Guild Wars 2

Maybe the new masteries will allow players to mitigate some effects of mistlock instabilities.

One example could be, when players are affected by agony every few seconds in fractal 40 and 50, their healing isn’t halved.

#wishthishappens. #Wtbhealerlove.

fadeaway.2807:

Good posts Faythe. Yes the dps will suffer in theory, but I have found that by facetanking bosses to keep them stationary, keeping everyone at 100%hp for scholars, encouraging melee rather than safer ranged options, reducing the movement they need to avoid taking damage etc – the overall dps does not suffer by as much as you would think in the average pug.

My favorite example of this is Mai Trin. Consider 5 ranged pugs trying to ranged kite her, missing shadowstep dodges, and generally having a bad day. Now consider an experienced healer guardian telling them to stack on him and melee her down while he keeps everyone at 100% without breaking a sweat. Which is more likely to down her faster?

Considering all of the pit stops and trash mobs speedrunners would have skipped, portals, jumping routes etc not used… I think 8 mins is perfectly reasonable for a pug considering you lowered the skill requirement to make it a quick run by a decent amount.

You only have to look at the forum/reddit post counts vs the speedrun contest view numbers vs the anet financial statements to conclude that although the forums are a vocal crew, the number of people hugely worried about everyone being perfectly performing zerkers 100% of the time and blitzing content is quite simply tiny.

Dear Fadeaway,

Thank you for your kind comments. Yeah I agree with you. Haha, you used to be able to face tank mai trin with healing tome and out heal all the Dmg to you and your party. It’s harder to do so now with fractaled patch stepping in.

Yeah as you point out, I think the 8 mins would have been shortened by abt 2+mins if we had started filming straight after picking path instead of before, and if I hadn’t taken my time to run around and change skills because I was SMSing irl. As OP said, we didn’t know we were being filmed. I don’t think our time would have been world record speed or even the speed of 5 speedzerkers. But a 6 + min casual run with 1 heal 4 zerk without stealthing thru mobs does seem reasonable, even by 5 zerk standards.

Yours faithfully,

Ohlette

BluePheonix.8972:

I don’t get online as often as I use to, but if you guys ever need a 5th and I’m online, a PM would be pretty cool c:

Hi BluePhoenix.8972,

No problem, we’ll hit you up if we get the chance.

Take care in the meantime~

Yours Faithfully,
Ohlette

Dear Zackie,

I am sorry to hear of your troubles. Things have changed since a year ago, and coming back in cold may get a little rough, but I do hope you will keep your faith in the game.

There are plenty of nice people around if you look out for them. The LF forums has many casual guilds or groups who are looking for people, and are open to newer players or non meta builds. Some of the more seasoned veterans in the game can appear harsher at first, but if one exercises some forbearance, these veterans are good fun to be with, and you can learn a great deal from their experience and skills.

People often have preferences about gear, experience, level, etc. They are not necessarily elitists or roods. They just prefer running dungeons in a certain way. If you have your own preferred way, make your own dungeoning team, or find one with a similar philosophy

Occasionally, you meet people who don’t just ask for certain things (like being zerk) but instead, demand that everyone (who isnt an idiot) should be one. It is admittedly not nice being around such people. But try not to take it too harshly. Opinions are like butts – everyone has one. Cheer up, don’t think too much about such stuff.

Wishing you a pleasant gw2 experience ahead,

Faythe

Dear Skady and Brown,

Thank you for your informative responses on communal defences and healing tomes.

Have a good one in game~

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Dear Skady,

Thank you for your informative videos. I think your 1 heal 4 zerk philosophy is fantastic, especially for pug, casuals, or uncoordinated parties. I think it represents a healthy balance between speed, smoothness, and consistency of runs. Not everyone wants to be a world record player – some of us just want to play. The extreme focus on increasing speed and dps has, at times, led to zealotry and fanaticism in both the meta and anti-meta communities. I think your philosophy fills a much needed space for balance between the two worlds. I hope you continue to make many more videos, and that we can exchange notes in game

Just two questions Skady:

1. Is communal defences a good idea especially for mossman? I notice you took battle presence. Especially for mossman, he hits so hard. The additional regen on your fellow teammates arguably won’t help that much. With communal defences, every twenty seconds, using non aegis blocks like focus 5 or mace 3 grants ur team mates a free aegis which blocks a harsh attack. Additionally going further into that tree increases your toughness which is needed to hold aggro.

2. What about the healing tome? If you have about 2k healing power, you might be able to sustain urself for 20-30 seconds while your blocks are on cool downs. Cast a SOA then go into tome. You can heal urself, ur shield, and ur team. Would this be a viable alternative?

Also, perhaps rotate between kralka chocs and the new riceballs? Riceballs give lower self healing but 10% more outgoing heals. So when tanking moss or arch diviner where all the aggro is on u, perhaps take choc. But in other instances, perhaps riceballs is better?

Thanks for considering I have watched some but not all the videos yet. If I mentioned something you have already covered, i apologise in advance – please do bear with me

Yours faithfully,

Ohlette

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Anandira.8756:

I can’t believe people came on this thread just to you give you grief about running a heal guardian. I consider myself to be a semi-hc player and I wouldn’t run anything other than a full zerk party, but I would never come on your recruitement post just to tell you that what you are doing it’s bad, especially when you specified you were a casual group. To each their own!

Kudos to you for staying nice and polite, and explaining your choices. Have a free bump

It’s because he’s asking for full zerks to join his guild for dungeons but then he kittening runs clerics. Which basically tells me “our guild sucks and all our players run kitten builds, please someone good join and carry us”.

