Guild Wars 2

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Something i find very odd:

Some thieves WANT stealth nerfed to need more skill involved, some DON’T want it nerfed…for what reason i wonder…

If you think stealth doesn’t involve skill and there’s no difference between a skilled d/d or d/p player and an unskilled one you’re badly mistaken. It actually has one of the higher skill ceilings in the game. There’s only one thief player I can think of who’d argue stealth needs a nerf because there’s no skill involved, and that would be Sanduskel. And he doesn’t even play a thief.

Yet another stealth needs to be nerfed thread.

Just punish thieves by revealing stealth if they miss a hit (backstab, any skill that deals damage but hits no target). It would really weed out all the bad thieves and make the class more challenging to play. If you’re blinded, it works the same way. Any physical damage moves which you miss a strike should be able to reveal you considering, realistically, they’re swinging pretty hard for that backstab, or whatever they’re doing.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

vincecontix.1264:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The problem is, even though it would take a few simple changes to fix most of the issues, Anet won’t do any of them as that would be admitting they were wrong and they will NEVER admit when they were wrong.

They should:

1) Add a “cripple” effect while people are in stealth
2) Remove the Leap on Heartseeker

In my opinion, make them changes and see what happens, rather than change a lot at the same time, make a few changes each time until its right.

You obviously don’t play a thief because your cripple effect suggestion alone would destroy
almost all viable thief builds on a already sub par class.

A big part of thief survivability and offensivness is mobility. Lack boons and defensive skill means a thief needs stealth and mobility to avoid all the cluster kitten of cc and aoe condi spam if he is even going have a chance at being effective in combat.

Offensively thief need dat mobility to position himself to land a back stab unlike other prof who can spam there skills from any direction. It not easy to land bs on a moving target who actively trying to avoid it.

Also thief is not best in 1v1, small man action, or zerg play. The are great roamering, scouting and bursting down weakened or squishy enimies. Its almost as if there were purposely designed that way, oh wait!

A bad well built war, guard, necro, ele can still be quite effective for his group but a bad thief is just a dead weight rally bot.

The game is not balanced around solo unorganized inexperienced game play. Its balance under the assumption players know what they are doing so get you act together.

Every other MMO with stealth has it doing just fine with such a change…So i dont see it being that much of a problem here, would stop them jumping into stealth every chance they get, would stop them from being easily able to run when they start to lose.

Sure, they would need slight buffs elsewhere to compensate, mostly just Toughness/armor adjustments i think to make it so they can take a little bit more damage but they would still have stealth to fall back on but it would be a HIGH cost situation rather than “lol, easy stealth” and using for the sake of simply being able to use it.

Yeah, shame that mobility helps them to much defensively as well, They can simply use this broken mechanic to burst some one down, force them to use cool downs, jump into stealth reset the fight easily and do it all over again. every other class has to deal with it, why should a class be allowed not to?

Lol, as if it really takes any skill to stealth up to someone who doesnt even know you are there and BS them, then use that same mechanic to run when/if they are at threat of dying. This sort of mechanic is nothing but high reward, with VERY little risk…

“balanced” you think this game is balanced? Hahahaha
This game is many things, balanced is not one of them.

I meant say anet balances, balance be used as a verb not an adjective. So it’s still a work in progress but everything my post stands.

Before we continue any further what in your mind is the strongest 1v1 profession. Do you believe a thief brings more to a small man roaming group than guards, wars, or necros?

vincecontix.1264:

I meant say anet balances, balance be used as a verb not an adjective. So it’s still a work in progress but everything my post stands.

Before we continue any further what in your mind is the strongest 1v1 profession. Do you believe a thief brings more to a small man roaming group than guards, wars, or necros?

1 Vs 1, i would have to say Thief. Simply due to the ability to go into stealth every 4 seconds, the ability to easily escape should the worst comes to the worst. Small group, i would still say Thief is very strong. It is when its BIG groups that they become a little less effective but thats mostly due to to the constant stream of AoE and AoE CC everywhere that it becomes a challenge.

Warrior is a close second for me, mostly due to again the ability to escape easily (with GS).

Necro, just bring plenty of CC an Engi or Warrior if they TIME theirs well can kill Necros, if you just spam it and hope for the best, yeah you will more than likely die but with such a limited access to Stability and the terrible “chase” options they have getting away form them is rather easy and without skills like RtL, Rush and Rocket Boots, they wont be escaping either.

