Guild Wars 2

I am very excited about all of these, especially possible changes to the Blood Magic tree and fast casting.
Will Blood Magic finally be a tree I want to invest points in? No, wait, I already want to, I just can’t because it’s inferior. Will that finally change?

Draehl.2681:

Currently dagger is pretty much break even when going into DS. All this does is encourage sitting on your LF for a rainy day, or just flashing into it for an on-DS effect or a quick Doom. Would it be out of the question to break the damage boost into 3 ranges? <200, <600 <1200 and add another 15% or so to the current <600 damage if within 200 range.

Thoughts?

Death Shroud has different uses depending on your spec. While you might be breaking even in your dagger build, in my Axe build Life Blast does way more damage than my main Weapon and is my main source of burst. In a scepter//staff condition build Life Blast doesn’t do anything, and I only use Death Shroud for the condition skills.
In your case you can save up DS for a rainy day or use it when you need some breathing room by chilling them with DS#2 and then blasting from a distance.

I don’t think splitting LB into 3 different ranges would be that great an idea, honestly. Maybe it would be cool if the functionality of Life Blast changed depending on your current Weapon set, but maybe that’s needlessly complicated.

Bhawb.7408:

(On a side note I don’t think we actually have much of differing opinions, I just wanted to point out that Pets actually differ quite a bit from summons, as it irks me when people call them pets.)

(I noticed)

Bhawb.7408:

In my opinion they are quite different. Minions are definitely a step above all other summons, but still below Pets. What Pets have that minions don’t:

1) They can take actions completely separate from the ranger. This means they can be called back, told to attack something completely separate, etc; but they aren’t tied to the current target like minions are.

2) They actually have abilities and the AI to use them. Minions just AA a target, pets actually have a set of abilities that they use, and generally speaking know how to use.

3) They have an entire stat devoted to them. Minions get a shared tree that is part minions, part defense, part staff, Pets have their very own tree that is nearly full of traits that enhance pets, along with a specific stat boost that does nothing for the ranger, it only boosts their pet’s stats.

[etc. etc.]

I completely spaced on the Beast Mastery, you’re totally right about that. I kind-of mentioned #2, and I was disregarding #1 for argument’s sake.
What I was trying to get across (but failed at miserably) is that if we would get control over our Minions, they would be on par with Pets – or maybe better because of we can create a whole bunch of them – right out of the gate.

And I don’t know if anyone cares for a lore-standpoint, but they are masses of reanimated bone and muscle of fallen friends and foes. Expecting them to do anything other than mindlessly attack whatever is in front of them would be giving bone and muscle way too much credit.

Dredlord.8076:

[…]
Rangers have plenty other things pet wise necros don’t so that argument just doesn’t hold water. Pet controls in no way define a class except in some ridiculous arbitrary fashion that some people around here seem to want to cling to.

Disregarding Pet Control, Ranger Pets aren’t that different from Minions. Pets have a larger variety, various AI-controlled abilities, can be swapped, and you can have only one out at a time. Other than that, they’re more or less the same (please correct me if you can think of anything else).

And what would give Minions elevated status over Turrets, Spirit Weapons, Spirits, Elementals, and Thieves?
You could give everyone Summon Control Panels, but Ranger Pets would need a serious rework in that case, in my opinion.
Honestly, at the end of the day it would probably make Summon skills way to attractive compared to other Utility Skills, and they would have to nerf Minions big time.

Minions have a very strange place in the Necromancer. They are not a profession mechanic (so don’t expect them to be treated as such), but they are the single most traitable utility-skill type in the game.
So while I don’t agree with the OP that we need more control, I do agree that they need a paradigm shift (word of the day, kittens). As I see it, Minions in the future could go one of two ways:

• the number of traits that affect minions dwindles. (Corruptions have only 1 trait, they could use some love.) Minions would gain the same status as Spirit Weapons on Guardians (utility skill), and we won’t really need the UI.
• the number of skills that create and/or affect minions increases, as does the amount of UI dedicated to minions.

There are a lot of pet-type skills in the game; stationary pets (turrets), strong single pets (Ranger pets), cannon fodder (Mesmer clones), High damage pets (Mesmer Phantasms), and Utility pets (Spirit Weapons).
The only thing that is missing is hordes of pets (Mesmers have a maximum of three) and I think that is what the Necromancer’s pets are supposed to be. They never feel like a horde the way they did in GW1 though.

