Guild Wars 2

Edit: Between time past since creating this topic I’ve continued pondering over down-state and my perceived problems with the mechanic.

There was a time when I loved down-state! But admittedly I was naive.

I used to take pride in my expertise managing the play installed by the mechanic, and maximizing the simple aptitude fighting while downed felt like an achievement!
But sadly that hour was short-lived before it became grossly stagnant and routine. It only went down hill from there.

I felt like I had maximized my proficiency while downed, even perfecting timing on the ever annoying, lagging Wolf ability: Terrifying Howl to increase chances of survival! (I also exploited Nature’s Renewal during build experimentation when times permit) But obviously I couldn’t always recover despite playing at or near the skill-cap.

(Oh and FYI, I played more than just Ranger with my time spent in the game.)

1. And that constitutes my first problem with down-state – that as a result, skill is not a determining factor of combat!

And while the justification that this is a team game may ease some minds, it remains a very real and valid concern to many if balance and adjoining fun are to be of preceded value to PvP.

In the interest of publicizing my opinions throughout the community I’ve neglected adding suggestions to fill the void left behind from my argument.
Furthermore I disregard the suggestions in my former post as they were not well thought out and I no longer adhere to them.

I’ve condensed the original version to a spoiler listed below for the sake of interest. Unfortunately due to the post character cap I opted to edit out the old suggestions:

magic fly.2041:

Down state in pvp, as has been described multiple times, hinders skillful play and makes it next to impossible to win while outnumbered.
It is a major problem in pvp.

I don’t really have anything to say that hasn’t been said before, and am mostly just posting to add my voice to the number of people against downstate in pvp.

[+1]

I suspect the underlying reason why you feel cheated is because of the power of GW2 reviving, where the relative ease/cost/risk is too advantageous.

Justin ODell.9517:

I really like this idea! Just sent an email to the team about it.

So… what’d they say?

As Neare and others have already pointed out: Elite players don’t necessarily have the right mindset to objectively balance the game.

They could however provide helpful insight about the meta and their class/es, but (for example) not attune for the affects balancing has on new players.

KrisHQ.4719:

Without downed state in this game, the meta would be revolving around burst even more than it already does.

Erebos.6741:

Gandarel.5091:

Downed state is ESSENTIAL FOR PVP. Since we have no healers, if you get spiked, you can get downed in a blink of an eye. With downed state, your teammates can pick you up, thus surviving the spike.

Gandarel, are you asserting that it is too difficult (e.g. not well telegraphed) or beyond player capability to counter spike damage either or for sustained intervals?

Edit (to save you a reply):

If yes, than the core of the problem lies in the lack of player capability and/or failure in design to cater for human debility.

If no, than you got outplayed, which normally inflicts a penalty (death) to advantage the player towards winning the match, promote skillful play, and give meaning to/reward combat!

[rant]

Instead GW2 implemented down-state, which degrades the capability of the afflicted, which means the fight is biased; not appointing to skill! Or a corrupt loss due to unfair vantage set up by the downed player; also not pertaining to skill!

This demotes skillful play which in-turn degrades combat and befouls the fairness of competition.

[/rant]

oZii.2864:

Erebos.6741:

If anyone’s interested in reading some more 1v1 balance discussion — here’s a former topic of mine discussing just that:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/1v1-Balance/first

Thanks!

This was a good read thanks for the link.

You’re welcome, and I’m glad you liked it.

To those trying to define balance: it doesn’t change meaning when regarding RPG’s or whatever else, it simply means equal proportion.

So 1v1 balance for example aims to give each player comparative capability to afford them fair chance of winning, while group/team balance targets fairness between teams.

Another well known but rarely used trick (mostly due to the difficulty) is near-instantly self reviving from the downed state by activating Nature’s Renewal from the Elite skill Spirit of Nature just before going down.

Pip.2094:

I find downed state in Pvp rather disturbing to be honest…for in the most of cases, it just forces me into lie there and wait for an unavoidable banner. Makes me feel rather pathetic, that’s all personal vision I have, anyway. I would prefer to just die as soon as I fall.
And, I truly hate when a teamate or a friend ends up downed and killed as well, just for trying to rez me, for then I feel guilty. I prefer to die alone than bring anyone with ne x)

Thank you for sharing

While I wouldn’t go so far as to describe it as “disturbing”, I personally don’t like being at the mercy of other players, friendly or foe.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m all for working as a team, but I don’t want to be utterly dependent on them either.