In my opinion (based SOLELY on what the class has access to) 1Vs1

1) Thief (Stealth, mobility, High burst, easy escape)
2) Warrior (Mobility, sustain HS, CC, damage)
3) Mesmer (Stealth, Illusions, High damage)

These would be the Top 3. Engineer i think could be up there as well thanks to high mobility, defense, healing and such as well. Ele Their weakness is just how low health they have, compared to say a Thief they don’t really have that much they can defend themselves with, Solid healing (when built for it) good mobility as well (DD) Guardian are decent but 1 Vs 1 i dont think they offer quite as much as the other classes, they seem more suited for group play rather than solo

Rangers, no comment i havent really played them to really know much about them.

Necromancer While they have high health, DeathShroud is pretty weak (unless specced) and you can EASILY be CC to death thanks to the pathetic access to Stability they have. They cant chase without getting lucky on Spectral Grasp or Dark Path and thats rare. They cant run either. They are pretty much Win or Die sort of class.

While they have strong Condition builds, i personally think other classes are right up there with them as well.

vincecontix.1264:

Before we continue any further what in your mind is the strongest 1v1 profession. Do you believe a thief brings more to a small man roaming group than guards, wars, or necros?

Define small man?

Yesterday I was raiding mostly, but many times we ran past 2 theives that we saw during the evening. They where always running together and they where always “fighting” a single player.

“fighting” being a relative term here, since it was them popping up from nowhere, stun, wham bam thank you mam in less than a second with quadrouple daggers and then they disappear again, followed by a stealth stomp, them appearing for 1 second and then they where gone again only to be seen some 30m away (for about 1 second before they where out of rendering range and/or stealthed again, hard to tell).

They seemed to be doing pretty fine in a small 2 man roaming group. I doubt they even died once. Or got hurt for that matter.

Nuzt.7894:

In before the Thief QQ’s about how they are the weakest class in the game and the rest of the player base just has no idea how hard they have it.

As a thief always carry a supply trap, be sure to cast it first.
Solved my problem.

Dawdler.8521:

vincecontix.1264:

Before we continue any further what in your mind is the strongest 1v1 profession. Do you believe a thief brings more to a small man roaming group than guards, wars, or necros?

Define small man?

Yesterday I was raiding mostly, but many times we ran past 2 theives that we saw during the evening. They where always running together and they where always “fighting” a single player.

“fighting” being a relative term here, since it was them popping up from nowhere, stun, wham bam thank you mam in less than a second with quadrouple daggers and then they disappear again, followed by a stealth stomp, them appearing for 1 second and then they where gone again only to be seen some 30m away (for about 1 second before they where out of rendering range and/or stealthed again, hard to tell).

They seemed to be doing pretty fine in a small 2 man roaming group. I doubt they even died once. Or got hurt for that matter.

I can survive any small man fight I wish and frankly any zerg fight. With on-demand perma stealth, it’s quite easy on my thief. You just need to watch where the enemy aoes.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Every other MMO with stealth has it doing just fine with such a change…

This is not any other MMO. Besides, I am fairly certain that you are wrong about movement speed while in stealth in other MMO’s.

Suggestion for you, just try playing a D/D or D/P thief without any speed boosts and see how that plays. Don’t forget to make a video and share you successes with us, I am looking forward to it.

frans.8092:

This is not any other MMO. Besides, I am fairly certain that you are wrong about movement speed while in stealth in other MMO’s.

Suggestion for you, just try playing a D/D or D/P thief without any speed boosts and see how that plays. Don’t forget to make a video and share you successes with us, I am looking forward to it.

So because this is GW2 it can’t learn anything from other MMO where they have a Rogue/Assassin kind of class?

Who doesnt run with the 25% Movement buff?

Sanduskel.1850:

I can survive any small man fight I wish and frankly any zerg fight. With on-demand perma stealth, it’s quite easy on my thief. You just need to watch where the enemy aoes.

You’re surviving zerg fights, while having contributed absolutely nothing. Congratulations.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

So because this is GW2 it can’t learn anything from other MMO where they have a Rogue/Assassin kind of class?

Different game mechanics and different balance choices; GW rogues don’t have defensive buffs for instance. Beside, you are wrong about the movement penalty in other MMO’s. Which show another problem with the ‘other mmo’ arguments in general, they are invariably false, yet require an excessive amount of time and energy to be shown as such.