I would like to see more skills that make more than 1 minion.

For me, the PvE Necro is all about control. Every weapon has some way of controlling the enemies around you by either, crippling, chilling, blinding, or weakening them. Any weapon can work, but not all weapon combinations make sense (to me).
Consume Conditions is a very important skill that should be on your bar in almost every situation.
Because Necromancers have no access to vigor, it is important to have a good defensive mechanism to rely on. If you’re not built around using Death Shroud skills offensively, Death Shroud can be your defense. Otherwise, you can use Spectral Armor, or wells.
Using Death Shroud appropriately is incredibly important. Depending on your build, DS #1 can be your most valuable damage skill, or completely useless. The same goes for DS #4.

The most important thing is that apart from a few skills (e.g. Epidemic, Consume Conditions) most skills are not incredibly powerful unless you trait them (watch out for traits like Axe Training, Chilling Darkness, Terror, Master of Terror, Hemophilia, Focused Rituals etc.). The Necromancer has quite a few traits that can drastically change the utility you can get out of certain skills, and those traits are very important.

Cool idea. I stitched the build together in an editor.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBHRdG2IjWoenm1GDfCRqA2A9YXqFQM6RxMMLDA-jgyAYrQj1CEBKQEBQCBc2rIasV1ioxqewUnER1e+ioVLFAErBA-e
I really wanted to use Well of Blood, but I’m afraid Consume Conditions is still a better heal skill (shame, really). Also, while Spectral Grasp gives the 8 second chill, maybe the blast finishers from Bone Minions could do some good on your dark combo fields (blind + chill).
I wonder how well a build like this does. In theory it could shut down players very effectively in a team situation.

Then I guess I don’t understand your criticism.
Why exactly would a defensive ability, like any of the listed, require a ‘severe subtraction’ from our offensive capabilities? All other professions have them, and their DPS potential isn’t necessarily much lower than ours.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Please read this before suggesting defensive skills/traits. So that you can better understand the reason why Necromancers lack defensive capabilities. But don’t think that lacking superior defense makes us underpowered, we are far from it, and any addition to our defense, would have to severely subtract from our offense.

That thread approaches the defensive capabilities of classes from a PvP perspective. In PvE “offensive mitigation”, as you call it, is incredibly ineffective. Damage doesn’t come in through the same channels, and in way larger bursts. Blocking and evading is necessary in some boss fights where blind is only 10% effective, or in the case of environmental threats unusable. Weakness, while it can be incredibly effective, is unreliable in mitigating damage from large single damage bursts.
And it’s not like we would be instantly overpowered in PvP if we got a skill that mitigated all damage from a single or some attacks. Do you realize that we are the only profession that doesn’t have a skill that grants us the ability to negate incoming damage? I’m talking Burning Retreat, Obsidian Flesh, Arcane Shield, Mist Form, Distortion, Illusionary Counter, Illusionary Riposte, Blurred Frenzy, Withdraw, Roll for Initiative, Disabling Shot, Flanking Strike, Pistol Whip, Death Blossom, Static Shield, Gear Shield, Elixir S, Counterblow, Riposte, Shield Stance, Endure Pain, Virtue of Courage, Protector’s Strike, Shield of Wrath, Shelter, ‘Retreat!’, ‘Save Yourselves!’, and Renewed Focus.
That’s right. At least 3 per other profession. I think we can do with just one.

You have some good ideas in your thread, but I’m not going to treat it as canon and I wouldn’t urge anyone else to either. It’s a reasonable explanation of defensive game mechanics, but it’s hardly comprehensive.

A new challenge has arisen: we are no longer able to soak up all the damage from 1 attack with Death Shroud.

Obviously this leaves us a bit crippled, at least in PvE and WvW.
So what would you like to have on your Necromancer to soak up the damage from 1 or more attack? A trait, a utility skill, a weapon skill?
Note: there are plenty of topics voicing their concerns about the DS change itself.
This thread is to come up with suggestions.

Here’s my suggestion:
Consume Blows (Death Shroud #4)
You gain Retaliation and block attacks.
For each attack you block, lose 5% life force and gain Might.

• Duration: 3 seconds
• Retaliation Duration: 3 seconds
• Might Duration: 10 seconds

Life transfer can be merged with Tainted Shackles.

