitiful army of 5 be able to defeat my grand army of 100?

the problem is that your 100 men army is brainless.
Zerg are used to rush regardless of aoe… and downed state and aoe cap save them from a poor and deserved Death.
I seriously hope this will get fixed, but I have no faith cos wvw is too much casual in its current state and the 90% of the wvw playerbase cannot afford to play a much more hardcore game.

Plenty of 5 man teams are brainless.

Here we’ll go this rout, all 5 man team are brainless for not grouping up with enough other players to deal with that large force they so foolishly thought they could handle. There.

Your teams don’t die enough anyway and they deserve to die a even more painful death.

You don’t know how well thought out my army is. There are tactics and coordination involved, just different.

ANet won’t be changing it anyway. They have state that WvW is supposed to be combat involving large numbers of players.

You still haven’t provided any reason that a 5 man team should be able to defeat a 100 man force.

if there were realy a tactic involved in a zerg, I would agree with you.
But there is no tactic when 100 ppl rush in a bunch of aoe Attacks and simply do not die cos there is an aoe cap.
If my 5 men team do not use brain and rush in the same way, we are dead before we can even react, that’s the reason why my 5 men team knows how to engage. Use your brain or die.
I’m not stating that 5 men should win against 100 men, just that in the current state WvW is too much Zerg forgiving.
Just remove AoE cap and rework the downed state (I don’t want to see it removed at all) and still you will see 100 men armies in the map but finally they will have to use tactics and not just to do a brainless engage.

I don’t believe that the zerg is just rushing in. I would bet they are most likely double dodging the aoe and in the case of my warrior, I can ignore or remove the stuff flung for a short enough time to do my thing.

I cannot support any kind of aoe cap removal unless they nerf aoe damage to the point that the more people it hits, the less it hurts otherwise too much power will be given to too few classes. AoE cap makes as much sense as a GS 100 blade the zerg at the same time because a sword wield would run out of omph before cleaving through the other 90 people stacked. Neither really makes any sense.

There are tactics to zerg and there are tactics individual players use to deal with a zerg. You may not see or recognize them but tactics, timing and skill is being used all the time.

in my opinion removing AoE cap will not turn WvW in just an AoE zerg fest, but simply it will force Zergs to split when engaging a battle and not to act just like 1 big identity.
We have different point of view, I just don’t like when I see 1 mega blob winning by pressing autoattack and standing in a bunch of red circle.
Of course some classes will benefit more than others from the AoE cap removal, but it is like that in every RvR game, where every class should have a role.
If your warrior is an heavy single target dpsser, well don’t stand in the middle of your zerg but just focus on bring down 1 single targets from 1 side.
If your Warrior is an heavy CC hammer user, well your role and your position should be different.
That’s just my 2 cent, I don’t want to see zergs useless, I like massive battles 100 vs 100, I just cannot accept to see 1 mega blob vs 1 mega blob where all people just spam 2 buttons and the only tactic involved is “follow the commander tag”, Aoe field on the commander tag, blast finisher on the commander tag, veil, engage, spam spam spam spam… and so on

downed state is a much larger issue than aoe capping

the nature of the downed state system makes higher numbers exponentially more effective

not that aoe caps isn’t also a reason, but the downed state would be a more effective change

Zergs are not more effective, the game is full of lazy, low skill cap, hand holders that ANET keeps catering to, patch after patch. Coordinated, tightly built squads would be just as competitive if anyone bothered to play that way.

Let’s face it, it is easier and more rewarding in this game to watch TV and just spam tagging skills while running in a ball of 70 other people.

EFWinters.5421:

Casuals are the life blood of WvW.
Zerging is for casuals
Arena Net doesn’t want to hurt WvW.
Arena Net will promote zerging.

My 9-year-old brother could figure this stuff out.

How is zerging for casuals? Most of them would take 15 min just to stack up…

Blix.8021:

Why should less people be equally effective as more people? That doesn’t even make sense.

It does make sense, if the people in the big group are fools (which most zerglings are) and the people in the smaller group are skilled players. So screw you kittening zergers and viva la 5-man team!

Sirendor.1394:

Blix.8021:

Why should less people be equally effective as more people? That doesn’t even make sense.

It does make sense, if the people in the big group are fools (which most zerglings are) and the people in the smaller group are skilled players. So screw you kittening zergers and viva la 5-man team!