Who doesnt run with the 25% Movement buff?

And why would that be? Do you think you could hit anything without it? So, show us, play your thief without movement buffs and video how it works out. I’d love to free up a utility slot.

frans.8092:

Different game mechanics and different balance choices; GW rogues don’t have defensive buffs for instance. Beside, he is wrong about the movement penalty in othe MMO’s. Which show another problem with the ‘other mmo’ arguments, they are invariably false, yet require an excessive amount of time and energy to be shown as such.

Of course, if Thief got some changes and fixes to Stealth they would need some adjustments to defense, Vit and Toughness would need to be adjusted.

I just think that Stealth in combat should be a “right situation” sort of thing and not a spam, spam, spam at every chance.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

frans.8092:

Different game mechanics and different balance choices; GW rogues don’t have defensive buffs for instance. Beside, he is wrong about the movement penalty in othe MMO’s. Which show another problem with the ‘other mmo’ arguments, they are invariably false, yet require an excessive amount of time and energy to be shown as such.

Of course, if Thief got some changes and fixes to Stealth they would need some adjustments to defense, Vit and Toughness would need to be adjusted.

I just think that Stealth in combat should be a “right situation” sort of thing and not a spam, spam, spam at every chance.

Fantastic, start with give thieves the backstab and other from-stealth attacks without stealth. Imagine the cries that would result in.

I am still waiting for your video.

frans.8092:

Fantastic, start with give thieves the backstab and other from-stealth attacks without stealth. Imagine the cries that would result in.

I am still waiting for your video.

What i mean is, I am happy for them to have perma stealth OUTSIDE combat, that is fine, inside combat having stealth for 90% of a fight? Nah thats not okay.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

frans.8092:

Fantastic, start with give thieves the backstab and other from-stealth attacks without stealth. Imagine the cries that would result in.

I am still waiting for your video.

What i mean is, I am happy for them to have perma stealth OUTSIDE combat, that is fine, inside combat having stealth for 90% of a fight? Nah thats not okay.

I would still like to see any video with a thief stealthed 90% of the time in combat able to do diddly…

Aberrant.6749:

I would still like to see any video with a thief stealthed 90% of the time in combat able to do diddly…

doing “diddly”
I would consider regain health, initiative and such would be doing something. Plus does it matter if you aren’t damaging while in stealth when your burst out of stealth makes the lack of damage from stealth meaningless

i hope you realize that thieves don’t have any survivability outside of moblity and stealth…. they don’t have real stability, they don’t have blocks nor invul, their heals are pretty bad too….

if you gonna ask for such changes you might as well ask for thief changes to remove protection and ignore invulnerability on each dagger strike just to make it fair

Cynz.9437:

i hope you realize that thieves don’t have any survivability outside of moblity and stealth…. they don’t have real stability, they don’t have blocks nor invul, their heals are pretty bad too….

if you gonna ask for such changes you might as well ask for thief changes to remove protection and ignore invulnerability on each dagger strike just to make it fair

That is why (as already stated) they would need to be given some more. Not really that hard. Buff the health and toughness a bit and make a few changes elsewhere to counter the more limited use of stealth in combat

“Evasion boon”: 33% to dodge attacks

Eloquence.5207:

“Evasion boon”: 33% to dodge attacks

i was thinking about just things like Increased health, Toughness and a bit of Protection in there somewhere. They would STILL have stealth they wouldn’t be able to spam it over and over.

Cynz.9437:

i hope you realize that thieves don’t have any survivability outside of moblity and stealth…. they don’t have real stability, they don’t have blocks nor invul, their heals are pretty bad too….

if you gonna ask for such changes you might as well ask for thief changes to remove protection and ignore invulnerability on each dagger strike just to make it fair

yes they do. thieves can spec to be as good defensively as most other classes.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aberrant.6749:

I would still like to see any video with a thief stealthed 90% of the time in combat able to do diddly…

doing “diddly”
I would consider regain health, initiative and such would be doing something. Plus does it matter if you aren’t damaging while in stealth when your burst out of stealth makes the lack of damage from stealth meaningless

90% stealth uptime would mean your heal should easily outdo the damage from being attacked only 10% of the time. If you’re taking that much damage in that short amount of time then you’re doing something very wrong. So yes it does matter if you aren’t doing damage 90% of the time.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aberrant.6749:

