Guild Wars 2

rfdarko.4639:

Let me describe 2 specific instances in zone one where I feel a mechanic did not fit with normal mode.

At the geysers, if you are jumping off one as it disappears, it will knock you back mid air. For a long time, I thought it was the flying fish that I just couldn’t see, but after 20 or so tries, I figures out what the real issue was. Even after that getting the timing right felt really random. Something this unituitive i only expected to find in tribulation mode. If you could make it so the only time you get knocked back was when you hit the “groundlevel” water, not mid air as the geyser disappears, I believe that would eliviate most of the frustration with this part of zone one.

Second, the flowers. Specifically the one right before the final boss. I only died twice to the boss himself, both of those were simply learning that I couldn’t single dodge through his lazers – fair enough. I died at least 10 times to the flowers – jumping very consistanly, but being thrown too far or too short. I remember there was some to-do when this mechanic was introduced in the aetherblade jumping puzzle, and I was surprised to see it here. It’s an interesting idea, but any amount of lag makes it unbelievably frustrating. I don’t know if it will ever work well in this game engine.

Overall I enjoyed zone one, but those two aspects specifically really colored the experience for me.

Those are both getting changed soon. Thanks for the specific and calm feedback.

StriderShinryu.6923:

especially since Josh did seem to initially think the complaint (particularly about the size of the levels) was a complaint about the amount of content.

Yeah, I was too flippant in my response to that. Having read every post on this thread I understand what the real issue is. Personally I love long epic slogs. Long movies, long songs, long levels. I felt like I was going the extra mile making these levels so huge. I spent SO many all-nighters crafting these levels… and then I’m told it’s too much. Hahaha…. oh… …

Anyway, I get it now. Not everyone can dedicate the time and energy to this scale of epic. However, as a caveat, I will say that once people find the dig spots and Shorcut Eagle they will be able to tailor their experience in 2-2 quite a bit more.

StriderShinryu.6923:

Each level is very long, especially on first run, with no real way to hop out and come back later mid level. I realize that, sure, in old school games there often wasn’t a save mechanism at all but that’s one aspect of design that has certainly improved over the decades.

The way things work in SAB is, like the engine compromises, are not the way I would design this thing if it wasn’t part of GW2. There are so many issues that come with building this in an MMO, the amount of logistics we have to deal with is a nightmare. I would love nothing more than to let you go back to your last check point.

StriderShinryu.6923:

At the same time, however, I wouldn’t want to lose the vastness of how the stages actually feel so I can’t really advocate something like breaking the existing stages up into 2-1 through 2-6 instead of 2-3 through 2-3 (or just opting for smaller/shorter levels next time around).

I feel the same way.

StriderShinryu.6923:

My personal recommendation would be a revision of the checkpoint system to include hard checkpoints like we have now and soft checkpoints sort of like what is in the Tribultion Mode. Have soft checkpoints in places right before or after notably tough sections,

Interesting idea.

butch.8136:

Reading the comments, I"m afraid it’ll get dumbed down. World 2 has a steeper learning curve, but it’s fun. It took me 5 hours to complete both zone 1 and 2. I’ll be able to do it much faster as I know what I need to get from shops and know the zones.

Please don’t nerf it. Fix the bugs and it’ll be better already.

Here’s the thing. Most of the difficulty being reported is not designer intent. It’s the tricks we’re doing to try to simulate old games. Moving platforms, conveyor belts (that what we WANTED the rapids to be like) etc. They are all wonky work-arounds we are doing to fool our MMO engine into acting like a platform engine. So that KIND of difficulty is NOT the kind of difficulty I want in SAB. As a designer I want to be the one to determine what’s hard. Not an engine freaking out because we’re manipulating it into doing things it was never intended to do. Most of the fixes I am working on involve removing the elements that just aren’t reliable enough. We’re flying a little too close to the sun and the wax on our wings is melting. So we need to find a lower altitude I guess.

rekim.5296:

The difficulty leap, in the curve was totally crazy. It doesn’t feel like a World 2, at all, to me, it feels like another game entirely, or a final world.

You are right. I agree. It was unintentional. We’re working on a fix.

rekim.5296:

Firstly, I’d like to talk about Area 1. The lack of music was disturbing, but not really had any impact on gameplay.

This is a bug we are trying to track down. Do you happen to know what your audio settings are at?

rekim.5296:

My next concern is about the croc’s and turtle’kittenboxes. Back then, the river area didn’t caused much problems to me. Nowaday, I just can’t seem to reach most of theirs.

