Guild Wars 2

Groups will progress through content at different rates. Some will get through wing A before others do and move onto Wing B. That doesn’t mean that those still on wing A wont eventually progress. They’ll just do so at a different rate. They might in turn be better at other encounters.

We see this all the time in other games with raids. Just because people aren’t able to defeat a raid at the same rate as some of the top guilds doesn’t stop them from trying and eventually doing so.

Personally the inclusion of raids is what’s drawing me back to the game. I’ve always loved it, but didn’t enjoy the Event, Fractal endgame grind. While it felt big, it wasn’t a good system for people with more than 4 friends, generally.

I’m really excited.

My guild came to GW2 with the promise of a new direction for MMOs. While we loved leveling and PVP in the game, we felt lost after we all reached max level. We did some WvW and started on new toons, but ultimately, without things to do as a guild that challenged us, we eventually started playing other games again (Rift, SWTOR and WoW) to find that guild-based challenge.

We were so excited to hear that GW2 would finally have the guild-based endgame we’re looking for. Only to find out that it’s behind a rather large paywall and required large numbers to complete.

This is fine for large guilds that have been around since launch that can afford that. But what about us looking for a good reason to return to the game? We’d have to either give up our identity and join another guild and do challenges under their tag, defeating the purpose of our guild in the first place or we’d have to recruit like crazy and farm a lot of content that we’re not really interested in farming just to do progression as a guild together.

It’s very, very prohibitive to guilds in our situation. It’s just not worth the time/effort to come back. It caters to the large established guilds not ones that want to return and rebuilt as a result of this launch.

AnemoneMeer.7182:

Why not make it an open zone, somewhere in the world. Say, southeast of cursed shore. Lower Arah or something, with it being an open zone scaled up faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar higher than Orr, with legitimate undead armies, and reward chests scattered about (Behind gates and such the players have to smash open) with actual, legitimate rewards. High amounts of exotics, rares, and ectos as a actual drop, but the area is pretty much scaled to level 90 enemies as a minimum. Start an event whenever a gate takes damage to make sure people can’t simply run around.

If the rewards are legitimately good (New gear skins, precursors, etc), people will come.

Again, not a bad idea. But not a replacement for raiding. Part of the idea is for coordinated groups to work as a team. Adding more random bodies to the mix throws the coordination aspect to hell.

I would love to see more of all types of content in this game. It nearly appeals to everyone as it is, with the obvious exception to Raiding guilds. Just seems sad that there’s so much hate for the very idea, despite some very good ideas and conversations about how Raids could be included without it causing any trouble for anyone else in the game.

Tarn.1374:

I’d like to see them work more on their open-world dungeons and give that love. It could be done really well I think if given a bit more time/thought.

I think those would be a great addition to the game. Not a replacement for what many of us are asking for, but certainly would be an awesome addition!

LoreChief.8391:

No seriously, get as much attention to this issue as you can. I’m glad that people want to add stuff to the game, but for this particular suggestion, I want ANet to respond to you people, and let you know that it’s not going to happen. I wish many GM-posts for you and your suggestions.

Why would you want us to not get what we’re asking for? If it doesn’t affect your game play or give us items any better than yours, what’s the issue? Please, be detailed. Give me something other than the “slippery slope” argument and the “gear treadmill” arguments.

LoreChief.8391:

“many of us who enjoy that type of gameplay would make GW2 their main MMO and fully support this game monetarily if there was coordinated instance dungeons with large group sizes”.

So… you want to take a lot of people, to do coordinated events, most likely both challenging and rewarding. HMMM… where could we find in game, something just like that? I’d ask my guild but most of them are in WvW right now, doing.. I don’t know.. dancing competitions or something, I’m sure.

On a more serious note, games like WoW and Rift have entire teams dedicated to creating raids over multiple months, and even then a lot of them turn into outdated flops (regardless of the tiered itemization). The teams we have for ANet are dedicated to doing so much more than creating whats essentially a dungeon for 25+ players. If you wanted that, then they might as well just take something like AC, increase the boss health by 500%, and allow you to take 25 people in (good luck coordinating that with our lack of official LFG system!)

“I don’t feel like the message is being received.” You didn’t get your personalized letter of receipt sent in decorative envelope directly to your personal mailing address? You know, the one with the gold (A) stamp made of filigree wax sealing? I’m sure if you start another post and make that you first comment, they’ll get right on that.

You’re asking for something that’s completely unrelated to the game. They never said “we promise large scale raids like all the other games have, or even with our special ANet sauce on them!”. Asking for that is no different than asking for first-person-shooting interfaces for ranged classes & slot machines. That’s just not part of this games big, or little picture.

“…would make GW2 their main MMO and fully support this game monetarily…” – You have to at least accept that at this point, with so many people playing the game, and it’s growing population, that ANet has captured their target audience, right? That does not include dungeon-crawling raiders, mind you. They are not out to take another games demographic, and cater it to them just to get their money. They’ll lose out on so much more, with the population we have, of players that don’t want to spend 7+ hours yelling at each other over vent/mumble to stand out of fire. The second ANet says “we’re going to have raiding!” is the same second that most of the game population says “this is where dev time is going now? Guess I’m out.” Not that it matters, because they aren’t here to constantly entice subscription fees with tiny little dribbles of patch notes that say “oh we finally increased the damage on that one rogue skill by a .05 coefficient”.