I would still like to see any video with a thief stealthed 90% of the time in combat able to do diddly…

doing “diddly”
I would consider regain health, initiative and such would be doing something. Plus does it matter if you aren’t damaging while in stealth when your burst out of stealth makes the lack of damage from stealth meaningless

Well, if 3 seconds of reveal is 10% of the time, then 100% is 30 seconds. A backstab would yield a 6-8k, dagger chain and the first HS to enter stealth another 6k, so say, 12k in 30 seconds or about 400 HP/s. Yes, that looks like diddly to me. Not to mention that their opponents would have most skills off cooldown and ready for use after 30 seconds.

frans.8092:

Well, if 3 seconds of reveal is 10% of the time, then 100% is 30 seconds. A backstab would yield a 6-8k, dagger chain and the first HS to enter stealth another 6k, so say, 12k in 30 seconds or about 400 HP/s. Yes, that looks like diddly to me. Not to mention that their opponents would have most skills off cooldown and ready for use after 30 seconds.

6-8k? Must be a lo power build, i have seen it hit for ALOT more than that.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

frans.8092:

Well, if 3 seconds of reveal is 10% of the time, then 100% is 30 seconds. A backstab would yield a 6-8k, dagger chain and the first HS to enter stealth another 6k, so say, 12k in 30 seconds or about 400 HP/s. Yes, that looks like diddly to me. Not to mention that their opponents would have most skills off cooldown and ready for use after 30 seconds.

6-8k? Must be a lo power build, i have seen it hit for ALOT more than that.

You’re not going to stealth for 90% of the time if you’re a glass cannon… It’s not abnormal to see 8k backstabs in a heavy stealth but still high power build like 0/30/30/10 with valk armor and zerk for the rest. You’ll prolly hit for ~10k against full glass in a build like that.

Aberrant.6749:

You’re not going to stealth for 30s if you’re a glass cannon…

You’re assuming the fight lasts a while, if they are in Zerker gear and start in stealth the fight can be VERY short depending on the opponent and the opponent build…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aberrant.6749:

You’re not going to stealth for 30s if you’re a glass cannon…

You’re assuming the fight lasts a while, if they are in Zerker gear and start in stealth the fight can be VERY short depending on the opponent and the opponent build…

We figured a 3s fight for the 90% stealth uptime. That’s pretty kitten short. So a 1s fight? You getting 1 shot or something?

TheGuy.3568:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

frans.8092:

Different game mechanics and different balance choices; GW rogues don’t have defensive buffs for instance. Beside, he is wrong about the movement penalty in othe MMO’s. Which show another problem with the ‘other mmo’ arguments, they are invariably false, yet require an excessive amount of time and energy to be shown as such.

Of course, if Thief got some changes and fixes to Stealth they would need some adjustments to defense, Vit and Toughness would need to be adjusted.

I just think that Stealth in combat should be a “right situation” sort of thing and not a spam, spam, spam at every chance.

Well its is more than that. Condi removal, passive healing, sustained dps, and any trait linked to stealth would have to be reworked. The full implementation would likely make thief like warrior (with tweaks). The main issue would be without reworking the entire thing ides are tossed out without considering the big picture.

too many of you have short memory. When they nerfed stealth to a 4 second revealed they literally rolled it back a month later. Stealth is inherently built into the thief class. While many thieves use no stealth builds they are essentially perma evade builds.

For the lack of AoE range stun stability active combat regen and the low health pol
and poor armor ( the least thing to worry about).

The truth is people do not fear thief in a raid, in any sort of big scale fight, the truth is this comes down to one thing roaming. So I say nerf the thief and buff everything else to the level of every other class. That means AoE, range, sustained dps and healing, CC, condi removal, burst buffs.

Let me break it down to reality for you all. You either have to buff the class into some hybrid warrior/guardian or leave it as is. Not complex. In a game where most of WvW is zerging I find it funny the singular focus on thief. Instead of throwing out some red herring I would suggest you gain some level of scope. Is it really worth reworking an entire class in PvE for the sake of a roaming scout build when wvw meta is zerging which said class does not do well?

In order to nerf stealth the class has to be reworked and everything else has to be buffed simple as that.

Can I give you a hug?

I don’t use stealth as a thief, but the way you “get it” while almost nobody – including other thieves – can get a grasp on the scope of everything is astounding. +1

frans.8092:

Distaste.4801:

I’d love to see the thief get more short range teleports that disorient opponents over stealth.

