Guild Wars 2

Adamantel.6427:

Simple as that, this is another proof to the very sick attitude to the consumer in general, making a dungeon that CAN be done, impossible instead, just to prevent farming for the better of the whole – this is some very typical bullshiiiiiit of the socialistic thinking, of course nobody identifies it in himself, definitely not the developers. Never.

If the dungeon was doable and first of all could be enjoyable, THUS it was done by many players, why, oh explain me why would anyone kill it and make it almost impossible unless you’re a very extremely godlike veteran in very godlike gear? Any logic behind it? Thought so.

And by the way, just to ask that seemingly obvious question: HOW are new players like myself supposed learn the dungeon if the only way to get into a squad that maybe may have a small chance of completing it, is to be an above mentioned elite veteran with astonishing experience??? Oh well… Too bad I wasn’t born a god. I’ll just fvck this game and go sit outside on the grass, I’m so tired of the idiots behind the worst decisions repeating time after time after time, destroying any good standards and possibilities of having simple fun in mmos… Too much of this shiiiiiit, I quit.

It’s obvious that they did it so that players like you could complain on the forums and provide entertainment for players with the very basic skills required to complete the simplest of dungeons.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Oh lord. Don’t mention what it is on the forums, but please report the heck out of it.
I swear to god, the culture in this game drives me up the wall sometimes.

I think I know the cheese you are referring to. Will reporting this really do anything? And yes, I agree it’s ridiculous the lengths people will go to to get the prize at the end with minimal effort. It’s like they have no sense of pride or accomplishment.

NvN.4321:

It’s a kitten first dungeon. It should be easy.

No it shouldn’t.

It shouldn’t be harder than bloody Arah.

No it’s not.

With high end geared grp we couldn’t save Hodgins after 6 th try. It’s pain in the kitten.

Maybe it’s your skill, and not the group or the dungeon.

We all had to use crowd control skills just so we could save his NPC kitten then wait recharges to wear off.

You mean you had to use crowd control to control mobs? No way. Next thing you are going to tell me is you had to use stun breaks to break stuns. Oh wait….

Troll one hits you.

Only if you don’t dodge his obvious attack.

Kholer one hits you.

Only if you don’t dodge his obvious attack.

Spider 2 hits you…

Only if you don’t dodge her obvious attack or you face tank without condition removal/blocks.

and spaws poison fileds that last for 129784487418RANT seconds.

Don’t stand in obvious AoEs

Balance it. I’m out.

Learn to play.

Yea clearly it’s the developers fault for not predicting how much Charged Lodestones would cost with respect to other lodestones at the time they were designing the recipe for Mjolnir…..

Volcanus’s Recipe calls for 450 total Lodestones, but no one complains about that recipe because 350 of them are the dirt cheap Molten Lodestone thanks to CoF runs.

After you’ve taken an economics course come back and explain again who is to blame for the Charged Lodestone prices.

Maybe in the future more recipes will come out to make other Lodestones on par with Charged in terms of demand, but honestly the supply is fine. Go to gw2spidy and look at the demand of Charged compared to the other Lodestones (except for Molten).

Vargamonth.2047:

I would remake most of the “skill point challenges” to actually teach the player some game basics like boons, stunbreakers, condition removal, defiant, …
It would also be interesting to attach some hint windows to them.

It’s sad that it would have to come to that. It’s as if people don’t read tool tips. Actually, yea if people are too lazy to learn the mechanics then they are probably too lazy to read the tool tips too.

On a more constructive note, instead of doing that for a skill point just make it a daily. They already do that for dodge and they attempted to do it for Combos before removing it. If they made “Remove X Stacks of Defiant” it would at the very least get a portion of people to realize that Defiant exists and what it does. They still need to incorporate it as a mechanic in fights as it really only acts as a defense to permastun on bosses.

Moreh.6385:

Actually, supply IS the issue in its relation to demand. The two concepts are meaningless alone.

The problem with charged lodestones is that the demand so far outweighs the supply that the prices have risen to the point that actual sales volume has slowed to a trickle. That’s why getting 100 for a legendary is so insanely slow, when other rare materials needed in higher quantities (500 Orichalcum Ingots for Sunrise) can be filled relatively painlessly.

This is a lesson for any of you going into public office in the future. When you foster consumption and punish production, prices will always rise just like Charged Lodestones, and the economy in terms of product volume exchanged will slow to a crawl.

Ok. So we have two options to solve the imbalance:

1) Raise the supply of Charged Lodestones

2) Decrease the demand of Charged Lodestones

Increasing the supply will only go so far and once everyone gets the legendary or exotic they are farming the price will plummet.

The problem is that there is a lack of alternatives. Other Lodestones simply aren’t as useful as Charged. Just compare the recipes:

Onyx:
Gift of History- Flameseeker Prophecies
Gift of Darkness- Twilight
Gift of Stealth- Predator

Destroyer:
Vial of Liquid Flame- Used for Rodgort, Volcanus and Incinerator
Destroyer Weapons

Molten:
Vial of Liquid Flame
Gift of Water
Vial of Quicksilver- Juggernaut

Charged:
Mjolnir
Infinite Light
Gift of Light- Foefire’s Essence/Power, Aether, Azureflame, Eidolon, Sunrise, Wings of Dwayna
Gift of Lightning- Bolt and Mjolnir
Gift of Weather- Meterologicus

Glacial Lodestone:
Gift of Water- Frenzy
Gift of Ice- Frostfang, Wintersbark, Wintersbite
Jormag’s Needle

Corrupted Lodestones:
Corrupted Weapons
Jormag’s Breath
Jormag’s Needle
Gift of Ice
Gift of Moon- Mad King Weapons

Crystal Lodestone:
Reaver of the Mists

Is it really shocking that Glacial and Crystal go for almost nothing compared to Onyx, Charged and Corrupted. Molten would probably be up with Onyx and Destroyer if CoF runs weren’t so common.

My point is that if the recipes were better designed to incorporate other lodestones or if there were a more even array of awesome skins for each lodestone then Charged wouldn’t be in such high demand because there would be competition with other lodestones.

Ayrilana.1396:

IamDuddits.1692:

Ayrilana.1396:

You’d have to teach people what skills are cc as well.

Every attack he does has a CC component lol. I’m not sure what you mean.

I was referring to the comment about defiant. I probably should have quoted him.

It’s certainly a good point. A lot of people don’t know what Defiant even is (even though there is a tool tip if you hover over it) because you never are required to.

A good way of teaching CC chaining would be to combine Defiant with some channeled ability that has to be interrupted. It could be doable in AC. Maybe have a boss that heals a large portion of his hit points and converts all conditions to boons (this would be to prevent people from just throwing poison on to circumvent the mechanic) if not interrupted, but for a damage perspective he could be rather tame. It’d give the group an opportunity to figure out what needs to be done without causing a wipe if they miss the interrupt.

Ayrilana.1396:

You’d have to teach people what skills are cc as well.

Every attack he does has a CC component lol. I’m not sure what you mean.

Seren.6850:

Troll is so unfun and overpowered now. Seriously just have giganticus Lupicus burst out of the wall instead as a bonus event.

Lupi is more fun to face than Troll. Troll is just a tedious fight due to the CC spam. The location he spawns makes Troll harder than he has to be as well.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Riss.1536:

Meanwhile for the newcomers I don’t think it’s fun to wipe and stay in the dungeon several hours. It can be very dissuasive for them to play dungeons.
You can say whatever you want about end game, if nobody but 1% play it it’s a failure and it’s not the 1% elitist that will keep the game alive.

THIS exactly. Why are so very few players playing dungeons at the moment? This is the reason.

Many players had their taste of dungeons at an early level, and the experience was a dreadful one. Not only is it way too hard that early in the game, but it also isn’t any fun. Fun is a very personal thing of course. Some players think difficult in itself brings a challenge, and thus it is fun. I see the two separate. Something can be easy, and still entertaining. And that is what I would like AC to be.