THIS. IS. NOT. THAT. GAME.

“Don’t allow your fears of other game design to sway you. Guild Wars 2 rewrote the book on every aspect of an MMO, we trust that raiding wouldn’t be much different.” – Yes, GW2 rewrote raiding too, rewrote it right out of the story, because it doesn’t belong in this game.

Sincerely,
-A Sincerely Sarcastic Kitten

Honestly, no need to be like that. We’re trying to offer up intelligent conversation on the topic. If you have valid points to bring up, please do so without the sarcasm and snark.

That being said, if raiding wont ever happen in this game, we’ll gladly stay with other games that do provide it. However, that can’t be a good attitude to take with the game. “If you don’t like it, go away” is exactly the type of attitude that GW2 is trying to avoid.

If the content isn’t required to get the best items in game, and it doesn’t interfere with your gameplay in any way, why the hate?

As for WvW, that’s good for your guild. My guild (and many other guilds) aren’t PVP guilds and prefer to do PVE. So instanced large group dungeons that provide nothing special outside of what you get in 5 man content is what we want.

It’s not much, but people just hate on the idea just because we call it a “raid”

I’ve said this before, but I don’t feel the message is being received.

Everyone says “If raiding is brought into the game, it’ll force the game into tiered progression and raiders will get the best gear!” etc etc etc. Or that “It’ll be just like it is in other games!”

I can understand these fears. But let’s just get this out there in the opening post; It doesn’t need to be that way.

Guild Wars 2 breaks the common perceptions in many aspects of an MMO. It does things differently than other MMOs in almost every aspect of the game. So, the fear that Raiding would be like it is in other games is a fear people should quickly put to rest. ArenaNet would likely put their own twist on things. Making raiding in GW2 a different animal than it is in WoW, Rift, EQ, etc.

ArenaNet has gone out of it’s way to try to make gear accessible for everyone, from crafters to dungeon crawlers. While Ascended gear is only Fractals at the moment, they’ve said from the launch of Fractals that it would make Ascended gear elsewhere in the game as well. Raiding would likely be no different in terms of rewards than a normal explorable or fractal rewards.

So, many of you who are likely new to this topic on the forums will ask “Why do we need it in the game?”

The answer is: You don’t need it. But many of us who enjoy that type of gameplay would make GW2 their main MMO and fully support this game monetarily if there was coordinated instanced dungeons with large group sizes (aka Raid content).

If raid content is added, will this ruin you game? Presumably No. We trust that ArenaNet would be able to introduce this content without it harming the play style others have grown accustomed to.

Don’t allow your fears of other game design sway you. Guild Wars 2 rewrote the book on every aspect of an MMO, we trust that raiding wouldn’t be much different.

Quiznos.4296:

Even if you want something more difficult with higher player caps…
So they take a dungeon that takes an hour to complete with 5 people and change it to one that takes 3 hours to complete and you can have up to 15 players and the reward is tripled.
Is that what you want? Spending significantly more time waiting to group-up?

Or group up with a guild. That’s part of the point. But personally I would like to see content designed with 10-20 players in mind with a mode designed for pugs (story) and a mode designed for organized groups (guilds).

Rewards can be the same as anything else in the game.

Lane.3410:

There are a lot of other MMOs out there that are beautifully catered towards raiders, I don’t see why GW2 has to be one of them as well.

I was/am attracted to the casual nature of GW2. Once raids are added games cease to be casual, IMO. Suddenly there’s a level of exclusivity. Raiders will always have the best everything: best gear, best titles, best vanity items, etc., basically leaving anyone who doesn’t like to raid inferior.

Plus, I can honestly say I’ve met very few people who raided for the enjoyment of it. They do it because it’s the only way to be “the best”. I’m not saying nobody enjoys it, but I really do believe that those who do enjoy raiding are a very small percentage of any given playerbase. It’s not something I’m convinced the masses would participate in or enjoy, so I’d rather see developmental resources go elsewhere.

Everyone says this because “that’s what other games do!”

How much of Guild Wars 2 is like other games? Why do we think that raiding would be the same as other games when nothing else in this game is like other games?

WoW doesn’t do raids very well, to be honest. Their mechanics are always rehashes of other raids from the past at this point.

ArenaNet has a real opportunity to do something different with raids. With the fast that the trinity is abolished in this game, raid mechanics have to be different. Because there’s no trinity, it means you can bring anyone.. you dont need to hunt for a healer or a tank, etc.

Having exclusive items for doing content is fine, so long as the items aren’t more powerful than anything else in game.

It’s almost like there’s a part of this community who believes that everyone should get a trophy, win, lose or draw.

If I don’t do the 5 man Explorables, I don’t get their dungeon set. Do the work, you get the rewards. Just like if I don’t put the time in to get my legendary, I don’t have one to show for it.