Dear Guanglai Kangyi.4318,

Thanks for the free bump. I think your comment is not only unsubstantiated, but may potentially mislead people about healers. Even though healers use clerics/nomad/magi and consequently have higher defences, it doesn’t mean they don’t require skill to play. This is because:

• The less damage you take, the more healing skills you have available for use on your party. In fact, an effective healer should not use his heals on himself 95% or more of the time. A healer has to be as good or better than a zerker in surviving to be truly effective.
• The increased defences in armour are offset by a noticeable amount by taking traits which benefit allies rather than oneself.
• Skill is needed in healing – healing isn’t just about spamming one or two heal skills. It requires foresight on situations which might prove dangerous to your team, initiative to take steps to prevent the danger from materialising, and wisdom to know what steps are the most appropriate for which situation. Just as skill is needed in DPSing, skill is equally needed in supporting/healing.
• Healers don’t just heal. We DPS too (albeit a smaller amount) and enable the team to DPS. A good healer stacks might, adds vul, picks up weapons (when appropriate). Balancing between your role in protecting your party and your role in DPSing/ensuring optimal party DPS requires skill.

Also if you are going to mock/troll, please don’t drag people like Anandira.8756 in. I think he (and others) said some sincere and kind words. Those words deserve more respect than just being used as a mere springboard for you to raise unsubstantiated insinuations.

Yours Sincerely,
Ohlette

P.S. We are not a guild, just a crystallised dungeoning group. Kindly do not misrepresent our post.

rfdarko.4639:

It sounds like we simply have different experiences and different priorities then, so I won’t argue that your point of view is not valid. If your goal is to make it to then end of an encounter without a single down in a pug, I can’t say that I can absolutely ensure that on my staff elementalist. I think to say the “speed is reduced a little” is generous, and I disagree that a good player will be “struggling to survive amidst the group’s tactical mistakes,” – a skilled player will adapt to what defense is and isn’t present in a given situation. Also the line “gw2 is harder than it appears” ? It sounds like you are talking to someone who doesn’t play the game – most days I solo or low man both fotm and dungeons, so I understand how hard (or not, as the case may be) encounters are. I do believe there are some genuinely challenging encounters in the game, but CM specifically is under-tuned for fully geared players with even a moderate amount of experience.

to iris – I understand the filmed run wasn’t a pug, but she was advising this group set up for “casual/pug” runs, which is what I was responding to.

Edit, to be a bit clearer: “1 heal 4 zerk is more viable in pug/casual scenarios than 5 zerk parties.” Is not the point I was arguing against, all though I would lean more towards “deserves consideration” rather then flat out “more viable”. My point was: From my experience at least, when going in totally blind to a random pug, bringing dps and active party wide defense makes things go smoother then depending on your party-mates to do enough damage. It seems like you’ve had the opposite experience, and I can’t really argue with that. You post for “zerker” pugs, so that may be part of it.

Dear Darko,

Thank you for your response.

1. I think the term ‘reduced a little’ should be corrected to ‘somewhat reduced’. There are times when the DPS is reduced only by a small portion, and times when it is fairly larger. It all depends on the skill of the pugs which are drafted. It is both accurate and inaccurate to describe the term as ‘reduced a little’.

2. The goal of healing is to allow for the most effective way to get through a PUG dungeon, taking into account the circumstances of casuals/pugs. Just in case, I clarify that it is not just trying to get through a dungeon without downs, and therefore taking a very long time in the process.

3. I disagree that a skilled player ‘will’ adapt to difficult circumstances. For lack of a better word, I think ‘may’ is a more appropriate term. Nevertheless, I feel that while skilled zerkers are not incapable of carrying parties, given that the bulk of players are casual, and that as a zerker your options in ensuring party survival are limited, it is arguably more effective to clear content with by sacrificing 1 person’s dps and supporting 4 casuals with heals, rather than going 5 zerk and end up with limited options (only active defences) or soloing the content (because your team is dead, down, struggling to survive). Alot more things can go wrong with 5 zerks given the narrow margin for error. It is also noteworthy that as a non-zerk, your dps is lower, but certainly not negligible.

4. Since you generally don’t dispute that 1heal4zerks is more viable for pugs, I think I have nothing much more to add to your point. If you sincerely feel the proposition is worthy of consideration, that is adequate for the purposes of logical argument. As an aside, I only started posting for zerker pugs about of several months ago. Prior to that, I just dungeoned with whatever pugs I got, and that worked out fine. I certainly don’t doubt the quality of your experience, but neither do I second-guess mine. There is probably some differentiating factor that explains the polarity of our experiences, but I think for the purposes of this debate, it isn’t necessary to go into that.

Good luck on your solos~

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

EcoRI.9273:

I personally think in terms of increasing speed for a dungeon run, Berserker build vs Non Berserker build is not a huge priority that some of you guys are claiming it to be. There are other things far more important than that to “PERSONAL” dps that you guys are advocating that can magically turn that 8minute run to 4minutes. Instead of saying the same thing over and over “if your guardian was running meta build, it would have been faster.” The statement has so little weight. I would agrue that if the guardian was berserker meta build, it would be only slightly faster. Strategy is far more important than what a person’s build is. When talking about increasing speed. I would personally rank the following for its ability to shave off time:

1: Figure out how to avoid fighting trash mobs.
2: Figure out how to get to point A to point B as fast as possible.
3: Figure out which events can be skipped.
4: Figure out how to give your overall party more DPS.
5: Personal DPS

instead of giving advice on how to save a few pennies, give advice on how to save a few dollars.

Solid argument.