All this nonsense about “learn to dodge”, “don’t blame the game for your inability to do dungeons”… -none of that is relevant! So what, if some of you find these dungeons easy! You’re level 80’s in full exotics, and btw, so am I. I run these dungeons just fine now. But back when I got the invitation to the dungeon in my mail, around level 30, me and my team got torn to shreds. And that long agonizing experience turned most players away from dungeons for good.

Some players were willing to give dungeons a second chance, so they tried Twilight Arbor or Caudecus Manor. But let me tell you, if AC didn’t make you quit dungeons, those two will.

So based on your logic, AC should be made simple rather than actually teach the basic mechanics of the game that every dungeon thereafter builds on. So instead of quitting dungeons during AC they’ll just do it later in CM, TA or any of the other dungeons that dodging is required to succeed at.

If a player is so easily swayed away from dungeons that they’ll do it once or twice and then never go back or quit the game outright then I’m sorry to say that no change in the mechanics or the punishment for error is going to appease these players short of a face roll.

You make AC easier and within a few weeks time people will be posting: “why is CM so hard, it’s only the second dungeon, it’s for level 45s”

Vargamonth.2047:

ParnAshwind.4823:

Why should new players get themselves to level 80 to enjoy a level 35 dungeon?

As I said, I do not see AC Explorable exactly as lvl35 content, I see it more as “end game” content that you can (but you are probably not expected to) experience from lvl35 onwards.

The game already provides story dungeons at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 75, 78 and 80 iirc. I think that’s more than enough to experience dungeoning while leveling and discovering the game.
I see the level of explorables as a clever use of the downscaling mechanic that is more focused on “hardcore” gamers that could enjoy the challenge and specially on alt characters, never on an average fresh player.

I can see, however, a new player, probably unfamiliar to downscaling, getting somehow confused and frustrated when trying to run it at tagged level and being kitten hard.

This. At level 35, AC is meant to feel like end game content. You aren’t meant to face roll through them like it’s a series of level 35 Dynamic Events. Devs have even stated end game starts at level 1.

And as mentioned, the down scaling is meant to make earlier dungeons still be somewhat challenging at max level/gear. Completing AC in full exotics at level 80 is comparable to beating Contra using the Konami code.

Depends on party make up too. Five Thieves running AC Explorable will have a harder (and longer) run than a Plate Party doing the same path.

Kisses.1054:

Belakor.1296:

I expect a certain amount of farming in a game and I understand the rock/hard place that a developer is in with trying to balance play time to high level gear acquisition. But the way drop rates are right now the only thing I feel is that the grind is making the whole game less and less fun to play.

Except not really though. Because there are quite a few legendaries and fancy weapon skins (or in the case of ascended gear+laurels, a lot of people have alts). Once you have one, you have your happy pay-off, and then you set to work on the next, if collecting these skins is your thing. Only if the situation arises where it takes so long to get just the one item that it seems out of reach, becomes tedious, etc, then the gamer becomes discouraged and may move on to some other game with quicker pay-offs.

I feel the legendary items shouldn’t be something you get overnight, or with ease. The game is all about getting awesome skins to give your character a look. The problem is that the most efficient way to obtain a legendary has nothing to do with challenge or skill. It’s a combination of luck, CoF farming and working the Trade Post. Twilight and Sunrise are common enough that I know they are within reach if you are willing to play the game in a very particular way that only economics majors and stock brokers would find enjoyable.

The major problem with the market is the imbalance of the Tier 6 Fine and Tier 5 Rare market values. Crystal/Glacial Lodestones go for far less than Onyx/Corrupted/Charged Lodestones due to a lack of desirable recipes for these materials. Same goes for Powerful Bloods/Armored Scale/Crystalline Dust being far more valuable than the other Tier 6s.

This imbalance makes farming and selling mats a lot less viable than buying mats on the TP and selling crafts for the fact that farmers have less control over what drops they get, and thus their profits. Crafters will simply shift between what they make to keep profits high.

In all reality the only farming that can really compete with the Trade Post in terms of gold per effort is probably CoF runs.

Ayrilana.1396:

Kisses.1054:

Playing this dungeon feels like I’m beta testing. ex: People porting through walls, wvw level fps in spider room, buggy sparks in ghost lizard fight.

I have not seen any of the issues you have mentioned. People porting through walls is likely an exploit and that’s the player’s fault, not the game’s. There’s no reason to lag in the spider room so it’s either due to server lag (which affects everything, not just the dungeon) or your computer. How exactly are the sparks buggy? I can understand the boss but not the sparks.

During the Hodgins event, if you are standing between the edge of the graveling mound and the wall when the graveling mound is destroyed you will get kicked to the other side of the wall (I’ve only seen this happen on the mound that spawns in the corner next to the pillar). I wouldn’t really call it an exploit as it’s more of an inconvenience for the player than a benefit.

mjhungness.8059:

I think the original point the OP was making is that the first dungeon available, based on recommended level to run it, is AC. I understand the desire to make no exceptions to any of the dungeons in terms of complexity and required skills to run the dungeon, but I don’t agree with it. From a casual player’s standpoint, he hits 30th level, he gets an email invite to try out his first dungeon, he runs in (under whatever circumstances – pug, guild group, whatever) and is put to the test of a level of play that is not required in PvE to that point, unless he’s been soloing vets, or even champs.

My point is totally based on this first dungeon having a learning curve that teaches the player, without insta-death, how to read the boss’s tells, how to wait for the attack and to dodge, how to solve the puzzles, both from the environment of the dungeon and from the story arc they are playing.

It’s not that unreasonable to assume that people have solo’d Vets considering how many areas have skill points that involve killing a Vet plus adds. Regardless, if a player is having a difficult time soloing vets at level 30 then they should not be blaming dungeon difficulty, but rather their ineptitude. It’s a hard reality, but the sooner people realize that they aren’t as good as they think they are the sooner they will learn to improve and master the various elements of the game. It really takes little time, no where near the 6 hrs that you suggest.

As for dodging, players have 35 levels to learn that glowing, choreographed attack animations means that you should be dodging soon. With that being said, the reason instant death is used as punishment for failing the dodge is because anything shy of that and the player doesn’t learn the mechanic. This is proven by the fact that so many people get to AC not knowing how to dodge.

It’s not ACs fault that people expect dungeons to be as face roll as PvE.

John Smith.4610:

Let’s calm down a bit, this isn’t getting us far. Instead let me ask this.
Here are the assumptions that I’m operating under for this question:
1. You feel that PvE and TP have difference levels of gold earning
2. You feel that PvE and TP should have the same level of gold earning

What would be your plan for implementing a reward system that would achieve what you desire, given the constraint that you may not get rid of the trading post?

Have you considered making more recipes for under utilized materials? Crystal Lodestones go for nothing compared to other Lodestones, mostly because the recipes they are used for are not in hig demand. The same argument holds true for Ancient Bones and Powerful Venom Sacs, but rather due to condition damage not being a desired stat for a majority of builds.

An increased desire to get that sick new item that needs 250 Crystal Lodestones would allow PvE farmers that are farming Lodestone A to supplement their stockpile by selling Lodestone B, C, and D and using the gold to buy more A.

The problem is that people working the trade post just look for what is most profitable and shift to different areas of the market as the dynamics of the market shift. PvE Farmers don’t have that luxury. They get drops and if the drops aren’t good then they don’t make much that day. Furthermore, if you are farming Powerful Bloods you can’t even supplement your supply because the other mats sell for so little in comparison.

Basically, instead of increasing the supply of the expensive stuff, increase competition by increasing the demand of alternatives. The PvE end will benefit by having more valuable drops other than just Powerful Blood and Charged Lodestones.

CassieGold.7460:

Oglaf.1074:

Black Wolf.7348:

Charged lodestones have lots of recipes for weapons that is in high demand because of the good looking skins. the awesomeness of all the skins made with charged lodestones is many more than any other recipe using other types of lodestones. that is what increase the price and demand for the charged lodestones compared to all the other lodestones.

