Guild Wars 2

Yes, that’s the problem. Despite so many other games (pretty much all other games) that have catered to the vertical progression crowd, they do not want to see the point of view of the horizontal progression crowd.

Unfortunately, since vertical progression is the norm, some people don’t even know any better. And hence there will be more people for it than there are people who are open to or embrace horizontal progression. And at the end of the day, this is a commercial enterprise, so money talks.

I was looking around to see the points of view of some of the bloggers on this matter, and came across this:
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/guild-wars-video/guildcast-guild-wars-show/fear-the-gear-grind/
Essentially at 7:00 the host mentions that he was talking to Anet developers at a game conference at the launch of GW2, and the devs were saying that all of these big MMO companies have done extensive data on player behavior and “the numbers show that a progression system keeps players playing longer… more people just want that progression…”. So it looks like even back then Anet was convinced their manifesto wasn’t going to work.

On some level, it does make sense, there are a lot (majority?) of people with addictive personalities because of how the brain works.

From the company beancounter’s point of view, you cannot have a game that is made with the huge amount of money and effort thrown at it, AND have it only cater to a subset of players.

Personally I think this is false, because
a) it’s better to chase after a niche, core, LOYAL set of customers who will support you over a long period of time because they like your unique features, rather than try and be a me-too in an ever increasing pool of games. (Notice how so many of them have become free to play or are even LAUNCHING as free to play – Aion, SWTor, Lotro, Neverwinter, etc). However you will never convince an MBA beancounter of that.
and
b) I’m convinced there is a huge demand for horizontal MMOs, as evidenced by GW2’s successful launch compared to a lot of other recent MMOs. The older gamers just don’t have time to grind, and they’re wiser having been there, done that. However the METRICS will show a decreased (but more constant) load of players precisely because it’s easy to jump in and out, which sends the wrong message that the game is on the decline.

It’s sad that some people try and equate a good work ethic with grinding in a game. The irony is, these “most dedicated players” are probably ignoring REAL work and chores in real life like housework to spend more time grinding.

This is a GAME.
If you are into the competitive side (WvW) then you should think of sports where BOTH SIDES start on equal footing, with skill being the decider.
If you are into the PvE side, you should consider FUN to be the objective (exploration, new wardrobe, working together to overcome challenges, etc.) not spending obscene amounts of time grinding for more stats.

thisolderhead.5127:

Galen.9042:

Given that Oceanic players were unable to participate in the Lost Shores finale, is Arenanet planning to allow us to join in future “one-time-only” events?

Sorry – I was under the impression that were were able to participate (I am Oceanic based also) however we just needed to identify which was of greater importance to us – sleeping and working, or taking some time off to play the game.

Sounds like sleeping and working was your decision, shame it is so hard to accept the decision you made.

In the interest of fairness, the next one time event with huge rewards should be held on a Monday at 2am PST

fellyn.5083:

Columba.9730:

More dungeons. I hate dungeons. It would have nice to acknowledge the near universal disgust at the gear grind.

“Near univseral”? So you managed to ask every single player in the game how they feel about it?

Do you realize the people posting on the forums represent not even 10% of the people who are playing the game?

And you are assuming that only people who are annoyed at the grind are posting in the forums and that the people who don’t come to the forums are care bear happy.

It’s called a representative sample. It’s the same concept as polling for the elections, etc.

notebene.3190:

[snip]..

On the other hand, I’m vain. I like to look how I like to look. I use the Mists to teleport back to Lion’s Arch, and other than that I got to dye it Celestial, I don’t really like my ugly white terry cloth robes. I feel like I should be getting a big mug of coffee and curling up on the couch with my iPad to read some news, not venturing out to kill people.

[snip]..

But getting back to that other post I read, the one where the guy/gal put forth numbers explaining why it might not be a big deal? Well, it might not be a big deal. I say we let it go for 3-4 months and see what happens.

I understand your concerns. I agree my solution is not the best, but the best solution (no increase in future gear stats, and relatively easy to get max gear with many ways of getting it) was thrown out the window. I think there is a similar skin system in sPvP where you get nicer skins as you gain more glory in tournaments, so we could have that in WvW I suppose.