It’s interesting, because I added about 50 new rocks to make hitting these guys easier. We made their hit-boxes almost 4 times bigger. If you look at the Crocodiles hit-box you could fit three of them inside it. Refer to to my post above about how we have to compromise how we would LIKE to make things, with what our engine is being tricked into doing. I’ll add even more rocks.

rekim.5296:

The only way I can think of getting the achievement, now, would be to be a five man party and praying not to be the focus of the assassins’ wrath… This is not a very staisfying way to get an achievement, to me.

Try whipping the first assassin and keeping him stun-locked the whole ride. No more will spawn.

Thanks for your feedback.

Assassin X.8573:

sofar these devs have been nothing but rude kittenbags to the playerbase. Great customer service you have going on here

Howso? I apologize if I’ve come off as rude. I was using the ‘protip’ line a couple times, but I apologized for that and explained that I forgot it’s used to insult people. I was actually trying to be funny and reference the era of gaming SAB is referencing. I really do appreciate the feedback I’m getting here and want to encourage people to share their opinions. That’s how I grow as a designer.

The feedback I like the least is the accusations that I’m basically trying to sell stuff. Since it’s not true it’s not helpful to me. But stuff about difficulty spikes, specific mechanics problems, etc. Those are very helpful.

Monkey Fritz.9052:

W1 was a fun, colorful lighthearted and challenging homage. W2 could be but isn’t.
W2 suffers from the “Lets make it as hard as we remember those games being when we were five and sucked at playing video games.”

I’ve said it several times in this thread so far but I’ll keep repeating it since I don’t expect anyone to read the whole thing. The design intent was NOT to make Normal Mode as hard as it is. There are a combination of factors that are making it so, and we’re currently working on a fix. We want W2 Normal Mode to be slightly more challenging than W1. There are several obvious difficulty spikes that we are addressing by adding check points, removing the buggy waterspouts, making dart traps easier to spot, removing some of them, etc.

All the complaints about the randomness of the rapids, floaty platforming, camera issues, etc. are things I would literally pay a thousand dollars to fix. Maybe even two. I’d cut my salary if we had a way to fix them. We hate them as much as you do. We simply accept the pain of these engine limitations because we feel like the overall content is worth it. I totally understand if other’s find them too annoying to be able to enjoy the content.
I said earlier, we have a great engine for GW2. But making it do platforming stuff is like getting a powerful heavy elephant to win a horse race. It’s not always pretty. Finding the sweet spot between pushing the boundaries of the engine to create new old-school mechanics and keeping the gameplay perfectly smooth is a constant game of compromise. I’m not claiming we’re perfect at it. But we’re trying. Check back after we get the changes in and see if we addressed most of the difficulty spikes.
I’m really appreciative to have this interchange with you guys. Some of your ideas are going directly into our fix. Though most of the warranted complaints are just a limitation of what we can and can’t do with our engine. (Like making the dart traps knock back instead of kill. That was our initial intent, but there’s no way to make it work.)

CryxTryx.9208:

Would a developer want and benefit from a ‘first time play through’ from a real players? Recorded like a stream.

I value all feedback. We do have several layers of testing that go on throughout the process. We have alphas all over the world who give us forum feedback, we have regular design reviews with Mike Z, Izzy, Colin, etc. There were several revision they requested to knock the difficulty back in several areas, which we did. But apparently we made them 5 easier when they should have been 20 easier.

I personally watched a lot of people play through their first time, but apparently those folks were better than average. Also, we did a fix to the waterspouts late in the process that ended up making a worst bug (getting KB when they go down) so I didn’t get to see people play through that till it was too late. But We’ll get a hot fix in to address the difficult sections soon.

Ohoni.6057:

or place a one-up right after it, to say “yeah, we straight up killed you, we owe you one, here you go.”

Hm. I like the 1-up idea a lot.

StriderShinryu.6923:

I’m guessing that you’re just using the term “jumping” as an umbrella for the entire SAB experience here. As many posters in this thread have stated, the problems don’t necessarily revolve around “jumping,” it’s more about the larger problems with design and the engine. Being really good at jumping in and of itself won’t help you with most of the complaints players are bringing forward with SAB World 2.

Yes. That’s exactly correct, Strider. We are so used to the quirks of the engine, camera, etc. that they become almost invisible. I’m not trying to brag with that statement you quoted. Thanks for helping me articulate it better.