Yeah that’s bull, mate.

It is not because the demand is that much higher than other Lodestones, it is because there are so very few mobs in the game right now that can drop them. And just to spawn them you have to take a Temple in Orr.

If Anet came to their senses and added more lvl70+ Lightning Elementals in the world you would eventually see a normalization of the price.

I wold argue that they drop every bit as frequently as Onyx lodestones or Molten Lodestones, and have the same number of drop locations; however the ease of running CoF has artificicially deflated the value of Molten lodestones, and the lower number of things to do with Onyx lodestones leads to a lower demand that accounts for the difference in value between the two. Far fewer people run TA or CoE than smash their face at CoF p1 over and over again.

Most of my charged lodes / cores come from Fractals or orrian jewelry boxes, I wish I could say that I ran CoE a lot but…. I don’t. I’m also working on The Dreamer which doesn’t require lodestones, and Volcanus which doesn’t require charged lodes…. so I have less motivation to go there.

CoF running being the most efficient way to get anything certainly doesn’t help, but as you pointed out the items you make from Charged (along with Destroyer, Corrupted and Onyx) Lodestones are just more pleasing. Look at Crystal Lodestones. The recipes are just bad all around.

It’s not just lodestones. Powerful Bloods, Ecto, Crystalline Dust and even Armored Scales are much more expensive than their counterparts but are widely available. It’s not just the drop rates, it’s the demand for the items they make and the usefulness of their recipes. Crystalline Dust are used in almost every good recipe. Zerker and Knight’s gear is all that needs to be said. Totems, Claws and Fangs are very niche and for a good laugh look at Ancient Bones and Powerful Sac prices compared to the rest. I’m sure it’s not a shocker that the uselessness of Condition Damage as a stat has something to do with that.

A good start to making prices drop for materials would be to make the prices of the alternatives go up by increasing the demand for them. Think of it this way, if every lodestone sold for comparable prices, then it wouldn’t matter which one you farmed. You could just farm the easiest one and then sell them to buy the one you want.

Sojournion.1847:

Sebulon.7683:

I farmed Sparks at the gates of Arah with about 110% Magic Find and got 1 Charged Lodestone in less than an hour. If you really spent ~10 hours and didn’t get one, you were just really, really unlucky.

Although I understand, I need to get these for Sunrise. Gonna be one hell of a farm, since I really can’t afford to spend 300g buying them from TP. Whenever I see one for less than 3g I immediately buy it.

Also, the Orrian Jewelry boxes have such a low percentage to drop Lodestones you could almost call it a waste.

@Sebulon

Honestly speaking, you’re not farming efficiently. I recommend two options.

1)Run CoE exp, the chest has a chance of giving you cores or lodestones. If not you’ll get the gold from the dg run and buy them.
2)Run CoF p1 and just farm the gold to buy them.

Either of the two options above or with the method you’re doing now which is farming spark, all 3 still requires grind/farm.

CoF p1 farming with definately yeild the gold to buy the core/lodestone rather than the uncertainty of farming sparks for an hour to obtain a or multiple lodestone.

It’s really sad that the most efficient way to get anything in the game always involves farming CoF P1 and buying it on the TP. The game ceases to be “play the game the way you want to” when everything is so expensive that your only option is to farm CoF.

munkiman.3068:

IamDuddits.1692:

Depends on if you factor the time it takes to sell the item and what “playing the market” is defined as. I found it helpful to make an Excel spread sheet where I can input the cost of buying crafting mats and the sell price after TP fees to determine the most profitable items to make. Sometimes the items I put up sell in 10 mins, some times it takes a few hours, but the time I spent crafting and looking at prices is much less than 1 hour.

I’d say I get maybe 7-10 g a day for minimal effort.

gw2spidy has all that for you under the crafting section. it’ll tell you what your margins are, if it’s profitable to craft. The only things it doesn’t work with are things like trays of food (feast items), since it doesn’t take into account the mystic forge costs.

I use Excel to keep track of what I’ve purchased from the trade post and what I’ve sold. Some of my profits aren’t just gold, but also gear and materials. I’ve only netted 10 gold profit in 3 days, but I also have half an exotic armor set for myself (~10 g) and a surplus of materials (~14 g) . The site is useful for checking my number nonetheless.

Depends on if you factor the time it takes to sell the item and what “playing the market” is defined as. I found it helpful to make an Excel spread sheet where I can input the cost of buying crafting mats and the sell price after TP fees to determine the most profitable items to make. Sometimes the items I put up sell in 10 mins, some times it takes a few hours, but the time I spent crafting and looking at prices is much less than 1 hour.

I’d say I get maybe 7-10 g a day for minimal effort.

Baneful.5843:

I think we need more people to bump this thread some good stuff here. Just to add onto it a bit I think 10 man at least would be optimal because 5 man content feels to small making support feel less needed to to the amount of players. This may help the dps to win problem. Also this would make combo fields feel more needed with more people able to put them down and use them as a finisher. Mechanics like needing a person with a water field to blast finish to help sustain an aoe boss hit. Also for loot since you can make bosses drop stuff that can be part of a legendary on the hardest difficulty. Like obsidian shards or beating last boss gives a couple clovers and lodestones. As well as unique looks. The game right now is lacking ways for good players to show skill. Tpvp is about it WvW is a zerg fest which biggest group generally wins, and the dungeons are super easy and just a grind for cosmetics.

Support and Control don’t feel less needed, they simply feel like a hindrance. The only real support is Mesmer because they give all the utility the meta needs.

For complex mechanics to exist they need to force players into something more than DPSing as fast as possible. There is just nothing in terms of mechanics that require you to do any thing a glass cannon Zerker can’t do.

Ayrilana.1396:

I was partly serious but mostly sarcastic with that statement.

Dungeons are the only thing in this game that requires you to group up. You have to learn to work as a team. You have to wear appropriate gear. You have to have appropriate traits.

It will be difficult for those who are not 80 since they lack all of those traits and stat points. A lot of people who are leveling do it in berserker gear, don’t really plan out their stat point allocation, the traits they use, the skills they use (assuming they have many), and wear underleveled gear. The class of gear is likely greens and blues. To top this off, they are still new to their class and/or new to the game. This puts them at a severe disadvantage to level 80 which has a little more room for error.

You have people who choose not to read guides and tips on how to do dungeons. You have people that don’t realize that there is this nifty feature called dodge. You have people that want to faceroll everything without learning the mechanics of the dungeon and bosses.

All of this is why groups fail. It’s not because the dungeon itself is too difficult. It’s because the players choose to make it so.

(Clarification: berserker gear is good IF you’re experienced with your class and the dungeon)

Pretty much all of this.

People still use the “It’s the first dungeon” argument as an excuse for dodge being too hard to grasp. People say dodge-or-die is too harsh for the first dungeon, but honestly PvE leveling up to 35 was a gradual enough learning curve. If you haven’t learned to dodge highly choreographed attack animations from leveling then clearly the punishment for failing the dodge wasn’t enough for you to learn the mechanic. It’s not even a low level problem, I see so many level 80s fail this dodge repeatedly and consistently.

The other problem isn’t so much the people that don’t read dungeon tips and guides, it’s the people that don’t even listen to you. I think some of my most enjoyable AC runs were with groups consisting of low level players on their first characters and not from groups of all 80s that were in full zerker.

Ayrilana.1396:

Maybe should release an infantile dungeon for those who want a really easy dungeon.

This would be great. They could have kitten Clouds that spit rainbow bridges to the loot chests, you don’t even have to fight the bosses or do any of the events.

Slither Shade.4782:

And the icing on the cake. .. all that is pretty much the introduction haha awesome. Serious. Dont get me wrong I dont like it when people quit it makes me sad. I stay and encourage them to finish. Thats the best when someone new sticks it out and beats the boss.