To add to Ecori’s point, I think that the more complex the skip becomes, the more distant the tactics get from PUG reality. For PUGs parties, I think its important, when assessing what skips/tactics to use, to balance between ease of use and the time saved. To continue the money metaphor: no point pushing high risk tactics for several extra seconds when the party is not ready for it: would be penny wise pound foolish.

rfdarko.4639:

Goodness, it seems like you read “placebo” and nothing else of my post. The main argument that you make I actually mention just above that – Bridgette and retal. Turmain is essentially the same thing: you brute force rather then ib5, so healing allows melee classes to stay in melee range and dps the whole time. I was actually trying to play devils advocate. I’m sorry that word distracted so much from my point, which was really just that whether you have a centaur rune mesmer running around portaling or a healing guardian, being down one dps character isn’t going to make much of a difference where kill times are concerned. It’s going to be seconds or a few more seconds.

I don’t have any problem with the set up, although I wouldn’t advise trying to use it in pugs as you suggest. Because while 4zerk1heal is not that much different from 5zerks, 4 grab-bag-of random-traits-and-specs + 1 heal isn’t always going to work out. You can’t depend on pugs to deal dps, and after two years of pugging I can safely say it’s much better to bring your own dps and bring active defense without gimping yourself to buff or heal your party mates. Pugs are much more likely to lack good damage then they are to lack personal survivability. “They trust me to protect them, and I trust them to fully dps.” – trust is not something you bring into pugs, so I’d advise keeping the healer guard for times when you know everyone in the party and know the full group composition.

Dear rfDarko.4639,

Thank you for your reply. You post was one of the more substantive ones., and worthy of reply. The replies to your arguments can actually all be found in my earlier post. I certainly hope you won’t jump to conclusions that I only considered your ‘placebo argument’ just because ‘placebo’ was the only word I borrowed from your post. In summarising the gist of the entire posts so far, I hope I can seek your understanding that how I phrase it may not fully correspond to how you phased things – but it does not meant your words were not considered.

For the sake of completion, I set out your main arguments and reply accordingly:

1. Encounters are so under-tuned that everything explodes in seconds

I disagree. I have replied to this in my post. GW2 is harder than it appears because it rewards good teamwork (with easy runs), but serious penalises ones.

2. Using the same strategies as in the video but making the guard zerker probably wouldn’t make the path that much faster

I agree. It would probably make the run slower (if the same tactics were used) since zerk guardians cannot heal. I mentioned earlier in my post that full support requires active defences, passive defences, and heals. Zerk guards are only strong in the first element.

3. Healing had more of a placebo effect than anything else – you would have done nearly the same with or without it + 1heal 4zerk is unlikely to work well with PUGS

Again, in my post. Good healing is elusive. The point is not whether I would have done the same, but whether any reasonable pug in my position would have done the same kitten zerk or 1 supp 4 zerk. My humble view is that 5 zerk in any pug is far more likely to fail due to the low margin for error. My experience from pugging since GW2’s inception is that where I play heals, I can better control the survivability and fate of my group compared to when I am full zerk. While I may not be able to trust every pug to DPS effectively, I can at least trust them to DPS. Keeping them alive is not predicated on them trusting me. The absence of trust doesn’t mean the run fails. It just means its overall speed is reduced a little by people dodging or defending more than they should. This is a far more acceptable outcome than being a zerker in a pug group and you have far less options of ensuring group survival because you yourself are struggling to survive amidst the group’s tactical mistakes, bad team members, etc. I also point out that I have had good DPSers join when I post for zerker pugs. My group today were all PUGs I met along the way. In short, all things being equal, 1 heal 4 zerk is more viable in pug/casual scenarios than 5 zerk parties.

4. 1heal4zerk may not result in much kill time difference compared to 5 zerk parties

I agree on this point, and I have addressed this in my post earlier. One of my key arguments is that 1heal4zerk brings many benefits in addition to allowing you to kill around or at the same speed as full zerk parties. Therefore, it is worthy of sincere consideration.

Thank you.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Saint.5647:

Kind of torn on how quickly everyone jumped down his/her/idk… throat about this. Let’s not get so caught up on the usual malcontents trolling in from General Discussion to stir up kitten.

I don’t think these guys came in here swinging their peters saying that this is how dungeons were meant to be run. Seems like they just did it for fun. All things considered, it’s probably better than a lot of the pug runs out there.

Ohlette, it’s viable. It’s not necessary but it’s viable and for what it’s worth ya’ll didn’t do a bad job of it. Seems like you guys also understand it’s not the optimal way either so I wouldn’t take anything too personally. I think folks around here are a little too used to posts like this being made in a very accusatory and angry fashion.

Frankly, I don’t think dedicated class roles have any place in the game’s current state. Can’t say what the future holds but as it stands, the skill is often found in how well a player can adapt and play multiple roles at once. Currently, this can 100% be done in offensive setups. Since support is largely untied to any supportive stats, there is very little benefit to be gained from spec. into it.

Dear Saint.5647,

Thank you for your encouraging reply.

I think the post below yours by Fracture.9754 is aptly representative of someone “[coming in and] swinging [his] peter” on how runs should be done (albeit that it may just have been in jest) XD. But I take such things in good humour. Thank you for your concern

We feel that ‘1 heal 4 zerk’ is actually the better way to go for PUGS/casual dungeoning groups (which form the bulk of the dungeoning community). In the PUG/casual context, the reduction of gaming pressure, the simplicity of tactics, the consistency of heals, and the higher margin for error in ‘1 heal 4 zerk parties’ will make it easier to achieve reasonably quicker runs, compared to when ‘5 zerk parties’ are used.

You are no doubt correct that everything can be done full as a full zerker. But the decisions as to what is viable should not only consider dungeoning in theory, but also in practice. 5 Zerk parties which require high coordination and competency are in practice more difficult to pull off successfully than 1 heal 4 zerker parties. Consequently, there is certainly space for healers in this game (albeit ANet needs to include much more), especially in the larger sized casual dungeoning community.