Coldin.2840:

Josh, you did make a couple comments about slowly introducing some new mechanics throughout the levels. While I think that works fine in the case of the rapids (though the rapids themselves are buggy), this doesn’t work very well for things like the deathly piranhas and poison darts. Namely, there’s just not much warning about these things and what they will do till you die to one. If the first time I walked into poison darts it just took away a heart, that would serve the purpose of telling me those things are dangerous. When the darts one shot me, I’m quickly sent back to the checkpoint wondering what happened. Perhaps the lesson is taught, but it’s like teaching the lesson while rapping my knuckles with a rule. It’s just not enjoyable.

These are good points, Coldin. Those two examples do teach you through death. The pool possibly. (Many people can tell to stay away since they recognize the deadly piranha in it) and the Darts certainly. The reason I opted for instant death with the darts is because I wanted absolute consistency that they are kill planes because they are fundamental as blockers further in the level. This is a case of breaking a basic design rule in order to accommodate a larger vision. Like a film director breaking the 180 rule or a painter purposefully ruining perspective or composition for effect. The instant death to teach a mechanic was pretty common in 8 and 16 bit games, and while I’m not trying to slavishly copy their mechanics, I like to make a gesture towards them in various ways. Anyway, that was my thinking behind that. Feel free to be unconvinced that it was a good design choice.

Sorin.4310:

If anyone has any advice on the ninjas I welcome it.

Learning where they are so you aren’t ambushed is the first step. Pulling them away from others, jumping to floors/platforms they can’t reach for a breather. Whip. And when I get desperate I’ll snipe them with slingshot or bombs. Those are the things I’ve learned so far.

Ohoni.6057:

. Part of my problem with it comes from not personally enjoying “ha, you failed, now do better next time” Battletoads gameplay,

And I didn’t intend Normal Mode to feel that way. I’m working on a strategy to fix that now.

Ohoni.6057:

The other problem may be related to lag, and if so, you really need to figure out a way to test that, maybe test on the European servers or something, and if it isn’t working, fix it until it is.

We have ways to test with lag. But I think the problems people are running into on the water spouts is a different issue. We had to fix a problem where you can float in the air if you stand still when the water drops, but to do that we had to do a little knock back when it drops. That came in late so I don’t think we caught it. Will find a fix.

The basic problems so many are complaining about (hard to hit turtles/crocs, rapids, water spouts, etc.) stem from the fact that we are trying to get an MMO engine to do platformy things. Our engine is great for MMO content. But SAB is sort of like training a powerful but slow elephant to win a horse race. We’re always pushing the boundaries, and often get promising results that with some further iteration will bring cool things into GW2. But as is, we have to make a lot of compromises with the elephant to get it to run around our track.

DarksunG.9537:

I think you have misinterpreted what made SAB fun. It’s not the hair ripping “OG hard-coreness” it was cute fun puzzles with occasional tough jumping at a pace you can enjoy.

Well I don’t expect anyone to read this whole thread at this point so I won’t fault you for not having read the 20 times I’ve said I didn’t intend Normal Mode to be as hard as it appears to be to average players.

As to the pacing issue. What made you feel rushed? Is it the length of the levels? Or do you just mean specific timed puzzles like the rolling gong?

Cliff.8679:

My feeling is, I don’t necessarily think nerfing the difficulty of World 2 is absolutely needed, and that this isn’t the disaster that many impatient players are proclaiming. However, based on what you’ve said about your intention for Normal mode, it might be a good idea to tone down some of the more difficult areas. Especially if the difficulty is going to continue ramping up in worlds 3 and 4.

Overall, I’m really impressed with how well you’ve designed SAB. It’s difficult, but it’s fun, and the sense of accomplishment you were going for is certainly there. I’m planning on finishing World 2 this week, and I’m looking forward to having a horrible, horrible weekend trying to make it through Tribulation Mode!

Thanks Cliff. Good feedback. It’s very helpful to have people who enjoy it, beat it, replay it, and STILL confirm that the difficulty still spikes.

CryxTryx.9208:

Fair enough, but you have also made infantile mode for the players that don’t want a challenge.

I want Normal Mode to be squarely in-between Infantile and Tribulation. Right now it’s leaning too far to the Tribulation.

neon.4863:

The mindset that something seemed to be fairly easy for some players and so it needs to be made more difficult will only eventually lead to content that’s so difficult that only a tiny fraction of players will be able to complete it. But complete it they will, and some of them in a day.