I recall recently running AC with a group where one guy raged after the first wipe on Queen Spider (after complaining during the entire fight). I convinced the group to give it one more try with the remaining four people which resulted in Queen Spider dying without a single defeat. We eventually fell apart at Kholer, but killing Queen Spider made it rewarding enough :P.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Ascalon Catacombs was one of the hardest dungeons (save for Arah) upon release. It may or may not have gotten more difficult after the update. Twilight Arbor was a complete nightmare before some of the fixes. But it still isn’t very enjoyable (certainly not in storymode, that is even harder than explorable).

Pretty much every dungeon at release is awful. It’s nothing but hit point sponge after hit point sponge. There are some interesting mechanics in there with a lot of potential, but it’s hard to call any of the release dungeons pleasant.

AC, in my opinion, improved in some areas and got worse in others but improved overall. Improvements were the reduction of hit point pools and the changes to the end boss mechanics (bugs aside) to make them more than just tank n spanks with an occasional dodge.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The OP has a good point. When me and some guildies reached the right level to enter AC, we couldn’t wait to have some fun in there…. and then of course we got obliterated by teeth-grinding difficulty. None of us were having any fun, and it felt like a painful grind through mobs with all way too much health and damage. It would turn anyone away from dungeons right there. Not a very good introduction to dungeons in the slightest.

It sounds like you are referencing your experience with old AC more than the revamped version. The hit points on the mobs in every dungeon except AC is ridiculous. AC mobs drop significantly faster and the fights are a lot more involving.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No, of course I don’t. But this is a dungeon in a starter area. It might very well be everyone’s first encounter with a dungeon. And I think you’d want them to have fun, not kick them in the teeth, and turn them away from dungeons for good.

Aside from some tweaks and bug fixes, the dungeon does what an introductory dungeon should do: teach basic mechanics and team based coordination. It also forces you to learn you profession and how to properly pick utilities, gear, and traits. If you are dying to conditions a lot in AC then you probably should start using cleanses. I wouldn’t be surprised if people enter AC and never run Break stun or condition removal because it’s not something that is required most of the time while leveling up in zones.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Twilight Arbor isn’t much better. …

My point is, dungeons could be so much better, and be so much more fun. Frankly, you should demand more from such a creative team. And a first dungeon like AC should make people want to do more dungeons, not turn them away from dungeons because they’re not good enough to handle it.

Once again, TA and pretty much every other release dungeon is pretty bad when it comes to interesting mechanics. It’s all tank n spank on mobs/bosses with excessive HP. There are occasionally interesting mechanics but people either find cheese strategies around them or the mechanic goes unnoticed because DPSing and face tanking work fine enough (Legendary Effigy and the regen crystals in CoF come to mind).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Not everything has to be in infantile mode. But a steady difficulty curve is kind of important if you want people to enjoy your content.

I agree, but I think the difficulty curve of AC is just fine for an introductory dungeon. People just need to be willing to learn the mechanics and learn their class. Completing AC the first few times will require a certain level of humility that many players lack.

swiftpaw.6397:

Reason people skip- not worth killing the mobs.
Done the dungeon a hundred times before.
Just here to get the reward at the end and move on to the next dungeon.
Players are not to be blamed for poor dungeon design. If you make mobs with a ton of HP and give them crap drops, do you really think people are gonna kill them? No. We take the logical option and plow through to the end for the real reward. Time saved, is time used to plow through to the end of the next dungeon for another reward.

If you want to clear the whole dungeon, advertise for it. There’s people out there, just not as many, and for good reason.

Edit- Yes, Kholer is worth killing. People who want to skip him are not doing so to save time vs. money, they are doing so because they lack the skill to kill him. At that point I really question how the rest of the dungeon is going to go.

When I form groups I pretty much tell them we are doing Kholer until he dies. I’m patient enough to let them learn the boss because skipping him every time isn’t helping them, and thankfully I play a guardian so I can always pop stability if needed.

And I agree, it blows my mind that people still can’t get Kholers mechanics down.

George Steel.1804:

IamDuddits.1692:

George Steel.1804:

The benefit of having bigger raid group (8-10) is so more individuals can actually participate and play together. Dungeons are notorious for splitting individuals and guildmates into small groups; many miss the fun of playing with more people.

I think 10 would be a great middle ground, but would even like to see 25 man raid dungeons introduced!

I agree it does that, but I’d like to see them have some kind of mechanics associated with this too. Something as basic as soaking up AoEs that do damage divided by the number of players hit so that you’d need 3-5 people to stack on different 2-3 different locations so that they can block AoE damage but still survive the damage: Think Dragon Soul in Cata just before Warmaster Blackthorn.

It’s fine letting guildies group in bigger groups, but we need better mechanics for larger groups than simply adding on more damage and hp.

Oh I completely agree, I really want to see some challenging and interesting mechanics involved. I’m sad that the only fights with any significance in GW2 for me were Simin (spark kiting) and Lupicus.

There’s just so much potential, and so far, little results. The dungeon content is a bit disappointing for an MMO of this caliber.

You forgot to add Kholer to that list. According to the mass threads about AC, Kholer is an incredibly challenging boss fight….

With that being said, I would love to see some really awesome boss fight mechanics but it will really depend on if the community is willing to learn basic mechanics. I agree there is a lot of potential. I’d really love to see some usage of Comboing.

Lupi was a very fun fight, but I haven’t done Simin. What exactly is the spark kiting mechanic for Simin, besides the obvious response? Why do you have to kite the sparks? Is he Arah?

I actually think the Temple fights in Orr aren’t too bad. Still a tank n spank Zerg, but at least the bosses have mechanics you have to look out for.

George Steel.1804:

The benefit of having bigger raid group (8-10) is so more individuals can actually participate and play together. Dungeons are notorious for splitting individuals and guildmates into small groups; many miss the fun of playing with more people.

I think 10 would be a great middle ground, but would even like to see 25 man raid dungeons introduced!

I agree it does that, but I’d like to see them have some kind of mechanics associated with this too. Something as basic as soaking up AoEs that do damage divided by the number of players hit so that you’d need 3-5 people to stack on different 2-3 different locations so that they can block AoE damage but still survive the damage: Think Dragon Soul in Cata just before Warmaster Blackthorn.

It’s fine letting guildies group in bigger groups, but we need better mechanics for larger groups than simply adding on more damage and hp.

Oolune.4357:

Stooperdale.3560:

What benefits do you want from an 8+ person raid that can’t be found in a 5 person group? Bigger is not necessarily better. A need for coordinated teamwork between 10 or more players is as much of a drawback as a benefit and will exclude many players (outside of guilds) from completing the content.

Open world events should provide the massive multi-player content although they could certainly be improved. Guild bounties also provide coordination challenges for more than 5 players with some challenging fights.

I would like to see content that larger groups could partake in that is not a simple, boring event chain or a world boss that gets zerged down/camped and farmed. Also, the guild bounties are hardly entertaining or full of content. It’s a whole bunch of looking and then a fight? And you are required to be in the same guild to do it. Not everyone has all of their friends in the same guild or a guild that is willing to just randomly invite people to accommodate them for bounties.

Instanced content for slightly larger groups would be entertaining and interesting. Not sure why you seem opposed to it other than just to be one of those random forumers who want to be contrary.

The initial question he asks is a good point. What is having dungeons be 8+ really providing to the challenge? With the current state of how each role (DPS, Support, Control) is weighted and how mechanics are implemented, I think that having more than 5 would offer little diversity. Change needs to occur before bigger parties will offer more diversity.

I think the important change that needs to be implemented before raid-like content can be fully utilized is a shift from the DPS meta. Support and Control are just under utilized and there will need to be mechanics implemented into dungeons that not only encourage, but require Support and Control. I’m not talking Trinity here, but rather the use of Support/Control skills over pure DPS. Any class has the ability to balance DPS, Support and Control in addition to going a more pure role. People could still roll in a party of 5 Warriors because 5 Warriors could trait and skill to strike a balance between the 3 roles.