I disagree. The June 25th patch as well as the most recent patch increased the Necromancer’s defense as well as the damage potential. I love the new DS skill, Spectral Wall is amazing now, they are really trying to fix the problems with minions, and I’m happy to see the stunbreaker in Well of Power.
Surviving drops from great distances was great fun, but it was just a gimmick. Do we now have more ‘fear of heights’ than other professions?
The reduction in Terror damage is unfortunate but it’s not like nobody saw it coming. The condition burst necromancer was entirely too bursty.
The change to Staff is incredible. It’s no longer required to put 10 points into Death Magic to work staff, and that – at least for me – opens up build potential for a profession that has limited weapon accessibility.

This patch showed that ArenaNet listens to the community, but isn’t afraid to fix what needs fixing either.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I wouldn’t recommend using a condition necromancer until at least 60. At low levels, conditions tend to scale horribly, and it is much better to just go with power. At 60 is when you get all of the grandmaster traits, and it is also when you get gear that gives enough stats to make conditions truly matter.

Granted, condition damage might not scale as well as direct damage does (“horribly” is a strong word), but is there any content in the game where that truly matters? I wouldn’t wait until level 60 to try out a condition build, by then it’s not as cheap to change gear anymore. You are in no way useless as a condition necromancer at low level.

At level 20, the most notable change in stats comes from the 10 trait points you spend. Armor and weapons do matter, but not as much (I always mix it up. It’s easy to do with crafting.) Most of all I just wouldn’t worry about maxing damage output just yet, you can do that at level 80. Buffing either condition damage or raw damage works fine, and there are nice traits you can pick to compliment whichever path you choose.

Just remember that nothing is permanent, and it’s really cheap to retrain your traits at the people that sell your trait manuals (pick the option “I’d like to retrain my traits”) so you can try a whole bunch of things.

Wow, there are some really great entries already. Some of them are really cool, some of them are somewhat overpowered, and some of them aren’t even pretending to be Adept Major traits.
But who cares, right? They are still great (although they can’t win, rules are rules.)

Here are some of my favorites (disclaimer: I am not a judge.) with credits of course:

ronpierce.2760:

Reanimator (lose the adept minor)

When a minion dies summon a Jagged Horror in it’s place. (Doesn’t effect Jagged Horrors) Decreases the cooldown on minion abilities by 20%.

(Merged New reanimator with Minion Master)

This one is really cool, also clearly the audience favourite: strong, creative, synergetic, clearly an adept trait. Would probably require a slight debuff of Death Nova to not make it overpowered, but that’s Death Nova’s fault.

Sarrs.4831:

Death Magic
Never Waste a Corpse
Whenever one of your minions dies, gain a boon.
Blood Fiend: Regeneration (6s)
Bone Fiend: Retaliation (6s)
Shadow Fiend: Protection (5s)
Bone Minion/Jagged Horror: Might(1/15s)
Flesh Wurm: Swiftness (10s)
Flesh Golem: Stability (5s)

Blood Magic
Toxic Power
Whenever you are poisoned, gain 5 seconds of Regeneration and Vigor. This effect can only occur once every 20 seconds.

A lot of suggestions from Sarrs and all of them fleshed out to the max; cooldown timers, durations, flavour.
These two are my personal favorite. Toxic Power is incredible; no instawin effect, but fits the Necromancer incredibly well as well as having some synergy with Corruption skills. I would like a whole spectrum of these in my skill trees. Never Waste a Corpse is a very cool trait name, and the effect is strong, but not game-breaking, exactly what an Adept trait should do.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Death

Graverobber
Whenever you down a foe, you gain one of the boons they had on them (10 second duration for most boons, 3 seconds for Stability).

Obviously a PvP-only trait (perhaps change to ‘when you hit a foe under 10% health’ for all-round implementation) that fits the necromancer very well. I consider boon stealing a very ‘Mesmer thing to do’ but this trait has a really Necromance-ey vibe.

Everything I read is great!

vicious.5683:

explain this
“- balanced (e.g. will not combine too well with another trait)”
most of our traits lacks synergy and you’re proposing the new ones should be the same?

Just don’t make a killer combo. Don’t make a trait that gives you a second of protection whenever you steal health. On face value, it makes dagger 2 better. With vampiric it turns into permaprotect.
By all means, go for synergy. Make a trait that makes going for Withering Precision supercool. just don’t make it too cool. I emphasized ‘too’ there so it stands out.