I don’t think I’m of that mindset. My only goal was to make a World 2 that felt appropriately more challenging than World 1. Like Sonic or Mario’s World 2. When I said I wanted it to have a longer learning curve I meant in terms of exploration and discovery. One of the reasons the levels are as long as they are.

neon.4863:

Basically it’s a ton of elements, and they’re all pretty much thrown at you simultaneously, rather than introduced slowly with each level.

Hm. That makes me sad panda because of how hard I worked to make sure I was introducing the elements in gradual stages.

First rapid you see is off to the side. Second can be crossed by a bridge. NPC gives you hint about rapids. THEN you actually have to navigate rapids.

First piranha pool kills you if you jump in it. Next ones have the piranha jumping out. THEN you have to clobber the ones that land on the ground.

First dart trap is on a very simple piece of architecture, very close to a check point. Second one also close to a check point in a slightly more complex area, etc.

First push block goes from A to B allows you access to higher area. Next one lets you jump over darts. Next ones are a dependency puzzle to block darts.

Etc.

neon.4863:

I know you probably meant it for it to be fun, and I appreciate the effort, but perhaps some of these mechanics are best saved for world 4 (or the end of world 3).

So too much stuff. That’s interesting. I’ll ponder.

Dan.8709:

I don’t have the time to read the whole thread atm, so sorry for that.

Had anyone got this weird bug where SAB would kick you out after dropping a fish?
I FINALLY was getting at the end of the second level of world 2, I believe since it was a really long while, I was on the dojo puzzle where I have to put fish on the thing, the second one, I died some good times and was finally getting the fish into the thing, then I dropped it to reset the one time it can… and It kicked me out.

Maybe, maybe maybe my mouse went nuts and I clicked on leave instance, but I wasn’t even pressing it at the time. :|

Really sucked to lose all those hours inside it haha, but eh.
I also got two DCs during rapids…

Josh, would there be anyway to reenter where we stopped after a dc or something?
In world 1 was ok, but world 2 the levels are so much bigger it gets painful.

That’s terrible. I’m guessing the fish thing was a coincidence. I really wish there was a way we could detect disconnect as opposed to exploit. Sorry.

SonicTHI.3217:

You need to either split up the zone into 2 or shorten it.

Shortcut Eagle. Find him.

CryxTryx.9208:

P.S Josh, it scares and saddens me a little when the content has not been out for 24 hours and you are already saying you might have made it more difficult then you intended.

Any time now people will be competing with youtube speed runs of this content. Hold on tight.

I had a gut feeling going in that it was. But since I wasn’t hearing it confirmed by QA or alphas I let it go. So the main reason I’m paying so much attention to this thread is because I suspected there was a problem to begin with. I really, really don’t want to alienate a ton of players by making them miserable and frustrated. We made a whole mode for people who like that sort of thing!

fungihoujo.8476:

This feels like you’ve made every difficulty mode into tribulation mode for no reason.

There are reasons for everything. In this case I think I simply miscalculated the average jumping skill. I’m working on fixing it. Nothing nefarious here. Just a mistake I’m working on correcting.

Aerlen.5326:

Then please don’t say “I wanted a life to be valuable like in X” when “X” treated lives entirely different.

Sorry I must not have been clear enough. Here is the context again:

Josh Foreman.8250:

Mirta.5029:

I would prefer us to be able to find those baubles as we go trough World 2, instead of getting to World 2 Zone 3, seeing that we can’t continue without a torch, having to exit the instance, farm in World 1, then enter World 2 Zone 3 and do it all again from the beginning. With levels being as long as they are, it just feels a tiny bit tedious.

I guess I would liken that to Metroid. Where you could zip along to the Mother Brain and get totally wiped out. Whereas if you dug around, found the secret health tanks, then it gets a lot more reasonable.

The “that” I’m referring to is power-ups, not lives. I don’t believe Mirta was talking about lives, but about having to go through what they consider tedium to find and purchase power-ups.

Aerlen.5326:

I’m going to try SAB but I’m hoping for a challenge more on the level of NES Zelda and Super Mario Brothers 2. I may not be a complete “noob” but I have always really hated games that punish you for even trying =/

Well I would challenge anyone who thinks SAB W2 is harder than Zelda 1 to beat the last couple of dungeons! Zelda is WAY harder. Even so, I certainly don’t want to punish anyone for playing anything I make. Quite the opposite. I really, truly, honestly only want to make people have fun when they play my content. Some people have fun with brutal instant kill stuff like Tribulation Mode. But Normal Mode should not feel like that.

