Showing Posts For Bredgen.6721:
Seems like the other professions are invading the thief forums… Can’t seem to point out the only escape mechanism against CC is gone and we don’t have a stability skill to deal with stuns.
And instead of fixing it, other professions come in to say, no problem dude, thief nerf is fine because you have lyssa runes. Can’t get any easier for thieves. Next nerf is probably change to HP.
Dagger storm give stability. You do have a stability skill.
inc “But I don’t like that elite” post
Here’s why if you haven’t played thief, you shouldn’t post here.
Dagger storm gives you stability, sure. It also has a cast time of like a second before the thief starts spinning. It also DOESN’T break stun (which is the whole point here). It also has a 90s CD. It also removes the main Elite skill thieves use in WvW (Basilisk Venom) or PvE (Thieves guild). Finally, you CAN’T use shadow return while dagger storming because shadow return has a cast time, so it queue’s up after dagger storm. You have to waste a dodge and then shadow return (which still uses it’s stupid cast time) to get back.
Btw, what you said is like saying “Oh btw, you can’t use Supply drop on your engi anymore because you need stability on a huge CD. Use Mortar turret instead (i know turret doesn’t give stability, this is an analogy)”.
So basically, in order to not get stunned, he needs to put a stunbreak on his bar. Good thing thief can run 3 stunbreaks and be perfectly viable.
E:
Basically the complaint here is that he can no longer spam his stunbreak, which was pretty kitten OP before. And then, because of this, he complains without making any minor changes to his build. He could easily change his build slightly (Literally change one utility, a rune set, etc) and be fine. But no he wants it to be like it was.Seems like the nerf worked as intended.
So thieves now have to run all 3 stun breakers to be viable. Cool, that discounts all of our other utility skills. Great way to promote build diversity right?
Here’s the thing, having 3 stun breakers on our bar is all fine and dandy. But that means you can only dodge out of 3 stuns, which come FAST. It is so easy to put someone in a situation where they have to use multiple stun breakers. This is where the lack of stability hurts and where shadow return came in.
This nerf is NOT okay. The way it was before is NOT okay. It needs a middle ground. Something a long the lines where if you use it while stunned/knocked down/launched the shadow return is half as effective, so you’re much closer to the battlefield (and remember, still stunned). You’ll have to use it smartly, and not spammingly.
I actually play thief and dislike the abuse of IR. All I can do here is reiterate, if you think IS/IR was fine you either abused it or never fought against someone who did. No one’s mind will be changed here and none of you are devs, so you can’t change anything no matter how mad you are.
Here’s the thing. WIth the cast time, thieves are way too easy to kill – 1 stun and they are pretty much done. Without the cast time, thieves are hard to kill because you can shadow return while stunned (you are still stunned).
If you really think the way it is now is alright, then something is wrong with you. It needs a middle ground. Something like if you shadow return while stunned/launched/knocked down, the shadow return is half as effective, so you won’t return that far, so you’ll have to use it smartly.
There are few classes that a thief is not capable of three-shotting.
There are also few classes that aren’t capable of 3 shotting thieves.
Seems like the other professions are invading the thief forums… Can’t seem to point out the only escape mechanism against CC is gone and we don’t have a stability skill to deal with stuns.
And instead of fixing it, other professions come in to say, no problem dude, thief nerf is fine because you have lyssa runes. Can’t get any easier for thieves. Next nerf is probably change to HP.
Dagger storm give stability. You do have a stability skill.
inc “But I don’t like that elite” post
Here’s why if you haven’t played thief, you shouldn’t post here.
Dagger storm gives you stability, sure. It also has a cast time of like a second before the thief starts spinning. It also DOESN’T break stun (which is the whole point here). It also has a 90s CD. It also removes the main Elite skill thieves use in WvW (Basilisk Venom) or PvE (Thieves guild). Finally, you CAN’T use shadow return while dagger storming because shadow return has a cast time, so it queue’s up after dagger storm. You have to waste a dodge and then shadow return (which still uses it’s stupid cast time) to get back.
Btw, what you said is like saying “Oh btw, you can’t use Supply drop on your engi anymore because you need stability on a huge CD. Use Mortar turret instead (i know turret doesn’t give stability, this is an analogy)”.