Support is tied to stats. Full support cannot just be done by active defences. For example, you can’t fully support your party single-handedly against Turmaine’s poison fields with just active defences. You need heals and healing power. Of course, every class has its own types of defences. However, if 5 zerk party members had to rely on themselves or others to dodge, cleanse and heal, there is far more room for error and the battle is far more abrupt, compared to when the entire battle is smoothly conducted by the entire party just fully dpsing with 1 healer throwing heals in support.

For your kind consideration.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Jerus.4350:

It’s only heals that you lack in zerker, every other form of defense is reliant on utility skills and trait selection.

Personally I like to view things in regards to their opportunity costs.

For example, using mace on guard has 2 notable negatives. First being the light field, it can potentially block more powerful fields. The second is it’s small personal dps loss. It has pros though, most notably for the group is the healing, it’ll help maintain scholar bonuses through passive damage which can actually lead to a dps gain, while it also leads to more general sustainability through the passive defense of the heal in general. Overall the pros/cons make it quite a powerful weapon.

Going full on healing and sacrificing base stats for healing power will lower your damage by an amount that makes it harder to offset that loss. The opportunity cost is high. The most notable benefit is the increase in ease of play and allowing potential mistakes to be made.

The viability is surely there, especially when you consider ease of play to be a factor (which meta ignores) it’s simply the idea of optimization that it conflicts with (which is what meta focuses on).

In the end though I hope you guys keep doing what your doing and continue to work on strategies to really fully explore the opportunity cost of your decisions, it’d be enlightening to see it more fully fleshed out.

Dear Jerus.4350,

Thank you for your educated reply.

Your principal concern is that having a full healer may have too high an opportunity cost. I respectfully offer the following responses:

• With regard to your concerns over fire fields, I use hammers more often than maces so that I can blast with hammer 2 (which has a low CD). Also, as I do not spec for longer protection symbols, I can provide for reasonable amounts of protection while not overriding fire fields excessively. Furthermore, I myself carry my own fire fields (hallowed ground and purging flames) and set them down before I do other things. The result is I rarely override fire fields. Where I do use a mace, I either fire field first, or get my party to do so.

• I agree fully with your point on scholar bonuses. I add further that team DPS is enhanced by healing/support because dps rotations are not interrupted. My team trusts me, and over time, has learned to stand in the cross fire and not dodge/carry out defensive actions unless their lives are in critical danger. DPS is not just about stats but also technique and flow. The overall result of role specialisation that team dps benefits greatly from all 3 elements. This is something that is often overlooked – that dps must be looked at in practice, not just in theory. When you are in the heat of battle, a small change can lead to a large result. Even though numbers are a useful guide, reality is more than just that.

• A full healer does less, but certainly not negligible DPS. CM p2 requires more support because the bosses hit hard and fast. But in many instances, the impending damage while still being high, comes more gradually. In such cases, I am minded to pick up frost bows and use my own attacks to make sure I contribute. In my experience, despite being a healer, I can still do a lower, but certainly not negligible amount of DPS.

• I agree fully with your point on the ease of play and the leeway for mistakes. Full zerks are viable when people know what to do, when they are supposed to do it. But in PUG/casual scenarios which form the bulk of the GW2 dungeoning experience, this is not always (and indeed not often) the case. There are less obstacles to achieving quick runs in the PUG context with ‘1 heal 4 zerk’ than with ‘5 zerk’ parties. It is not just what is effective in numbers, but also what is effective in practice.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

GrimmR.3541:

Iris Ng.9845:

oxtred.7658:

I personally find it satisfying to keep people alive without healing power by just using proper active defense, but for each their own. If you have fun using healing power, do so, as long as your group agrees.

You can’t use active defense against retaliation, or constant poison/burning uptime)

But you can LoS Bridgette or pull/knock her out of it.

Dear GrimmR.3541,

Looking at the context, I think what Iris meant was that you can’t continue to stand in the retail or poison circles and hope to survive without heals. You are definitely right in saying that moving out of the circles remains viable. However, that would stop dps for several seconds and hamper rotations. But in fairness, having a dedicated healer is itself a dps loss. In the end, both ways of doing things can be equally viable.

I think the nub of Iris’s point is that you can’t claim to be both – I.e. you can’t claim to be able to fully support your team from all or most manners of adversity, but also claim to be full zerk at the same time. No doubt, full zerkers have strong active defences, but they lack team based passive defences and heals. And at the end of the day, full and effective support is more than just active defences.

Certainly you can chain freeze Brigette as Oxtred.7658 mentions one post above. It’s a kill or be killed way of doing things. It certainly works for very coordinated parties. But considering the PUG/casual context of dungeoning that we are discussing here, I’m not sure how viable it will be there. The tactic is hard to pull off, and may not be very viable when bosses surround themselves in poison fields constantly which don’t go away easily (like turmaine from CM p2). In such a case, if you intend to continue to dps in the poison fields, you will probably need more than just active defences.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

J Eberle.9312:

Faythe.3096:

Even though my friends are perfectly competent (and without any intention of sounding arrogant)

Surely perfect competence would mean your usefulness as a ‘healer’ is void.

Dear J Eberle.9312,

Thank you for your reply. I think perfectly competent zerkers have a choice between heals and no heals. I think my friends prefer to focus their "competence"100% on dps, and leave the bit on survival to me. I don’t see their skills as rendering me unnecessary. Quite to the contrary, I think that they believe in their skills to dps, and mine in keeping them up. Both support and dps affirm each other mutually and synergistically.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Continued from previous post

Healers have gotten a bad rep in GW2, mostly because many healers think that support is limited to just spamming 1 or 2 healing skills. That being said, healers are also getting a hard time in GW2. They may be criticised as incompetent where runs are shaky, but overlooked as unnecessary where runs are smooth. While zerk is still the meta, and full zerk parties continue to be viable, healing can be equally rewarding. The smoothness of the runs, the lack of gaming pressure, and the feeling of connection with your team is deeply satisfying. I hope that both Anet and the meta/non-meta community will give healers a sincere chance to develop into something stronger – they certainly have the potential to do so.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Dear Friends,

Thank you Barneby for feeling confident enough about us (despite just joining our team a week ago) to go through the laborious process of (stealthily) recording and uploading a video about us. We would not have had so much fun without you.

