Guild Wars 2

khani.4786:

Would it be possible to get the 3D image files for us to print on our own 3D printers should we have one? If not that’s fine and I understand.

Thanks Josh for everything you do. <3

I think those come with the file if you download it. I marked the checkbox to allow downloads, but I’ve never used that system, so I’m not sure how it works. If not, hit me up and I can get those to you.

There are two more days left in my give-away for a Super Adventure Box Beedog Lamp on my YouTube channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUtB6bks34s

But even if you don’t win, you can still build your own. I made the print available for anyone to order through Shapeways. You’ll need to get both the color parts, and the clear bauble part to build it. (You’re on your own if you want to wire it to light up, but my video should give you some good tips!) Here’s where you can order the parts: http://shpws.me/M3AR & http://shpws.me/M3AZ

The prices on Shapeways seem to vary a bit by the day, but I set it to zero dollars profit, so all the money you pay goes directly to the print allowing it to be as low cost for you as possible. If you have any questions let me know!

Chocolate chip with butterscotch chips are my favorite cookies. I mean, I didn’t come up with the character. I’m just say’n.

Gilgalas.7860:

You must also understand that fights such as the Marionnette one are meant as server events. The difficulty is set to an average level so that very skilled players compensate for lower skilled ones. This by itself should reinforce the community feeling as everyone can fit in. You would be right if the fight difficulty was set so high that it required to excluded lesser skilled players, but that is not the case for Marionnette.

That was the goal. To the extent that some still feel excluded, we did not perfectly reach it. We will continue to learn and iterate.

Gilgalas.7860:

Whatever efforts the developper put in, the game will always be only as good as the efforts you players are willing to put into building an enjoyable community.

Well this is true to a certain extent. But it really comes down to the mechanics to encourage cooperation and goodwill. An obvious example is the way we give XP for resing. The tricky part is that you often get mixed results from the same mechanic. For example, I was shocked when I first saw people harassing each other on my Mad King Clock Tower map. It made me feel terrible that something I created had fostered so much animosity. But then I heard from person after person that they had the opposite experience and had a blast chatting with people and making new friends as the shared challenge cemented their relationships. And with the Marionette I’ve played maps where there was some hostility, but more often people are cheering each other on. ( http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/01/30/now-playing-earning-a-hard-fought-victory-against-guild-wars-2s-twisted-marionette/ )

So yes, it IS up to a community to police itself to a certain extent, insofar as some behavior is condoned or encouraged in chat, and others are shunned and discouraged. But also, as a developer we’ve got to do our best to find creative solutions to make inclusion and friendship be the profitable way to play. That’s why reading the harsh critiques on forums like these is so important to us.

PowerGamer.2874:

As of this writing my server (which is designated as having “Very High” population on the world select screen) has beaten Marionette exactly ZERO times. Does anything else have to be said?

Nope. I hear you. We’ll take that sort of feedback into consideration when designing future open world boss events. We want to figure out ways to keep the events challenging while also providing enough direction to increase a server’s chance of success.

DiogoSilva.7089:

I believe that the problem with this event, and why it’s so difficult to finish it, is not the difficulty itself, but the very restricting victory conditions versus the nature of an open-world event.
No matter how many casual players become more skillful out of this, there will always exist a few randoms, who stumble upon or try the event for the first time, and compromise the entire server’s victory. This is because the event’s success is heavily tied to the weakest links – and all the other, better players can’t do much to prevent the situation.

I agree. This is the weakest part of the design. If I could go back in time I’d make sure our brilliant designers and content people had the time to make it so after you break a regulator you can /cheer to res the nearest downed player.

I don’t have time for more replies, but I’ll keep reading. Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Gene Archer.8560:

But players can put in all the hard work they can and still not break through to the next level. People have limits and thresholds.

I recognize this. I don’t expect every player, or even a majority to improve their skills. The hope is that ENOUGH of them will that we will be able to create more creative and nuanced content.

Gene Archer.8560:

Wish Anet would stop making raid content altogether.

Setting aside the misnomer, I’d just like to point out that if everyone had their wishes and Anet stopped making content that didn’t appeal to them, Anet could not make any content. The PvPers would negate the PvE, PvE negates WvW, WvW negates PvP, etc. Think of an MMO like a newspaper. Some people only read the comics. Some only want the sports page. Some like all the parts, but enjoy the local news the most, etc.

Gene Archer.8560:

But I still know where my limit is, and if this trend continues, I will be excluded from the new content, very soon.

Perhaps this is the root of your problem. You feel like we don’t want or like you. First of all, that’s not true. There is no trend to exclude any particular kind of player. Please look over the past year of LW releases. We’ve done so many different kinds of content specifically so that we can excite the various kinds of players out there. Out of the dozens of releases we’ve had two dedicated to open world bosses. We’ve done some WvW, some PvP, some Dungeons, some holidays, some JPs, etc. When I say I hope the overall player-base skill can be brought up, it’s not because all our future content will be uniformly more difficult. It’s just so that the stuff we are making for those who like to be challenged can be more complex and interesting. That should not exclude you any more than the occasional WvW, PvP or JP content would. I guess you consider that “muddled”. I consider it nicely diverse.

Zylonite.5913:

I play the game to have fun, not to become better at something….If something tries to change me then it means it does’t accept me as a player??? so is the GW2 player base not accepted within ANet’s walls that now we have to change?