It’s hard to gauge how much you are contributing as a necromancer, but as long as you are keeping your enemies loaded with conditions, you should be alright. If you want to do more damage, you could try a hybrid build (there are plenty of good examples of hybrid builds on the forum, the one Nemesis made is supposed to be really good) so you can make use of the raw damage you are dealing as well as condition damage.

Good Luck!

Good news everyone! In the future, Necromancer will get new traits (as will all professions) so let’s make a few, and pick a winner from the fold! I could be the judge, but who am I to judge? Let’s see if we can get an ANet employee to be the judge. Enough posts and they might read this.

Also, rules! (important)
The challenge is to design an Adept Tier Major trait for any Necromancer Trait line. So make sure your trait is:
- not overpowered (It’s not a Grandmaster Trait)
- balanced (e.g. will not combine too well with another trait)
- interesting and creative
- fits in the chosen traitline

EXAMPLE
Soul Barbs ( Spite )
Gain 5% life force whenever you remove a boon. (5 second recharge)

And…. Go!

I would really like to see skills with skill types be integrated more throughout your skillbar. Why don’t thief and ranger weapons have trap skills on the weapon bar? Why not have a stance on Warrior weapons that relates specifically to the weapon you’re holding (for instance, a stance on the burst skill for one of the weapons)? Why can’t there be an Elementalist Utility skill that grants an Aura?
For certain types I certainly understand why they’re not on weapon skills (signets and kits come to mind, and perhaps traps and banners to a degree), but there’s really no reason why there is no spectral skill or a well on a Necromancer weapon.

The obvious exception here is the Mesmer. The mesmer has illusion//clone//phantasm skills on both the weapons and utility skills. I feel like this is one of the things that make Mesmer feel like it’s the most rounded and interesting of all the professions.

adobo.1749:

As a fellow ’i’m too old for this’ gamer, this has worked for me: 30/20/20/0/0
Get necro runes, all staff/marks traits and increased condition damage/time.

Now here’s the best part: i don’t even switch weapons! Arthritis friendly!
3 minions, op fear wall and consume cond heal.

Play style is straightforward: drop marks.

For spvp though, playing smart is greater than teenage reflex. Support your team. objectives>ego and your 1vx kills. Know when to run and know when dying will help your team more than living (for example, kiting 3 people away from objectives, staying up as long as you can and keeping them busy and away for your team to take nodes). Chill enemies trying to get to nodes, fear them away from nodes and stomping. Raise your downed teammate if you cant rally them. Etc etc…

‘teenage reflex’. Love it. Do you not switch weapons at all? Because you could always just use two staves and switch for some extra endurance with sigil of energy.

That’s a really cool video. I’m really interested in the ranger’s build as well, my guild is still looking for some cool ranger builds. The Necromancer build is ace, and your teamplay is impressive.

Alright guys, enough of this. Please take your petty squabble somewhere else. I doubt LaserBolt is interested in your personal feelings toward each other. I know I’m not.

LaserBolt, the vampiric minion master looks to me to be quite good. It could be the perfect fit for your playstyle. I put a little more stock in the suggestion of Anchoku to use scepter/dagger and staff, precisely because of the reasons he states; it’s easier to hit things with a scepter than with an axe or a dagger. I would just try out all suggestions and see which fits best.

Thanks for the info.
This is a Build that I just made. I’ve never played this, and it’s up to you to test it.

I went for a trait setup that capitalizes on a lot of excellent defensive traits the Necromancer has access, without sacrificing too much in the damage department. It’s a condition damage build. Just make sure you open with the staff in hand, because even with the reduced cooldowns you don’t want to be stuck in Staff with your marks and weapon swap on cooldown. That’s instant death. That being said, all your utility skills as well as your elite can help you out of a bind.
Positioning Spectral Wall in the right place can give you a good chance to escape as well as using well of darkness on the right spot.
I think this sort of build is most effective helping out in fights. You won’t survive on your own for very long. Just make sure someone you follow someone or someone is following you.

I’m sure someone else can come up with a better build, I’m no expert, but this build limits you to using your weapon skills 90% of the time. The rest of your skills are big red panic buttons.

The only thing that might require some fingerdance is Death Shroud. Because this is a Terror build, you want to pop into DS, use skill 3, and pop back out for an interupt on a stomp or something. Just force it until it enters muscle memory (Fake it ’til you make it).

Hope it helps!