Oh and before I forget (again), thank you very much Zanthrax for the support

Ameno.6813:

Without down state everybody would have the mentality of “kitten everything, I’m going to build as glassy as possible to burst down whoever I’m fighting as quick as possible”.

Ameno.6813:

Jackalrat.5493:

You don’t see glass cannons constantly putting everyone in downed state now

That’s because not everyone is running full glass nowadays, taking away downed state basically incentivizes more reckless play-style because when the opponent runs out of health they’re dead

You assume people would optimize burst because players become easier to kill. You conclude this effective because most people will build burst/glass cannon specs.

This is circular logic/illogical; the basis for your premise exists in the conclusion.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

strength in numbers.
the party with less numbers is not suppose to win the battle and come out alive. especially in a 1 vs 2 situation.

You’re naive if you believe numbers should be the principal factor for determining combat.

Skill promotes quality over quantity, meaning numbers have variable value, so you can’t reliably judge the outcome based on numbers alone.

Shar.3402:

Grackleflint.4956:

Because you don’t balance the game around the 1%, that’s why.

You actually balance a game based on classes used at their full potential by people with opposible thumbs.
Otherwise, warrior’s bull’s charge+frenzy+100b would have been removed from the game like 10 months ago with all the people whining. (just as an example.)

I think you mean “should” here, as ArenaNets actions haven’t afforded them the philosophy to balance for fun (this affects players of all skill competencies), netting them this trust.
/Burn!

This is also important for the spectators, as even though they may not have the wealth of ability the competitors do, they help provide the money which helps promote the competition.

On an aside-note, this is another reason why it’s important to maximize depth vs complexity: so inexperienced people can still follow and appreciate the extended ability of the professionals

I got your back Grackleflint

Oh and FYI, I don’t think that’s a good example, but I’m still using it to purpose my point :P

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Erebos.6741:

How would it affect your enjoyment of GW2 PvP if they quadrupled the base HP of all professions?

if overall damage of all professions is quadrupled as well then i dun see any problem.

How do I get you to see to reason?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

anyway, downed stated, reviving from downed, reviving from defeated, stomping, etc are all important features of this game.

I’m happy to argue this case. Please present an argument or counter to my premise.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

those people who keep on asking for their removal, should stop.
just play the game the way it is meant to be played.

Have you no sympathy?
I am hugely competitive and play to have fun. Down-state prevents this for me; it’s not my intention

Tater.3506:

The downed State is one of many reasons I quit playing this game.
ArenaNet can “Love” The downed state all they want, Its not going to make me Hate it any less, Downed state is Unbalanced and Game breaking to me and Unless it is either changed in a way that makes the game more balanced or removed I will not be coming back, There are plenty of other games I can enjoy instead of wasting time “just rolling with it” and Im sure there are plenty of other people just like me, so If ArenaNet doesn’t mind losing that chunk of its players then by all means, keep on loving it all you want.
Just my take on it.

I feel exactly the same way as Tater.

Gandarel.5091:

Downed state is ESSENTIAL FOR PVP. Since we have no healers, if you get spiked, you can get downed in a blink of an eye. With downed state, your teammates can pick you up, thus surviving the spike.

Gandarel, are you asserting that it is too difficult (e.g. not well telegraphed) or beyond player capability to counter spike damage either or for sustained intervals?

Edit (to save you a reply):

If yes, than the core of the problem lies in the lack of player capability and/or failure in design to cater for human debility.

If no, than you got outplayed, which normally inflicts a penalty (death) to advantage the player towards winning the match, promote skillful play, and give meaning to/reward combat!

[rant]

Instead GW2 implemented down-state, which degrades the capability of the afflicted, which means the fight is biased; not appointing to skill! Or a corrupt loss due to unfair vantage set up by the downed player; also not pertaining to skill!

This demotes skillful play which in-turn degrades combat and befouls the fairness of competition.

[/rant]