Some people only have fun WHEN they are learning and displaying mastery of skill. If you are not like that, cool. No problem. We love and accept you just as you are. We made most of our game content for you! Don’t ever change. Seriously, there’s room for all of us here.

Kalarchis.8635:

ANet is spot on the money. PvE has been far too easy for far too long and it’s spoiled players into thinking that anything that requires effort = too much effort.

That’s not really the message I hope this kind of content sends. I don’t think anyone is “spoiled” for wanting to chill out and not be challenged in their virtual world. It’s their time off, I’m happy to help to provide that blissful state. My only concern is that we are not then obligated to create nothing but blissful relaxation. There’s enough room in Tyria for all kinds.

Ohoni.6057:

Nothing about the new content teaches players how to play better, it just requires that they DO play better,

That’s a fair point. Thanks. I’ll think about how to incorporate better direction in future content.

Minos.5168:

It’s not really fair to the rest of us decent players who are able to successfully clear our platforms EACH AND EVERY time, and then watch us fail overall because one or two platforms fail.

Yes. If I could change one thing it would be better support to under-performing platforms.

zenleto.6179:

I just thought I’d let you know that this is what has happened for me. I do know about traits but since I don’t run dungeons, or any other heavy group-based content that might exist, I’ve never needed to switch them out or change to a weapon that a particular character has never used for some particular skills or even just used different skills. I’m not sure it has increased my skill level but its definitely cleared the rust away and make me think a bit more.

That’s awesome! To the extent that it got you to stop and think after a defeat, and come up with alternate strategies… THAT is improving your skill. It’s not like we want everyone to magically get faster reflexes or become Nintendo Wizards. If we are limited to making content that has to be able to be rolled over by anyone without thinking, our events can only be reskinned versions of the same thing over and over. I hope that there are lots others like you.

Risingashes.8694:

Can I suggest a more focused training program for the individual for a future patch?

You’d need to make it essentially mandatory, either by rewards or locking Legendaries, level 80 or something behind it.

Have something that specifically teaches dodges, something that specifically requires trait swapping, something that specifically teaches positioning.

I really like this idea. Sounds like something that could be worked into the personal story. There’s a game I’ve been playing lately that does this really well called Desktop Dungeons. It’s makes learning the more advanced skills a puzzle game, so learning is fun and not a chore.

Gene Archer.8560:

High failure isn’t fun. Tension isn’t fun. Feeling hopelessness and dread because your server can never muster the numbers to have a shot at success isn’t fun. Feeling like you’re being forced to get better isn’t fun.
The moment you do any of this, it stops being a game and becomes a job. It becomes work.
That isn’t fun, period.

So there are many ways to categorize gamers, and one useful way is by looking at what they want out of a game. Here’s a really great video by my friend James Portnow on the subject of the aesthetics of games, and why people are drawn to certain types.

From what you’ve said, (Includeing: “All I want from a video game is a relaxing, entertaining ride.”) it appears that what you come to GW2 for is abnegation. You can skip to 7:25 to hear about it. But it essentially means that one wants to escape the real world to go to a relaxing comfortable place for a while. This is a core aesthetic of most MMOs, and GW2 is no exception. The vast majority of our content is PvE abnegation. We all love it. It’s the foundation from which the rest of our systems are built. However, being a diverse lot, we also have other aesthetics we want to pursue, and as a result we attract other kinds of players with other motives for playing. People who ENJOY some amount of tension, who want to learn. Who like to fail from time to time in order to challenge them to come up with new and creative strategies. This challenge and learning is the basis for most video games that have existed. In Mario if you don’t learn to jump when a Goomba walks up to you, you die. There is pleasure inherent in learning for most people if the context is correct. It sounds like you have a very specific idea of what contexts learning should occur, and don’t count your MMO playing time as one of them. And that’s totally cool. We want to appeal to you and others like you. That is why the vast majority of the game is designed the way it is. We don’t want our game to feel like work. We want people like you to find the process of expanding your skillset fun and exciting. And that’s why there is such a range of content. There are others who land further toward the challenge end of the spectrum than you, and we need to keep them engaged as well. No single person is going to find every piece of content we release a perfect fit for their gaming pleasure. I hope you can understand that it’s not malice or stupidity that keeps us from creating 100% of our content to fit your specific tastes, or that makes us want to expand the overall skillset of the player-base.

tl,dr: Not all content is going to appeal to all players. So we make a range.

StriderShinryu.6923:

I suppose what it boils down to with me is a question of why the content needs to be an elite level challenge in the first place. Would it really be all that bad if an average group of players could win?

Not at all. The Marionette was not designed to be beaten only by “elite” players. We have an idea of where the average player is skill-wise, and placed the bar where we hoped would just a tad above that, in the hopes that they would have to stretch a bit. That stretching creates tension, which is the sweet spot in event-type content as far as I’m concerned. (as opposed to the abnegation style smooth sailing content that most of an MMO needs to be.) Without the tension new things get boring faster. Too much tension, (as seems to be your case) and people give up and the content is wasted on them. That seems to be your argument about this event.

Because the player base is a diverse lot, ANY amount of tension will frustrate SOME amount, causing them to be turned off. So fundamentally we have to ask ourselves if we want to ever ask the player to stretch, or keep them all in a happy abnegated state of chillaxing. Does the benefit to those who want some tension from time to time outweigh the frustration of those who don’t?

