Showing Posts For Bratec.7136:
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Why there is no damage reduction for thief 1500 range weapon, but there is for ranger 1500 weapon?
There is no trade-off between damage and survavility. That’s why total majority of groups are melee-stacked. Because choice is obvious.
Most melee AOE’s are eaten by players and healed/blocked thru.
You cant allow to eat AoE’s on ranged with 40-50% heal on long cd.
This post is after Vale guardian fight in raid, where _i_didnt_heal_once. Because i didnt needed to. While always staying in melee range.
Going ranged you lose perma-alacrity, perma-quickness, 25 stacks of mights, all protections. And fight goes much longer. And the longer fight drag, the more chances for group to wipe. So this means, its not “safer” not because you are on your own without heals and buffs, but also because more chances of wipe.
I am talking about full fight spending ranged, outside safety of melee-stack. I.e. you are not melee-stack all fight, not like just took ranged weapon staying in stack Or took weapon for some gimmick and continue melee after that.
What “major mechanics” you are talking about, your party wont have to melee-stack? Because main mechanic on almost all bosses is to melee stack. That is so main mechanic that you would be probably kicked if you stay out of melee blob in fight.
About removing strategy by getting area of buffs, you will get same buffs and heals as melee and ranged.
Only difference is that you melee will have to avoid melee AOE and ranged will have to avoid Ranged AoE. All bosses have some melee and some ranged attack, all players get damage, you are actually not safer currently at range since you dont get party heals.
(edited by Bratec.7136)
Thief ranged (!) 1 button spam outdps all tests and builds in this topic.
21.813 dps
Even your sources show that elementalist outdps ranger by large margin. Lets be honest.
Just read first post in this thread, all those numbers from testing.
(edited by Bratec.7136)
You can play ranger perfectly fine, the dps people keep talking about, and it being 2×3 times lower than other is just a load of b/s. rangers are within the 29-33k range on benchmarks, which cover 90% of specs.
This is a dps testing for Petless Ranger in preparation for Soulbeast
Marksmanship: Steady Aim, Predator
Skirmishing: Sharpened Edge, Spotter, Vicious
Beastmaster: Two Hand Training, Honed Axe
Gears: Full Berzerker
Ascended Weapon with Sigil of Fire and Sigil of Force
Ascended Trinkets
Exotic Armors with Rune of Scholar
Utility: Signet of Wild (Not bringing Sharpened Edge because rangers will most likely bring spirits)
This test is assumed I have all boons and all class exclusive buffs/ banners/ spirits/ glyph/ alacrity
This test uses 6% + 3% power utility and 100 power 70 precision food. (No ferocity)
All Golems have 25 stacks of Vulnerability and Cripple
The test is taking 5 dps numbers from Raid Golem and take the average of that number
GS: 14864
Sword Axe + GS: 17612
Sword Axe: 20254
Sword Axe + Axe Warhorn: 20298
Axe Warhorn: 15217
Axe Axe: 18355
Longbow (1000+ range + Predator): 16779
Longbow (1000+ range + LtW): 14911
Longbow (melee range + Predator): 14797
Sword Axe + LB (Quick Draw): 17206
Sword Axe + LB (Vicious Quarry): 19379
p.s. To get Soulbeast, you are losing pet dps and one of 3 trees, all of them contribute to shown dps.
I understand that most people are melee-stacking (since its meta and “right” way to do it), but if you have no experience at how much damage comes at ranged distance – you can ask, no need to make assumptions without experience.
What “coordination” in melee stack? Just get to boss and spam attacks, since your heals/buffs are being taken care of.
You know those who are healing and buffing need to perform some rotations that range from easy to really complex. And if you “spam” attacks you are doing it wrong.
All you want is a way to do content while you are spamming your attacks from a distant corner, far away of any mechanics of the boss, while your teammates buffs and heals reach you and keep you alive. That’s never going to happen
Did you try staying at range for most bosses in raids and fractal fights?
Yes/no. And which fights you went ranged.
So i can understand do you know amount of damage that goes your way at ranged (900) distance.
In my experience, this happens a lot less frequently than people think. Just because a build can possibly do 2-3x more damage on a large hitbox golem that is standing still while you have every raid buff possible, doesn’t mean it’s like that all the time.