I think I would be a poor friend to Barneby if I failed to mention that I was the healer in question in the video, not him. So if there are any opinions and questions (or hate/ill-will/trolling/aggro :X), I will gladly accept them (without ill-will) on his behalf, for they are more appropriately directed to me.

From a look at the thread thus far, I roughly distill the following arguments and respectfully offer the following replies:

1. Having one non-zerker has dragged the run longer than it should be

I think some context is needed first. The basic premise of our party make-up is: (1) casual, (2) no TS communication, (3) pug tactics – no advanced mesmer portalling/skips, (4) 1 full healer 4 full zerkers. The point is that any decent zerker can join us, play in a less serious way (I know I was in that vid XD), and have a smooth and quick run based on PUG standards. If we are to be evaluated, I would kindly suggest that it be done on those grounds.

With that context in mind, it is trite that we are not going (nor do we intend) to hit world records. Full zerk casual runs with competent players take around the same time. At risk of sounding presumptuous, I respectfully think that it sufficient that we can hit the same timing, but do so with the much larger margin for error, and without the stress of impending death/wipes.

As an aside, I think Barneby was just being playful when he said the video “was to show off” – the run time was certainly not record speed, but it certainly represents heartening encouragement that casual, non-meta groups can do just as well as meta zerk groups based on PUG standards.

2. The party could have done just as well with a full zerk guardian – healing has a placebo effect at best

First, I wish to point out that my friends are perfectly competent players. They are doing their job well, and if the party were to wipe, it would be due to my incompetence, not theirs.

With that in mind, I respectfully think that the run might not have gone as well if I were playing a full zerker guard (which I have tried – I carry full zerk gear with me all the time). I elaborate:

• Some bosses hit particularly hard like Turmaine and Brigette – especially on zerkers. If I were not a healer, the party would have to move out of Brigette’s retail circle or be obliterated in 1.5-2 seconds. For Turmaine, they would have to move out of his poison fields or die. We did not even get to phase 2 of Turmaine where he mist forms; but if we had, he downs zerkers in 1.5 to 2 seconds without proper heals/condition clears. A person struggling to survive does less dps, and a dead one does none. Based on PUG standards, there are probably few or no group that can dps the boss so fast that he can’t even get off a single devastating attack, such that no support is needed.

• In relation to the point that healing is merely a placebo, I humbly point out that healing is in gw2 is very elusive, in that when it is being done (and being done reasonably correctly), it is not readily noticeable. If people find it hard to notice any adverse change to a party’s survivability, then the healer is probably doing his job right. That being said, a lot of preparations go into ensuring that things go so smoothly that it seems like the healer is not needed at all. This requires the proper and strategic use of active defences (blocks, reflects, prot), passive defences (additional toughness and regen), and heals (burst and sustained). Even though my friends are perfectly competent (and without any intention of sounding arrogant), I think my friends can casually stand in the cross-fire precisely because the necessary support has been taken to enable them to do so. They trust me to protect them, and I trust them to fully dps. The culmination of our synergised roles makes the run look smooth. But it would not be possible without either side.

• I humbly submit that runs in GW2 can be harder than they look. Anet appears to reward good teamwork (with easy runs), but heavily penalises bad ones. In our formative years of play, those of us who learned the hard way will remember (with much distress) the 45 min AC p3s and CM p2s. There are plenty of traps in dungeons which can wipe full zerk parties. Failure to put up a reflect, block, or stability at the right time can be devastating. Examples of all 3 include luppi (Arah), icebrood wolves (Hotw), and bomb bandits (CM) respectively. Heals can help to increase the margin of error for mistakes, giving leeway to members to survive and to learn better from their dungeoning experience.

Continued in next post

Edits: fixed some typos

dlonie.6547:

Kinda pathetic…the hardcore dungeon community tells people to start their own groups and find likeminded players so they don’t bring down full zerk parties on the LFG.

And then mock/troll the hell out of them when they try to do so.

Good on you OP — I’m really impressed with how maturely you’ve been handling the trolling. Best of luck in getting your group together so you can play dungeons how you want without pushing your opinions on others.

Dear dlonie.6547,

Thank you for your comforting encouragement I think you have aptly alluded to the fact that there is a difference between requesting for zerkers, and demanding that people be zerkers. The former is choice, while the latter is just coercion. We appreciate your well-wishes, and we are on our way to creating a stable group of regulars.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Wardjess.8174:

Hello, I really like running dungeons and I’m from Eu on NA server. If you could send me an invite, I would really appreciate that! Name is Wardjess.8174

Dear Wardjess.8174,

Thank you for your kind interest No problem! I will add you in game and send you an invite when we are back from work/school and running dungeons~ Hope to see you soon!

Yours Faithfully,
Ohlette

Iris Ng.9845:

Umm guys,

I’ve been running with Oli for a while. Even though their team comp sounds odd for your ears, Oli is a very good guardian, and she really means it as “pressure-free full dps”. The group has consistently between 18-23k DPS even at the cost of a guardian dps. Their time is equal, if not better than some of the daily dungeon tours on both sides of the shore.

I know some of you come here just to find a funny topic to trash talk about. But if you ever find a genuine interest in the OP, I hope that comes with respect.

Dear Iris,

Thank you for your kind words I am sincerely touched and honoured them. We haven’t been able to dungeon with you recently since we switched time zone, due to us having to go to school or work. I do see on in the early mornings sometimes. Hopefully, we will be able to enjoy your company and l33t deeps in dungeons again soon

Yours Faithfully,

Oli

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Please add me. I can’t wait to buff protect and heal my party in order to allows the squishy zerkers to focus purely and only on DPS.