The other minor point also is, not sure if you realize it, but right now, all enemies see you as a shade of red, green or blue in WvW… You just have to watch the enemy players to get a taste of that. So all your PvE color customizations are pretty much removed anyway at the moment as far as how the enemies see you. So your “vanity” is only for the friendlies…

I had a huge range on the numbers (15-40%) because we just don’t know how it will pan out. But from extrapolating VERY conservatively (14 slots with +10 stats) from what we have, we can already tell it will make a difference. I happen to have min-maxed my gear, because I have had experiences in other games where to not do so is just an exercise in frustration. I can tell you that 140 points in any stat (and that’s just 1 stat) is a big deal. It’s not easy to get in current builds without sacrificing other things. And in my opinion even 1% difference is 1% too much and is unnecessary.

Does it really feel good if you are fighting someone and for every 100 damage you do, he/she does 110? Just because they have had a lot more time to do PvE? Does that feel right?

All of these people talk about “skill” but read their words and what they are really saying is “I want to be able to dominate ‘noobs’ with superior stats just because I play/pay more than them, so I can feed my self esteem”. They don’t have skill. Because if they did, they wouldn’t care about a level playing field, they would welcome it because it would really show off their skills.

Masterpyro.4310:

The stats on the ascended item are equal to +/- 5 points per stat an exotic item with a gem on it. The Ascended item can only fit an infusion item, which is only agony related and a very tiny normal stat buff. If you are against this person, you are not vastly over powered, if you have enough skill you can beat them still with the same rotation you would have beaten them with other armor. And what are you doing in the game if not progressing to a better armor set thats available? If you were done with the game before, full exotic and legendary, now you have a reason to login again.

Point is, the game in its current state is winnable. MMOs are not supposed to be winnable, I should have something to do next month and the month after for as long as the game is still supported. After I get my legendary I am done. Now i have something else to work for.

I’m not going to argue the stats with you, there are plenty of others who have done the math. Let’s just put it this way. That is just 1 ring. The infusion slot will have gems with EXTRA stats. Someone showed that the lowest tier gem already has another +5. So let’s assume +10 for each piece. 6 accessory/ring/amulet/backpack slots, 6 armor slots, 2 weapon slots, what are we up to: +140. That already is huge, but ultra conservative, because as you know, weapon/armor pieces contain far higher stats, not to mention higher tier gems. Even if it’s just +140, that is like assigning 20 points to the power skillset, or gaining 3 orbs.

If you like to handicap yourself to show your “skill” then just go into WvW with rares instead of exotic. Don’t force other people to play with a handicap. I totally do not agree with your opinion that the more time you spend on PvE, the more of an advantage you should get in PvP. There are plenty of other games that do that, this was meant to be a different game.

Malefactor.2971:

I can’t really see why they didn’t do this from the beginning. Sure, there are some elements of PvE in WvW, but the main point of it is still Player vs Player.

On the other hand, even if they do this I seriously doubt it would stop the complaining.

There are always complainers, but can you really say with a straight face that this single stat increase problem has not caused complaints on a whole larger magnitude?

Masterpyro.4310:

In the case of ascended gear however, this argument is even less valid as the gear ONLY pertains to the fractals dungeon. Agony doesn’t do anything outside of fractals. Ascended Gear stats are therefore equal to Exotics with a gem on them.

I’m afraid you haven’t understood what has happened here, Masterpyro. Ascended gear stats are 15%-40% higher than Exotic, the gear itself has higher stats and the gems come with stats too. THAT is why everyone is complaining!! There used to be no difference in stats between Exotic and Legendaries, now they are introducing Ascended and bumping Legendaries to match that.

Your other argument does not make sense. Why do you need to force people to play PvE if they only want PvP. And it’s bullkitten that you “should be able to kitten on people if you spent more time getting better than them”. If you are better skill wise, then you don’t need an equipment crutch to show that. Your analogy with work is precisely wrong. This is not a job. It’s a game. The better analogy is football where one team has full body armor and the other team just wears jockstraps. Is that a game you want to play if you are on the second team?

You want to earn stripes? Then learn to play the game with all the various permutations of skillsets, abilities and tactics (available to everyone), rather than relying on equipment advantages gained from grinding mobs in PvE.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

As for ascended gear, to reiterate what Chris has said (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside), it’s not intended as a treadmill, but rather as a tier of rewards that can help bridge the gap between Exotics (a few hours of effort to acquire a piece) and Legendaries (hundreds of hours of effort to acquire one). They’re currently only available in the Fractals of the Mist Dungeon, but we’re going to be adding new ways to acquire them, both inside of WvW as well as elsewhere in PvE.

Emphasis mine.
There may have been a gap in time taken to acquire Legendaries, but there was no stat gap and thus no requirement to get Legendaries in the first place. Can you explain why that part was changed. I would have had no problems whatsoever if you had kept stats the same and just introduced a PvE specific Agony mechanic.