Ayrilana.1396:

People don’t skip trash because they don’t have the skill to kill them. This is a very absurd statement/conclusion. People skip trash because it’s not worth the time. It also takes skill to skip trash. Go to Arah and you’ll see what I mean.

I also disagree about trash mobs being content. They’re not; just a time sink. Lets hypothetically say they were “content”, would you want to see the same thing over and over? For example, would you watch the cutscenes every time you do dungeon stories just so you don’t miss the content? Do you fight every mob from point A to point B so you don’t miss that content? So you talk to every npc in the game so you don’t miss that content? When you level a new character do you not skip any of the content I just mentioned?

I’m not a fan of skipping mobs, but I am also no a fan of mobs being placed purely as a time sink, or trash.

That post by Robert was interesting insight on the balancing behind it, but at the same time if they can’t find a balance between too time efficient leading to farming and not time efficient enough leading to skipping then why don’t they just remove the trash outright. It seems like a waste having these mobs that 90% of the groups just skip.

In my brief time playing WoW I don’t think I ever recall so much complaining over trash. What was so different about WoW trash vs GW2 trash, besides the fact that WoW trash will keep following.

Oolune.4357:

Despite the ignorant opinions of those such as Shiren, I do, in-fact, enjoy skipping (in some cases) more than fighting.

Can my usual dungeon group clear the content? Easily. It will make things take much longer, but we can do it just fine. However, I would rather make clever use of a mesmer’s portal or a thief’s stealth. I would rather combine the utilities of various professions in such a way as to yield a positive result that doesn’t necessarily involve combat efficiency.

I have always enjoyed the idea of using alternative methods to succeed in dungeons, and Guild Wars 2 is one of the few current MMOs with that ability. Dungeons in other games bored the hell out of me, forcing me to just farm out the proper gear in order to sit there and spam my skills on each mob then move on to the next. It is MUCH more entertaining to pull together all of the party’s utilities and find another method. At least, for me.

And that’s the point. It’s more entertaining for me. No one is forcing you to play with groups that want to skip some of the trash. YOU are trying to force THEM to play a certain way, not the other way around.

What you are missing is that nearly every group expects to skip everything. I’d believe the philosophy of “Play how you want to play”, but the problem is it’s not like 33% or 50% or 10% of people skipping dungeon mobs, it’s nearly every group. When almost your entire player base is skipping dungeon mobs then it ceases to be an option for completing a dungeon as you are required to do it if you want to ever run the dungeon. It’s a sign that there is something deeply wrong with the way your dungeon mobs are designed

Size:

~10 would be a maximum, good mechanics could be done with 5. We already have World Events for the 40 person zerg fest and with the lack of solid roles it would make things difficult to coordinate who is doing what.

Design:

I see two valid options:

1) An open instance with multiple bosses that you could fight in any particular order. For those of you that have played WoW during Cataclysm, think Fire Lands but without the trash. There would be one final boss that you’d fight after all other bosses have been beaten. Upon beating each boss you’d acquire an achievement or a token that would be used as proof of entry to the final boss.

2) A linear dungeon approach but without trash. Just boss after boss perhaps with environmental obstacles/jump puzzles in between. To prevent tedium or lock outs we could have a token option as mentioned where you could jump to a certain part of the raid if all members have beaten the content up to a certain point.

Difficulty/Mechanics:

Class Roles: They do exist in the game, but their importance is horridly balanced. DPS dominates in this role. The game needs mechanics that can not be mitigated by killing something as fast as possible. With that being said here are some ideas for mechanics that incorporate what the other roles bring to the table:

Support:

-Unavoidable damage that requires buffs in the form of regen or protection
-Providing Combo Fields, Cleanses, Reflects, or other utilities for the purpose of making it through debuffs/projectiles that personal utilities won’t be enough for

Control:

-Interrupt or wipe mechanics
-Add control that can’t simply be DPS’d down
-Mechanics involving someone being able to soak up damage but not in the sense of tank n spank. Maybe a button/switch needs to be pressed in an area with a continuous DoT.

These mechanics wouldn’t require a trinity. The reason being that classes can go hybrid and bring a little bit of each and still function well. On the other hand you could run a pure support that provides great boons/heals at the sacrifice of damage but allows their allies to go glass cannon.

I’d also like to point out that I’d like to see Combos be something that really needs to be utilized in a raid as right now it’s just a nifty little thing that people accidentally do half the time.

Loot:

-Unique drops based on dungeon
-No tokens. Tokens say that if you do the dungeon X times you will get your reward. There is a definite end.
-If there are tokens, make them buy Tier 6 Refined Mats, Tier 6 Fines and Lodestones instead of gear. This would offer potential for removing inflated prices for Lodestones, Bloods, and Dusts.
-Better drop for harder content.

Progression:

-None. It’s worth noting that Agony is an awful progression idea. It’s a gear check in a game that is suppose to not emphasize gear checks. Make the raid about coordination and proper builds and not about having the proper gear progression.

FourthVariety.5463:

Story mode: face roll

Explorable:

Take a look at the Graveling Champion right after the spider. There is a clearly defined boss mechanic asking one player to conquer a 1on1 situation. More importantly though, if the player fails, the punishment is not death. I can’t stress enough of what sort of difference that makes for players new to the dungeon circuit. Compare and contrast that to Kholer who does not put one player at jeopardy, but instead the entire group. Failure to dodge him carries the penalty of being downed, pressure from the adds can quickly turn it into death and reduced group size.

Ways to avoid Kholer’s infamous One-Hit-KO:

-Dodging
-Blocking
-Projectile Reflect/Absorb
-Stability
-Invulnerability
-Break Stun + Dodge + Condition Removal
-Interrupt (Very unlikely to happen in a pug, but worth adding)

Even if you can’t dodge, most Professions have Invulnerability, Stability, Block, Reflects, Condition Removal and/or Break Stun available to them by level 35. Are all of these options too difficult for new players to handle?

People have this delusion that introductory=easy. Introductory = learning the basics, and whether you want to admit it or not part of learning the basics is learning the tools your profession has for avoiding attacks and mitigating damage.

FourthVariety.5463:

Ascalon Catacombs might be a level 35 dungeon, it might be doable with level 35 characters, but most of the boss mechanics target the group of level 80 powergamers. It is a result of how unforgiving they have become. Very fast to down and kill a person, impossible to get back into the fight without resetting the encounter. The design is way too punitive for a first dungeon.

This is true for Queen Spider only. Everything else in the dungeon it is flat out false. Actually, the weaker adds that the patch added to Kholer make rallying during the fight a lot easier.

FourthVariety.5463:

I found my non-powergaming friends do not have a problem with the gear requirements. They do not have a problem with the reaction window. They do not have a problem with the control input. The biggest issue is the reading speed and comprehension of any given situation. This will lead to guaranteed fails of player reaction checks. If the punishment is death, the game quickly turns “difficult”. Especially since the respawn mechanics then locks the weaker players out of participating again. This means it takes longer to build up an ability to correctly read and respond to a situation, because you do not encounter it as often, if you are just watching for other dudes finish the fight.

“The biggest issue is the reading speed and comprehension of any given situation.” Please explain this cryptic statement to me.

The respawn mechanics are fine. The old mechanics that allowed corpse runs pretty much removed any meaning of boss mechanics.

FourthVariety.5463:

If I can get three of my more casual friends through the Dredge and the Grawl Fractal in one run and on their first attempt, but no longer through AC, it tells you all you need to know. AC may be a huge fanservice for the hardcore, but it is not a suitable introduction into coordinated teamplay.

You got three casuals through Fractals because Fractals aren’t even full dungeons. Comparing Fractals to AC (or any dungeon for that matter) tells you nothing.