Most of the zergs are controled by 5-10 skilled players, well you need someone to die for you. don’t you?

the map is only so big with only that many targets, how many small 5-man teams can u have running around before they all bunch up eventually n then a zerg is born.

think of the zerg like an army regiment or division which u call in for big targets

Niim.9260:

Zergs are not more effective, the game is full of lazy, low skill cap, hand holders that ANET keeps catering to, patch after patch.

So ANET should turn to the zerg of 100 people and say “You can’t play the way you want to play any more because this group of 5 wants people to play their way and only their way.”?

Tyrannus Blade.3408:

Niim.9260:

Zergs are not more effective, the game is full of lazy, low skill cap, hand holders that ANET keeps catering to, patch after patch.

So ANET should turn to the zerg of 100 people and say “You can’t play the way you want to play any more because this group of 5 wants people to play their way and only their way.”?

no one is asking for making zergs useless, but just making them more skilled.
zergers at the moment are composed by mindless spammers. Making WvW a bit more hardcore can only be good.

Nobody is saying that a team of 20 should be able to routinely beat a team of 60 (unless the 60 seriously suck).

However, 3 groups of 20 (60 total) properly co-ordinating with each other should, in theory, be able to run circles around a single group of 60. This is how everyone I’ve ever spoken to would like the game to be. Because the groups of 20 are using better co-ordination, flanking, fake attacks, delays and distractions, etc. they are playing in what most people would consider a more clever, skillfull and interesting way.

The problem is that this isn’t infact the case. The maps are so small that a single group of 60 can defeat one group of 20 at one end of the map, and less than 2 minutes later be at the other end of the map fighting another group. Not only that, a group of 60 can melt through keeps so fast that 3 groups of 20 don’t have any chance of grouping up together to counter the 60-blob, even if the alarm is called as soon as the threat is seen.

This is why people have a problem with zergs, it takes a lot of the interest out of the game by making some of the more refined tactics and gameplay pointless.

Grouping up is human nature though, so I don’t think you can ever really prevent people from doing it. But what could be done is to stop it being quite so effective, by reducing the ability of zergs to move rapidly from one side of the map to the other (waypoints? perma-swiftness?), and reducing their ability to melt through keep defences in under a minute (cap on damage-per-second to gates?).

PS. I don’t think raising or removing AoE cap would do anything to break up zergs. It would just make fights be decided faster. Sure your group of 20 would do more to their 60, but their 60 will also do more damage to you. No gain.

Ragnar, I looked for games with other sorts of open world pvp and there are quite a lot that don’t have anything like zergs in them. The fighting seems to go more 1 vs. 1 and less 5 vs. 30. I wonder how hard it can be to implement that here.

Organized group > any zerg

snowaugar.1823:

Organized group > any zerg

Snow, that’s the theory, but it doesn’t work like that at all.

Sirendor.1394:

snowaugar.1823:

Organized group > any zerg

Snow, that’s the theory, but it doesn’t work like that at all.

L2p I’ve done it plenty with my guild I even wiped 30 with 8 using 2 ward guards 2 staff ele a grenade engi 2 ballista and an ac pre ac buff choke points ftw

snowaugar.1823:

Sirendor.1394:

snowaugar.1823:

Organized group > any zerg

Snow, that’s the theory, but it doesn’t work like that at all.

L2p I’ve done it plenty with my guild I even wiped 30 with 8 using 2 ward guards 2 staff ele a grenade engi 2 ballista and an ac pre ac buff choke points ftw

Well if you use siege. T-T Siege is for cowards as much as zergs.

Sirendor.1394:

snowaugar.1823:

Sirendor.1394:

snowaugar.1823:

Organized group > any zerg

Snow, that’s the theory, but it doesn’t work like that at all.

L2p I’ve done it plenty with my guild I even wiped 30 with 8 using 2 ward guards 2 staff ele a grenade engi 2 ballista and an ac pre ac buff choke points ftw

Well if you use siege. T-T Siege is for cowards as much as zergs.

Umm lol seige is wonderful when your outmanned like I said l2p ^^ I mean the most I can say about helping with the number problems is make outmanned buff better

Down state should be removed from WvW. When you die you die, none of this carebear 2nd chance stuff. Small scale is for players who want to learn their classes and get better. Play smart as a smallscale team, pick off the stragglers of zergs and knw when to attack and when to run. Also most zerglins are dumb. You can easily bait 5-10 from the main zerg and have ur grp waiting for them around the cornor to beat on them. Crying about a small team not beating a zerg makes us havoc squads look bad. We dont QQ like zerglins we get better bro. Step it up.

snowaugar.1823:

Sirendor.1394:

snowaugar.1823:

Organized group > any zerg

Snow, that’s the theory, but it doesn’t work like that at all.