There once was, but it is no more.

With the way it used to function, I’m not surprised at all. What I’m assuming he’s talking about is the sweet spot between shadow step and infiltrator’s return. Some sort of utility 600 max leash teleport, requiring a target, and being on a really low cool down sounds appropriate. It would have been a fine change to infiltrator’s strike before the nerfs imo (more like whack a mole and less like cat and mouse), but the initiative system would have still made it a spammable long range disengage.

Chuck Zitto.2367:

Would you guys like to see more counter stealth play. I personally liked the idea and think anet should add more options on different classes. Here are a few possible suggestions for classes im familiar with. Mostly changing utilites not used often.

Engi suggestions
1) Thumper or rifle turret replaced with Detector turret. Detector turret- X amount radius around the turret de stealths every x seconds. Overcharge ability- Everybody in the explosion radius is de stealthed and gets revealed condition for x seconds. Toolbelt skill- Single target reveal condition for x seconds just like sic em.
2)Utility goggles reworked- Single target reveal condtion for x seconds. Toolbelt skill fury for x seconds immunity to blindess for x seconds stun breaker.
3)Throw mine changed to throw detector mine- Works exactly like it does now except it adds a reveal condtion for x seconds. Can keep the knockback or lose it. Toolbelt skill stays the same or maybe 1 second reveal condtion per mine.

Ranger Suggestions
1) Vipers nest changed to Detector trap-Works just like vipers nest except each pulse gives reveal condition for x seconds instead of poison.
2)Search and rescue changed to search and reveal. Targeted x radius aoe reveal with or without a reveal condition applied.

Warrior Suggestions
1) On my mark reworked- Single target reveal condtion for x seconds.
2) Replace x banner with detector banner- De stealths anybody in the banner radius every x seconds no stat bonus from banner.

So like my ideas hate em have some of your own or just want to qq if you main a thief feel free to comment.

Ranger already got Anti Stealth, its called “Sic’em”. And for the love of god, Search and Rescue has been ruined more then enough already. Let it be or remove it.

Guardian should reveal thieves with their line of warding/ring of warding. Thief could evade this skill in 3 ways;
Stability
walk around it
Pull guard away from it (scorpion Wire)
skill applies ONLY 4 second reveal (no more, no less)

Warrior, Necro, Ele and Mesmer should never get a reveal. Would make those professions OP against thieves

Engineers are strong as is, whether they need it or not is debatable.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

frans.8092:

Well, if 3 seconds of reveal is 10% of the time, then 100% is 30 seconds. A backstab would yield a 6-8k, dagger chain and the first HS to enter stealth another 6k, so say, 12k in 30 seconds or about 400 HP/s. Yes, that looks like diddly to me. Not to mention that their opponents would have most skills off cooldown and ready for use after 30 seconds.

6-8k? Must be a lo power build, i have seen it hit for ALOT more than that.

Sure you’ll see more. It’s a reference, make a thief, hop into the mists portal, give him zerker ammulet and then run some trials on the golems. You’ll see about 6-8k bakstabs, depending on target armour and rng. You’ll get to add more offense in Wvw, but your foes can have more defense and boons then the golems. 6-8k is reference.

TheGuy.3568:

“Of course, if Thief got some changes and fixes to Stealth they would need some adjustments to defense, Vit and Toughness would need to be adjusted.”

@ArmageddonAsh for someone who has been playing longer than me your scope is very limited. If you touch stealth every trait related to it every attack would have to be adjusted.

Of course this wouldn’t be some sort of instant one patch sort of change, but it CAN be done. It is just if Anet wants to spend time on all the classes.

They could very well do it in a way where they focus on ONE class per an update until all of them are done to adjust everything, fix bugs and everything. Like i said it would not be a sort, few changes boon and its done, it would take time – that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be possible…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Every other MMO with stealth has it doing just fine with such a change…So i dont see it being that much of a problem here, would stop them jumping into stealth every chance they get, would stop them from being easily able to run when they start to lose.

Failed logic because you are only comparing ONE aspect instead of the overall package. For example in WoW (were your suggested changes are in place) thieves have much stronger out of stealth defensive abilities and access to several stun effects. So you can’t just say it works fine and ignore that it works because of other aspects of the class that doesn’t exist here in GW.

bril.5486:

Failed logic because you are only comparing ONE aspect instead of the overall package. For example in WoW (were your suggested changes are in place) thieves have much stronger out of stealth defensive abilities and access to several stun effects. So you can’t just say it works fine and ignore that it works because of other aspects of the class that doesn’t exist here in GW.