The other question that I hope is answered in the positive is this: Can the average player skill be raised by challenging content like this? We know that X% of players don’t know about traits. We know Y% never swap out their 7-0 skills to accommodate specific challenges. And there are probably dozens of other systems that go unused by some portion of the player-base. If even 10% of that group hits a challenge like the Marionette and the subsequent tension causes them to look into these systems and they learn a new depth to the game they otherwise never would have, I think that’s a win for everybody. The average skill level rises, and in turn, we devs can make more interesting events that utilize the depth of the systems we have.

Having said all that, if after a week the Marionette is still only being beaten 1 out of 10 times, then I would say we may have tuned it a bit too difficult. On the other hand, we don’t know how long it takes for the aggregate skill level of the player-base to grow. I don’t know how long it takes for information about traits and builds to disseminate to those who had previously never looked into them. As with all our content, we are closely watching and noting these things so that every future project can learn from it.

P.S. Because several people brought up the idea of buffing the other platforms when one succeeds, I thought I ought to let you all know that this has always been the case. When one platform’s power regulator is destroyed the players on the platforms adjacent get Electrify Aura which gives 60 seconds of protection, swiftness, regeneration, fury, might, vigor and retaliation.

Wow. Nice to see all the time and thought I put into the details of the room are being noticed and appreciated! Thanks!

VincentDW.9376:

In fact, I really hope that the development team considers this for future encounters. Create situations that let players voluntarily take on extra risks and responsibilities commensurate with their skill level, without forcing new/less confident players into situations where they fear they will let down the team.

I like this!

In the never ending quest to improve our design and find ways to please as many people as possible we’re always digging into constructive criticism. We have not perfected the recipe for an open world boss event, probably because we’re pioneering new territory here.

As far as I can tell there are a couple challenges we are trying to overcome. First, we are trying to teach the community a new skill: self organization. And I’m happy to see that in the aggregate, they ARE learning. I’m sure as this process continues we will find better ways to accommodate the communication structures that will emerge.

Secondly, from both a technical and player-experience perspective, it’s best to break up zergs as much as possible. Thematically keeping everyone feeling like they are contributing to a common cause from multiple locations, and still feel heroic is an interesting challenge to balance. Always looking for new ideas on this issue!

Qaelyn.7612:

distribute players by parceling them out one platform at a time like a poker dealer rather than selecting platforms for them randomly? Really? As a programmer myself I was astonished when I found out that it was possible to have 5 on one platform and 1 on another. I mean, this is really basic stuff!

Having 5 on one platform and 1 on another could only be a very edge case requiring several people to drop out at the right moment. Our script does exactly what you said, poker dealer style.

Qaelyn.7612:

let people on platforms who have already completed help out with other platforms

We tried really hard to get this in. Every solution we came up with had technical constraints.

Qaelyn.7612:

lengthen the timers a bit

The timers and mob HP were balanced and rebalanced several times in an attempt to find a sweet spot that would ensure people couldn’t faceroll the event, but wasn’t so difficult that no one could do it. Everyone’s mileage will vary. And as with any group activity, virtual or real life, there is luck inherent in that. Some people hate that dynamic and some love it. If someone has an idea about how to ameliorate the inherent luck factor in group events, please speak up!

Qaelyn.7612:

make it easier for parties to be in the same overflow where there’s actually enough people to win

I know there are people working on various solutions to this problem.

Qaelyn.7612:

have the event scale in difficulty based on the number of players

It scales quite a bit. The more people there are in a lane will change the number of vets and champs that spawn, and the platform boss’s HP scales based on how many end up on the platform.

Hi everybody! Chris is encouraging a new era of developer/player interaction which I’m pretty excited about. So I’ll add my 2 cents to this thread. I don’t speak for all devs, but here’s what I personally would find most helpful…

Josh Foreman’s Tips for Constructive Feedback:

1. It’s most helpful if you state your request or actionable item at the top. Then your reasons below. This helps us find and reference your post, pass it around for discussion, etc.

2. Don’t assume the reason that things are the way they are due to developer incompetence, laziness, apathy, stubbornness, greed, selfishness, lust or any of the other deadly sins. There are other possibilities beside developer personal defects. “Just” changing one thing usually has ramifications on other things that are hard to anticipate. An MMO is an incredibly complex web of interdependencies, and tweaking any individual part runs the risk of breaking many other parts. That’s why we don’t typically jump to instant ‘fixes’ (even though it’s tempting!) and why things that seem like obvious problems can take a lot longer to address than many would intuitively think they should. There is no MAKE IT WORK button that we refuse to push out of spite. Even if that were the case, it just doesn’t make sense to insult the party you are requesting something from. In what part of the real world does that ever work? No one wants to ‘slap you in the face’ or make the game less fun. We love you guys, and are thrilled that people play our game!

3. Don’t assume that we can just rearrange resources to work on your particular issue. Most of our teams are very specialized. It takes a long time to build the experience necessary to be a good productive member of the PvP, Story, Systems, or any other team. Just because we have X programmers working on bug fixes and Y working on Gameplay improvements, doesn’t mean we can arbitrarily move those numbers around. It’s just not that simple.

