Showing Posts For Freedj.8650:
The reason they get punished for losses is they aren’t playing people of their skill level. if the average MMR of the team you play is lower than your MMR you will lose more points than you can get for a win.
This is partly due to matchmaking, but it is also due to people queue dodging people at or above their ability level.
Losses when matched against a team of an equal averaged MMR are far far more punishing than a win against the same team at high ratings. What you are talking about has definitely been the intent and design in the past as far as I know, but it isn’t currently implemented well.
edited for an example (note this is not an isolated incident i am describing)
A duo queued team of 2 people in ~top 25 with 3 plat players on their team pitted against two duos in top 25 with 1 plat on their team play against one another.Either team wins they will get 5-9 rating. Either team loses they will end up with typically a -15(at least) loss. FAIRLY equivalent matchmaking, maybe weighted slightly in the 4 legendary players favor, but the point distribution will be nearly identical regardless of outcome, and the loss, one way or the other, will result in a massive (3 fold +) deficit.
the problem is the q dodging again, the system for calculating win/loss points uses your mmr againts the rival average mmr and q dodging, off ours playing etc etc makes that even if the rival team are packed with other top duo your mmr is to high compared to average mmr of rivals due to filling teams with players of much less mmr (that drags down teams average mmr), if tops dont try to exploit the system and play in high population hours they will get their matches filled whith top 250 players and their win/loss points will be more compensated
Even with closely matched MMR ratings between the teams the loss will typically end up with a 3-5 fold greater rating deduction than had the same team won. I’ve seen it dozens of times, and I attribute that to be one of the main incentives for people to engage in q dodging in the first place. I have had 20 point losses against teams where all 5 players are rated higher than myself and 9 point gains in the same scenario. And these are both with several dozen games into the season, so it definitely cannot be attributed to early season mmr adjustment either.
a little overpunishment for losing in the ones that are on top places is ok, they cant pretend maintain their ranking with a 50% w/l ratio
If they are being matched with players of their skill level it is ridiculous to ask them to win 3:1-5:1 consistently for marginal gains. It’s fine for losses to be more punishing than wins, but the insane difference between the gain/loss potential of a match causes players to embrace unhealthy habits like Q-dodging.
That is why most of those players in fact don’t have anywhere near a 50% winrate but more alone the lines of 75% plus because they avoid duoing against other players that would present a threat.
The problem with Ventari occurred when they nerfed stability intra-class wide and added too much freecast boon removal on sigils effects, which makes it very easy to strip the little stability that the classes provide. The problem with Ventari Rev will only worsen when PoF releases because the sources of boon removal will double if not triple. Stability boons will become negligent, stun breaks will be the only reliable method of escaping CC “which there aren’t enough of” and the game’s meta will become tilted towards CC and DPS. This will make Ventari Rev a powerful assist on point for the purposes of setting up team bursting and/or mitigating enemy bursting with it’s perpetual AoE CC effects. It’s ability to stop bursting before it happens is in every way equal to or greater than Auramancer healing.
But the real culprit of the problem here, is too much boon removal and the nerf to pulsing stabilities. Now there is no class that can stand in the Ventari’s face long enough to deal damage to it, let alone even keep a node contested against it to begin with. It’s also ridiculous that the AoE CC spam has instant animation which provides little to no counterplay. They really need to increase the cast time of the CC and add some tell of animation for players to be able to work with against the CC play.
I tend to agree with pretty much everything listed here. And scourge in its most recent state is pretty devastating to ventari. But that whole spec seemed kind of grossly overtuned. But time will tell.
I said it needed adjustment. And good players don’t even take the trait you referenced for stability. I don’t think in it’s current state it’s great either, but you are having a massive over reaction to a build that is pretty straightforward to play around. To draw another engi comparison, turret engi. The bane of anything below a mediocre players’ existence. It’s basically a hyper specialized version of that.
That build does nearly 0 damage, has almost no stability of its own, and is far more susceptible to condi damage than you imply. It has an extremely specific niche and roll, and it would help if you learned to play around it rather than flame on the forums.
I do think the build needs some adjustment, but so does your attitude and criticism of it.
The reason they get punished for losses is they aren’t playing people of their skill level. if the average MMR of the team you play is lower than your MMR you will lose more points than you can get for a win.
This is partly due to matchmaking, but it is also due to people queue dodging people at or above their ability level.