Thanks for the kind words, Crazylegs.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

1. Bauble Counter/Kill all/Destroy All

Many mentioned this in 1.0. We now have achievements that require players to kill/find/destroy an undetermined number of things, but absolutely no way of knowing ones progress.

Yeah, I remember Lisa was looking into a way to do this. I can’t remember why it didn’t happen. I’m assuming because it would require programming support we don’t have available to our team right now. I’ll follow up with her.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

The problem is that SAB (and GW2) are not the only things going on in my life.
I realize this may not be in your control, but I feel that if the SAB isn’t going to be permanent, this needs to be considered.

Well if your problem is that you have other things going on in your life, maybe stop using deodorant or brushing your teeth and a lot of those distractions would leave eventually. But as to the time restriction… I guess because I don’t know the future, whether this will ever be a permanent thing in GW2, I’m just designing with the best hopes that it will be.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

I realize that you have a difficult situation in which you want to make interesting levels, but are constantly dealing with varying levels of latency/lag.

Wow. That sums it up perfectly.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

My advice is try and design multiple solutions whenever you add in a mechanic that could fail.
If I can take a longer route, but bypass potential issues, at least I have a fighting chance. The SAB is difficult enough without having to deal with fighting the game.

I’m not sure how to do that without completely trivializing the cool mechanics. I wish we had a lag detector that could activate draw bridges! I’ll roll your idea around in my noodle for a while.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

My girlfriend and I actually have a piece of paper on our desk with a “WTH Josh?!” tally for every time we curse your name. So far we have well over 30 ticks (most are with a smile). I want to thank you again for being so open and involved in the process.

Clearly you haven’t tried Tribulation Mode, or that would be a WTF Josh?!!!!11 list.

Kojiden.8405:

This is the area that I can’t get past currently. It’s right after a checkpoint. I can get close to the waterfall near the end but I keep getting flung all over the place all the time. If I make any mistake it’s pretty much instant death because it’s so hard to get out of the water. I feel like I’m playing tribulation mode right now. I guess it’s a good thing I got the infinite continue coin. It doesn’t help that it feels so cramped and there’s so much stuff going on.

Ok. Thanks! It’s amazing how much I’ve reduced the difficulty of Piranha bend over the last week or so. Sounds like it needs a more radical solution.

minbariguy.7504:

I wish it felt that way, but playing under the ticking clock of Living Story is certainly not relaxing or stress-free to me

Mm. Yeah, I see what you mean. Depending on your personality, how much of a completionist you are, that could be that way. I guess I was just referring to the general, 1-80 leveling, exploring, etc. There are plenty of exciting things in there, but overall we keep it pretty casual friendly.

Ben.2685:

How is dying to an unforeseen, unpredictable pit, “throwing lives away”?

Do you mean being knocked into a pit by an unpredictable enemy? We might be seeing two different things in our mind’s eye here. I would say, that like Ninja Gaiden or Mega Man which are full of bottomless pits and unpredictable enemies, the fun comes in learning to predict the enemies and creatively designing countermeasures. Finding the perfect platform to bomb them from or run around them, etc.

Ben.2685:

If you want tension, then why isn’t 1 life the default?

It’s only one life if you leave and come back. Just like a Final Fantasy dungeon run or boss fight, part of the process is planning ahead, stocking up on what you’ll need. In the case of SAB, it’s looking for dig spots and other lucrative opportunities.

Oh wait. I misread your question. The reason 1 life is not default is because there has to be a balance. Tension has to be balanced with catharsis. That balance is different for everybody. That’s why we made 3 different modes.

Ben.2685:

If it’s to stop people from leaving then returning at the end with their group, why does it affect single player and tribulation mode then, in which such an exploit is impossible?

I’m not the one who does the crazy-complicated scripting, but my understanding is that we don’t have a way to fool-proof it so it couldn’t be exploited with the way our party/instance system works.

Ben.2685:

How do lives have value when you can essentially purchase an unlimited supply of them from the gem store? Doesn’t this mean the gem store item detracts from the fun of the SAB?