Dear Quickfoot Katana.8642,

Thank you for giving our philosophy a sincere chance I humbly apologise, but we are currently looking for zerk-geared players at the moment Do give me a call in game if you have a zerk geared character, and you are still interested~

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

I’m looking for a group like this, too. Do you mind if I join you guys?

Dear TheMaskedParadigm.3629,

Thank you kindly for your interest We would love to have you with us. Am currently headed to work (unfortunately), hope to see you in game soon!

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Domzz.1260:

Hey guys. I’ve played countless hours as a core support midpoint guardian in conquest pvp, and I feel extremely comfortable filling the support / healing role. I got to rank 80 in pvp and achieved the champion paragon title on almost purely AH guardian running cleric gear.

Of course pve is structured differently, but honestly I’m confident I am one of the best picks out there to fill this role.

If not, I can always run full zerk. All things aside, I’m looking into getting serious about dungeons, eventually doing speed runs through all paths each day.

Please add me and whisper me in game. I’m Disco Grizzly.

Hi Domzz.1260,

Thank you for your interest I believe Brohlette has messaged you. We hope to see you in game~

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

bump bump bump.

BarnabeJonez.6023:

+1 for these guys. Runs are quick and smooth, and the people are friendly and skilled.

Thank you Barnabe We have enjoyed (and hope to continue to enjoy ) your great skills and company

“Draco.9480:
Casual player=/=Focused player
If not enough skill and coordination to keep alive as five berserkers then the group is a total joke because this game is already casual and doesn’t require much of defensive tactics like in WoW or WS.

If the group survive as five berserkers and kill the boss first then it’s more useful and quicker than 4 dpsers and 1 healer/support. But if you wish your composition I don’t mind I just said the facts about speed running and advised you to level above the casual level for the sake of game play, performance, time and efficiency."

Dear Draco.9480,

Thank you for your comments again. We appreciate you phrasing your reply in a way which acknowledges our own free will to run how we want – it is phrased far more nicely than the way your comments were made before.

We apologise, but we have found it difficult to understand some of your sentences. Nevertheless, we have attempted to restate your claims as best that we can, and we respectfully offer the following replies:

1. Casual players are not focused players.

We are not sure what you mean by ‘focused’. If you mean focused as in ‘hardcore’, then the statement ‘casual players =/= hardcore players’ is pretty self-explanatory XD. If what you meant was ‘casual players are not good players’, then I think that statement is not only untrue, but risks offending a large bulk of the GW2 community. There are plenty of casual players who don’t go for speed run records, but still remain good and effective players.

2. GW2 is so easy it that five zerkers can coordinate easily to beat it. If they can’t, the party is a “total joke”.

GW2 is an accessible game. Everyone has the same gear, stats, and skills, no matter how much money they have. Therefore any person, and by extension, party, can be effective. This does not necessarily mean that GW2 is ‘easy’.

GW2 rewards good teamwork, but seriously penalises bad ones. A small mistake can have a devastating effect. Failure to put up a reflect in time, block a heavy attack, or stabilise a devastating CC can all lead to party wipes. Examples for all 3 include: Lupi (ARAH), Wolves (COE & HOTW), and Bomb Bandits (CM), respectively. 5 Zerk parties which struggle between survival and dps may find it difficult to balance between the two. 5 Zerk pug parties who lack TS communication or shared tactics will find surviving even harder. Simply put, GW2 is more difficult than it looks.

5 Zerk parties only work if people know what to do, when they are supposed to do it. But not everyone is on that sort of level. I find it unfair to suggest that if a 5 zerk party does not work, that everyone in that party is therefore useless. It simply means that the tactics and make-up of the party have to be reassessed to work with the skill-levels of the players involved.

3. A 5 zerk group which can survive is more effective than 1 Support 4 zerk groups.

We have addressed this point comprehensively in our earlier post to you that this is not necessarily the case. We respectfully note than you have not offered any argument in reply beyond restating your conclusion.

4. Players should rise above being casual to get effective runs.

Again, we have explained earlier than even casual players can have effective and quick runs. When is a run considered ‘effective’? I don’t think it is viable to argue that a run is only effective when it is near world record speed. That would be unrealistic. At risk of getting too technical, we think a run is effective if it is reasonably faster than an average PUG run. How much faster it must be must depend on the skill of the players in the party. Because 1 Supp 4 Zerk allows for dedicated roles, simple but effective tactics, and more room for error, it can generally allow for more effective runs.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Bump Bump Bump.

Draco.9480:

What’s the point in healing guard if a berserker guard can do the same with reflects, blocks, stability and blind. In speed runs you’ll never see a healing role becausei t’s a waste of dps. This game offers easy PvE system that doesn’t require a healing role at all. Just go 5 berserker kill it before it does you. If you can’t coordinate your dodges, blocks, reflects and skills then it’ll just lead to wipes even with healing.

By focusing on dps and let the guard to heal you is a big mistake. You should dps and know how to survive as squishy build to do it in short of time. A guard can’t save his mates from one shooting skills like in high level fractals and Arah.
This isn’t WoW to have a healer/tank. GW2 is all about berserkers at PvE. WvW and PvP are different though.

With my guild it took a fractal level 40 in like 38 Minutes from 1 to 4.
Depending on someone to heal you will never let you improve in PvE.

Dear Draco.9480,

Thank you for your comment. We would prefer to keep this thread free from the support vs zerk debate as it is more appropriately held in other parts of the forum. I have said the same thing to Sloth.8729 above.