Unless people are getting those rotations perfect, then the DPS is significantly lower, whereas with a Ranger S/A there is no rotation, you just AA and use your buffs off CD. I’ve out damaged power staff eles so many times it’s not even funny, because they can’t play it as well as those that post the benchmarks do in that particular video they practised for 5 hours to make perfectly.
Why would your rotation not be perfect if you take part in end-game and know all mechanics and rotations?
Also you need not only do rotations good as them, you also need to keep flanking (they dont need flanking at all).
What damage would you get with AA and buffs?
Ranger "downed’ skill cant be used immediatly, you need to wait timer (giving plenty time to finish you off).
What dangerous “melee” people are talking about in fractals/raids?
Currently, you are almost immortal in decent group when stacking in melee. Even if you go down (unlikely, but may happen), you are immediatly brought up since you are all near.
What “coordination” in melee stack? Just get to boss and spam attacks, since your heals/buffs are being taken care of.
More of a reason to nerf Staff ele than to buff Ranger.
You can have reasons, i can have reasons, but with balance patches rolling (last one in August, recently), elementalist does 60k dps, while ranger struggles at 20k, as per tests in this topic.
You got a link to that mate? Because I’m more willing to believe qT’s “perfect scenario” for maximum DPS which was like 37k or something close to that. Unless you are referring to some specific niche where an ele nukes 30 mobs at once so the damage calculates out at 60k DPS for 2s or some similarly absurd set of circumstances.
Fractal 40s farm, dps meter, yesterday.
Thats actually to your benefit. You have weapons that are good in both melee and mid range. Be happy. About staying at range, as I said its absolutely possible in most situations. Its up to you and your team to discuss if you want to use this strategy.
Also, not only mesmer and druid can tank and heal…
Didnt you read me? Ranger dont have good melee weapons.
IF we had, than stacking in melee would made some sence, at least, now there is none.
Condition damage is overpowered. 90% of professions playing PvP are condition damage based. Raiding is all about condition damage, high level fractals want condition damage. Everything is about conditions.
Welcome to Condi Wars 2, where you can buy the expansion Path of Burning.
Why power builds are at top dps atm then?
(edited by Bratec.7136)
This is because the game lack trinity mechanic. Its one of the downsides of tank absence and I feel you. You actually can play as regular trinity game, most of the time. You need tanky player and healer to aggro mobs and after several secs. dps can start deal damage from distance. unless mobs AI is targeting the person who is furthest away it will work.
However, the stacking game play is the most efficient.
We have tanks (chrono), healers (druids) and other classes (dps). Its that they all stack in melee range.
p.s. As ranger we dont get good melee weapons. Weapons like greatsword, for example, are terrible for PvE. So we “melee” with bows/throwing axes <- i dont think this is right.
I played many MMOs with teamwork groups. Never i heard that “melee stacking” equals teamwork.
When you stack you get buffs, you get buffs from your team mates -> teamwork.
When you don’t stack and run around like a headless chicken you do not cooperate with your team mates, you do not buff, nor receive buffs -> no teamwork.As for your other MMOs in a lot of MMOs I’ve played, like most of them, they did not place such importance in buffs. Even the giant of MMORPGs has only a handful of buffs and most abilities buff yourself, instead of buffing others. Therefore, there is no need for players to stay at such a close range because buffs play a much less important role, it’s all about doing dps, healing and holding aggro.
In GW2 the big three, PS, Chrono and Druid can triple the damage output of the team (group of 5). Therefore, buffs in this game are the absolute king and maximizing those buffs (by being close together) is how you can finish content in the fastest and most efficient way.
This is a game of buffs, while in most other MMORPGs party wide buffs (with limited duration) are rare
You realise that by giving buffs wider range – nothing would change except that classes (players) who prefer ranged playstyle will also get them?
I.e. now they are forced in melee, want they or not, but with this change they can stay in melee (if they like melee) or can stay range (if they like range).
You prefer to play in melee, its ok. But all routes should be viable.
Why people ignore that you HAVE to stack, you are asked by group leaders and game asks (via mechanics) for this.