I didn’t read the math, I just read your opening statement and the conclusion.
Why suggest what gear to get without even considering traits? That’s kind of useless if you ask me. For example, you’re saying to take Assassin’s gear, but I’m able to get nearly (or I do get) 100% crit chance with my exotic zerker gear. Ascended assassin gear would just put me further past 100%, and have me waste possible power.
You should probably try accounting for everything that may affect damage before telling people what kind of gear is better.
O what’s the point of comparing it before any nerf to how it is now. Should compare it to before this patch and after.
Like I said, it was really strong, but now it’s quite weak. Need something in the middle imo.
No, sorry but you’re just bad.
It is almost instant lol, but now you need to use it carefully and not spamming it like a kid.
I recommend you to watch this stream :
http://www.twitch.tv/sizer2654He’s the best EU teef and probably the best in the class.
It is not almost instant. The main nerf from it comes from the fact that you can’t cast it and straight away enter the animation to cast shadow return. Now it’s like any other skill where it queue’s up.
For example, if you just started your auto attack skill but need to shadow return, your thief will finish his auto attack then start casting shadow return. This is like 1 second delay at least.
I don’t see why it needed a nerf in the first place. Maybe it gave thieves a bit of movement play and gave them access to getting away from sticky situations even through they are stunned. Unfortunately, thieves paid for that with the lack of access to stability. Now, we can only get out of 3 stuns, assuming you have all 3 of our stun breakers on your bar, which isn’t usually the case, and they are on long CDs.
I’m a teef and in my opinion the skill itself was too OP.
Before any nerf, it gave you a condi removal, stunbreaker, immbo,damage,infinite return range and close gap, lol it was the most OP thing in the kittening game seriously.
Now this skill is finally FINE.
come on before the last patch it gave you the right to spam stunbreaks.
But you’re wrong on a few counts here.
I’ll go down the list of the stuff you said it gives you:
Condi removal/Immob/Dmg/gap closer – Yes.
Stun breaker – No! It USED to be a stun breaker but they removed that. Now it only brings you back when you shadow return. You are still stunned. If you were fighting in a flat area and you shadow returned, and they saw where you went, you’d still be in trouble, although it did give you a bit of breather space.
Infinite return range – Also not true. It brought you back exactly 1200 range. Granted this is relatively far, but a thief can’t do anything at 1200 range. If you ran past the 1200 range (say 1400 range), you’d teleport back to your original position + 200 range. This is how it works from what I’ve observed.
Other than that I kind of agree. It was quite strong. Now it’s very much whatever. That 0.25 second cast time really makes it easy to counter. A single stun, and done. I think a middle ground is needed. I’m not sure how we can find it, but it is needed.
No, sorry but you’re just bad.
It is almost instant lol, but now you need to use it carefully and not spamming it like a kid.
I recommend you to watch this stream :
http://www.twitch.tv/sizer2654He’s the best EU teef and probably the best in the class.
It is not almost instant. The main nerf from it comes from the fact that you can’t cast it and straight away enter the animation to cast shadow return. Now it’s like any other skill where it queue’s up.
For example, if you just started your auto attack skill but need to shadow return, your thief will finish his auto attack then start casting shadow return. This is like 1 second delay at least.
I don’t see why it needed a nerf in the first place. Maybe it gave thieves a bit of movement play and gave them access to getting away from sticky situations even through they are stunned. Unfortunately, thieves paid for that with the lack of access to stability. Now, we can only get out of 3 stuns, assuming you have all 3 of our stun breakers on your bar, which isn’t usually the case, and they are on long CDs.
(edited by Bredgen.6721)
You can’t compare dungeons to fractals, especially now that the rewards for Fractals have been revamped. You can get Pristine Fractal Tokens now on even the lowest level paths, which are an easy way to Ascended Gear. You can also pick up Ascended Weapons from fractal box drops.
Gold for Dungeons, Ascended Gear for Fractals. Makes sense to me. The gear you get from dungeons is basically only good for salvaging Luck.