However, at risk of sounding dismissive, we respectfully offer the following reply:

We think that 5 zerk groups have their own unique benefits, and we do not doubt their efficacy in dungeons, especially where all 5 members are skilled and experienced. However, 5 zerk groups also require great coordination and skills, and have a low margin for error. The culmination of these factors makes full zerk groups more prone to wipes, and less accessible to newer/casual players. Finally, a harmonious balance between support and dps allows for maximum focus in dpsing: effective dps is not only about gear but equally about technique and attitude. 4 zerk players which are absolutely dedicated to just damage may out-dps 5 zerks players who have to split their attention between survival and damage.

Just because Zerk guards have access to the same skills as Support guards does not mean that they support just as well. First, zerk guards have low healing power which means you cannot outheal certain difficult bosses. Second, if you are focusing on dps, you are no longer a dedicated supporter – many zerkers go on about active defences like blinds, blocks, and reflects – but those are just one type of support; there are plenty more including heals, wards, constant protection and regen, meat shielding, etc, many of which require a person to be specced and equipped as a support guardian.

No healer can ever guarantee that there are no wipes for no one is infallible. But having dedicated healing can make wipes a lot less frequent. Not everyone does speed runs. There exists a large volume of decently skilled but casual players who don’t want to engage in complex tactics, follow detailed TS instructions, or focus 100% for 2 hr speed run trains. 5 Zerk parties require that people coordinate closely since it cuts very close to death – as you aptly mention: kill or be killed. This may not be something that casual persons want to do.

Anyone who plays in a 1 Support 4 Zerk party can improve in PVE just as much as people who play in 5 Zerk parties. The improvement lies in improving the quality of personal dps, using the absolutely minimum amount of dodges to survive, and synchronising attacks for maximum team dps, just to name a few.

The ‘GW2 is not WoW’ argument has been cited plenty of times by the zerk movement, sometimes on levels bordering on zealotry and fanaticism. GW2 is certainly not WoW. It does not require everyone to adhere to the trinity of tank, heal, and dps. But it doesn’t mean we must adhere to the 5 Zerk philosophy as well. Other party make-ups have their own unique benefits and appeal. In the end, it is not just about how fast runs are being done, but also the smoothness and ease to which runs are executed. Everyone has different needs thereby allowing for different permutations for party make-ups. Imposing undue pressure on players to adhere to the 5 Zerk philosophy may not only propagate notions which are untrue, but can also prejudice the feelings and creative spirit of fellow players.

In short, we think that a healthy balance between support and zerk allows for a fun, pressure-free, and effective dungeoning experience. We do not doubt that 5 Zerk parties are still meta and are still very viable in certain circumstances, but the 1 Support 4 Zerk philosophy is also viable, especially for casual players and anyone who is willing to give the philosophy a sincere chance.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

BarnabeJonez.6023:

Are you guys NA? I wouldn’t mind some relaxed runs now and then.

Hi BarnabeJonez.6023,

Thank you for your reply. We are on NA servers yes. We play on oceanic time. Add me (Ohlette) or Brohlette (KireiYuki.2609) in game and we can talk more

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette and Brohlette

Arome.6759:

Will you have youtube videos showing us how to heal guard? I’ve never done that before..why can’t i just spam my staff 1? i thought that healed, vs empower. empower gives might but, we wanna stay alive. i mean if anything have the ele heal and guardian give fire fields+might.

You didn’t mention ranger, we could have ranger pets, blast fire fields, if i’m not mistaken raven gives blinds, if the bird swoops through the smoke field it’ll not only stealth us, but blind the enemy mobs.

(correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve seen this on arena net trailers)

Dear Arome.6759,

Thank you for your response.

I am sorry, but I don’t have any videos. Unfortunately I’m video editing illiterate, and even if I could do it, I think my computer would throw a fit while recording. XD

Spamming staff 1 does not heal your allies, only yourself (via altruistic healing and empowering might). If you are going to go 100% support, that is a large dps loss. The only way to justify such a loss is if you enable your remaining 4 teammates to largely ignore their personal survival and focus almost entirely on just dps. In order to do this, you have to provide your team with all the tools required for survival: heals, boons, blocks, reflects, wards, etc.

In addition, you also have to ensure your team is optimally buffed to dps: this means that you should carry fire fields like hallowed ground or purging flames, and blast them regularly with hammer 2. Where appropriate staff 4 (empower) can give 12 stacks of might very quickly. However, staff 4’s might lasts for 10 seconds only. It overrides the better might from fire fields which lasts abt 20+ seconds or so. After empower runs out, theres a sharp might stack drop. So I would not use empower unless I am desperate to ramp up might for a burst attack, or the mob or boss will die within the 10 seconds of the casting of the skill. Empowering might suffers from the same drawbacks: the might gain lasts about a second or two, overrides longer might, and drops like a bomb the moment you stop attacking. Finally, Some classes like guardians do more damage when the mob is burning or afflicted with conditions. Where this is within your power, you are also in charge of ensuring this happens.

Lastly, you also need to dps. A support guardian has lower but not negligible dps. Besides auto attacking and using your skills, where appropriate, pick up ice bows and use ice bow 4. U can grab lightning hammers too to dps and blast fire fields (but only if you are absolutely sure the ele doesn’t need the hammer).

I don’t play a ranger unfortunately. So I can’t speak for them. Every class has some way of providing support. But the more supporting skills a class has, the greater its potential as a supporting class. Remember that it is not just heals that is important but also blocks, might, boons, etc. Also consider that heals have many different forms. Burst heals heal quickly but run out fast. Sustained heals take longer but heal for longer periods of time. The same principle applies between blocks which eliminate damage but only for one attack, and protection boon which can last infinitely but only mitigates 33% damage. In short, the strength of a supporting class depends on (1) how well its played, (2) how many supporting skills it has, (3) how varied each class of supporting skill is. I think when choosing a support class to play, this is the most important consideration.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Shameless bump.