Stealth IS the best defense. They can use it to run, they can use it to attack they have WAY to much access to it in combat. A few changes (removing the Leap from HS) for example would go a long way to fixing that.

What i find strange, some thieves WANT these changes saying its to easy with it, Yet others seem to NOT want any sort of change and would rather Stealth stay the way it is…I wonder why, could it be that some players rely on it a bit TOO much?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

What i find strange, some thieves WANT these changes saying its to easy with it, Yet others seem to NOT want any sort of change and would rather Stealth stay the way it is…I wonder why, could it be that some players rely on it a bit TOO much?

There are a couple of classic trolls roaming the forum pretending to play thieves. They don’t.

Stealth is not a good defence, play a thief and you’ll (a) learn soon enough how other players deal with it and (b) how thieves move in stealth, to your advantage.

Prysin.8542:

Chuck Zitto.2367:

Would you guys like to see more counter stealth play. I personally liked the idea and think anet should add more options on different classes. Here are a few possible suggestions for classes im familiar with. Mostly changing utilites not used often.

Engi suggestions
1) Thumper or rifle turret replaced with Detector turret. Detector turret- X amount radius around the turret de stealths every x seconds. Overcharge ability- Everybody in the explosion radius is de stealthed and gets revealed condition for x seconds. Toolbelt skill- Single target reveal condition for x seconds just like sic em.
2)Utility goggles reworked- Single target reveal condtion for x seconds. Toolbelt skill fury for x seconds immunity to blindess for x seconds stun breaker.
3)Throw mine changed to throw detector mine- Works exactly like it does now except it adds a reveal condtion for x seconds. Can keep the knockback or lose it. Toolbelt skill stays the same or maybe 1 second reveal condtion per mine.

Ranger Suggestions
1) Vipers nest changed to Detector trap-Works just like vipers nest except each pulse gives reveal condition for x seconds instead of poison.
2)Search and rescue changed to search and reveal. Targeted x radius aoe reveal with or without a reveal condition applied.

Warrior Suggestions
1) On my mark reworked- Single target reveal condtion for x seconds.
2) Replace x banner with detector banner- De stealths anybody in the banner radius every x seconds no stat bonus from banner.

So like my ideas hate em have some of your own or just want to qq if you main a thief feel free to comment.

Ranger already got Anti Stealth, its called “Sic’em”. And for the love of god, Search and Rescue has been ruined more then enough already. Let it be or remove it.

Guardian should reveal thieves with their line of warding/ring of warding. Thief could evade this skill in 3 ways;
Stability
walk around it
Pull guard away from it (scorpion Wire)
skill applies ONLY 4 second reveal (no more, no less)

Warrior, Necro, Ele and Mesmer should never get a reveal. Would make those professions OP against thieves

Engineers are strong as is, whether they need it or not is debatable.

Please list the Thief only skills that provide stability.

Mesmers could get a Glamorous Glamour that envelops a target in purple butterflies causing them to get Revealed for the duration!

Rangers could see their Signet of the Hunt reworked where the active component would cause any stealthed target within range to become visible to the Ranger and Pet for the duration!

Engineers could see their Utility Goggles reworked so ‘Analyze’ would function as an AoE stealth detector.

Guardians could get a Sense Life Meditation that would envelop any stealthed enemy in blue flames!

Elementalist could get a bag of flour to throw on stealthed enemies! And Warriors can throw flour too! And don’t forget to throw eggs afterwards for extra detection!

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheGuy.3568:

“Of course, if Thief got some changes and fixes to Stealth they would need some adjustments to defense, Vit and Toughness would need to be adjusted.”

@ArmageddonAsh for someone who has been playing longer than me your scope is very limited. If you touch stealth every trait related to it every attack would have to be adjusted.

Of course this wouldn’t be some sort of instant one patch sort of change, but it CAN be done. It is just if Anet wants to spend time on all the classes.