It’s called teamwork.
I played many MMOs with teamwork groups. Never i heard that “melee stacking” equals teamwork.
Why people ignore that you HAVE to stack, you are asked by group leaders and game asks (via mechanics) for this.
No matter, you prefer ranged or melee, you will stack in melee. No choice here. Unless you want to do less damage (= i.e. fight takes longer which leads to higher group wipe chance) and have less survival since you wont have immortality of 2 druid spam-healing your group and all defence/evade buffs you get.
More of a reason to nerf Staff ele than to buff Ranger.
You can have reasons, i can have reasons, but with balance patches rolling (last one in August, recently), elementalist does 60k dps, while ranger struggles at 20k, as per tests in this topic.
Ranger is OK if you want to play healer for others in group content.
For dps route other classes can and will do 2-3 times more damage than you.
You will be able to do fine in solo’ing champions and even legends though, but with other classes you can do as well, but harder since no pet to tank for you.
In short, if you want to play in groups, you will want Druid and healing items set. Talking about end-game.
If you want solo and casual player – ranger is fine, then. So it depends what player are you.
If Basilisk Venom is so bad, can please devs take it from thief and give to ranger? I would love such good defiance-bar breaker as elite.
Elementalist (power) in one of fractals did steady 60k damage.
Not to mention in many fights you are punished for not stacking at boss in melee range. All those strategies for dungeon bosses who do strong attacks if someone is at range (and solution that make fight trivial – is all stack melee), all those fractal fights like Mai trin etc etc etc.
Name any fight where staying all-ranged will make fight faster and easier that all-melee stack?
This is false. At range you won’t even get attacked therefore having buffs and healing isn’t needed.
Please play in group content.
Or read my post above with example how i did Vale Guardian without pressing heal once.
Not dodged once (didnt need with 2 druids).Or same fight with VG when i tried stay in range and was constantly hit by un-dodgable damage all time and many dodge-able AOE’s.
And why did you get hit by undodgable damage and aoes? Simple really your team and you failed to do mechanics like green circles and ccing the boss.
You dident have to worry about blue melee teleport mechanic on top of all the other things you got hit by that your team mates probabely avoided due to blocking/buffing and healing eachother.
Have you thought about what would happen if the two druids just took we heal as one and sword torch?
Thats basicly the same you are doing by going ranged and not being with the group.
You choose to ignore example how i didnt had to press heal once in all fight in melee stack?
Or that all high level group content REQUIRE stacking. You can avoid stack of cause, but you will just make fights harder (i.e. no choice but to stack unless you are masochist).
If someone dont like Forced-to-stack playstyle (since by not stacking you do much less dmg, you dont get any buffs or heals), please support.
Or some people will pretend AOE spam heal-spam buff doesnt exist in melee stacks and pretend its safer in range where you are on your own, spammed with AoE’s and dots.
Please play in group content.
I play only group content. Ranged is safe and away of any damage that’s why you don’t need any of the buffs and healing.
Funny that you mentioned VG though I guess nobody ranged when they were at the green circles.
4 of melee jumped to circles, including me, since i also had to stay in melee.
Oh, you can try stand in ranged, but you wont get perma-alacrity-perma-might-25-perma-haste-perma-heals-perma-defence buffs.
As you didnt read my post, i write again – i didnt had to press heal once in full fight. Staying in melee.
This is false. At range you won’t even get attacked therefore having buffs and healing isn’t needed.
Please play in group content.
Or read my post above with example how i did Vale Guardian without pressing heal once.
Not dodged once (didnt need with 2 druids).
Or same fight with VG when i tried stay in range and was constantly hit by un-dodgable damage all time and many dodge-able AOE’s.
Ranged builds, with a few exceptions, have lower dps than melee regardless of boons. It’s the classic case of risk vs. reward, where rangeds usually have a dramatically lower risk.
You risk less in melee range in group content than staying in ranged distance.
You get all defence buffs/spam healed in melee range.
And at range you only have your own healing/own defence buffs.
It is down to your choice in class too. Though you will still be “sub-optimal” not taking advantage of group buffs and such, Elementalist has a lot of ranged cleave. Ranger simply lacks this due to balancing.