Speaking of Dredge Fractal, are you aware that the bombs the end boss throws can pretty much one shot anyone shy of a Toughness/Vitality build? Same goes for Grawls Shaman’s AoEs in both phases.

Xavori.3768:

IamDuddits,

Nowhere did I use the word “better” when explaining my reasoning. I think I used words like “business” and “expenses”. GW2 is a business, and their business is entertaining players. If your ‘update’ to existing entertainment is attracting fewer players, obviously it’s a failure. Better has nothing to do with that part.

Better can explain why it’s failing to attract more players tho…

You didn’t use the word better, but I figured “X>Y = bad” meant that you are implying it was better before the changes.

Xavori.3768:

Now, previously I mentioned better because I don’t think the new AC is better. Kholer was better before. Fixing Kholer by letting him spawn adds constantly doesn’t make that fight any better. It just provides additional incentive for groups to skip a boss fight they were already skipping. You want to make Kholer better for the first exploration mode dungeon, you do it by making him more forgiving. Instead of ‘miss dodgedeath" it should be "miss dodge50% of life gone". That’s a better fight for new players. They still have incentive to improve, but aren’t going to get frustrated and quit.

I’ve already expressed my stance on the Kholer fight. We are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this one and will not agree on it.

Xavori.3768:

Spider Queen isn’t better either. I actually liked the Spider Queen fight before as she could kill players who didn’t make sure to clear the spiderlings first, or who didn’t pay attention and got caught. Now, non-tank builds who try to melee her WILL die. She’ll eventually catch them with no stun breakers and then hit her big channel attack, and down they go. Or, she’ll immobilize someone on one of those everlasting poison pools.

If you think that Queen Spider was great before when you could face tank her and stand in the AoEs for their full duration, then once again we are on opposite sides of the spectrum on what we think an introductory dungeon should be providing to new players: a platform for teaching new players how to improve their play.

The only change she needs is the AoEs need to linger for less time. It’s not uncommon for her to be un-meleeable (is that even a word?) because she has two sets of AoEs pretty much all around her.

Xavori.3768:

The final boss fights aren’t better either. I am rabidly opposed to being dependent on NPC’s for my success. If I’m playing a game, I want it to be about my skill and my strategy. I don’t want to fail because Grast decided to go all Charge of the Light Brigade on the big bad. I don’t want to fail because Hodgypoo keeps throwing fire circles at the back of the room instead of anywhere near where the adds are coming through.

I agree with both. Grast fight, bugs aside, could still be a better mechanic. At the same time it’s an introductory dungeon so anything more complicated might be too much, but I do like the idea of using a bubble to protect you rather than just relying on well timed rolls and boons. It’s unavoidable damage and I think that’s a strong point of the fight.

Hodgins could have better placement of the AoEs. That’s about it for this fight. I think the fight is fine and demonstrates a really basic dungeon mechanic to new players.

Xavori.3768:

Ghost Eater v2.0 is better than 1.0, but is still seriously tedious. Once you figure out the mechanics and get it going, you’re going to win. Cut the hitpoints in half, reduce the damage of the really big hit (no boss in a low level dungeon should be able to one-shot-kill any player no matter how fragile the build).

I agree on the hit points completely. His mechanic is very simple. A coordinated group with good DPS could have him down in 2 traps, but a group of lower levels with less than optimal gear could take longer, which is really unnecessary for how basic he is. 50% of what he has would do the trick, but even 75% would help a lot.

Xavori.3768:

So no, new AC isn’t better. If it was better, it would also be more popular. It’s gone from being a great way to level up, make a bit of gold, and meet new people to a dungeon people only do when a guildie really wants to get their dungeon master title.

The first part is subjective and the last part is flat out false. I find the dungeon to be an improvement, though not perfect, and a lot of people I’ve run it with (mostly pugs) have agreed. I’ve befriended a few people just from running AC. Maybe you just have bad luck with pugs.

Understand that people will farm dungeons until it’s not worth their time to farm it anymore. The people that left AC were farmers and I’d be willing to bet that if/when CoF gets revamped the same will happen there because that’s what farmers do. They are a volatile player base.

swiftpaw.6397:

Doesn’t take too long to get a group for it usually, but you can sure see there are alot less people doing it. I think it’s a combination of added length of time to get it done, and new mechanics that people don’t want to have to face.

It’s still easy but I stopped doing it on a daily basis because it takes longer than it did before and I’d rather do HOTW/SE/Arah. by the same merit though, why do any of these dungeons atm when there is COF P1?

well for me, Cof is just too mind-numbingly boring for me to handle >_< But I’m sure that COF1, for some people, validates their reason for not touching AC anymore.

It’s ok, when CoFs turn comes up to get hit with the revamp bat we can see a bunch of these posts for CoF as the Gold/Ecto farmers have to learn a new band wagon to hop on.

Just curious, but are SE/Arah full of hit point sponges like pre-patch AC and current CM? Interested in running some of the other explorable dungeons but I’m hoping to avoid a snooze fest due to enemies with tons of hp that don’t deal enough damage to be a threat.

SkyChef.5432:

Anet could take your view or could take my view, and that doesn’t mean one view is better than the other. The only better view is whatever view the mass like the most and that how a good company supposes to operate. Unfortunately, many companies are operated by idiots. Or listen to idiots.

Isn’t appeasing the masses and listening to idiots usually the same thing?

Leo Paul.1659:

IamDuddits.1692:

Xavori.3768:

This is actually really easy to answer. I’ve pointed out the flaws in the dungeons in a few previous posts but ultimately it comes down to this:

X = number of people who ran dungeon before changes
Y = number of people running dungeon after changes

If X>Y then bad

This logic is so horribly flawed. Being more popular doesn’t mean it’s inherently better than something else. More people visit McDonald’s on a daily basis than 5 star restaurants therefore McDonald’s>5 Star restaurants. That’s what your logic is saying.

More factors go into whether something is good or bad than number of users.

Wrong analogy. Better off comparing old Mcdonald’s vs new Mcdonald’s here.

The comparison wasn’t meant to be: McDonald’s=old AC; 5 Star Restaurant=New AC. That’s not even remotely close. The point of the example was to show that the popularity of something doesn’t equate to being better, which his entire logic was implying.

I think they improved on some mechanics, but they still have a lot of bugs to fix and some really awful mechanics (Graveling Knockdowns and Troll).

Xavori.3768:

This is actually really easy to answer. I’ve pointed out the flaws in the dungeons in a few previous posts but ultimately it comes down to this:

X = number of people who ran dungeon before changes
Y = number of people running dungeon after changes

If X>Y then bad

This logic is so horribly flawed. Being more popular doesn’t mean it’s inherently better than something else. More people visit McDonald’s on a daily basis than 5 star restaurants therefore McDonald’s>5 Star restaurants. That’s what your logic is saying.

More factors go into whether something is good or bad than number of users.

monkeydluffy.7896:

why would I do AC when I can do COF thats easy and good money. Im not wasting my time on something thats long and annoying and most of all dosen’t reward good money. I can get everything I want in COF tokens ectos from disechanting

You wouldn’t do AC because you are farmer and go where ever the highest gold to time ratio is. And I’m sure when CoF gets nerfed you’ll replace it with a new farming spot because that’s what farmers do.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Provost.6210:

The spider queen’s AOE poison needs to be nerfed. Reduced 25% in size and damage. If two areas overlap over my position I don’t even have a chance to get out before I’m down. It’s stupid. I have excellent dodging abilities and a good head for placement — which is more than sufficient for other battles in this and other dungeons — but it doesn’t seem to mean anything in this fight. When player skill doesn’t matter, why bother?

I disagree. The damage is fine, the pattern is fine. What needs adjustment is the duration. The prior pattern should fade away as the next one is being spit, not linger so you have two sets.

Exactly. The other problem is that generally the poison has enough time to drop you from full and prevent allies from reviving without dropping themselves. Maybe if the duration was 75% what it currently is? Also, I think if you all stack melee on her she doesn’t use the AoEs. I’ve solo’d her a few times and she never used it once I got up close and personal.