Losses when matched against a team of an equal averaged MMR are far far more punishing than a win against the same team at high ratings. What you are talking about has definitely been the intent and design in the past as far as I know, but it isn’t currently implemented well.
edited for an example (note this is not an isolated incident i am describing)
A duo queued team of 2 people in ~top 25 with 3 plat players on their team pitted against two duos in top 25 with 1 plat on their team play against one another.Either team wins they will get 5-9 rating. Either team loses they will end up with typically a -15(at least) loss. FAIRLY equivalent matchmaking, maybe weighted slightly in the 4 legendary players favor, but the point distribution will be nearly identical regardless of outcome, and the loss, one way or the other, will result in a massive (3 fold +) deficit.
the problem is the q dodging again, the system for calculating win/loss points uses your mmr againts the rival average mmr and q dodging, off ours playing etc etc makes that even if the rival team are packed with other top duo your mmr is to high compared to average mmr of rivals due to filling teams with players of much less mmr (that drags down teams average mmr), if tops dont try to exploit the system and play in high population hours they will get their matches filled whith top 250 players and their win/loss points will be more compensated
Even with closely matched MMR ratings between the teams the loss will typically end up with a 3-5 fold greater rating deduction than had the same team won. I’ve seen it dozens of times, and I attribute that to be one of the main incentives for people to engage in q dodging in the first place. I have had 20 point losses against teams where all 5 players are rated higher than myself and 9 point gains in the same scenario. And these are both with several dozen games into the season, so it definitely cannot be attributed to early season mmr adjustment either.
They definitely didn’t abandon the game mode. They try and add rewards and stuff to make it more appealing to people, and even added ATs recently (although that’s a bit of a bag of worms in itself).
The point i am trying to make, they are definitely putting effort in to improve the game mode, I just don’t think they have enough folks on the team who really play PvP enough to pick up on some of the more nuanced but still extremely impactful problems.When I said abandoned I meant not longer putting any developmental effort into it. Adding incentives to try to entice people into playing sPvP isn’t the same as addressing core issues such as matchmaking, balancing, or adding new content (such as new maps, game modes, etc.).
I mean kitten, it’s been 5 years and still no death match? No capture the flag? Stronghold was a flop. The strategy for each conquest map is the exact same, regardless of whatever other mechanics they added, and has lead to this garbage bunker meta. It’s just poor decision after poor decision filled with self-fulfilling prophecies.
I half agree with you at best. They’ve revamped khylo, they’ve added capricorn, they’ve added coliseum, both new maps I think are really good. But i do agree that rewards are not enough, but ATs I think were a great idea that they sort of… shot themselves in the foot over already.
but regardless, the point of this post is to try and help them address problems with matchmaking, one of the unaddressed things that you listed. I know it’s probably a difficult thing to fine tune, especially with all the irrational rage-posting after a loss by people in regards to matchmaking.
The point of this was to provide a thought out description of something that is certainly endemic in at least high level pvp to help the devs root out the problem which causes a looooot of unhealthy and unfun behavior by players for the game mode. I definitely don’t think they abandoned the game mode. I do agree that some things need work, and although i don’t have solutions for them, i do think that the root of the problem is the overwhelming cost of a loss compared to the gain from a win at high levels.
I unfortunately can’t speak much to the problem below platinum, so I will trust other players to confirm or deny similar behavior at their respective tiers, but it is doubtless a big problem with matchmaking and just the ‘fun factor’ any match can bring.
Have the amount of rank points for a loss depend on the score: close match = minimal loss, blowout = large loss of points to discourage players giving up after the first fight.
Invalidate 4v5 and return us to the lobby with a major penalty to the d/c
Do not “expand” the matchmaking tolerance until like 5+ minutes of queue time
There I fixed matchmaking for you
Except when we’re being punished for facing people far outside our skill range and having a blowout. I’m in low Plat, I played a game against a duo legend group yesterday, lost 500 – 84, and lost 18 points. What kittening sense does that make?
The whole system is kittened from matchmaking to the rating system, and ArenaNet isn’t going to do kitten about it. They abandoned sPvP long ago.
They definitely didn’t abandon the game mode. They try and add rewards and stuff to make it more appealing to people, and even added ATs recently (although that’s a bit of a bag of worms in itself).
The point i am trying to make, they are definitely putting effort in to improve the game mode, I just don’t think they have enough folks on the team who really play PvP enough to pick up on some of the more nuanced but still extremely impactful problems.