As for the gold rewards for dungeons, their may be some imbalances, but you’re being way too picky. I only do the easy dungeon runs for the gold. That’s the usual AC1, AC3, COF1, COF2, and HOTW1. Don’t really other with the other paths as they tend to take longer, but that’s six GP their and I’m happy. If I am looking to make more gold or am farming certain dungeon tokens, I run some extra paths but otherwise I like to keep the dungeon running fast, and spend the rest of my time on something I Ike to do, like wvw.
I think you can still compare fractals to dungeons since all the ascended gear is RNG, making it the extra cherry on top and not a reward for completing the dungeon. A consistent reward is the gold value you get at the end, and that is definitely not on par with everything else. Doing a fractal 49 gives me 1.4g, while doing a 7 mins COF p1 gives me 1.26g… big discrepancy there.
As for me being picky. I really don’t think I am being picky here. I’m only being fair. It’s great that you only run the short dungeon paths to get an easy 5-6g. But what if someone runs the longer paths. Why should they get the short end of the stick? Making those give a bit more gold may give more incentive.
Also, you don’t like running dungeons, but others do. I wouldn’t mind spending time perfecting a longer path if the gold reward was good enough. As it stands, there is no point to do any but the short and easy paths.
Yeah this was discussed to great length when the original change was made. People even broke it done path by path just like you did, but anyone who actually runs the paths daily already knows the rewards are out of whack based on length and difficulty.
Unfortunately, all your work of typing all this out won’t make a difference since it falls on deaf ears over at anet. Then again you can’t really call it deaf ears since anet doesn’t actually come to the dungeon forums, more like turning a blind eye?
I figured it would be discussed to death. Unfortunate that they turn a blind eye to it, it really is (read: should) be an easy fix. If they have to change the system around to change the gold value reward… well that wouldn’t be very good.
Making SE 2 and CoF 3 give 1.5 gold isn’t going to encourage any more people to run them.
You’re absolutely right. But at least if you actually do run them, you would get a bit more for the effort.
Edit: Maybe 2g would be more appropriate. So we have more options for 2g paths, other than arah p3 and TA Aetherpath. But they should be worth more than the other same dungeon paths.
(edited by Bredgen.6721)
Before I start, let me just say that Anet making dungeons actually reward gold is awesome. So in that respect, THANKS Anet. Now having said that, when they were putting in the patch to fix the rewards, they said that all dungeons would give between 1g-3g based on path difficulty and length, so why does almost every dungeon path give 1g? Why do some dungeons, which take twice as long as others and are harder, reward the same amount of gold as super easy fast paths?
Note: I don’t really go on these forums very often, so I don’t know if this has been discussed to death. I was pretty content with not saying anything, but when I heard that fractal 49 rewards only 1.5g or something, I figured I’d say something.
So to start, let’s look at current dungeon rewards.
To add to those, fractal 21-30 gives 1.2g, 31-40 gives 1.3g and I believe 41-50 gives 1.4 or 1.5g (please correct me if I’m wrong).
The rewards are pretty lame aren’t they?
Let me point out a few imbalances:
1. Why does doing Arah path 3, one of the supposed harder dungeons (due to mobs + lupi) reward the same amount of gold as AC paths 1/2/3, which are relatively easy.
2. Why does doing fractal 49, an endeavour that can take between 30 mins (with the fastest fractals, no wipes and perfect execution) to 1-2 hours reward the same amount as all AC paths, which can be done in 20 mins easily with a pug group?
3. Why does COF path 3, which is long and can be considered difficult, reward the same amount as COF path 1, which is done in 6-10mins with any pug group?
4. Why does SE path 2, which is much longer than SE paths 1/3 reward the same amount of gold kitten path 1/3?
Anyway, you get the picture.
So how to fix this? Well, you shouldn’t be asking that since the answer is obvious: change the dungeon rewards to actually reflect the dungeon difficulty and length. If this isn’t an easy fix, I don’t know what is.
AC
Path 1: This is easy, and not long. Final boss mechanic is simple. This should reward 1g.
Path 2: Again, not a very hard path. Final boss can be difficult for groups lacking the DPS and organization. Keep this at 1.5g.
Path 3: Easy and short. Should honestly be 1g.
CM
This is a dungeon I don’t run much since I simply don’t like it. With that being said, it’s not exactly difficult and should stay at 1g. Maybe path 2 can be considered for 1.5g, but probably not.