Some could argue that the spiderlings need some changes, but I think with proper focus and some projectile reflection/absorption, they are more than doable. They are only a problem if you ignore them.

As a side note, I’m pretty sure you can side step the projectiles from the spiderlings and avoid the hit.

GuzziHero.2467:

Aven.7295:

I would be happy, if it was just more astheticly pleaseing… i feel so lame useing a scepter. when i imagine a big plate warrior useing a magic scepter, i was hopeing for something a little more inspirational than little blue tenis balls and tiny magic fists

Oh heck, that made me laugh

Reminds me of…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ04mfAY2BU

I don’t know why, but the single spectator giving an enthusiastic applaud at the end cracks me up every time.

The ease of respeccing your utility skills and swapping weapons is something that GW2 has over WoW. You can go into a dungeon and you have a lot more options. They need to incorporate this with their “no Trinity” philosophy. Warriors have a lot of support and control options at their disposal, but you never see them because Damage is so heavily weighted.

Combos are another great mechanic that is under utilized by the dungeon mechanics. You never really need to use them, making them more of a gimmick than a mechanic. They are incredibly useful, but I hardly ever see them used.

My point is that every class has control, damage, and support that they can bring in, meaning that they should be designing dungeons that assume you always have enough heals to heal through unavoidable AoE and that you always have enough CC to interrupt an unavoidable Wipe. Honestly, they could even do something that would instantly down someone which could encourage taking those “Revive” skills that you never see used.

There are just a lot of interesting weapon combos, utility skills and traits that never get used simply because they don’t maximize DPS. People won’t use a utility unless you give them instances where the utility is useful or needed.

Generally speaking, when I switch to ranged on my Guardian I tend to accept that I am not there for damage but rather for support. With that being said, Scepter needs to either be converted to a more support oriented weapon to fill this role better (Staff is just solid at this) or be at least at an acceptable level for a ranged offensive weapon (which is what I think they were aiming for). It doesn’t need to be on par with Guardian melee weapons, but most of the time when I think about going Scepter for a fight, I instead choose to just suck it up and melee with greatsword.

The major problem with it is that it offers only damage (#1 and #2) and a Immobilization/Invulnerability (#3). I could say this about Sword as well, but it’s lack of a symbol leaves a lot to be desired.

Adding challenging content would require them to weigh control and support as heavily as damage currently is. 4 Warrior 1 Mesmer in runs is just too good because you really don’t need support or control to overcome the mechanics.

They could still keep the philosophy that a trinity doesn’t exist for the simple fact that every class is capable of bringing damage, support and control to the table in one form or another, assuming the player is willing to respec for given fights. That’s a big assumption though.

They could very well have fights that would require Interrupt or Wipe mechanics or something that would require your team to stack on an AoE regeneration to heal through unavoidable AoE damage because of how readily available AoE buffs are.

Shiren.9532:

Personally I think it’s because the trap charging part of the encounter does not use mechanics the rest of the game uses. You spend all this time getting to 80 and learning how to fight in a group setting (giving allies boons, using CC to keep mobs off of the back line, throwing down water fields etc) and then the trap charging part uses none of those mechanics. You still have to stay alive, but none of you’re other skills matter.

Instead you have to learn a mechanic totally foreign to the rest of the game which utilises synchronisation as a skill (something which isn’t going to be a problem for pre-made teams but will be a great difficulty for other teams). It doesn’t challenge your GW2 combat abilities, it challenges your team’s ability to use an environmental weapon at the same time.

This isn’t so much a problem with an instance, but more so a problem with the way the importance of Control, Support and Damage are handled. Hands down the most efficient way to get through anything is to stack as much damage as possible, hence 4 warriors and 1 mesmer. Damage is the most highly valued of these three in the game simply because the boss mechanics are so simple.

Bosses have only a couple of abilities, attack slow and most of their damage can be mitigated with good skill choice (with evades or invulnerability) and dodging. At no point is it ever required to have a good support or controller.

Compare this to WoW where you needed to have a healer heal you through the damage or you needed a tank to soak up the unavoidable damage.

I’m not saying GW2 needs to be WoW, but what I am saying is that the game could benefit more from necessitating support and control abilities over pure glass cannon damage builds, because frankly you are never really required to have a Guardian dropping protection/regeneration on the party to get through a fight or required to have a controller spamming interrupts to stop skills that cause a party wipe. Going support or control in a party more often than not only slows down clear times.

IndigoSundown.5419:

IamDuddits.1692:

AC was run because it was easy to farm, just like CoF Path 1. The popularity of a dungeon is based on how farmable it is more so than the enjoyment it gives, sadly.

This was inevitable. It’s one of the major issues facing any MMO; how do you keep people playing past the point where the shiny newness has worn off and all that’s left is repetition? While there are people who repeat content because it’s fun, repeating harder content for fun is only going to appeal to certain players. The rest will gravitate towards the best return on time for what they want.

I’m aware this is inevitable. My point is that people keep arguing that fewer people are running the dungeon because it’s too difficult,however, they fail to realize that fewer people are running the dungeon because it’s less farmable.

Farmers in MMOs are the most volatile part of the player base. As you put it, they will gravitate toward the easy money and materials and will stop running an instance/dungeon the minute it stops being profitable. Dungeons, in my opinion, should not be balanced or designed for their convenience and if the consequence of this is longer waits to get a party to run a particular dungeon then so be it.

Xystus.3241:

If you’re going beyond 3 traps constantly, I would look at what is going on. It maybe a gear/level thing; for me, he normally dies after 2 traps. Sometimes I need a 3rd.

When I do it’s because I’m either running it as a four man or because it’s a lower level/first timer group. Two traps seems reasonable if you are running a very coordinated group with a lot of damage output. But how many traps would it take for five 35s in Greens? I wouldn’t be too surprised if it would be over 4 traps and I haven’t even considered that some players might be downed during the burn phase, which is bound to happen in a lower level pug.

I still think the fight is easy overall, but simply drags out longer than needed.

Chasind.3128:

Yes, makes perfect sense- starter/ low leveled dungeons now harder than higher leveled dungeons

seems logic enough.

Yea, I hear their goal was to revamp the first dungeon and then call it quits /sarcasm.

Awbee.8405:

Updating AC was a terrible decision, imo — at least in the way they did it. I used to run AC a lot and enjoyed it immensely, now I just don’t do it anymore, at all. Nobody else seems to do it anymore either, at least not in my guild, and only very few people on gw2lfg.

It was one out of two dungeons that people actually ran often and enjoyed. Now only one is left, CoF 1, and that one is far more “imbalanced”. Why, arenanet?

AC was run because it was easy to farm, just like CoF Path 1. The popularity of a dungeon is based on how farmable it is more so than the enjoyment it gives, sadly.

Bugs aside, the only changes this boss really could use would be a reduction in hit points or a fixed % damage that each trap does in addition to popping his shield. People have figured out how to handle the boss after 2-3 traps and anything beyond that begins to be tedious.

I think the mechanic is fine, just the boss drags on a little longer than really necessary.

Danireathorn.2814:

IamDuddits.1692:

Danireathorn.2814:

I’d like to throw in my thoughts.

Before the patch, many of the speed run/experienced players ran all three paths. After the patch, those people usually only run paths 1 or 3. You might want to consider that the reason that you’re having trouble PUGing path 2 is because there simply are less experienced people willing do to path 2 because path 1 is less buggy and path 3 has a few safe spots from the rock falls.

edit: What Swiftpaw said makes sense. I run into the same problem (of people telling me it takes too long) if I decide to try and PUG path 2.

Not sure if it’s just my server, but I find the exact opposite to be true: pugs generally want to do path 2 or only have experience doing path 2. This is of course only since the changes. I just assumed it was because path 2 doesn’t have the DPS requirements that Hodgins and Lovers requires.