Raiding content is just a different kind of work. Defeat difficult content, get a title, or a skin and some tokens for a dungeon set. Shows you did the content and can show off you’re new shiny stuff. Same way you would show off your new shiny legendary.

Azzrael Deathbane.4965:

While I agree with the Op in that this game is sadly missing something, I am not sure what it is. I don’t think raids are the way forward, as IMO it will attract more grind elements in the way of rewards, armour etc.

Layka.7465:

All I know is that all the games that copied WoW sadly disappear sooner or later.

I agree that most games do sadly fade away, however, GW2 brings somthing else to the party that other MMOs have not, graphics are a lot more superior just for a start.

Everyone says this. It’ll add grind. It doesn’t have to. No one is asking for a grind. They’re asking for content. Just because other games have a gear treadmill grind doesn’t mean, at all that GW2 has to be that way.

I wish people would think outside of the box when they hear raids and consider what ArenaNet’s vision of it would be if they were to do them.

Grind isn’t always a bad thing either. Grind means effort. Effort means satisfaction when a reward is given. As long as the grind isn’t boring and not fun. Making content fun and rewarding in of itself with a reward for doing it more than once is a solid game design.

No one says that Mario is grindy. Why? Because it’s fun to play over and over again. Why must content only be good once in an MMO before people start complaining anyhow?

Guild Wars 2 has nothing for guilds to do outside of WvW. Which is sad, because the guild system in this game has a lot of potential that has just gone to waste. Considering the name, I fully expected being in a top tier guild would mean something in the end. Ends up, if you’re not PVP or just a guild with a mass of warm bodies moving in and out of it, it’s not worth it.

There’s no "gel" that sticks a guild together. No challenge to overcome that creates that lasting bond between yourself and your guildmates. Some of my best friends and business partners I met through raiding in other games. We bonded over the success of our guild in challenging content.

The content alone is one thing this game really lacks outside of zergs or 5 man groups. That content is what brings people together. Without it, the game is missing a critical piece to the MMO puzzle.

To have a successful MMO, you need:

1. Compelling "Leveling" process. This doesn’t have to mean levels, but the process of gaining in strength over time needs to keep players interested. Guild Wars 2 has this.

2. You need to have PVP that offers players a challenge against other players and rewards skill and strategy. Again, Guild Wars 2 has this.

3. You must have fun meta-game events. Things to do in the meantime between content. Keg-Brawl, holiday events, Dynamic Events, etc. Things that allow smaller groups to do on the fly without much effort that offer time-killers outside of normal content. Guild Wars does this well.

4. Challenging content to do with close friends or meet new people. Most games have this in the way of Dungeons. You and 3-4 other players get together to challenge these dungeons and get some kind of reward for doing so. Again, GW2 does this well enough. While I think the reward vs. challenge is off a bit, mostly due to one-shot mechanics, this game does have it and it does offer some hard challenges.

5. Crafting system that keeps people interested. Not much to say on this, but Guild Wars Excels in this area too.

6. Collection and Exploration. Lots of areas to discover and collect item from.

7. Last but not least, content that brings a guild together. A reason for guilds to work together. It’s the reason why many people play an MMO. The social aspect of it, and nothing does this like group content that requires communication, coordination and precise execution with your guild. Sadly, this just doesn’t exist in this game. There’s nothing beyond 5 players in PVE that isn’t solved simply by throwing more bodies at the events. Even if they were designed to be done in a way that required some kind of skill, more bodies just makes it a lol-fest. If you die, you’ll get rezzed. If you see someone die, you rez them. No big.

Seriously though, this game is missing a major element of what makes entire guilds move to a game.

Guilds who challenge content will challenge developers to design better events and better dungeons with more interesting mechanics and mechanics that are challenging, not because they’re going to kill out outright, but because they’re hard to do right. They will challenge the developers to ensure that abilities are tuned and fixed for PVE.

No one challenges the developers more than PVE Raid guilds and PVP guilds. The process of eeking out every drop of performance from your toon demands that abilities are balanced and functional. This benefits everyone.

Raids don’t have to be about the grind. We just want ArenaNet’s version of it. Weapon Skins, tokens, etc are fine.

robocafaz.9017:

I’m sorry, I really don’t think GW2 would benefit from any sort of structured raid. What it does need is more end-game areas with large boss events with better rewards (and bigger repercussions for not running back when you die.)

I think the Temple of Grenth is a good example of a boss fight with interesting mechanics that will wipe the entire zerg if people don’t pay attention to them. But the boss himself is too much of a spank.

I think the Gates of Arah is a good example of a boss fight that’ll wreck your face off (like in that one movie with Nicholas Cage and John Travolta) if people aren’t paying attention to him, but he lacks interesting other mechanics.

I was excited about the big meta events. And I still think they’re great! They provide a lot of fun for you and a group of friends or just show up with the rest of the random mob of players.

But, this is something I would do in the meantime between farming mats and raiding in other games. For example, these are akin to zone events in Rift. You would do zone events because they were fun and got some currency out of it to help itemize your gear. But mostly because they were something to do.