L2p I’ve done it plenty with my guild I even wiped 30 with 8 using 2 ward guards 2 staff ele a grenade engi 2 ballista and an ac pre ac buff choke points ftw

well but you can do it even better if downed state and AoE cap will be removed ( or at least reworked). At the moment both downed state and AoE cap favor the zerg mentality. This is lowering the skill cap in WvW.
I am a leader of a small havoc guild, usually we run not more than 5 men party and we can own groups much bigger than us but there are times that even if we play smarter and better we can do anything against AoE cap and downed state. Let’s see who is realy good and use the best tactic once Downed state and AoE cap will be revisited.

Doubt downed will ever be removed to integrated in cuzo pve and lack of other res forms

if you don’t want zergs then Anet has to first remove the commander tag as it clearly is designed to be a highly visible rallying point for players like moths to a flame.

Zergs r fun to wipe though

snowaugar.1823:

Doubt downed will ever be removed to integrated in cuzo pve and lack of other res forms

I don’t think it’s impossible that a completely separated game mode has different mechanics. Sort of like that Spvp thing!

Downed isn’t the problem anyway, AoE cap is. If there’s nobody to raise downed people because they all got AoE’d, downed isn’t really a problem, is it…

As for zergs being effective, this won’t change. 2>1, 20>10, 200>100…

Truga.5897:

Downed isn’t the problem anyway, AoE cap is. If there’s nobody to raise downed people because they all got AoE’d, downed isn’t really a problem, is it…

As for zergs being effective, this won’t change. 2>1, 20>10, 200>100…

I don’t mind either change, but the downed state removal in WvW is a simpler and more elegant solution. It would remove exponential scaling with numbers which is a larger problem than one side getting more out of the AoE cap.

The primary reason being that if they removed AoE cap, they would need to balance change quite a bit, and the maps themselves don’t support the change. Short of a skill/map overhaul it would lead to more issues down the road when exploiting it became common knowledge.

If I had to choose between 1 mechanic change that solves 70% of a problem or 1 mechanic change that solves 30% of the problem, requires rebalancing, and requires map overhauls, I’ll take the first option.

Also, if you think downed state isn’t a problem on promoting higher numbers, you don’t actually understand how the mechanic scales in terms of finishing/ressing.

I see 3 reasons, working together:

1. zergs can’t be stopped unless by another zerg. Simple truth, but it’s what seperates them from small groups.
By itself not an issue, it becomes one if combined with reason #2.

2. zergs can take everything that needs to be taken fast and move on.
Everything in WvW can be dealt with fast, again unless another zerg counters it.

We all see each day how zergs retreat when the capping goes too slow, when the defense is too strong. Not every time of course, but very often.
The zerg goes on to take something else, hopefully fast.

3. For each individual player a zerg offers more fighting, more kills and loads more rewards than any small time action can provide, ever.
Organised guilds are an exception IF they can supply the numbers needed, else for them too the zerg is the best result for each member.

Combine these 3 and you get an nearly unstoppable wrecking ball that doesn’t have to waste time if it choses not to, can get victories in another spot if it fails somewhere, and that gives the absolute maximum ammount of rewards it can for the players joining it.

suggestions:

1. Scale defending npc’s on the ammount of players attacking, making it a very long effort once over a certain cap that is calculated by the total ammount of players on the map (less for T9 than for T1 obviously).

2. reduce the silly speed at wich a low defended objective is taken, maybe make all caps slower or something.
Camp supervisors should not go from ‘immune buff’ to ‘dead in seconds’. They should gradually lose that buff, opening up opportunities for more small camp action that reacts fast.
And as suggested above: they should scale immensely on the number of players, discouraging zergs to rush them.

3. better rewards for small action such as defending, supplies, scouting, etc…
Changes are coming, but still so little.

You know I give up assuming anyone has skill to counter zerg on forums so logic won’t remove the q.q

snowaugar.1823:

You know I give up assuming anyone has skill to counter zerg on forums so logic won’t remove the q.q

Your logic that there’s no 60 man coordinated zergs isn’t much better. If 20-30 people can be highly coordinated, why can’t 60? This isn’t a skill issue so much as a mechanics issue. It will always, regardless of skill levels in any way, dictate that >x number of Super Godlike Players will beat x number of Super Godlike Players.