Laserbolt.6731:

Mighty,

So basically, to be really powerful as a necro, it’s a fairly complex dance?

In a way, yes. Not only for Necromancers though. Guild Wars 2 PvP is high-paced combat and highly skill-based. Personally, I think a scepter/dagger – staff condition build doesn’t have to be a fingerdance to be effective.

But perhaps you can lift the veil a little on where you put your limits. Are you having trouble to stay mobile while also activating skills, or do you just find it difficult to activate utility skills? Would you like to have a build where positioning is not as important or would you like a build that doesn’t require keeping all your utilities on cooldown?

Are you using the default key-binding? Changing this can do wonders for your skill level.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I think that making minions scale off the owner would be a bad idea. One of the perks of running minion master that makes it really shine, imo, is that the master can run whatever stats they want and not have to worry about “will this affect my minions in a negative way”. It gives minion master builds much more flexibility and customization.

Kind of funny that the absence of control over the stats increases the flexibility, isn’t it?
I think the amount of traits we have relating to minions is really big compared to the average Utility skill type, and this variety of traits can make minion skills useful for different situations.
You can make quite tanky, defensive, sustainable minions with Flesh of the Master, Necromatic Corruption and Vampiric Master.
You can make high damage sustainable minions with Training of the Masters and Flesh of the Master.
You can make disposable minions with Minion Master, and you can use Death Nova, Training of the Masters and/or Fetid Consumption to give them additional flexibility.

That is a LOT of possible uses for one skill-type. I feel like we don’t get the same level of customization on Death Shroud.

Poplolita.2638:

He was probably to busy wasting his stunbreaker and dodge whenever he felt like it.

Maybe. No way to tell.
In general I have a hard time feeling sorry for any player running out of endurance when that player has access to vigor.

LoneWolfie.1852:

<<link>>

What more do I need to explain, someone already posted a great video on this BS. 3/4 damage HP done, feared all the way when my stunbreaker is on CD, even dead if there’s a DPS profession backing the necro.

Just because some newbie necromancers don’t know how good their profession is doesn’t excuse the fact the good ones are abusing the crap out of this skill.

Haha, that’s cute, implying I’m a newbie when you’re the one saying the skill is OP. Honestly, I don’t play any PvP right now, and you would probably kick my butt in seconds if I were to log on right now. My personal skills as a player in no way legitimize your claim though.
You know full well that that video proves nothing (NPC, completely controlled environment, the guy took forever to get his wall up, etc.). Yes if you get caught with your pants down, stunbreaker on CD, nobody backing you up, you might very well die from a combination of this skill and some others.
However, if you do have a stunbreaker, some stability and/or one well-timed dodge the wall can’t hurt you. So maybe give it a week or two before you deem the skill overpowered. It’s a bomb-skill and you have to look out for it. Learn to recognize the threat and it’s basically neutralized.

LoneWolfie.1852:

The question is how many dodges do you have? If it’s 1v1 in a PvP, sure everything is fine and all, you can use up your stunbreakers/cond. removal clearance for the necros, but tune it up to 2 kitten necros, and all hell breaks loose. And it’s not like it’s a SINGLE target thing, but AOE with 5 different conditions coming up your way from other skills. Must be fun to know that my PUG allies who aren’t necromancers dropped down like dead flies.

Then when we revive and fight the next time, their kittening CD are done.

Well, it’s still a stationary object with a 5 second duration… So if one gets hit by it, no surprise, but a whole team walking into a wall? You can’t blame that on the skill. That is pure player error.
And yes, if you don’t know the skill you’re going to get caught by surprise and you might die. That can be said about a lot of skills (Feedback, anyone?).

Mammoth.1975:

BadJas.5178:

How is the new spectral wall any different than the Guardian barrier? Just walk around ‘that BS’.

It takes a utility slot instead of being on a weapon, you can dodge through it, putting it under someone doesn’t have any extra effect, it has a longer cooldown, and it attracts much more QQ. That’s how.

I thought we gained an extra fear this patch because of this change, but then I remembered we lost one with the corrupt boon nerf.

Sure, I see those (didn’t know you could dodge through though, that’s interesting). So what exactly is the OP’s complaint? Seems like he just needs to learn how to play around the wall.
I’m not really PvPing right now, but in PvE the wall is definitely our best fear yet. And the loss of fear only applies when reacting to “Save yourselves” right? Most Stabilities can still be countered.