Dear Friends,

I am looking for a friendly and casual PVE guild that runs on oceanic time.

I have played gw2 for 3 years or so, and I play a guardian, an elementalist, and a warrior.

Thank you for your kind consideration.

Yours Faithfully,

Faythe.3096

Bumpity dumpity.

pranker.3748:

That’s a solid argument, given that it comes from 1st hand experience. Probably what sloth meant was you wouldn’t need that much healing and support with increase in DPS, since every dungeon boss drops in seconds. The team composition at the moment is not full personal DPS oriented but rather team DPS, which sees guard use blinds, aegis, condition removal (fire fields) etc.

Anyway I’m a part of speed running guild but I am curious how you do your runs so if you feel like it gimme a whisper in-game

Dear Pranker.3748,

Thank you for your kind support. The runs of your guild , ‘Transnational Syndicate’, some of which can be found on Youtube, are very impressive. We welcome you to join us on our run

However, just to gently clarify, we don’t claim to be elite speed runners who clear paths in 2 or 3 mins. While we are aware of many advanced speed clearing techniques (combining AC p2 and p3 into one path, stealthing all the way to Alpha in COE, etc), we don’t always use them because they have a high learning curve, and are not newbie friendly. We are ultimately a casual group of friends who enjoy running together. As such we restrict ourselves to using well-established, straightforward, and game legal tactics/skips.

That being said, we do aim for quick runs, and seek to achieve this solely by role specialisation, effective teamwork, and straightforward tactics/skips. To that end, we have achieved quick runs, and hope to attain even quicker runs with new players who are willing to give our philosophy a sincere chance.

Have a very pleasant New Year’s Day, and see you in game

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette & Brohlette

Sloth.8729:

Your runs would be a lot faster if your guardian wasn’t running a healing/support build. Just sayin’.

Dear Sloth.8729,

Thank you for your comment. We would prefer to keep this thread free from the support vs zerk debate as it is more appropriately held in other parts of the forum.

However, at risk of sounding dismissive, we respectfully offer the following reply:

We think that 5 zerk groups have their own unique benefits, and we do not doubt their efficacy in dungeons, especially where all 5 members are skilled and experienced. However, 5 zerk groups also require great coordination and skills, and have a low margin for error. The culmination of these factors makes full zerk groups more prone to wipes, and less accessible to newer/casual players. Finally, a harmonious balance between support and dps allows for maximum focus in dpsing: effective dps is not only about gear but equally about technique and attitude. 4 zerk players which are absolutely dedicated to just damage may out-dps 5 zerks players who have to split their attention between survival and damage.

Healers in general have gotten a bad rep in gw2 because many healers think that supporting teammates is limited solely to just spamming one or two healing skills. But a full support guardian offers far more than just heals: active defences such as blinds and blocks, might from fire fields, hammer blasts and staff empowers, protection and regeneration boons from traited hammer symbols, all while contributing a small, but not negligible amt of damage.

In short, we think that a healthy balance between support and zerk allows for a fun, pressure-free, and effective dungeoning experience. Although zerk is still the existing meta, we hope that people such as yourself will also give our balanced philosophy a chance.

In the meantime, we wish you a very happy lunar new year

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Dear Friends,

We are looking for full zerk players to run dungeons together.

1. Introduction

We are a casual and friendly group of friends who seek to dungeon daily. We follow a team composition of one full healing and support guardian, along with four full zerk players. The guardian focuses entirely on buffing, protecting, and healing the party, allowing the zerkers to focus purely on dps. We humbly believe that the specialisation of roles will allow for quick, consistent, and relaxed runs, thereby avoiding the traditional extremes of casual but slow runs; or fast but pressurising runs.

2. Benefits

• Consistently quick runs
• No TS coordination required (although we are perfectly willing to speak on TS where desirable or necessary)
• Immense satisfaction from large damage numbers
• Patient and friendly team-members
• Low learning curve and negligible gaming pressure due to consistent heals
• Simple and straightforward dungeon tactics with little explanation required
• Negligible amount of wipes and downs
• Smooth money-making
• No repping required (we are not a guild, just a crystallised dungeoning team)

3. Expectations

• Willing to cooperate to ensure maximum dps (e.g. our zerk members do not equip defensive utilities – no rez banners, dolyak signets, arcane shields, etc to ensure absolutely maximum dps)
• Able to dungeon fairly regularly during EU time (from 730-830am EST onwards): most of us are from the Asia-Pacific (Australia, Singapore, etc), and we dungeon after work/school
• Friendly and patient attitude (kindly do not yolo)
• Be based in a NA Server

4. Contact Information

If you are interested, kindly whisper or drop a mail to: ‘Faythe.3096’ (Ohlette) OR ‘KireiYuki.2609’ (Brohlette), or alternatively, you may leave a message here and we will get back to you

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette & Brohlette

UPDATE:
We have formed a group of regular players who attempt to dungeon daily from 730-830am EST onwards (830 to 930pm – GMT +8). That being said, at times, some of us are unable to make it due to various commitments (work, classes, etc). A good amount of people have applied and joined us on our runs during such times, and we do our best to invite our applicants on runs whenever there is an opportunity to do so. If you are interested in giving our runs a whirl, kindly drop ‘Ohlette’ or ‘Brohlette’ a mail or post here. We will do our best to invite you whenever possible.

If you want a rough feel of what our runs might be like, please refer to BarnabeJonez.6023’s post below entailing a (particularly) casual and relaxed run that we did some time ago. For convenience’s sake, I reproduce it here:

" Hi all, to give everyone a feel for how runs go with the group, here is a video of a casual CM P2 run we did earlier today. This was a candid run (I didn’t tell the other members I was recording), and we were not using any sort of voice communication program.)

http://youtu.be/u4oXOt0d0Kk "