The reason they get punished for losses is they aren’t playing people of their skill level. if the average MMR of the team you play is lower than your MMR you will lose more points than you can get for a win.
This is partly due to matchmaking, but it is also due to people queue dodging people at or above their ability level.
Losses when matched against a team of an equal averaged MMR are far far more punishing than a win against the same team at high ratings. What you are talking about has definitely been the intent and design in the past as far as I know, but it isn’t currently implemented well.
edited for an example (note this is not an isolated incident i am describing)
A duo queued team of 2 people in ~top 25 with 3 plat players on their team pitted against two duos in top 25 with 1 plat on their team play against one another.
Either team wins they will get 5-9 rating. Either team loses they will end up with typically a -15(at least) loss. FAIRLY equivalent matchmaking, maybe weighted slightly in the 4 legendary players favor, but the point distribution will be nearly identical regardless of outcome, and the loss, one way or the other, will result in a massive (3 fold +) deficit.
(edited by Freedj.8650)
Because this ended up so long, probably read the Tl;dr and then if you are at all interested in the reasoning you can give the rest of it a look.
Now let me start by saying that the “new” system of rating being determined by a numerical gain/loss dependent on the outcome of the match is a definite improvement over the old system of pip gain/loss determining your rank at the end of a match. I won’t go into detail why because I think the opinion on this is fairly unanimous.
However, there is an extremely unhealthy climate in PvP, in particular in the higher ratings of Pvp that should really be discussed. For most people in the top 50 or so players, this has been an elephant in the room for several seasons, but the overly punishing nature of losses is hugely impactful on the effectiveness of matchmaking.
Highly rated players will coordinate, sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly, when they Q as to avoid getting matched against one another and risking a loss. When they can, they will do this in off hours (Hence W/L ratios of 10:1 which is an absurd ratio if you have a matchmaking system Q-ing you against players of equal skill level in a 5v5 match no less where you should have ~20% contribution for your team to win on an equal playing field).
Top level players will Q around eachother effectively creating a vaccum to pull up gold/low plat players into legend rated games and effectively greatly increase their chances to win and carry their own team to victory, especially in a duo Q setting.
Top rated players are in that position in no small part thanks to abusing this sort of strategy. It’s the metagame of pvp. Dodging those who provide you with the most competition and instead preying on those who you really should have no business playing against.
I know numerical player base is a big factor in this, and if you double or tripled the population of pvp this issue MAY solve itself apart from off hours. But the fact remains that the metagame of pvp is in fact not in skill level or builds, but in avoiding actual competition and good games in favor of boosting your rating.
And this is all due to the overly punishing nature of losses. If two duo q-ed teams of top 25 players are matched against one another, the resultant win may grant 5-9 rating. The losing team will lose anywhere from 15-25, despite no massive favor to win or lose to either team. That means the losing team may have to win up to FIVE games in a row to make up for this singular loss against a fairly equal opponent.
It is really no wonder why players play the system to the degree they do. If matched against equal players, no one would have the ability to climb. A good player vs another good player will find it extraordinarily difficult to win at a 5:1 or 6:1 rate which is what they would need to climb in rating even incrementally.
I understand the need to make losses punishing and make climbing difficult, but this is far to extreme and forces players into nasty habits of playing around with the system rather than outplaying eachother in good pvp matches.
I am not making a ridiculous request to punish these players but rather to address the flawed system that ENCOURAGES and in fact necessitates this sort of play to climb rating.
I am not offering some sort of solution to this problem, and I know that anet doesn’t play much of their competitive game mode, but please at least understand the nasty habits that the current system has developed.
Thanks so much for reading, and sorry it was so wordy.
Tl;dr
the overly punishing nature of losses is having a hugely negative effect on matchmaking and the overall quality of matches especially at high level play.
What’s the rationale for lowering the timer?
Basically, we felt 2 minutes was too long. The change went live today, so we’ll be keeping an eye on things to make sure it has the desired effect.
Cool, was just curious. thanks for the response.
What’s the rationale for lowering the timer?
Permanent pvp dishonor players get statues in this game?
I dunno if this helps you guys, Ben, but i had already tried relogging/character switching and it didn’t work, but for some reason when i did it recently the rewards did end up loading in.
Yea I checked em. For some reason it just showed up randomly a couple of minutes ago.
Played in the NA monthly AT, got 2nd place, received no rewards whatsoever. Wondering if this is a common problem and if/when it will be fixed.