They could very well do it in a way where they focus on ONE class per an update until all of them are done to adjust everything, fix bugs and everything. Like i said it would not be a sort, few changes boon and its done, it would take time – that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be possible…

You seem not to understand what I mean by scope. To change the way initiative regenerated from .75 to 1 per second 5 traits needed to be adjusted and the change affected each and every build. For stealth a total of 14 traits would have to be adjusted (or simply removed and replaced), 10 weapon skills, 3 utility skills, and 2 stolen skills. In these changes they would have to revamp 3 primary form of play (including our main direct damage DPS builds and condi damage build), 1 secondary, and an entire trait line and rework all damage numbers and mobility because thief by design is supposed to be the slipperiest class.

They would have to devote months of work for what? 1 roaming build in a game type where the meta is centered around large group play. By design thief would still be slippery and would still be the hardest class to catch. This was intended. It is literally by design. The devs have repeatedly said that thief should be the fastest class. To date it is not. Even with that the capability to break off a fight while roaming is an option in all roaming builds save necro who are forced into attrition. What you are proposing would most likely lead to the biggest buff to thief and will still have thief as it the most mobile an elusive class.

And what would be the only reason for such major changes? Roaming in WvW. Form a logical stand point and resource management it simply does not make sense.

TheGuy.3568:

-SNIP-

And like i said, would it be hard? Of course, Is it impossible? No. It is like that. Anet COULD spend time tweaking and changing the classes but you don’t have to worry i mean with all the useless content updates and everything for PvE it will take them A LONG time to get around to WvW, Maybe, just maybe after they release the New WvW map they might get around to doing something.

Yeah because as we know WvW is simply not played at all, it would be like making changes with S/TPvP as the core, i mean EVERYONE plays that – Oh wait, they don’t and yet the balancing still comes with that dead end mode that hardly anyone plays in mind.

It could also have a POSITIVE effect on PvE, making it more fun and more of a challenge, rather than just stealthing past everything all the time.

You are acting as if i want the whole class changed, they would STILL have access to stealth, they would STILL be able to use stealth they just wouldn’t be able to jump in it every 4 seconds like they can now.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheGuy.3568:

-SNIP-

And like i said, would it be hard? Of course, Is it impossible? No. It is like that. Anet COULD spend time tweaking and changing the classes but you don’t have to worry i mean with all the useless content updates and everything for PvE it will take them A LONG time to get around to WvW, Maybe, just maybe after they release the New WvW map they might get around to doing something.

Yeah because as we know WvW is simply not played at all, it would be like making changes with S/TPvP as the core, i mean EVERYONE plays that – Oh wait, they don’t and yet the balancing still comes with that dead end mode that hardly anyone plays in mind.

It could also have a POSITIVE effect on PvE, making it more fun and more of a challenge, rather than just stealthing past everything all the time.

You are acting as if i want the whole class changed, they would STILL have access to stealth, they would STILL be able to use stealth they just wouldn’t be able to jump in it every 4 seconds like they can now.

I do not do the sarcasm thing and this discussion has very little is nothing to do with Spvp and everything to do with WvW. Your feelings on content updates and the state of PvE based on content means nothing to me and is irrelevant in this discussion. My objection to your proposals is actually a simple one. It would be a waist of resources to actively change the play of class this much simply for one type of build which has little relevance in the game type. The fact that thief is supposed to be as mobile and as slippery as it is would likely lead to design that would still leave thief as a class easily capable of breaking off combat.

As far as PvE goes what you suggest is that most dungeon content is stealth past. You also suggest that thief’s greatest contribution in PvE (the capability to skip some content) be removed. You suggest this would have positive effect of thief in PvE by making the game more challenging for this class and removing its benefit to a team (especially in fractals). To my knowledge you do not play thief. I would like to know how revamping stealth would make PvE more fun?

So far you have suggested longer reveal times (tried and failed) and increased base vitality and toughness be given for it (no mention of DPS, utility traits, etc). I find it hard to understand your logic because it seems short sighted and unrealistic.

“You are acting as if i want the whole class changed”

I can only read, and respond to what your say. What you have suggested so far would indicate this is what you want.

Many of my fellow thieves simply want easy mode. As a thief I find our access to on-demand perma stealth laughably easy since I can engage multiple enemies at once, pop stealth and watch them flail in the air. There are no counters. Some of us would like a bigger challlenge. My recommendation is to prevent re-entering stealth once you are in combat just as other highly successful MMOs do. It’s pretty simple.

Lol at this childish crusade with posts full of nothing and boring trolls.

TheGuy.3568:

My objection to your proposals is actually a simple one. It would be a waist of resources to actively change the play of class this much simply for one type of build which has little relevance in the game type. The fact that thief is supposed to be as mobile and as slippery as it is would likely lead to design that would still leave thief as a class easily capable of breaking off combat.
.