4. Please stop calling us liars when we fail to implement something we intended to months ago, but for some technical, balance, or other reason found it to be untenable. We can’t be very open about our plans if every word we say is taken as a contractual obligation. Imagine if every word you said to your friends were recorded and played back at the most inopportune time in order to make you look like a fool. You’d probably clam up pretty quickly. Making an MMO, especially one as experimental as GW2 requires… experimenting. Requires making plans, following through, finding dead ends, back-tracking and trying something else. Sometimes that means that we will state a clear goal, test it internally and find out it just won’t work. The idea that this means we don’t have a clear vision is wrong. There is a difference between a core vision for our design principles, and the implementation of specific systems. We are very clear about the mountain we want to scale, but whether we do it in 4×4, on foot, with a grappling hook, or a hot air balloon are all contingent on the terrain we discover as we progress.

5. You are not “all players”. Please stop saying “Players want X” just because you want X. The fact is that players want X, Y, Z, and the rest of the alphabet, and most of those desires conflict with each other. And I guarantee you, anything that the vast majority of the players want, we (as players of our own game) also want. If you don’t understand why something the vast majority of players and the devs want is not implemented, see the above points 2-4. I have a people-pleaser mentality, so this is one of the hardest pills for me to swallow as a developer. I want EVERYONE to be happy. Unfortunately, the rules of the real world make that impossible.

So there you go. That’s my advice. I really believe that devs and players can work together in a healthy way. And this is my advice for making that a reality. Thanks for reading!

Orpheal.8263:

Look into the thread about Master of Spheres World 2, that either seems to be bugged

Hmm. Not sure which thread that is. But this problem should be fixed in tomorrow’s patch.

Rocky launch

Difficulty spikes

Inadequate rewards

Can’t farm

Also, I’m bad at the maths.

Just to refresh anyone new to the thread/topic: We accidentally made World 2 too difficult. We released a patch that helped as much as we could afford to risk mucking around with the Live game. We’re keeping tabs of all the feedback and incorporating that into any future releases. Thanks everybody!

It’s open through Sept. 30th.

Teutos.8620:

Personally there have been about ~10 locations where I preferred to use the dodge-jump. I’m not sure, what the design philosophy is behind the dodge-jump, and if you think this usage is legit or not. The jumps above the bell is one of the locations I think the dodge jump was really really helpful if not necessary.

The dodge jump is never necessary. Me and QA make sure we do all our test passes without it.

MagnusLL.8473:

Congrats on designing one of the most blatantly obvious (but still devious) money grabs I’ve ever seen implemented in an MMO cash shop.

Cranking the difficulty all the way up to “insane” for world 2 NORMAL mode, implementing an hard mode based on trial and error, reducing lives from 5 to 1, brutally reducing the amount of baubles with which you used to be able to buy continue coins, AND introducing the infinite continue coin which can only be purchased from the shop.

I’m assuming you already have the “real” world 2 normal mode ready to go live as soon as the bean counters think they’ve gotten enough money off all of this.

You’re brilliant, Josh. In a different way from what most of the people here are meaning it, but still brilliant

That’s not how things work here. I don’t tell the commerce team how to do their job and they don’t tell me how to do my job. My goal is to make a really fun and compelling experience for players. Insofar as W2 is not fun right now because of the crazy difficulty, that’s on me because I made some poor judgement calls. I lost the forest for the mechanic-trees. I liked this tree and this tree and this tree and this tree… and jammed them all in without taking the big picture in often enough, especially near the end when everything comes together and starts interacting in unpredictable ways. Last time we were just excited to get 8-bit UI, a bounce mushroom and turtles you could knock over for platforms. Now we have projectile enemies, ice, moving platforms, water spout platforms, spin flowers, push blocks, several cooperative puzzles, etc. Now I know next time to give the elements time to breathe, and go hands-off earlier, and if a last minute fix is required to make a new mechanic work (what happened to the water spouts that ended up making them terribad) it should be cut and saved for next time. These are the reasons World 2 is too hard. If the reason was to sell coins I would not be here and you would not see a huge suite of fixes we put together over the last couple of days come out tomorrow.

As to the Infinite Continue Coin I’ll repeat what I said several pages back. I think it’s a great item because it expands the number of people who can experience SAB. There’s probably a good-sized portion of players who don’t want to play it like a real stand-alone old-school game where you have to really learn the levels, find the secrets, earn the resources to get the power-ups etc. In that way it’s like a Game Genie. It also gives people who are really into SAB a chance to vote with their money and support future development.

We decided to do Tribulation Mode in the platform hell style back before we launched the first SAB. Before the idea of an ICC was ever thought up. It matches our personality and humor. We knew there would be people who were really really good at SAB and would wrack up huge numbers of extra lives, and thought Trib Mode would be a great way to spend them.

As to a ‘real’ World 2, that will have to wait for next release when we have time to make the major renovations necessary to put it in the proper context between Worlds 1 and 3. In the mean time, check out the changes we made and see if it’s more fun for you.

Congrats. I’ll keep that in mind when I put together TM for the next world.

Valmarius.4150:

I’d like Josh to gather points of view from places other than the forum before he decides to start hacking away at his work of art.

I’ve been developing games since ‘96. I’ve been around the block long enough to know that the forums are not the best place to get accurate readings of most player’s perceptions. The reason I’m adjusting the difficulty is 1. So much of it is from mechanics that surprised us with how poorly they perform out in the field. and 2. I never really felt good about how hard it was but didn’t get the confirmation of it until this thread. We’ve found ways to fix the major difficulty spikes in Infantile and Normal Modes, and we’ll do some more refining and maybe a systemic change (Making bottomless pits and dart traps reset you at the last waypoint with one heart removed.) by the time World 3 comes out.