Zone events in Rift and Dynamic Events in Guild Wars 2 simply doesn’t replace raiding for an end-game raider. It’s about working with your guild to conquer challenging content. Needing to work as a group. Knowing what your specific role is in the group and executing that role with precision and skill. You simply do not get that in an open world event like this.

Open World events have their place, and should be made harder and provide better rewards, sure. But a replacement for raiding? I don’t think so.

I’ve said this over and over again. Raiding doesn’t need to be for everyone. Just like world exploration isn’t for everyone, or crafting, or PVP. Raiding does target a specific set of players. We’re not the majority, but we do push the content and challenge developers to better the game by providing deeper depth to their content and mechanics.

Raiding content needs to be optional and non-intrusive on the rest of the game, much like PVP. I’d be completely fine if Raiding worked exactly like PVP where everything done in Raids has zero effect on world PVE. So long as we got to see challenging large group content.

xCrusadentx.2784:

If you’re on the side that views fractals and dungeons as grind, then you should see why raids aren’t popular; we don’t need any more grind then we already have to deal with.

Here’s the thing, the gear from a raid wouldn’t be any different statwise than you would get from a fractal. Hell, it could just be dungeon sets, leaving the “best” gear in fractals.

Honestly, it’s about the challenge and the content, not the grind. Every person I’ve seen in here who hate the idea of raiding in GW2 have quoted “grind” as the main issue. Well, I’m certain we don’t have to have it that way. Content driven dungeons are completely viable for this game.

My guild would make GW2 their main game if we could raid in it. As it stands right now, there’s just nothing to do for a PVE guild to do as a guild. It’s really sad that GW2 is largely incomplete by missing out on this opportunity to be a top-end game that attracts MMO players of all types, encourages a positive change to the genre and builds a community.

Amariithynar.1470:

Take things a step further than group events: Guild Events.

Those would be a great addition as well. Not a replacement for raiding, I think, but I’d love to see this in game. More things to do of all types is always good.

The sad thing is, I love this game. Love the mechanics and the gameplay style. I think raiding would be amazing in this game. However, without it, there’s nothing for a PVE progression guild to do. So, we end up only playing it every once in a while, looking at it longingly, wishing for something that may never be.

We’re just not playing the game as much. And when we’re not playing the game, we’re not buying stuff on the BLTC. We’re not adding to the community. We’re not populating the world, etc.

Every other type of MMO player is represented here. The Dynamic Event experiement to replace the need and want for raids didn’t work.

So now we’re here, trying to convince ArenaNet to take a second look at raiding and build something that fits this game for raiders like us. We want it to fit the game we love and we don’t want to ruin the game for anyone else.

Going to have to disagree with you Mungrul. The simple fact that this game has more of a horizontal progression platform means that most players coming here to raid will understand that power levels wont increase much (if at all). That raids are progression (defeat more bosses at harder difficulties) that is content driven, not gear driven.

There will always be some who will want things to be like other games. Most of us aren’t asking for that here, if you read the posts by the people in this thread.

You accused us of being narrow minded about end-game. But it seems that you have this narrow vision of what raids entail and what they’ll bring. You’re worried about the way things are in other games. However, nothing in GW2 is like other MMOs. Why think that raids will somehow be different?

Hyde.6189:

There’s no reason that 5-man encounters can’t be made just as difficult and interesting as any raid encounter. Unfortunately none of the encounters in GW2 are that great, except maybe a couple of those in Arah, but that’s just because ANet’s PvE encounter design needs some work, not because we need raids.

That’s only part of what we want. Challenging content yes, but also content that me and my guild (or a really good pug group) can do as a unit. 5 player content just doesn’t cut it.

As it stands now, there’s nothing in PVE for a guild to do as a guild that doesn’t involve open world zergs and breaking up into smaller groups.

Korrigan.4837:

I’ve been a fervent raider in WoW, up to hardcore (hard/heroic modes), up to 4 days a week. And that’s exactly why I don’t want raids in this game.
Elitist, scheduled content, which ends being like a second job, has no place in a video game people play for fun.
5 man content like fractals, which is a huge improvement over the old dungeons (which are going to be revamped), is perfect. It’s accessible, a group can be formed “on the fly” without having to schedule your life around the game.
Want to raid? Play “pandaland”. You can raid there, and still play GW2 since there’s no subscription. But I don’t want this game ruined by that kind of “end game” content.
This game needs to stay on track with its manifesto. They need to add more content in the open world, things like housing you can decorate, mounts you can collect, fishing, mini games like the keg brawl one, open world bosses, etc…, and not more instanced stuff.

Look, Just because Blizzard designed raids to work in a way that you had to WORK to get the best gear and see all the content doesn’t at all mean that has to happen here. It doesn’t mean that raid gear will be the best. It doesn’t mean that you have to raid to enjoy the end game.

As many have said, there’s lots of other endgame activities for those who don’t like raiding and if done right, including raids wont impact people who don’t want to do them AT ALL.