A lot of posters here are giving ‘weapon-swap’ lectures and practical advice, which is all well and good, and makes a lot of sense.
As you can see however, the OP is after more of a roleplaying experience as a ranger, it has nothing to do with his practicality. Of course he could just weapon swap to Melee, but he wants to roleplay the ranger. I don’t know if I agree with the sentiment but you gotta take that into account if you are going to advise him.
I dont roleplay ranged, i just saw that this game has ranged and i like idea and i dont understand why ranged option exits but not viable in group activities due to “stacking”.
This is where you are mistaken. Ranged is definitely viable, it just isn’t optimal. There is no logical or balance reason that it should be optimal, when it is by far safer. The reason it isn’t optimal, as I explained earlier in this thread, is because it’s a skill based game. You increase the range of the boons/buffs/heals, you reduce the skill needed to play.
You are actually safer in melee blob, getting constant heals and protective buffs.
How being ranged, away from heals and buffs, be safer?
It is no meant for wvw zerg.
And staying ranged is simply trading dmg for survival.
Read post above this one.
For example, in PvE raids you have more survival in melee stack than outside it (because you range).
Its not like playing melee require more skills in raid, for example.
I did Vale Guardian fight recently. I didnt bother at all about staying alive since 2 druids kept AOE healing “stack” and we all had block/evade buffs all time.
I just used attack skill, not once i bother to heal myself despite boss doing damage to us, etc.
Actually staying ranged and staying alive in this fight would require skill. Since i would lose “immortality” from stack heal-buff spamm and would rely only on my heal.
People who say that stacking in melee blob requires more skill are not honest, i think. Now it takes more skill to stay ranged and survive with no AOE heals and buffs.
It is down to your choice in class too. Though you will still be “sub-optimal” not taking advantage of group buffs and such, Elementalist has a lot of ranged cleave. Ranger simply lacks this due to balancing.
A lot of posters here are giving ‘weapon-swap’ lectures and practical advice, which is all well and good, and makes a lot of sense.
As you can see however, the OP is after more of a roleplaying experience as a ranger, it has nothing to do with his practicality. Of course he could just weapon swap to Melee, but he wants to roleplay the ranger. I don’t know if I agree with the sentiment but you gotta take that into account if you are going to advise him.
I dont roleplay ranged, i just saw that this game has ranged and i like idea and i dont understand why ranged option exits but not viable in group activities due to “stacking”.
Want to sta safe?
Stay ranged.
But accept the fact that
-you will be away from healings and combo Fields
-you will deal Less dmg ( Though a decent burst on the rapid fire skill )
-you will be 1 Less to shard conditions, dmg, boons and so on.I am not saying that you should play properly, but that to sta ranged you ha to trade something else.
And what do i gain from staying range and not switching to melee?
Lower damage (since melee weapons do more damage), no aoe bleed meta-rune on weapon swap etc.?
Seriously, if you design range class, there should be strenghts and weaknesses. Now you lose all by going ranged in group based fights and gain nothing.
Maybe make ranged viable too in group fights? This will broaden options for player builds, all win, noone lose.
The real answer is when you do that content, play the way the team plays. Alternately make your own team, guild, friends group and play how you want.
Team plays this way because buffs/heals are small range and radius.
Not because they want to or insist to, just because of low radius of buffs/heals.
…And cleave, ress easily, mob management, cc bar, boss mechanics…
No cleave on ranged skills.
Mobs management? I am talking about boss fights, where usualy 1 boss.CC bar? What do you mean? I can break CC bar at range just fine.
Boss mechanics – i prefer to be in range, safer this way from boss mechanics.
Yes, no cleave on ranged skill (except, maybe guard scepter), that why it better to melee in bosses that spawn adds, which eliminate the danger faster, and in some cases, rally fallen allies.
No, you cant break cc bar with just longbow 4/5 alone, its group effort, the others in melee are also(or should be) contributing. Also you should, use your entangle, great cc skill, in melee range.
Some boss mechanics wont allow to be too far away, and some will. Again, its about adapting to the group needs.We do not speak these out of spite, but experience. Leading stray pugs in group content can be very frustating once each individual think their own confort zone is more important than the group.