Adamantium.3682:

It’s obvious from my above post I love SAB. I’ll make no apologies for that. I also believe there are legitimate problems and struggles people are having. There are some things that need adjustment, and some places where Josh was a little over zealous. I just don’t think you listed any of them.

Agreed. Good post. We are approaching the development of SAB as its own game (As Moto would) so if people don’t go into it with that mindset they will get frustrated. I’m open to suggestions about how we can communicate that better.

Eowin Of Rohan.2619:

when falling to the void , teleport the player to the last checkpoint, not decrementing a life (= back to the “no falling damage” concept, without having to redesign the entire maps)

We wanted to do this for the hot fix going out, (Well, actually taking one heart when you fall in a pit or hit the darts) but we’d have to get into the guts of the scripting and that’s too risky to put up in the Live game right now. But we’ll definitely try to do that for our next release to get World 2 to the right level of difficulty to fit in our full 1-4 Worlds difficulty curve.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

A good example of this is in World 1, right after the maze. There’s a rock right before the queen beedog, that you must jump on, and then on to a tree, to escape the area. And while it’s such a simple jump, I could be wasting many minutes just trying to get that simple jump. And it isn’t for my lack of skill, it just seems the collision is so dodgy. And those kinds of jumps are all over the later worlds. It’s not so much the length of the jump, but the height of it. It seems my character can often barely made it on top of the platform.

One thing you have to learn about how our jumping/collision works is that you can’t jump up against things and slide up and over the lip like any normal platformer. You need to start your jump further back. I know this is frustrating and if I had the power to change it I most certainly would. Along with making player’s collision match their body/size, and not hang out over the sides of things. As I’m trying to push the skill of jumping it means I’ve had to bring these wonky issues to the forefront. That’s unfortunate, but in my opinion it’s worth doing for the sake of more interesting jumping challenges.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I also noticed a couple of serious collision issues in Tribulation Mode. The large spiked floors do some really weird things, where they sometimes do not kill you (and you can run through them), and sometimes kill you when you’re not even touching them. It is as if something activates, and then repeatedly keeps killing you, no matter if you are touching the spikes or not. I was on a platform high above the spikes, and they still killed me, and continued killing me as I spawned. That’s clearly a bug.

These sounds like lag bugs.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There’s also a few stores in TM that spawn you into the lava as you exit. Is that intended?

No. Can you please describe or screen shot those places? I’d appreciate it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Difficulty wise, the only trouble I’ve really had is with the logs across the waterfall. That thing is extremely unforgiving, and it slows everything down.

I’ve added a safety spot that will be in the fix. It’s about 90% easier now.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And of course the dojo, with that blasted gong (But I guess Anything Goes…. right Josh?). Thanks for putting that in.The bit where you cover the arrowslits from four angles was clever, but I was often infuriated how the traps would shoot right through a block that was clearly obstructing the firing mechanism.

The gong temple has been tweaked so you only have to switch sides once and there’s plenty of time to do so. When you say the darts are going through the blocks are meaning while they move or when they are in place?

Draygo.9473:

It didn’t go to waste, though I think you learned a lesson in pacing.

Haha… I feel like Peter Jackson should about the last hour of Return of the King.

Aerlen.5326:

RvLeshrac.2673:

Johabi.4275:

Please don’t water down the SAB just because an extremely vocal group of people don’t like it. I love the grueling difficulty of it and have been having more fun in GW2 than I have in a long time. One of my favorite things about the Living Story events is that they don’t have to cater to every player since they come and go so fast. Not every living story event is for every player. I personally play every single one that involves a jumping puzzle, but I don’t really do much with the dungeons. It doesn’t bother me that the dungeons don’t cater to my specific tastes because 1, I enjoy the base game a lot, and 2, I know that there’s always more content right around the corner.

If you don’t like the SAB, just don’t play it. If you feel World 2 is too hard for you, just play World 1. Games are supposed to get harder as you go along, and the SAB should be no exception. I had a ton of trouble with World 2, but by the time I got through it, I had gotten really good at it. That feeling of mastery is so much more rewarding for gamers like me than any item or title – although those are nice too. (Please make a title for Tribulation Mode.)

The main thing I’m trying to say here though is please don’t make the SAB any less difficult. I honestly hope that World 3 is more challenging than World 2 too.

There’s a hard mode for people who want punishing difficulty. This thread has NOTHING to do with it. Your punishing difficulty is perfectly safe.

We’re requesting fixes to Normal, which should be Normal.

^^^^

In fact, I will defend TM until I’m blue in the face. This is about Normal being buggy and in need of fixes, no one wants to nerf TM!

Agreed. Fixes are incoming.

Puru.4217:

Question:

Would it be possible that instead of simply reducing the longevity of the next levels, you could divide them in two parts?

I’m thinking of just making a lot of alternate paths and more secrets. That way a casual player can run through the main path with ease and those who want tougher content can opt into it.

Chiara.9827:

I really wish there was a way to come back to our last checkpoint at will, without having to sacrifice a life. It could work just like waypoints do, maybe at the cost of a bauble. Will you think about that if it’s doable?

I like this idea a lot. I’ll look into the possibility. Would be a great Whistle song. But I’ve found that 90% of the things I want to do can’t be done in our engine. And as this thread is evidence, when we try to push the engine to do things it doesn’t like we end up a mess.