Many people have stopped playing this game because these mechanics are a soft cap on potential. It would be in anet’s best interest to lessen or remove soft caps to appeal to what is most likely to be their biggest draw long term.

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Why should your pitiful army of 5 be able to defeat my grand army of 100?

the problem is that your 100 men army is brainless.
Zerg are used to rush regardless of aoe… and downed state and aoe cap save them from a poor and deserved Death.
I seriously hope this will get fixed, but I have no faith cos wvw is too much casual in its current state and the 90% of the wvw playerbase cannot afford to play a much more hardcore game.

Plenty of 5 man teams are brainless.

Here we’ll go this rout, all 5 man team are brainless for not grouping up with enough other players to deal with that large force they so foolishly thought they could handle. There.

Your teams don’t die enough anyway and they deserve to die a even more painful death.

You don’t know how well thought out my army is. There are tactics and coordination involved, just different.

ANet won’t be changing it anyway. They have state that WvW is supposed to be combat involving large numbers of players.

You still haven’t provided any reason that a 5 man team should be able to defeat a 100 man force.

if there were realy a tactic involved in a zerg, I would agree with you.
But there is no tactic when 100 ppl rush in a bunch of aoe Attacks and simply do not die cos there is an aoe cap.
If my 5 men team do not use brain and rush in the same way, we are dead before we can even react, that’s the reason why my 5 men team knows how to engage. Use your brain or die.
I’m not stating that 5 men should win against 100 men, just that in the current state WvW is too much Zerg forgiving.
Just remove AoE cap and rework the downed state (I don’t want to see it removed at all) and still you will see 100 men armies in the map but finally they will have to use tactics and not just to do a brainless engage.

I don’t believe that the zerg is just rushing in. I would bet they are most likely double dodging the aoe and in the case of my warrior, I can ignore or remove the stuff flung for a short enough time to do my thing.

I cannot support any kind of aoe cap removal unless they nerf aoe damage to the point that the more people it hits, the less it hurts otherwise too much power will be given to too few classes. AoE cap makes as much sense as a GS 100 blade the zerg at the same time because a sword wield would run out of omph before cleaving through the other 90 people stacked. Neither really makes any sense.

There are tactics to zerg and there are tactics individual players use to deal with a zerg. You may not see or recognize them but tactics, timing and skill is being used all the time.

in my opinion removing AoE cap will not turn WvW in just an AoE zerg fest, but simply it will force Zergs to split when engaging a battle and not to act just like 1 big identity.
We have different point of view, I just don’t like when I see 1 mega blob winning by pressing autoattack and standing in a bunch of red circle.
Of course some classes will benefit more than others from the AoE cap removal, but it is like that in every RvR game, where every class should have a role.
If your warrior is an heavy single target dpsser, well don’t stand in the middle of your zerg but just focus on bring down 1 single targets from 1 side.
If your Warrior is an heavy CC hammer user, well your role and your position should be different.
That’s just my 2 cent, I don’t want to see zergs useless, I like massive battles 100 vs 100, I just cannot accept to see 1 mega blob vs 1 mega blob where all people just spam 2 buttons and the only tactic involved is “follow the commander tag”, Aoe field on the commander tag, blast finisher on the commander tag, veil, engage, spam spam spam spam… and so on

ok lets remove the aoe cap i dare you
the first thing i would do is garthere a few guardians and eles to stack retaliation and might on each other and without aoe limit that would be very fast to gain 25 stacks of might, after that we will run around without attacking anyone and just let them use there super strong aoe on us and let us get all the loot after they die in seconeds to the retaliation damage and ofc we will use a few 50-60 people that just runs with us also to max the damage but we will still not attack you we will let you kill yourself.
with 371 damage from each player you hit(lets say 55) 20405 damage per aoe damage you give, come agien and say that aoe limit helps zergs more then it counters zergs.

a big zerg is strong because of lag and/or numbers and/or skill/cordination. a smaller groupe but more cordinated will most likely will into a difference between the zergs are to big.

A zerg is more effective simply because there are more people. There are more people because the commanders are easily found.

I created a post on a possible solution to solve this problem.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/How-to-reduce-zergs-in-WvW/first#post2105494

Pinko.2076:

downed state, aoe cap

Absolutely this. Taking away the downed state in WvW would change the game dramatically… for the better IMO.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

Pinko.2076:

downed state, aoe cap

Absolutely this. Taking away the downed state in WvW would change the game dramatically… for the better IMO.

Until you find that you’re getting pwned by a group of less people.