These advices are not imposed manners, they are logical conclusions of many iterations.
Lead your own group that will be the best teacher.
Pets to break. Also 4 and 5 from shortbow and (if i really need break bar) racial daze skill.
p.s. I dont use longbow. I want to, but i dont use. In current state it is very underpowered weapon.
So why not increase buff/heal radius, why it isnt done?
Because there is a thing called weapon swap.
There are many encounters and situations where having a ranged weapon is essential, but playing only from range is a detriment to your team. You can have two weapons equipped so I don’t see where your problem is.
No problem, i just enjoy this game (and others) as ranged character.
I dont undestand why Anet designed this game in such way that i am forced to stack in melee range on ranged build.
The real answer is when you do that content, play the way the team plays. Alternately make your own team, guild, friends group and play how you want.
Team plays this way because buffs/heals are small range and radius.
Not because they want to or insist to, just because of low radius of buffs/heals.
…And cleave, ress easily, mob management, cc bar, boss mechanics…
No cleave on ranged skills.
Mobs management? I am talking about boss fights, where usualy 1 boss.
CC bar? What do you mean? I can break CC bar at range just fine.
Boss mechanics – i prefer to be in range, safer this way from boss mechanics.
The real answer is when you do that content, play the way the team plays. Alternately make your own team, guild, friends group and play how you want.
Team plays this way because buffs/heals are small range and radius.
Not because they want to or insist to, just because of low radius of buffs/heals.
I am understand that to get essential buffs (like 25 stacks of might) and to get heals, i need to stack in melee range. I understand this mechanic.
I just ask why buff/heal range is so small? If developers increase range so that ranged classes can also get it, nothing will change in game difficulty and this wont be even some buff. Only difference would be ranged players can range and not stack in melee all time.
So why not increase buff/heal radius, why it isnt done?
Solution: since forced “stacking” happens because low buff range – increase buff range to 900.
This changes nothing except no longer requiring ranged builds to stay always (“stack”) in melee.
Do same for druid AOE heals. Once again this wont change amount of people healed in now way, except removing obligatory melee stacking for ranged builds and people who prefer ranged playstyle.
I play Ranger, which has option to go melee, but i prefer to play ranged Ranger. I am always asked to “stack”, i.e. to stay always in melee range near boss on top all other players.
This constantly happens in group content like raids/fractals and even WvW.
Ranged already does lower damage, not only lower damage but we dont have cleaves that melee has (no traits need to slot).
And now we basically also need to stay in melee, in every group activity.
Rangers, warriors, thieves and engi’s are not as good as the other classes.
Shouldnt Anet fix this?
I remember getting first time in melee vs Tempest. Died just in few seconds, those 2.5K+ crit spam.
Didnt except ranged class like mages outdps melee classes, but whatever.
What is best build for Power ranger (weapons, traits, runes/sigils)?
And what will be best in POF expansion, you think?
p.s.
I am a bit confused by numbers in GW2 wiki. 2-handed greatsword auto-attacks do less dmg than 1-handed sword?
I just noticed there is hate for Rangers, specifically.
Killed Hydra queen, got “Gold” participation. No achievement.
No it wont be as fast farm group, you know why its fast? becouse of the requirments that say you cant bring your ranger.
I play druid in raids and most fights condi ranger is totaly welcome into the group.
Bear bow longbow ranger is however not.
People are getting kicked from WvW groups are both condi and power rangers. They kick just all rangers from squad, no exception.
And those "no rangers’ in fractal groups dont check either your power or condi ranger, they just dont accept class.
About raids, you play druid (heal-buff bot) in raids because no one wants you as dps in raid (or other rangers as dps). In fights where healbotting is not needed – like fractal farm i mentioned – you are blocked by same “no rangers” LFMs.
(edited by Bratec.7136)
Fractals: Just create your own group and don’t join farm runs.
So i am locked out of joining farm groups in fractals. Unless i make my own, but this wont be such fast farm groups, since its not 3ele+chrono+warr setup, right?
And Raid groups?
Whom they will take – Ranger or Elementalist in Raid group? I.e. i am locked out of this content as well.
(edited by Bratec.7136)
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