Your objection to a few changes, such as removing the leap from Heartseeker – would this REALLY change the WHOLE class? If so, what does that say about that skill and how easily it can be combo with other skills to have perma access to stealth outside of combat and easy access every 4 seconds to stealth inside combat.

Sure, they could go through all of the class and change everything, or they could start small. A tweak here, a tweak there.

Would removing ONE leap finisher from a skill be THAT bad that it breaks the whole entire class?

You suggestion to remove stealth from active combat would indeed require a major redesign of the class, it’s not just tweaks like, for example, the changes to heartseeker in the past. You do not play thief, you have no idea how pervasive the use of stealth is to it.

frans.8092:

You suggestion to remove stealth from active combat would indeed require a major redesign of the class, it’s not just tweaks like, for example, the changes to heartseeker in the past. You do not play thief, you have no idea how pervasive the use of stealth is to it.

NOT totally remove it. Remove the Leap from Heartseeker should be enough. They have access to stealth and it should be a “right situation” sort of deal. Not to use it simply because you can every 4 seconds but using it at the right time

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheGuy.3568:

My objection to your proposals is actually a simple one. It would be a waist of resources to actively change the play of class this much simply for one type of build which has little relevance in the game type. The fact that thief is supposed to be as mobile and as slippery as it is would likely lead to design that would still leave thief as a class easily capable of breaking off combat.
.

Your objection to a few changes, such as removing the leap from Heartseeker – would this REALLY change the WHOLE class? If so, what does that say about that skill and how easily it can be combo with other skills to have perma access to stealth outside of combat and easy access every 4 seconds to stealth inside combat.

Sure, they could go through all of the class and change everything, or they could start small. A tweak here, a tweak there.

Would removing ONE leap finisher from a skill be THAT bad that it breaks the whole entire class?

It would break D/P as a weapon set giving not access to stealth within the set with no access to back stab. It would not break the class but would break any power build built around it. As D/P can not be build for condition damage it wouldn’t simply be come an irrelevant weapon set. A dagger main hand set (excluding condi DB) without access to backstab is just a senseless idea.

I think our discussion can stop here. Maybe someone hacked your account, it was sold, or you have decided to simply troll. In any case it is not an accusation I simply do not see the point in discussion like this. Your opinions are your own and whatever they are rooted in they are not rooted in logic. I have made a point to stop this type of back and forth lately if it isn’t producing and sort of meaningful discussion.

An “assasin” type class has the same hate in any MMORPG. The developers must overcome this hate based in tha typical performance of this kind of class:
- strong individual DPS
- low health
- some kind of survival system

In AOC and wow the developers gave stun systems to the players and some evasion systems during combat.
In GW2 this was substituted by stealth. This sistem is obvious was quite defiant to the whole population, mainly because is a very particular and narrow way of combat.
Normally in all the games happen the same referred to this type of class. Being engineered to 1vs1 the rest of the classes cry because they can not compete in indicidual performance (the games are not designed to 1vs1 but mainly to groups vs groups), but people just reflects their fear about 1vs1.
If 1vs1 were the standard aoe should not exist, as group boons and other stuff… Mainly because if you try to balance the combat performance of dps based classes but differnced in aoeVSindividual damage at the end always the individual classes are nerfed, the aoe ones buffed and that last always improve a lot their performance in bigger groups compared to assasin classes. At the end in almost any game the assasin class is crap compared to others and used by very competent players.
A class with low health focused to individual damage is hard to compare to other classes that shine in group, but you always focus in the 1vs1 performance that is not the standard of the game.
An assasin type class should be able to win in equal 1vs1 fights to most of the other classes due to its narrow performance based in high individual dps. This is not happening at the moment, several classes are much better duellers than the thieves at the moment.
Thieves are crap in medium and big group fights and has been nerfed to the floor in duels.
Continue discussing about quitting its survival (stealth in this case) is unfair and plays against the possibilities of the game. Stealth adds interesting systems and actions to Mvm and pvp.
With all the nerfs that have been done talking in this way about an specific mechanic of a class is annoying.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

target management when fighting a stealth based classed is exceptionally annoying and quite frankly bad. They need to allow your target to stay locked on but hide it when they go stealthed.

I wish this game has crosshair aiming instead of tab-targeting.