Chiara.9827:

The only other thing I didn’t like about zone 3 was the artificial difficulty of some jumps. … On one, you HAD TO stand on thin air to do it, and not just slightly, it was a matter of guessing how far over the rock you could go, the answer was totally out and then a little more.

The other one seemed like an impossible jump until I realized you had to jump on a tiiiiny little, little and very inclined slope just in front of you in order to make it possible. The issue here is it was so tiny and inclined the game still showed me as standing on the rock I was formerly, except that I was not and that bit of height made all the difference.

I’m trying to ease players into more difficult jumping. In the first case I want people to figure out that they can change direction while in the air. Yes, you can nudge yourself out into the air. Or just jump like normal, outward, then steer back in. Your second example is the first time I’ve included a sloped surface in the main path. They are all over the place, but this is the first time it’s mandatory. The point of doing this is to broaden the player’s horizon and possibility space. Teaching them to look more closely for ways to access secret areas and such. That being said, I’ve streamlined that room so most of the platforms are larger and falling won’t drop you all the way down in most cases.

In retrospect I should have put that first experience out in the open, by itself and prominent. I’ll probably add that in next time we have an SAB release. Thanks for the specific and clam critique.

Chiara.9827:

If I voice my disappointment on the lack of achievement in this thread will it be heard? Or I need to go somewhere else where the right person can see it?

I’ve been collecting all the feedback on this thread in a list of things to bring up next time we start on new SAB content. I’ll look into it.

Chiara.9827:

I know I wrote a lot but these are just little issues in the big picture and aside for them zone 3 was awesome, I really enjoyed the time spent in there
I’m afraid of what you may come up with for world 3 and 4 tho :p

Haha, thanks. It’s looking like W3 will be…. shorter. If anything I’ll do shorter primary paths and a lot more secret and alternate paths.

CommodoreSkippy.2657:

It’s really great to get so much direct Dev response. I am once again looking forward to new SAB content.

That said, I still would like to hear more about the decision to reward much fewer Baubles in World 2 than in World 1.

For those commenting on a lack of Baubles in W2, I “dug up” (wakka wakka!) the numbers.

World 1 Dig Baubles: 665
world 2 Dig Baubles 1560

Meriem.3504:

I have to admit I am disheartned that it isn’t made be solo even though we can try running it solo anyways. I actually thought it was meant to be solo since it bascially trying to recreate a lot of old single player games.

Running it with two people I think would be ok but with more then that it sours the concept of the world for me cause having more people takes away the vinatge feel and just makes it look like a weird dungeon rather then a retro return to the past.

I think the fewer players you have the more old-school simulator it is. Solo play gets close to the difficulty of a an 8-bit platformer where you have to learn the levels really well and plan ahead.

CommodoreSkippy.2657:

As far the owls that litter the World, do they need to be infinitely spawning? They aren’t difficult, just annoying. The owls add no additional challenge, they only serve to make the game less rewarding.

The owls are not what they seem.

Crise.9401:

Here is a suggestion, please create third mode… like infantile, but with the principle of “help on demand” rather than having it shoved in my face. Being someone who had 0 need for infantile mode before the notorious water sprouts in W2 Z1 I would really appreciate the ability to get helping hand when I hit a brick wall not have to choose to either go through the level on rails, or keep slamming my head against that wall.

Funny, I brought this idea up a couple weeks ago. I think I was told we couldn’t do it for some technical reason. I’ll ask again.

RvLeshrac.2673:

And then a dev claiming that the people complaining about the magical offset attack hitboxes are just crying when they meet the smallest amount of resistance, before finally buckling under the deluge and admitting that, yes, there are issues that need some work.

That seems like an odd interpretation of this:

Josh Foreman.8250:

You may be right. I think it’s too early to tell. Some number of people hit a little resistance and quit and come to complain about it. And some number hit that same resistance and are inspired to overcome it and they are in the game right now doing that. I don’t have a good sense of those numbers are right now. I’m more than happy to adjust it when I have better data to work from. Thanks for your feedback.

Or were you referring to something else I said?

TheZoobler.8073:

Josh Foreman.8250:

Smaller team, actually. And the length was my own desire to get as many ideas as I could in there. I spent several months pulling 16 hour days and a couple weeks where I did a couple 36 hour stretches, went home, slept and came back and did it again. No one else wanted me to do that. In fact those sort of crazy hours are discouraged at ArenaNet. I did that because I freeking love what I do and wanted this release to be the best thing ever. Turns out I pushed too hard to get those new mechanics in there and I’m being told here over and over that all that work was wasted and it’s making people miserable. I’ve learned my lesson. Won’t happen again! And for that, my family thanks you!

Now see, this is sad to read. I hate that anyone could spend so much time and put so much effort into something they love, only to be shrieked at by everyone and feel like it was “a waste”.

SAB is something special and forget anyone who can’t see it’s something that you’ve been absolutely dedicated to. W2 definitely needs some tweaks, but that’s all it is. Tweaks. Tweak it a bit, and it’ll be fun again, and we’ll all have a good time.

I’m sure MORE work is not what you were looking forward to, but it’s all that stands between this release and perfection.

As for everyone having a meltdown… maybe we should all relax for a little while, and go back to having fun after the tweaky-patch hits.

Hm. Let me specify, lest I be accused of whining. I meant all the EXTRA hours I poured in was wasted. I just put in too much stuff. I’m not crying here. I’m learning a lesson.