During the last But of Corpse podcast an interesting discussion started on the topic of Minion stat scaling.
Bhawb mentioned that a dev had stated that minion stats don’t scale with player stats because the minions are a utility skill rather than a profession mechanic; Ranger Pets are unique in stat scaling.
Zombify countered by saying Mesmer Illusions also have stat scaling and should be considered utilities, and thus the developers owe us a better explanation than that.
—Correct me if I’m wrong on any of this please, this is how I interpreted the discussion. If any of you meant something different, please tell me so.

Personally I would argue that Mesmer Illusions are both a profession mechanic and not technically Pets, but rather killable DoT skills. Where pets follow around the player and (theoretically) follow instructions the player gives, Illusions follow their target and attack that regardless of the Mesmers actions.
Our minions are almost exclusively Utility skills and are player-based rather than enemy-targeted, so I don’t really see the connection to Mesmer Illusions.

What do you guys think; What is the place of minions for Necromancers? Should they get stat scaling? Do minions need a different type of ‘fix’?
I’ve never really played Minion Master builds, so I’m no expert on the subject. I’m rather fond of Bone Minions in PvE because they can distract mobs and Putrid Explosion can put out a lot of damage. I tend not to use any of the other Minion skills.

How is the new spectral wall any different than the Guardian barrier? Just walk around ‘that BS’.

Nice. Maybe that’s why Terror is a Master Trait now? (Imagine going 30/10/0/0/30 for axe training, close to death, Terror, Master of Terror and Deathly Perception, haha, carnage)

What do you guys think about the new Death Shroud skill being the same underwater as on the ground?
We don’t know for sure if the skills are the same, but I thought I’d voice my opinion regardless (as a true denizen of the internet should.)
I would love a DS 5 skill underwater to work together really well with skill 4. As is, I really think Gathering Plague is rather weak, especially considering how incredibly strong skill 2 and 3 are. I actually think skill 2 is way too strong at a 15 second cooldown.
Anyway, I would love DS#5 underwater to be an AoE explosion that applies an amount of torment on enemies based on the amount of conditions on you.

Most people saying ‘Necromancer Sucks’ on this forum don’t actually think it does. Most of them just want the Necromancer to be a little bit better.
Necromancer is as good a profession as any other, especially in PvE. Tons of inventive build options to play around with, and plenty of challenge. It’s not difficult to level at all, it’s basically the same as any profession. Remember to make use of all the options available for experience; Map completion, Personal Story, and Crafting are the big three. People posting ‘leveling is slow’ are usually forgetting about one of those.
The dungeon groups that kick you for being a Necro are rare and not really fun to play with anyway. I don’t remember ever being kicked or rejected on my Necromancer. Doesn’t matter if you have a fun guild to do dungeons with. There are plenty of guilds on this forum that would gladly accept you into their ranks.

That being said, your description of your favorite profession fits the Mesmer pretty well also. Try both of them, you get 5 character slots!

Support isn’t healing, especially not in this game. Support is applying boons, stacking vulnerability, and healing among others. In dungeons and general PvE you can get by with your own healing skills if you time your dodges and get your positioning right to avoid the big bursts of damage NPC put out.

I like the idea of healing being affected by more than Healing Power, but having precision affect it would be incredibly powerful, and leave room for incredible powerful jack-of-all-trades characters that have both burst damage and burst healing. I truly believe for balance purposes no stat should be able to push both damage and healing//defense.
I don’t know about double condition duration, i don’t feel like it’s necessary, but I do like the idea of removing/increasing some of the caps. Alternatively, hitting a duration/stack cap should have some additional powerful effect.

I’m going to ignore that statement about playerbase, as that is pure speculation and completely off-topic.

Can we keep it constructive? By which I mean, if you feel like giving a statement followed by three exclamation marks, could you also add some explanation?

What would removing defiant do in PvE to the balance? Would bosses be permastunned even without control characters around? (yes, they would) And if so, how can that be fixed? What would be a good alternative to defiant?

I think the main problem with the control component is stat distribution (in PvP and PvE). While specific traits do encourage control play, attributes don’t, with the exception condition duration.
Because I don’t like critical damage in the traitline attributes (it’s statistically dependent on precision, I ranted about this once but nobody cared) I propose to replace critical damage with a stat that increases control effectiveness: Stun/Daze duration, launch distance, movement reduction on cripple, etc. Not 1% per trait point, that would be insane, but like .33% or something. At 30 points that would make your control effects 10% more effective.