This nonsensical idea that somehow adding content that obviously people want will somehow ruin your game is pretty out there. Especially considering how many “sacred cows” ArenaNet changed to break the molds of games like WoW and Rift. I’m certain they can change the way we think about Raid content in MMOs.

Mungrul.9358:

Then you’re playing a different game to me. I’m always exploring, making alts, playing a little WvW, doing a dungeon here and there, crafting gear, etc.
There’s plenty to keep me occupied.

Your endgame is not my endgame.
Your idea of what endgame should be is close-minded and conservative and guided by your experiences with other games which you’d rather GW2 was.

You just said it. Your end game is doing all those things. And that’s fine. That’s one type of end game. One that many enjoy. Another is WvW and sPVP. Others enjoy 5 man content. And then there’s those of us who want to raid with our guild.

You may not enjoy it, but you don’t have to. Why should your version of Endgame be the only end game that’s viable? Why not allow everyone to have the endgame they want?

Sylv.5324:

ASB.4295:

Feeling bad for the scrubs and bads who cannot get into those raids and therefore attain the gear? Easy: Just make the gear a timed exclusive to the raid, and allow non-dedicated players to attain it via non-raid means at the same time you introduce a new and better raid/gear tier. That way scrubs won’t cry about inaccessibility, and the dedicated player will always have the privilege of staying one step ahead than the rest

This is exactly the type of attitude showing why I hope they never allow raids. All it does is set the community against each other.

You get this in every MMO that does or does not have raids. In GW2, you get that now when pugging Fractals.

Raids aren’t the problem there. It’s the players. You’re focusing on the wrong things.

NetherDiver.6079:

We have something like raids in the game in the form of dragon encounters and temple events. They just require no thought or coordination.

Imagine you, and 9-19 of your buddies doing a more complex and difficult versions of those fights without 50 other people zerging and dying, left-right-and-sideways.

Makes my mouth water.

Hobocop.1508:

Why can’t they? There just needs to be mechanics that can’t be overcome by throwing more numbers at them. It hasn’t been done because no one has really tried yet. Easier to just pop in the same stuff that’s been in every MMO since ever because that’s what’s ‘expected’ of the genre.

It’s not that it hasn’t been tried. Rift has done things like this with the Colossi in Storm Legion. However, it largely becomes a faceroll when you throw hundreds of people at it.

Throwing more people at something makes it more chaotic, removing any kind of strategy for a group. You may know the strategy, but likely what will end up happening is one of the other people outside of your group will do those interesting mechanics for you or mess them up.

In the end, your guild group (or group of friends) didn’t get to do the content the way they wanted to do it and strategize together, working as a unit and achieving a goal together.

There’s a place for open world Dynamic Event content (I love it) and there’s a place for large group instanced content. They provide very different types of enjoyment.

Erasculio.2914:

Bruno Sardine.2907:

Only if you assume the raiding platform to be exactly identical to the traditional systems. A raid was awesome due to the challenging mechanics requiring good execution and coordination of abilities, the lame part was the gear grinding aspect to slow you down.... I don’t see why you can’t have a raid system that offers the good aspects while not having (or having less of) the bad aspects.

Because I don’t believe that would be enough. If ArenaNet made raids that were even slightly different from raids in classic MMOs, I think people would simply say they are not real raids. And if ArenaNet added exactly those raids, I think people would complain since the profession and combat system aren’t exactly like those in other classic MMOs. And if ArenaNet added that, people would still find something to complain, until they left the game after realizing that, no matter what, GW2 will never be a copy of whatever MMO was their first one (or main one). That, after turning GW2 into just one more generic classic MMO clone doomed to fail within a few months.

When people say, "Why no raids?", it would be better if they listed exactly what they want. Content for large groups of players? More challenging content? Content that require a specific party composition? Content limited to guilds? Content that is the exclusive source of a new kind of item? Content that gives you a random chance of getting some major item?

I’ve listed in several threads (including this one) what I (and my guild) wants from raids in GW2.

We love the game. Combat is challenging and content is challenging. We simply have no instanced large group content for a guild like us to do in this game. Because of that, GW2 becomes a "once in a while" game, logging in only to see new content then going back to games like Rift, WoW and SWTOR to do large instaned raid content together as a guild.

Do we need the trinity? Nah. Combat like it is would work and is challenging. Do we need raids to work like they do in other games? No. Wouldn’t mind it, but don’t need it. They can be instanced dynamic events, or fractals or story mode dungeons, etc.

I’ve explained many times how Anet could do this while making it fun for raiders, and not hurt the play style of the other areas of the game. But for some reason, people just hear "raid" and go "no no no!" without any kind of discussion as to how to make it work. It’s this fanatical fanboyism that makes it hard to include new players in other games, and it creeping here.

If we’re not playing, we’re not paying.

Again and again, people keep telling others what else they can do instead of instanced, large group content. While I appreciate that greatly, and I’ve tried all suggestions previously.

X is not a replacement for Y. Raiding brings a lot of elements to a group (guild) that simply isn’t available in GW2 at the moment.

GW2 is an amazing game that has something for nearly every type of player.