I wish I was able to have as much luck finding P2 groups as you! Whenever I look on LFG for groups, the P1/P3 groups far outnumber the P2 ones.

I try to host my own groups when I can just so I can specify all paths and require Kholer. I generally try to run AC when I can if you need an extra person to run it with.

Danireathorn.2814:

I’d like to throw in my thoughts.

Before the patch, many of the speed run/experienced players ran all three paths. After the patch, those people usually only run paths 1 or 3. You might want to consider that the reason that you’re having trouble PUGing path 2 is because there simply are less experienced people willing do to path 2 because path 1 is less buggy and path 3 has a few safe spots from the rock falls.

edit: What Swiftpaw said makes sense. I run into the same problem (of people telling me it takes too long) if I decide to try and PUG path 2.

Not sure if it’s just my server, but I find the exact opposite to be true: pugs generally want to do path 2 or only have experience doing path 2. This is of course only since the changes. I just assumed it was because path 2 doesn’t have the DPS requirements that Hodgins and Lovers requires.

Swagg.9236:

JDrover.9175:

It does not Help that the current AC is horribly glitched in every path, Extra Spawns, getting stuck in walls halfway through fights, even monster regeneration, its just unplayable

This. It’s sort of not an issue of the dungeon being “too hard” as it is it just being a bugged pile of slop.

Furthermore, I feel that not just AC, but most dungeons in general are dying given that most people by now are level 80 and are focused more on farming what is easiest rather than grinding dungeons for fashion, leveling or otherwise. AC just isn’t as appealing as CoF—nothing is. CoF has decent enemy health levels and isn’t buggy as the crow flies.

The bugs certainly don’t help. I feel like one of the biggest and most noticeable improvements to AC was the hit point changes on mobs. Bosses and trash go down significantly faster, when you can hit them. However, things like Stalker evade, Troll CC spam, and Ghost Eater mechanic artificially length these fights. Kholer I still think is well done. The adds drop fast and Kholer’s goes down fast enough that you don’t get too sick of the fight in one go.

When comparing other dungeons to AC, the trash and bosses just seem so tedious. The Effigy in CoF stands out, but you could say this about pretty much every other dungeon in the game.

I haven’t run every single Explorable, but I’ve done all the Story modes except CoE. Iron Forgeman at the end of Story Mode Sorrow’s Embrace, and maybe the Golem fights just before, as well as Story Mode CoF stand out as being decent boss fights. The rest of the dungeon is hit point sponge after hit point sponge, but those fights at least feel like there is more to them than a tank n spank.

Rachel.1249:

Honestly, areanet should set Ac entry lvl to 80 since its impossible for a grp of lvl 35s to clear it!

A group of level 35s in Masterwork gear did this and live streamed it. Character level has nothing to do with it, it’s player experience.

Gear and levels will only take you so far, if you can’t learn the mechanics, dodge or work as a team then you will wipe repeatedly, Level 80 Full Exotics or not.

Xavori.3768:

That’s actual another problem with the new ‘interesting’.

It was pretty cool figuring out how this fight worked the first time. And it’s kinda fun to show people…for 2, maybe 3 traps. After that, the cool wears off and it’s just a long, tedious fight. I mean, still more interesting than Ghost Eater ver 1.0 which you could just facetank, even in full zerker gear, but this Ghost Eater ver 2.0 should have half the hitpoints it currently does.

Extra hitpoints don’t make fights ‘interesting’. They make them long and boring. Ghost Eater isn’t the only fight that suffers this problem. Heck, AC isn’t the only dungeon that suffers this problem.

I agree with you and Softspoken on this. The mechanic is fantastic, but you’ve got the idea of what you need to do by the 3rd or 4th trap. Anything beyond that is just tedious. If they decrease the hitpoints or make the traps do percentage based damage when they pop that would help. The damage on the traps would at the very least guarantee that the boss would be down by the Xth trap regardless of the DPS the group is capable and remove some of the gear requirement from the fight.

Ravad.9761:

So a lot of discussion on this one… will add my .02 cents… I never viewed AC as real easy. Sure it was if you wanted to skip, but for those people who like to actually kill bosses instead of run by them, they buffed all the wrong area’s. Khoeler? Really? Let’s take the number one boss in the instance that no one wanted to do aaaaand… make it harder!! That’ll get people playing AC again. For people’s first dungeon experience in the game, this was not a smart move. It skews a lot of first timers opinion of the game and ultimately hurts everything all around, economy, group finding, game morale etc. I don’t like easy, that’s why I don’t like skipping, but I don’t want to bang my head against a boss whose mechanics lends to missing one move that one shots you. The guild on vent can call the rolls, but try pugging it with the added adds he now summons and incoming rage quits. Or the thing that really burns me… “let’s just skip guys…”

ANET, you need to evaluate your “buff” spots are not the spots that everyone already skips in the first place because it’s no longer fun.

When you say that he was mad harder you mean the fact that they removed the means of pulling him without his adds. This wasn’t a buff to the boss, it was fixing an exploit. The changes make it apparent that the bosses mechanics were to involve dealing with the adds. Making the adds weaker and spawn at predictable intervals was an improvement because it reinforces the idea of dealing with the adds over the boss.

When I run with pugs I try to encourage them to do this boss because skipping him only deprives them of learning a very basic, but crucial, mechanic.

PCanineBrigade.4916:

Current Ghost Eater will be even harder if he stops going afk randomly.
Melee? Here’s some spammable random 3 rolling water ring that will one shot you close range.
Ranged? Here’s some white-spit AoE field.. thingie.. while the adds block your projectiles.

I did P1 with my War and noticed how ridiculous it was at last boss fight. Chain knockdowns/backs everywhere and I don’t have enough Endurance. It was easy when I was a Guardian with perma Vigor, staying in melee range with 4-5 Gravelings waiting to chomp on my dead body while holding the Boss’s aggro altogether.
And those gravelings hatchings.. GOD. Whoever thought it would be a good idea to buff their HP and give them ridiculous Bleed deserves to get prohibited from popping anymore bubble wraps.

IMO Current AC is still quite enjoyable to some extent right now only because mobs are still randomly going AFK now and then. It would be HELL if they don’t do that anymore.

The boss AFKing gives groups an opportunity to charge up the traps and revive downed players, but I’m gathering if this gets fixed it’d just mean that someone would have to kite him around while the others charged the traps.

The thing is though that I don’t believe you can draw away the AoEs. Even when he’s aggro’d to me he will always turn around and drop his AoEs on the group.

DanteZero.9736:

Having just finished path 2 post update, I can say that the boss fight isn’t fun if the PUG is uncoordinated. That being said, how well do you think the typical pug can coordinate themselves to quickly and semi-efficiently take down the ghost eater?

The first few times it will go slowly, but the whole point of the fight is to teach coordination and teamwork to people that normally lack it the most (PUGs). The fight itself is rather laid back compared to the other two, and even compared to Queen Spider and Kholer. The only real threat of death is standing in the AoEs and after the bosses armor goes back up he practically sits there while you charge up the other trap. Not sure if this is a bug or working as intended, but I’d say this boss gives the players ample time to coordinate and charge the traps. I agree pugs will do it slower than any coordinated group, but that should be expected with any dungeon mechanic.

DanteZero.9736:

Path 1, other the other hand, is just annoying because every pug I’ve been a part of (6 total) seems to fail at least 4-6 times at the graveling burrows section. If anything, I think the graveling hatchlings need to be toned down for this specific part.

This and Path 3 Lovers got a bit worse with the knockdowns on the hatchlings. I think if it were less of a DPS race it wouldn’t be as bad. Level 80s already chew through these with ease, so making lowering the HP of the mounds or something along that line for lower level players wouldn’t really make a noticeable difference for the 80s while giving the lower levels a little more leeway on the gear they have when entering these two events.

Knockdowns are definitely something that needs to get toned down.