You know, let’s think about this another way. A lot of us sold on the manifesto are upset at the new tier of gear, but there are others who want to make the effort for better gear.

The only area this really affects is WvW. A lot of people who like the new tier of gear readily admit they don’t even play WvW, which is why they can’t see the other point of view.

With PvE, if you don’t care about Fractals, you won’t need Agony counters anyway. And the stats increase other people get won’t really bother you.

For WvW it is a big deal, considering nobody* likes to compete on unequal grounds.

So the solution is simple. Make WvW have the same system of gear as sPvP: you get given free sets of max stats gear, runes, sigils etc. (whatever they may be at that moment). The gear disappears when you come out of WvW just like in sPvP. You can even add glory or titles or that kind of “progression” (that does not involve stats) similar to sPvP if the fun of large scale strategic warfare is not enough. It also means whatever class balances are made for sPvP will be the same for WvW.

That way, both parties can play the way they want. PvE can have all kinds of stat progression and optional gated content, WvW and sPvP get balanced combat that’s easy to jump into from day 1 with no grind.

Problem solved.

*Note: when I said “nobody”, that’s not strictly true, there is a small subset of people who want their so-called “hard work” of grinding dungeons, mats and gold to translate into a right to feel superior and dominate other people with a stat advantage. Then they say “oh but the new gear is not even that much more powerful”.

Well, if it’s not much more powerful then handing out the same tier of gear to everyone should not be a problem either. And if you say WvW is just a zergfest then this change won’t make any difference to you. And if you want uneven PvP then just go play any other MMO out there, since this game was not sold on that premise in the first place.

Celesica.5790:

Edit: I love one time events btw because I think they’re awesome and make this game unique. The only problem I have is the kind of reward they give out in one-time events. I think they shouldn’t give these shinies in one-time events where not everyone will have the equal chance to get it (esp. the chance of getting a precursor).

Exactly. If rewards are going to be so significant, the event that grants it should last a weekend or 24 hours at the very least, to give people from all time zones a chance.

In fact, the most equitable thing would be to grant EVERY account the shell accessory and 20-slot bag, as a celebration of defeating the karka, plus a skin for those who actually turned up and participated as a sort of “I was at the event” t-shirt. That way people who could not play at all during the event (work, vacation whatever) would only have lost out on that “t-shirt”, which is fair enough and not game breaking.

Tiresias.6473:

The same people who are complaining about the new “tier” of gear are the same people who were complaining that there was nothing to do three weeks ago.

Is that so? Where was the 10000+ thread post demanding gear with extra stats a few weeks ago? And besides, “things to do” is not the same as a new tier of gear. The halloween event had plenty of things to do, and nobody complained with a 10000+ thread post (which was then closed).

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Wow… can you really not see the difference here?

Fractals – artificially introduced grinding mechanic with “levels” that preclude any CHARACTER (not even account-based) that hasn’t done it X many times from joining. Forced repetition where you only start getting better drops at 10+ times. Fake mechanics like agony and higher level mobs with increased abilities to make it more “challenging” as you grind away the umpteenth time. FORCED to grind because that’s the place to get the new tier of higher stat gear and drops needed to make the gear. Need thousands of fractal currency for even one piece of gear. In a nightmare feedback loop, required to have better gear in other to grind further.

Existing dungeons – Any one person in the party who has done story mode can allow the whole party to do explore mode. Everyone gets dungeon currency that will get you something nice in 1 to 3 runs. Gear is on par with something you can buy with money OR karma, or craft, or find in open world. So running dungeons is not necessary if you don’t want to.

It is quite clear one of these designs fosters the elitist behavior and the other doesn’t.

ASB.4295:

There is no middle ground, just as you can’t say someone’s “a little bit dead”, or “a little bit pregnant”. There is no “a bits treadmilly” with infusions. It is one. There is no middle ground.

Technically you are right.

But the fact is, stats creep is only a real problem for competitive gaming, i.e. WvW. That is what most people are annoyed about. We don’t want to keep grinding just to compete on an equal footing. It is just not fun or fair competing when it’s not on equal grounds – can you imagine a football game where 1 team has full armor and the other has to just wear jocks? Or a tennis match where one person can have a top of the line graphite racket and the other guy only gets a wooden one?