- Leveling is more entertaining than most games.
- Crafting is Productive and fun (discovery system)
- PVP is based on skill
- World PVP is challenging and massive.
- 5 player dungeons aren’t restrictive and challenging

The only player that doesn’t really have a solid foothold in this game is the Raider. Dynamic Events aren’t a good replacement. Sorry that shoe just doesn’t fit for most raiding players.

We don’t necessarily want raiding like in WoW. I would be fine with making the content not manditory for progression or making any items exclusive. I’m fine with Content driving progression, and not gear.

We want something for organized PVE groups to do in an instanced dungeon. A reason for guilds to work together in PVE and not fractured into smaller groups.

The combat design of the game can lend towards a Raid very well if done right, and we know Anet would do their very best to do it in a new way that is fun an new.

I don’t get why people fight so hard against attracting more players to the game if it’s done in a way that doesn’t harm your play style. They can make it fit the current game with little to no effort outside of developing the content.

For the people who say no to raids just because of the way they were done in other games; Anet doesn’t have to do it like other games.

Raiding can work like 5 man content. Nothing gained in 5 man content is any better than items gained outside of it. Content driven raids with horizontal progression.

The mechanics of a raid in GW2 would also work much like getting 5 players together. You still need to focus on the soft-trinity that GW2 supports, but for the most part, every player would be able to participate if they have a toon of the right level.

ArenaNet is fully able to develop raids that fit their game without it impacting the communtiy who wants nothing to do with them.

Include raids for MMO players who want them, make it none exclusive and if you dont want to raid, don’t. Simple as that. Everyone is happy.

Look, an MMO is an ever evolving game. Especially GW2. It’s designed to always be changing in some form or another. Just because Anet may not have liked the idea at launch, doesn’t mean they cant add it later if they find a way to do it that fits their design philosophy.

Adding these elements to the game can be beneficial to the community and the game as a whole if done correctly. Being hateful and calling out Anet as liars and deceitful when they’ve been nothing but direct and forthcoming with us about issues and concerns as any devs can be is just silly.

So please stop with the petty comments. If you don’t have something worth adding to the conversation, please move on and let those of us who want to see positive change discuss our ideas.

I think Traditional raiding could work. Bosses in dungeons work fine with the mechanics for the most part. Number of players wouldn’t change that much.

The game design could easily support this type of content. While I know that Anet doesn’t have that now and their thoughts are that it’s not necessary, the point of these types of threads is to try to appeal to the Devs to reconsider it if it can be done without hurting the overall game for non-raiders. And I think it could be done easily.

The idea that "end game starts at level 1" is fine and dandy for some, but it’s obvious that the idea fails to keep most endgame players from other MMOs. If GW2 is to be the most successful it can be, it needs to continue to attract new players to the game. It’s done a very good job in other elements, but ignoring this one area is a mistake in the long run. One that I hope that Anet recognizes.

So far they’ve been good at seeing their deficiencies and making changes to the game to accommodate them.

The reason why they didn’t want raids in game originally was because they didn’t want a gear treadmill. Easy fix, make raids content driven instead of gear driven like the rest of the game. You don’t get anything better for raiding than you do for crafting.

Raids are grindy. They have been in other games. But does that mean it has to be in ours? Not at all. And even if they are, fractals are more of a grind than Raids are in most games.

Fractals could be an excellent design for raids as well. A group of 10 (or 20) players progressing through continuously harder content to see how far they can progress their group? Sounds like a perfect design for a raid.

I still believe that major story elements shouldn’t be exclusive to raids. Fighting Jormag in the north? Massive world event. Fighting one of his major allies? Could be a dungeon that could be set to 5/10/20 players depending on the groups.

Lots of ways to do this type of content while keeping it available to non raid groups as well, without the grind and focused on content. All the things that ArenaNet wants for the rest of the game. Lots of fun (most importantly) for those of us who enjoy that type of content from other games and want it in GW2.

Sure, as long as the items are also available by some means outside of raiding as well. Maybe not as easy to get as they are in the raid, but by some means (not by being BoE and sold by raiders).

I want no one to feel like they have to raid to get specific items in game. Even if they’re skins.

Zeldain, I’m OK with not having anything being exclusive. Maybe greater progress towards a reward for harder content. Like getting more tokens towards a dungeon set than an easier 5 man version of that dungeon.

There’s lots of ways of doing this without alienating other players.

Dying and having a 20 minute run to get back to the action has been a pretty major barrier.

While I think it’s great that you’re having a blast and haven’t had to grind at all. However, not everyone enjoys every aspect of the game.

Like me, I enjoy dungeon content. But it seems like dungeon content is overly grindy for the sake of getting some tokens or ascended gear. This is something that AN had expressed they didn’t want to do but somehow did anyhow.

I also want to craft a legendary some day. This is also very grindy. Rightfully so, but there’s a great deal of grind throughout the game. Many of the aspects of the game that many players enjoy in MMOs.

They didn’t want to add raids because they were a grindy treadmill. But Fractals are a grindy treadmill.

Sigh. I love ArenaNet, but sometimes their logic sometimes escapes me.