ArenaNet introduced the damage/control/support spectrum as a replacement system for the holy trinity. Every character is able to spec towards one of these three or a hybrid between two or all components.
In practice I feel like it’s not possible to make a full control character. It’s just not useful. If you’re full damage or full support you can be incredibly helpful in a team situation. But we don’t really see control characters, and support characters aren’t that abundant either. Why?
What is a control character?
A control character would focus on control effects and conditions that hamper opponents: Stun, Daze, Launch, Cripple, Chill, Poison, Weakness, Blind, Fear, Immobilize and Retribution.
So what stats would a Support Character need to invest trait points in? Condition Duration. Power helps with Retribution damage, but that’s it. That’s all we can do. Damage characters can invest in power, precision, critical damage, condition damage, and to a lesser degree boon and condition duration. Support Characters can invest in boon duration and healing power, and to a lesser degree condition duration (vulnerability is support).

So it’s not really a Damage//Control//Support spectrum. It’s a Control << Damage >> Support pyramid. And even then, support is easier to build than control.
What do you guys think? Suggestions on possible changes to remedy this?

Our guild is pretty sure Trahearne is a robot. It holds up pretty well, especially when you hear the voice acting (just add some beeps and “WhAt ARe fEelinGs?”s to it).
We don’t know where he’s from, but my theory is that some Asura found the tree and saw the sleeping Sylvari. Added one to be born first, going all: “what is happening?” and “What is this world?”. The Asura did a pretty good job, but somehow Trahearne developed borderline compulsive disorder, having the uncontrolable urge to “Clean the World”. He reprogrammed the obsession to focus on Orr and called it his Wild Hunt.

Back on topic:
That is a really cool ability the Risen Necromancers have. Maybe it could be a leap finisher, with a combined Death Shroud/Savage Leap/Deathly Swarm effect.

DS flicker build

This is the build I use around 50% of the time in PvE. The only thing I use Death Shroud for is a quick in-and-out for a condition removal, fury, retaliation, and AoE weakness. You get a lot of DS regen from daggers, but it’s not incredibly necessary.
Warhorn is really strong when you take the Banshee’s Wail Trait. I switch around utilities all the time, this is just a suggestion for general PvE. The well does a lot of damage in PvE, and I like blowing up minions.

I use this build not because it is particularly powerful, but mostly for fun. It’s not a weak build, mind you, but as far as PvE builds go I wouldn’t put it in the top tier. Going in and out of DS for all those tiny effects makes it greater than the sum of its parts, and feels really powerful.

Have Fun!

From what I gather from community response, ArenaNet is very aware of the specific problems Necromancers face in all game types. However they are careful when balancing the game, preferring to go slow and steady until a profession is no longer underpowered over a yo-yo policy where one class is underpowered one month, and overpowered the next.
I like to think of it like this: if one profession is lacking, that makes 1/8 of the game population angry. If you then make that class too powerful, 7/8 of the game population starts complaining. It sucks for us right now, but from their point of view it’s better than that alternative.
So I don’t expect our class to be overpowered at the end of this month. I don’t expect us to get a ground-targeted teleport, extra stun breakers, stability on Spectral Armor, and a trait that applies burning when you cripple someone.
I expect some little changes, and I’m excited about it because I love to make builds that abuse little things in the game. And most of all I’m excited that the developers want to add changes to the class that add to our profession identity rather than subtract from it. A large amount of suggestions I see on this forum would make our profession act more like a Guardian or an Elementalist, and that’s not what any of us want (or we would be playing Guardians and Elementalists).

Battletorn.4102:

I tested it thoroughly and I cannot get it blocked by aegis anymore. However, guardians do have block spells which will definitely block corrupt boon which is probably working as intended.

I doubt it’s intended when an ‘unblockable’ skill is being ‘blocked’. I’m sure it’s a bug.

Nice. I agree IceFlame.

The interaction between Stability and Fear should be exactly the same as between Defiant (PvE boss mob boon-like effect thing) and Fear.

Stability right now works as intended, though. Check the stability wording:
Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, or feared.

whereas defiant reads:
Immune to crowd control. Crowd control skills remove stacks of Defiant.