TA
This should stay the same and I’m glad Anet actually put 2g for a change on the Aether path. It is longer, than the other two paths afterall, so this is good.
SE
Like I said earlier, path 1 and 3 are short and easy, with path 1 being shorter. Path 2 is a lot longer than both of the paths and is a bit more difficult. Path 2 should be 1.5g, while the other 2 should stay the same at 1g.
COF
Path 1: Honestly should be 50s, that’s how simple this path is, but should be kept at 1g.
Path 2: It’s slightly more difficult and longer than path 1, but still quite easy, 1g.
Path 3: Longer and more difficult than both paths, upgrade this to 1.5g.
HOTW
Path 2 and 3 should get upgraded to 1.5g. They are longer and more annoying in general.
COE
I’m on the fence on this one. I think all the paths are relatively simple and easy, but don’t know what the community feels about this. They can be considered 1.5g apiece since they are longer than every other 1g path.
Arah
Path 1, 2 & 4: Stay the same.
Path 3: Go up to 2g.
Honestly, the fact that you gotta fight Lupi makes some people shake in their boots.
Fractals:
21-30 – Should be 1g (honestly, not even any instabilities here)
31-40 – Currently it’s like 1.3g. Why? 30s for braving instabilities, some more difficult than others. This should be like 2g or something.
41-50 – Again, higher agony damage, higher mob HP/damage and instabilities. Why only an extra 20s for doing this? This should be like 2.5g-3g.
51+ – I’d say keep these at 3g.
Like I said earlier. The current system is already infinitely better than spamming COF path 1 like before. But it also makes me question sometimes if Anet actually play their own game. If they don’t use optimal builds (which according to streams, they don’t), and then they run the longer paths, which are a lot longer without optimal builds, then how can they not notice that the current system isn’t based on length/difficulty of a path?
Am I being picky? Probably. Is this a huge issue? Not really, but I figured I’d just point it out.
Do you think I’m right? Great, let me know. Do you think I’m wrong? Also great, tell me why.
Sorry this was long, I had too much time on my hands at work, things are a bit slow at the moment.
I think I should add that I am fairly experienced at Thief, as well as most dungeons. I’ve played my Thief most in dungeons, and Guardian I hardly ever touch. I have a good sense of game mechanics (dodging etc). I know both can bring interesting utility – Guardian more so. What would you guys say most experienced groups prefer? I tend to pug but am looking into getting active in more organized play.
If you want to get more into organized play, then you should be comfortable with 1-2-3 characters and have them fully geared. You don’t just have 1 character and only play on that single character. You bring what the group needs, and if you have the choice, you bring whichever one you want.
For example, I have my Warrior, Mesmer & Thief fully geared, with my mesmer lacking the ascended weps. I generally bring Thief (because I’m one of the few in my guild that runs Thief), but I do switch to warrior/mesmer if we need those classes. I also have my guardian fully geared, in case I need to bring him (rarely).
So yea, have a few fully geared toons, and be comfortable on them is my advice.
Both have low HP pools which makes them pretty squishy, with the thief being even more so.
Guardian can bring much more team support with his reflects, aegis, protection, boons and condition removal.
Thief can bring some really beast DPS, 1 low duration projectile absorb, an kitten ton of stealth making dungeon skips no brainers and perma blindness on silver mobs.
I personally think Guardian is harder to play, but that’s just because I’ve barely had practice on my guardian. Thief is easier for me, but that’s because I know how to manage my dodge meter and dps rotations without getting hit. On that note, make sure you know how to dodge as usually 1 strong hit on a thief means insta downed.
On another note, just try them both out, see which one you like best and you enjoy more and stick with that one.
I haven’t read any of the posts in this thread yet, so I may be repeating what others have been saying. But either way, here it goes.
1. First and foremost, I think the dungeons need more unique boss encounters. Bosses like Giganticus Lupicus. Maybe not every dungeon needs an equivalent of him, but it would be great if the higher level dungeons had something like this. This guy is simply the funnest boss in the game and having other bosses with the same difficulty would be awesome.
2. Lose the random champion mini-boss with a TON of health but no new mechanics introduced over time. One example that comes to mind is the dog in CM Explorable. Seriously, that dog takes years to kill and is the same over the entire fight, he’s boring.