Anyhow, you’ve said your piece on it. Why don’t we allow the conversation to move on and see if others can come up with solutions and ideas. Unless you have something new to add?

Sylv,

By your logic, including any new content that includes new types of gameplay (the MOBA for example from Hallow’s Eve) makes this a different game.

Your logic simply doesn’t hold water. You just don’t want it, despite anyone trying to resolve your issues with it.

And there’s nothing wrong with asking for new features. Ones that help support the game further by bringing in new players and hopefully not affecting the gameplay of existing playing who aren’t interested in that playstyle.

If it doesn’t affect your gameplay or your ability to get the same items outside of raiding, what does it matter to you?

At this point, it almost seems like you’re trolling. I don’t think you are, but the idea that you don’t like something and are unwilling to find ways to include it without affecting you in any way seems illogical unless by design.

If they would just explore the idea and try different ways to include this type of content for the types of players who seek this in order to make this their primary game, I would be happy.

I trust that ArenaNet of all developers would be able to find a way to include this and attract those players while not impeding the playstyle of other players at all.

You’d think that making the game more inclusive would be something that everyone wants. More players = more success for ArenaNet.

Saying "We want everyone to play our game! But not you people. You can keep playing WoW instead" seem counterintuative.

We’re looking for solutions, but you (Sylv) only seem to want to keep those players from enjoying the same game you enjoy. Adding this additional content in a way that it doesn’t affect you in any way seems like it’s possible, but you’re still against it.

It’s that kind of single-minded opposition without room for compromise that makes people want to play elsewhere.

There’s plenty of room for everyone. Why not allow it?

Yes, I get that ArenaNet disagrees with me. That’s the whole point of this line of topics. To try to convince them that there’s ways to do this without completely ignoring that type of gameplay.

Rather than say "no no no!" how about find solutions that doesn’t tread on your gameplay but allow us the types of content many of us crave?

Solutions are always better than exclusions.

Sylv,

My guild is fairly organized. We raid 3 nights a week and have a blast together. Sure, sometimes there’s some things that delay us, but it happens. Each guild handles situations like that differently.

Just because in some cases it’s logistically difficult to get people together, in others, not so much. Just depends on the people you’re with.

Just because in your experience you’ve had a harder time with it than others shouldn’t keep AN from building that type of content for those who can.

Namu,

I don’t think my reasoning hurts my argument all that much. While what you say does play a part in it, many of us just enjoy the group content (easy or hard) with my fellow guildies without others helping out. It’s hard to organize strategy in cases where you have 30 other players assisting.

WvW isn’t fun for a lot of my guild. Mostly because of a PVE background that we’re from. I personally enjoy it, and find it exciting. I’m part of another guild that does PVP a lot.

But if the argument that convinces AN that this content is desired by enough people that they put it in is that guilds want large group content that is more challenging, then so be it. I’d be happy with any instanced large group content that we can do.

We don’t need "progressive" raiding. All I’m asking for is dungeons along the same lines as the ones we have now that allow 10-20 players to run them. Rewards don’t need to be anything special.

World content is fine, but frankly the interference of other players tends to make it feel too chaotic.

As for WvW, I love that. But most of my guild does not. So it’s not a viable subsitute to raiding.

Just because there’s lot of things you can do "instead of" raiding or "kind of like" raiding, doesn’t mean that they can’t put it in later on down the road. The post I made was a plea to AN to include a group of players who feel like it’s missing something from this amazing game and without it, aren’t enjoying the post-leveling game as much as other subpar games.

It is a missed opportunity on ArenaNet’s part. Something they could easily include in the future. If done right, wouldn’t impact non-raiding players at all.

Namu, I appreciate all of those things, and I do enjoy them. But I also enjoy my guild and doing content with them. Not just 4 others, but a larger group of them. We like to challenge ourselves and work as a unit to conquer PVE content.

All of those things you mentioned are good for the individual player. But very little of it fills the gap left from leaving another game you used to raid in for a guild in PVE.

It’s the act alone of doing large group content that is missing. Not the number of available alternate activities.

There’s plenty of grinds for 5 man content. I just don’t see why exclude one specific type of player. I haven’t yet seen a good reason for the exclusion that couldn’t easily be resolved with some ArenaNet love.

And just not have them? You talk a lot about being excluded, but by not having this content, a lot of players who would play this game regularly simply move on rather than sticking around to enjoy the story and expanded content. By not having one specific type of content, that’s excluding that type of player from the game.

That seems to be counterintuative to AN’s end-goal in the game for it to be a community game that all types of MMO players can enjoy.

If there’s nothing gained from the raids that you cant get outside of it, what’s your problem with it Sylv?

I’m ok with 10 man, but make larger groups available for those who want to do them. Nothing extra for doing it, just more inclusive.

With guilds and groups being cross-server, and the fact you can join more than one, I dont see any trouble getting 20 players together for a story-mode fairly easy.

I personally play Rift and SWTOR (the community in WoW has gotten so terrible). I’ll continue to play those for raiding until something comes long in GW2 that fits that bill. I’d love to just give up on those games entirely, but just cant justify it without some serious endgame inclusions in GW2.