It’s not so much a problem for PvE in my opinion, as it’s not competitive, it’s cooperative. Doesn’t matter if not everyone is fully geared, as long as the job still gets done. Plus as pointed out by others, it’s optional. Don’t want to bother with the agony crap? Don’t do agony dungeons.

A lot of people have been brainwashed into thinking the WoW way is the only way, when it’s clearly not. Legendaries were identical statwise, with only a cool skin. Yet tons of people were willing to jump through the many hoops to get it. I wasn’t at all interested, but it was fine, it didn’t affect WvW at all. See how that works? People who want to do it, can do it. Others who don’t want to, don’t need to because it doesn’t affect the competition. And the fact that people were willing do the grind or pay money just to get cool skins shows that bling is all that’s needed for motivation. No need for stats creep.

There are TONS of other MMOs with endless grinds – WoW, Aion, Lineage you name it. This MMO was meant to be different. THIS is why a lot of people bought this game. And this is why a lot of people are now upset.

Wow it keeps getting better… I just found out that because I couldn’t log in 7 hours ago for the final event, I missed out on a free, one-time uber accessory which will cost 1000 shells or about 20 gold (based on current trading post prices) otherwise.

So now, you not only have to be a “dedicated player” running FotM 24×7, you need to log in at specific times too? Seriously… what the hell happened.

Caroigne.6812:

Bring up metrics all you want; metrics aren’t magic. They don’t have any metrics on why players quit, only how many, when, and some amount of what they did in game before quitting.

Metrics are an easy poll ( see here for my suggestion ) away… but I’m now coming around to the fact that the original Anet team have been bound and gagged, and the NCSoft/Nexon golem overlords are running the show now.

Usually I think a lot of conspiracy theories are a stretch, but I’m beginning to wonder… I did think “Blingg” was a strange name for the NPC, and I thought the FotM acronym was a coincidence, never thought about the “Under New Management” puzzle…

What I really found strange is the fact that the new dungeon flies SO far in the opposite direction of what GW2 was supposed to be about. The increased stats on Ascended gear is one, but look at how it’s structured: you have to replay the same dungeon over and over again, there is a “difficulty” level that is EXCLUSIVE rather than INCLUSIVE (in other words, all party members have to be at that level or higher, instead of how normal dungeons work where if only 1 member has done story mode, everyone else can join in the explore mode), you have loot generation which only increases after grinding at least 10 times, and you have everyone bumped up to 80 to try it, but only for the weekend… like giving people a fore(dis)taste of what’s to come.
And obviously the stony silence in the face of the biggest most vocal post of customer dissatisfaction ever on this forum, when they are answering everything else.

I’m really curious now… If there is an Anet dev in the know who’s reading this, please try and tell us what is happening behind the scenes. I know you won’t want to lose your job, so hide your IP and post anonymously on a third party forum. Although, to be honest, if the trend continues, you might want to sharpen up your resume anyway…

Greep.6394:

Games made by democratic action are notoriously the worst possible trash imaginable.

…

They know not many will quit, maybe a couple ten thousand, but most will silently accept it. That’s what they think anyways. And they’ll be right until it starts to sink in for people.

I have also been a developer, and I know you can’t make good software by committee. It takes a visionary who will drive core principles. That is the problem here, we HAD the vision, we BOUGHT the vision, and now it’s being destroyed. The difference with this poll is that it’s essentially a poll on whether to retain that vision. One per customer, actual data on the ground, no ambiguities, no finger-in-the-air estimates. It directly drives the bottom line which, at the end of the day (sadly), is the only thing that really counts in anything nowadays.

The thing that has to be disturbing to them now is the number of customers asking for REFUNDS. To their credit, Anet are actually granting it, but that has GOT to hurt, and probably was not taken into account in their financial projections of the current gamble to woo the WoW crowd.

The other thing is, once you have damaged customer relations like this, even if you undo the changes now, people will always wonder if you won’t just do the same thing again after the refund deadline has passed. A year from now, I bet Anet will fervently wish they had never opened this Pandora’s Box.

Pamakogi.9276:

Coming from a business prespective I bet you they didn’t see ppl asking for a “refund” as part of their money making scheme, cuz face it the average consumer is too lazy to ask for a refund. Instead its easier to stop playing and since there is no mthly sub they already got your money…

If you really wanna hurt anet and get your voices heard hit em where it counts

Quoted for truth. I have not demanded a refund, but I will give them a bit of time to set this right before considering it. The sad thing is, even if they do, will people be cynical that they won’t reintroduce vertical progression after the deadline for refunds has passed?… This was really really a bad move, Anet. I think a year from now, you will really wish you had not done such a major about-face without consulting your customers with a fair and simple poll something like what I have suggested:https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Easy-solution-to-the-Ascended-Gear-problem

What do we want? A Poll! When do we want it? Now! >_>

Come on Anet, let’s find out for certain what your customers really want before it’s too late.