Airyll.7849:

Josh Foreman.8250:

*You may be right. I think it’s too early to tell. Some number of people hit a little resistance and quit and come to complain about it. And some number hit that same resistance and are inspired to overcome it and they are in the game right now doing that. I don’t have a good sense of those numbers are right now. I’m more than happy to adjust it when I have better data to work from. Thanks for your feedback.

You know, gonna be honest, this is a wee bit offensive.

After spending two hours of my time and losing fifty five lives in World 2 Zone 2, and not quitting because I wanted to beat SAB, I then came to World 2 Zone 3 and was met with the requirement of needing 400 baubles to buy the Torch which then also means I need to buy the wallet upgrade from the previous world (good thing I already had that!) and so I was forced to quit.

But you want to sit there and claim that people are angry at this ramp up in difficulty because they met a “little resistance” and then didn’t bother to overcome it?

I’m stunned.

No, really. I’m stunned.

I wouldn’t have quit if your SAB hadn’t been designed to force me to because I spent my baubles on getting continue coins so I could, you know, “overcome the resistance”.

Sorry to offend, but I think your offence is unwarranted. The reason I said ‘some’ is because I meant ‘not everyone’ You are clearly in that camp. You put in a lot of effort, therefore you are not in the group I was referencing. I think you’ll agree that there IS a group of SOME people who meet a little bit of resistance and give up, right? When this thread started yesterday morning and the content hadn’t been out more than a couple hours I had no idea how many people were in what group. 14 pages later I’m very clearly convinced that there’s a problem and I’m working very hard to fix it.

As an aside, there are several hundred baubles buried around the two Worlds, so getting those 400 was certainly possible. I don’t think you were completely blocked or forced to quit. But I understand that if you’re not having fun you won’t want to continue. So it’s on me to try to make it fun! Thanks for your feedback.

Lafiel.9372:

The biggest fail of this SAB is that it’s too long.

Lesson learned. I get it.

Lafiel.9372:

I guess the first one was successful because it was new, innovative and they wanted to get it right. Now when they made the second one, they’re just throw in a bigger team, a bigger budget and demand lengthier contents and say yup, that’s what players want. Like the say, the sequels are always crap until the next fresh reboot.

Smaller team, actually. And the length was my own desire to get as many ideas as I could in there. I spent several months pulling 16 hour days and a couple weeks where I did a couple 36 hour stretches, went home, slept and came back and did it again. No one else wanted me to do that. In fact those sort of crazy hours are discouraged at ArenaNet. I did that because I freeking love what I do and wanted this release to be the best thing ever. Turns out I pushed too hard to get those new mechanics in there and I’m being told here over and over that all that work was wasted and it’s making people miserable. I’ve learned my lesson. Won’t happen again! And for that, my family thanks you!

Arty.3261:

Having finished a run through yesterday, I found it challenging but greatly rewarding for getting past some sections. Never had issues with bugs or hitting targets. Get better at the game and enjoy challenging content for once. If you are not good enough to do it, please don’t ruin it for the people who can by begging for it to be changed.

To be fair to most of the people complaining, most of the complaints are about random difficulty that I did not design, due to our engine limitations. Those are bugs I have to either work around or get rid of the offending mechanic altogether. I’ve said that I like the difficulty of the enemies because those can be approached with strategy and forethought. Getting randomly knocked of a geyser and rag dolled hundreds of feet downstream is not something that strategy and forethought can help you with.

CommodoreSkippy.2657:

Rather than decreasing the Baubles earned, increasing the prices would have been a better solution. Yes, it’s artificial, but it’s about the FEEL of earning more.

I think you’re right about this and I’m going to see what I can do.

rfdarko.4639:

I want to document instances that seemed a little funky, and figure out if they were player error, a bug, or just a quirk that we have to live with.

That’s great. I appreciate it. I’m hoping at some point I can get it so there aren’t any major quirks that just have to be lived with. At least none under my control. Option A is to adjust the prominence of a quirky mechanic. Make more work arounds, keep them separated, etc. If that doesn’t work there’s always the nuclear option of just dropping the mechanic all together. Of course the more we do that the fewer old-school mechanics we can evoke. It’s a balancing act we haven’t mastered yet.

Draygo.9473:

My problems all stem from attempting it solo. Fighting assassins solo is a grinding experience. When I’m grouped up with guildies we can often kill them quickly, but when your fighting 2-3 of them alone its really hard to avoid taking damage.

It ends up being frustrating and tedious. With a group its much easier to deal with the assassin mobs.

This is as designed. Dungeons are designed for up to 5 people. If you choose to solo a dungeon you should expect this sort of thing. At leas that’s how I look at it. Maybe because SAB doesn’t look like a dungeon there are different expectations? We did clearly communicate when you enter a world that 5 are recommended.

StriderShinryu.6923:

it’s not like SABW2 isn’r fun. It really is more like certain design decisions are acting like a focused spotlight that’s shining far too brightly on what GW2 can’t do well as a platform game as opposed to illuminating what it can do well.

That’s a really great way of putting it. I think because we tried to get all our new ideas and mechanics in there it’s hard to find a way to blend them into an organic experience. That’s going to be my top priority for W3. I’ve revised W2 for a new patch soon, and once I’m back on SAB I’ll do more comprehensive reconstructive surgery on it to try to make that spot light less bright.