I encourage you to put this on the sPvP forum (perhaps broaden the topic a bit to ‘Stability interactions’, there is more there) and co-sign this completely.

flow.6043:

And yes

BadJas.5178:

Did you make sure Fear was the first and only (ticking) condition you applied?

that’s what I said:

flow.6043:

I tested on a training golem, no extra conditions, just the DS fear.

Oh, haha! I was asking about Andele’s testing procedure, I knew you had done this. Sorry for the mix-up!

The 20% chance is also called a ‘small projectile finisher’. Right now, skills with projectile finisher either have 20% chance or 100% chance to finish. Skills with ‘small projectile finisher’ tend to either be auto-attack skills or skills that fire a lot of projectiles at ones (e.g. the Rangers Longbow 2, “Rapid Fire”).
Increasing the chance to 40-50% would introduce a new category into the game, making the game mechanics (a little bit) more complicated. Increasing the game complexity is not really something the developers at ArenaNet tend to take lightly.
I think the problem with the Necrotic Grasp isn’t that it has only a 20% chance to combo finish. Rather, it’s the other stuff you mentioned. If the projectiles were slightly faster, they would hit more often. I think damage-wise the projectiles are in a good spot though, I personally don’t need to see a change in that.

I don’t know if ArenaNet has specifically commented on Necrotic Grasp, but perhaps someone else does. (hint, hint, readers…)

I think it looks like someone used Elementalist Staff skill 3 on you.
I used it for a while because it came with the armor I bought. At the time I wasn’t impressed, mainly because at the time I was killing it in WvW with a staff build.
I guess it could be useful, but you’re giving up quite a lot of potential. You have to get the full 6 runes, and 2 of the 6 effects do very little for you. In a condition damage build I think you would get more out of runes of the Nightmare. It gives you another Fear and 10% condition duration as well as a bunch of extra condition damage.

Andele.1306:

flow.6043:

I wasn’t talking about “a few times” in combat with pre-existing conditions on my target to promote the chance of getting a second tick with less than 100%.

I tested on a training golem, no extra conditions, just the DS fear. And I repeated the test several times. The sigil always gave a second tick, the other set never did.

Always one tick out of 16, with 2 lyssa runes, 2 ticks 3/9 times.
So no you had extra condi duration runes and/or spite , also note the initial 75 and 190 damage from doom and reapers are the actual skill damage procs not terror (its 390 and 580 hits depending on condis on target).

Did you make sure Fear was the first and only (ticking) condition you applied? To make sure you should use a fresh golem every time. And if he counted the initial damage he would never have seen just one tick, because terror ticks at least once.

Let’s try to keep it civil and on-topic people. Spectral Wall and personal skill has very little to do with Stability on Necromancers.

If you think Necromancers need Stability, how much do they need? Would Spectral Armor with Stability be enough?

@sternenstaub: What does that have to do with us getting more access to stability or not?

@Zenith:
Yes. I agree with you. Our stunbreakers are lacking. I like Spectral Walk, but I never use any of the other ones. Due to my “always have a stunbreaker in every build” rule that means my Necro always runs with Spectral Walk. Sometimes I switch to signet because I want to use a different tactic for a little while.

I also agree with Jonathan Sharp that putting stability on Spectral Armor would probably make it mandatory for every Necromancer build. Right now it’s not enough, putting Stability on it would make it too much. Maybe there’s a middle ground there somewhere.

Lalangamena.3694:

Stability is a core boon for WWW and PVP.
it is not needed in PVE as much (though also needed, but in pve you can rely on your friendly war or guard to give you stability via shout)

what we have is a three second stability when we enter deathShroud if we spent 30 points in reaping as a grandmaster trait.

this is really not enough…

Is Stability really that “core”? Outside of Elite Skills, Rangers and Thieves have no access to it, Mesmers have it on a skill that doesn’t see that much use, Engineers only have a 50% chance on a toolbelt skill. Only Guardians, Warriors, and Elementalists (barely) have more access to it than we do.

Of course Rangers, Thieves, Engineers, Mesmers and Elementalists have access to other skills that get them out of trouble. But do Necromancers really fit in with Guardians and Warriors in the Stability group? I think we should get a place in the “have other ways to get out of trouble” group. Leave Stability to the Soldiers.

So perhaps there should be a trait that grants life force when you are disabled? Or would you rather have something akin to Reaper’s Protection (i.e. a skill or trait that negatively affects people who stun the Necromancer)?
I have never tried Reaper’s Protection, so I don’t know if it’s any good.