3. It would be nice to add some waypoints in some of the dungeons. For example, in Arah path 1, was it intended that there is no WP after the tar elemental fight? It takes a good 5 mins to get back to lupicus if someone dies.
4. Exploits and bug fixes. Would be amazing to have all these sorted out.
5. Remove Magic find from dungeons, entirely. Please. I would ask to remove it from the game but that may be going too far.
Can’t think of anything else right now. I would also like to say that the extra dungeon rewards that were added are great.
I honestly disagree with most of your points. I’ve been running the dungeons lately and have been really enjoying them.
Immunities
I’ve never ran into this problem. Yes, I play a thief instead of the necromancer but I still get to fear people every now and then when I steal the skull that fears foes. It has almost always worked, even on bosses with defiant stacks. The only times it didn’t work is on mobs with stability (mainly in Arah) or those rooms in CM.
Speaking of which, that’s one example that you mentioned for mobs that were immune to your CC. Only CM has this (from my experiences so far). Why would you put all dungeons in this group if this problem only arises in CM? CM is designed around humans being clever and having set traps for you. So you have to maneuver around those traps. I just did the butler path with a full PUG party, and we breezed through that because we discussed how to get through the room. It was simple.
Invulnerability
Being able to attack mobs from a vantage point, but the monster can’t attack you, how is that fun? You are merely exploiting the boss because he can’t reach you. Unless Anet implements ways for each and every monster int he game to hit people that are on vantage points, I don’t think this will change.
Furthermore, it’s awesome to kite and control the monsters in question instead of finding a safe point and mindlessly spam 1.
Armor Repairs
I don’t mind this. I like the fact that when you die, its noticeable and encourages you to play better.
Gimmicky obstacles
I discussed this a bit in the immunity section. But again, so far, I don’t mind what Anet has thrown at me. I find it fun to figure out the strategy behind fighting a battle and then executing it. If it doesn’t work, figure out what to change and do it again. Or those obstacles like the bees in TA, what’s so difficult about them? If you pull them to the fountain it’s so easy to dodge back to the bridge until they reset so you can get to the fountain again.
Waypoints
I somewhat agree on this. I don’t think there needs to be a WP in front of every single boss room (that’ll make it too easy to zerg it) but some dungeons desperately need closer WPs, TA especially.
Bosses
Again, somewhat agree. Some bosses DO have too much HP and take forever to die, like that stupid dog. Small bosses shouldn’t take too long to kill (which is the case, most of the time). I think big important bosses should retain their large HP pools though, or if anything, nerf them by a small amount.
Fun
Like I said, I’m having a ton of fun running all these dungeons. Not all of them are as straight forward and linear as you think. Back to CM, there was one party where you can easily run past some mobs, go up some stairs, skip a large pack and use LOS to take out the silver snipers. It was great. Arah also has a lot of mobs you can go around depending on the route you take.
Finally, it honestly seems like you’re taking your opinion after doing very few dungeons. Try them a bit more, practice and they won’t be so tough anymore. A good example is giganticus lupicus. He was a huge WTF for me when I first fought him. Now I think he’s a pretty fair boss and just punishes sloppy play. He’s an annoying dog, but he’s cool all the same.
Oh and those TA flowers that spawn on top of you, someone said it earlier in the thread, those things revive you if you go down and you kill one, their awesome.
I recently started to actively try and beat all the dungeons to get dungeon master title (since I’m close anyway) and ran into this problem.
I never did any SE Exp before the recent buff. A couple of friends and I tried path 2 today, thought it was pretty easy, and then we hit the final boss. Is this really how he’s supposed to be tuned? We were able to get both golems to maybe 90-95% hp before we got absolutely demolished because we were running out of endurance. The Mark II’s static field move is just ridiculous. He often would send just 1 ball at me, and if I was too slow to dodge it, it would he me 3-4 TIMES (pretty much my full hp bar) before the static field even showed up.
How the hell do you beat this boss with the way he’s currently tuned? This surpasses any giganticus lupicus/simin difficulty. This is dumb.
Edit: fixed those “kittens”.
(edited by Bredgen.6721)
Same thing happened to me.