I’m perfectly ok with making everything in the "raid" available outside of the raid as well. Offering them from doing related content (5 man side stories related to the raid storyline gives tokens to buy that dungeon set).

As for content being exclusive, it’d still be far harder to craft a legendary than it would be to get 10-20 players together a few times a week and get a dungeon set. There’d likely be lots of pugs going on like there are now for 5 man content.

It just seems that ArenaNet really built the game for everyone BUT the raider. Literally, everything else is in the game and designed better than other MMOS, but raids. Just seems short sighted.

I hope with future content that ArenaNet gets past their dislike of raiding in other games to give us their version of it in this one.

Just seems without it, the game is incomplete. Which makes me sad.

Honestly, I think with the scale of the Dynamic Events like the dragons that they could easily do 20 man content in an instance without much trouble. They’d just make the mechanics less forgiving and design for a set number of players, rather than scaling based on how many people are involved in the DE.

(Reposted from my locked thread)

Let me begin by saying I love this game. Really, really love it. It’s almost everything I could ask for in an MMO and would love to keep playing it, and likely will from time to time.

I know this will likely get lots of GW and GW2 purists angry and yelling at me about how I’m missing the point or that my opinion is wrong, etc etc. So, you can be assured that those posts that do not offer any kind of intelligent discussion will be promptly ignored.

This game has nearly everything. What it does not have is real end-game content for guilds. It has 5 man content and open world content, but it has no raids. And while I appreciate the reasons that AN chose not to include raids, but I think the logic is flawed. They don’t want an end-game grind. No endless treadmill of grinding for gear. However, we already have this. There’s a gear-grind in getting ascended gear in fractals. There’s a gear grind in getting tokens for dungeon sets, etc.

Why couldn’t there be 10, 20 or 25 man dungeons with the same philosophy as the above? Gear doesn’t have to be better, so there’s no other reason other than to get tokens for nice looking gear.

Most guilds I have ever been with prefer the content over the gear. Gear is a way to get to better content in other games. GW2 is unique that it doesn’t have to be that way. All raids would be relevant and content challenging. There could even be a Story Mode and Explorable modes allowing most everyone access to the dungeons, like 5 man content.

ArenaNet seems to be willing to build their game for all types of players but the Raider. While we may not be popular with a lot of the die-hard Guild Wars 2 fans who want to keep the WoW elitists out, but I think with the current setup of dungeons being extended to larger group types, I think that the GW2 fans could see some pretty incredible content.

As it stands right now, there’s nothing aside from a WvW and open world zerging on Orr for guilds to organize to do together, above 5 players. And that’s very sad.
All of this is reasons why many of my friends from other MMOs stopped playing after 80. There’s only so many explorable dungeons with a few friends to do, only so many times you can level characters or do PVP (if you’re not a hard core PVPer) before the post-leveling experience gets stale.

I hope that AN would consider expanding the game to include larger group content in the future. Without the treadmill they see in other end game content, but all the wonderful content I know AN is able to put out.

Let me begin by saying I love this game. Really, really love it. It’s almost everything I could ask for in an MMO and would love to keep playing it, and likely will from time to time.

I know this will likely get lots of GW and GW2 purists angry and yelling at me about how I’m missing the point or that my opinion is wrong, etc etc. So, you can be assured that those posts that do not offer any kind of intelligent discussion will be promptly ignored.

This game has nearly everything. What it does not have is real end-game content for guilds. It has 5 man content and open world content, but it has no raids. And while I appreciate the reasons that AN chose not to include raids, but I think the logic is flawed. They don’t want an end-game grind. No endless treadmill of grinding for gear. However, we already have this. There’s a gear-grind in getting ascended gear in fractals. There’s a gear grind in getting tokens for dungeon sets, etc.

Why couldn’t there be 10, 20 or 25 man dungeons with the same philosophy as the above? Gear doesn’t have to be better, so there’s no other reason other than to get tokens for nice looking gear.

Most guilds I have ever been with prefer the content over the gear. Gear is a way to get to better content in other games. GW2 is unique that it doesn’t have to be that way. All raids would be relevant and content challenging. There could even be a Story Mode and Explorable modes allowing most everyone access to the dungeons, like 5 man content.

ArenaNet seems to be willing to build their game for all types of players but the Raider. While we may not be popular with a lot of the die-hard Guild Wars 2 fans who want to keep the WoW elitists out, but I think with the current setup of dungeons being extended to larger group types, I think that the GW2 fans could see some pretty incredible content.

As it stands right now, there’s nothing aside from a WvW and open world zerging on Orr for guilds to organize to do together, above 5 players. And that’s very sad.

All of this is reasons why many of my friends from other MMOs stopped playing after 80. There’s only so many explorable dungeons with a few friends to do, only so many times you can level characters or do PVP (if you’re not a hard core PVPer) before the post-leveling experience gets stale.

I hope that AN would consider expanding the game to include larger group content in the future. Without the treadmill they see in other end game content, but all the wonderful content I know AN is able to put out.