Bevian.8973:

Just did a rerun of W2Z2. The first time I did it took a long time and was frustrating and extremely challenging. However, the second time I’ve run it, no problem.
People complaining about enemies are probably not paying attention seeing as you can see most of them a mile off. Learning the correct tactic to taking them down is vital in staying alive and they are EASY (Dodge assassin attack, whip, 2 hits, dodge, 1 hit) against 2 foes you can do the same and even bait their attacks and side step at the last moment. Ranged assassins are even easier once you have the old glove of wisdom.
The puzzles rooms are still difficult (block room/gong room) but it’s a matter of paying attention to your surroundings and making sure the area is clear before attempting anything.

This is the kind of thing I was hoping to see more of. Tactical strategy. Stopping, observing, thinking, trying different plans, etc. Those are the memories I like most about old games. So while we’re going to be addressing the difficulty spikes related to jumping, check points, and water, I don’t want to adjust the enemies. I think people learn how to deal with them as demonstrated above.

Mirta.5029:

I re-ran some levels today, took me 3 hours again and 15 continue coins even though I knew what I was doing. Decided to photograph the perfectly visible clouds on a LED screen. It’s even worse on my BFs screen. The only way to get around invisible clouds is to turn gama to the lowest, but then the arrow traps are invisible. So I present to you the photo of “there are clouds out there!”

I’m putting in a rocky background there as part of a fix.

rfdarko.4639:

To further illustrate the point : http://youtu.be/J9-aUFHIt7c

It’s not difficulty, it’s not even lag, it’s terrible detection. If Josh can watch this and claim everything is fine with the hit detection and the player was at fault in each case, then I really don’t know what to say.

No. That is clearly a terrible experience. Something is obviously terribly wrong there. If I saw anything like this during testing we would have reworked everything. I’ve never claimed anywhere that anyone’s poor experience is because it’s the player’s fault. I don’t think that way. I like to make people happy, believe it or not.

Is this issue (dying randomly and getting pushed off rocks constantly) happening to you? If so, is it happening as frequently as this video shows? If this is anything more than an edge case than we have a serious problem that will necessitate some serious solution. Thanks for pointing it out.

Thedenofsin.7340:

I’m really curious if SAB was thoroughly tested with a Norn or big Charr. In fact, I think it would make sense to exclude Asura during the testing process. SAB is significantly easier when run through using an Asura.

Sadly that is the case with all jumping puzzles. Our QA embed plays as the largest fattest Norn possible with the crazy giant shoulder spikes. Generally when I test my JPs I rotate between all the races, and near the end I usually play as a giant Charr.

Aerlen.5326:

my old NES cart still has my original saves though I’m real sure the battery will die shortly.

That’s amazing. I remember reading the instruction manual as a kid and seeing that the battery life was supposed to be 5 years and being worried about losing my saves!

Epicrandom.5817:

Hey Josh, I’ve been following this thread for quite a while and I thought you might like some feedback.

Thanks for the quality feedback. I agree with most of what you say. One problem I’m realizing now is that when I first built 2-2 it was not a long level. I never changed the layout, but as we had more and more ideas for new mechanics they kept getting packed into that space. (and subsequently meant a bunch of 36 hour days for me and Lisa!) I’ve now come up with the ultimate idea: The Anti-Idea Helmet. (Please don’t steal this idea, I want to patent it.) It’s a helmet that the each member of the SAB team is given. Like a construction helmet, but it’s got brain reading electrodes or what-have-you that can sense when you start to get creative. At that point a spring loaded mallet pivots down from its mount on the top/front of the helmet, smacking you in the forehead, discouraging new ideas. With this invention I can guarantee that the next release for SAB will be shorter, less dense, and have fewer new mechanics. (and the subsequent bugs that accompany them)

Electro.4173:

Just that it’d be a nice convenience and its a shame it can’t be done, if I’m indeed reading into that correctly.

You’re reading it right. Can’t be done. Wish it could be.

Aerlen.5326:

Really? I accept that challenge. I play Zelda 1 100% through every November, takes me 6 hours. Game on. The last dungeon dungeon in Zelda 1 doesn’t require perscision perfect jumping for one thing and by then, you have a full complement of hearts plus a red potion plus the vest which cuts damage and the best sword in the game. I can clear that dungeon in 15 minutes tops, how does that even compare to laggy design, instant death, cheap enemies, messed up hit boxes, pixel perfect jumping and the heck I’ve heard others going through?

I will find a group to play world 2 with and we shall see if I clear it in under an hour then.

Awesome. You play through every year? That’s still my favorite game. It’s responsible for my career. I’m working on a re-make with my own high res graphics. Here’s some of the sculptures I’ve done for it so far.
http://scrybe.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24

As to my challenge…. all I know is that I run through SAB over and over constantly and find it very easy. But like I told someone above, I’m very used to the engine problems like camera, lag, weird hit detection, etc so I hardly notice them and have developed strategies for getting through the levels without running into most of the problems described by most. And I’m not a super great jumper. I don’t find the “pixel perfect jumps” accusations to be accurate at all. But I know last time I played through LoZ it took a long, loooong time. And some of those later dungeons were BRUTAL. The rooms with 8 darknuts you can only hit in the back? That seems WAY harder to me than SAB. But I see where you’re coming from. You’re super familiar with LoZ. I’m super familiar with SAB. I’m sure that plays into both our perceptions.