Ok I’m having a hard time coming to terms with how this new Ascended Gear fiasco is being introduced in total contradiction to all previously stated goals. Anet have had a good history with GW1, so I can only imagine this is pressure coming from the NCSoft overlords who don’t understand what GW2 is about.

It’s quite obvious that there is a huge response from the community, as the 200 page post will attest. And if there is one thing that beancounters do understand, it is customer satisfaction.

So let’s have a referendum.

You implement a straightforward poll that comes up once for everyone who logs in in the next week or 2.

It has a simple question:

Do you want future armor, weapons and accessories to have a stats progression
OR
Do you want Exotic-equivalent equipment to be the maximum stats possible for any character, with all future equipment tied to that stat cap (but with possibly different skins and graphics effects)?

It will have 3 answers:
A) I want stats progression with more and more powerful equipment in the future.
B) I want Exotics and their future equivalents to be the best equipment in game, stats-wise.
C) I have no opinion on this, do what you think is best.
D) I need more information on this before I vote. (link to more info, and the poll will pop up again next time they log in)

Every account will have 1 vote. You can tally the results in a week or 2, and see what the player base wants.
If the majority want stats progression, you can silence the critics, and allow them to either accept this or move on to another game.
If the majority don’t want stats progression, you can show that to NCSoft and reverse the changes.

Simple, fair, democratic. You already have the code for surveys from beta, so implementation should be fairly easy.

If people agree with this, bump this so that Anet will see it.

Let me quote what design director Chris Whiteside said:

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.

You know what the worst part of this is? They are treating us like idiots. His very first sentence “Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill” is contradicted immediately by the rest of the paragraph.

“…without a massive jump in reward” any jump in reward involving stats means it’s a gear treadmill. That’s the very definition of it. In a competitive game, almost no one likes to fight with one hand tied behind their back. So any stat increase becomes a must-have. Shiny things like skins, coloring etc. are optional. Stats are not.

“…time to acquire them” Again, that means treadmill. We were sold the premise that we acquire top of the line gear once (as far as stats go) and that was it. This is totally the opposite of that.

“…will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months” They are already starting 10 weeks after release. Maybe they meant to say they will be adding new tier of gear LESS than every 3 months?

Anet are not stupid, they know this is totally at odds with their manifesto. From the lack of response even after overwhelming negative feedback, I surmise that this decision was forced on them from NCSoft.

The questions are: do they realize how angry they have made a huge portion of their playerbase? Do they realize how quickly this can snowball into a PR nightmare and put off both current and future customers? And will they be able to salvage all these customer relationships even if they were to reverse the gear treadmill decision?

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode…

Joey.3928:

I do not have full exotics on my ranger in WvW and I do JUST FINE. I can 1v1 and 2v1 very easily and win.

I have level 65 rare accessories equipped for goodness sake. Everyone is completely blowing this out of proportion.

You know, I’ve seen this argument from a few people now.

Ok, I know you think you are hot stuff. Maybe you are. But let’s say ONE day, you fight someone who IS on your level. He has gear that is 5% better, he’s got 5% more HP. He kills you, and has 4% HP left. Are you going to go “Haha, you got me, good job.” Or are you going to fume that you would have been victorious if only you had the same level of equipment?

Bottom line is, a competitive game should not be influenced by who has spent more time farming in PvE. Especially a game which has STATED THAT in its manifesto.

193 pages and counting… and most people HATE the new stat increases.
In the very unlikely event that Anet are reading this, add me to the HELL NO camp.

I never intended to get Legendaries and didn’t care two hoots about them because they were just an appearance perk, stats were the same as my exotics. All I cared about was that I was not disadvantaged in WvW. Now you are changing one of the very core features of this MMO not 3 months in.

I don’t even understand why stats need to increase at all… Legendaries were only an appearance upgrade but some people were already willing to jump through all those formidable hoops. So let them do that if that’s what they find fun. Why force everyone else who’s already sick of this from other MMOs to do the same? Why can’t we have OUR kind of fun, the kind of fun that was TOUTED from the beginning?

I recommended this game to many old MMO friends who had stopped playing MMOs because of the endless grind. I now have egg on my face, cause this game is turning out just like any other.