That’s not my domain. My only comment would be that at least it’s like the Game Genie. My friend bought one and kept showing me all the cool tricks he could do. I tried it a couple times, but even as a kid I wanted to play as the designer intended. I was hoping to tune normal mode so that a skilled and knowledgable player would not really feel a need for an Infinite Continue Coin. But I recognize that not everyone has a passion to play SAB like it’s a stand alone experience. So having the convenience to just pop in, do what they want without thinking ahead, and pop out keeps the appeal broad, and I’m all for that. If 20% more people play SAB because the Infinite Continue Coin exists, that’s 20% more people having fun in my content, so I won’t complain.

Ben.2685:

What fun is there in the limiting of baubles to the extent that it’s difficult to afford anything beyond living?

I think once you’ve learned (knowing is half the battle) more of the secrets of W2 you won’t be scraping the bottom of your wallet any more.

Ben.2685:

Thanks for actually responding to people’s criticisms/ annoyances, too.

Hey man, I’m just happy anyone cares enough to play and talk about it. I’m passionate about design and I learn a whole lot more by listening and interacting than I would if stayed in my own head. Thanks for the feedback. Sincerely.

Aerlen.5326:

Seriously, what versions of these games are you playing?

We all have a broad range of experience with Atari – current games. I cut my teeth on NES Zelda, Metroid, Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden et all. When I reference one of these games I’m not saying “SAB is exactly like this game in every way.” SAB is a homage to ERA of games, not a single game or genre. SAB is LIKE Metroid in a couple ways. Like Ninja Gaiden in a couple ways, like Mega Man in a couple ways. We have items in shops you have to buy to progress like Zelda, we have instant kill spikes and pits like Mega Man and Ninja Gaiden. You can point to all the classic games that do things differently and say “See, that’s how you SHOULD do it.” The we we DID do it is based on the unique chemistry of our team and what we liked in old games and what we wanted to experience. Your milage may vary.

NightZero.9425:

I hate to say it but it seems like the whole purpose of the SAB difficulty is to get players to buy infinite coins.

Good to know that impression is out there. If it were true I wouldn’t be here interacting and actively working to make W2 easier and fun for normal players. Thanks for the feedback.

Puru.4217:

Only did full W2S1 in normal mode, W1S1 in tribulation and the whole W2 in infantile.

W1S1 Tribulation:
-Not going to comment much, if IWBTG, Cat Mario or Rick Dangerous was the goal then it’s pretty much well done. Thanks for the challenge.

W2S1 Normal:
-Difficulty in comparison to W1 in it’s globality is really higher, personally it’s a good thing for me but i can see why people would get frustrated.
-Not only is it insanly harder but it’s also longer, from infantile this seems to be the case for all stages. While i don’t think it will be much of an issue in normal mode (and if anything it is good, more content as you said), in tribulation mode it will probably be hell.
-The rapid part which ends with a jump inside the waterfall was frustrating, i will try it again when i go for full secret + baubles but it didn’t felt as precise as the rest of the game, i don’t know if it’s lag or bad plateforming (or me which simply sucked, it’s a possibility after all). What i’m sure is that i’d rather be one shotted when failing a jump , being knockbacked constantly while hoping to get out made me want to punch some baby seals.
-No camera issue, no precision issue if you exclude the rapid part.
-Overall it left me a good impression, i think it might need a nerf for the average player though, sadly…

Infantile mode:
-Well it’s easy as can be as designed but… i have to do it again because i didn’t got all the achievement steps. Tip: when reaching a checkpoint go back and enter the checkpoint at foot, do not fly above it else you’ll get ripped off.
-Thanks god i add enough baubles to buy the torch, imo it should have been given after a fight/puzzle or something, being stuck because you don’t have enough ressources feels bad.

After i’m done with W2 normal as a whole + all secrets i’ll try to give another feedback.

Great feedback. Thanks!

minbariguy.7504:

Josh Foreman.8250:

I wanted W2 to have a longer learning curve.

Forgive me for asking this, but…why?

The first SAB seemed to be really popular, and it was clear that people were for the most part really enjoying themselves with the established difficulty/time to master.

I ask because it seems to be a recurring theme with content design in this game.:

“We wanted this to be more challenging…”
“We expect that only a small portion of the player base will complete this…”
etc., etc., etc.

As someone earlier in this thread mentioned, “Frustration =/= Fun”. Why must it always be assumed that player don’t want stress-free fun? I realize that some gamers like to be constantly challenged and die repeatedly because it gives them a sense of satisfaction when they finally beat something. That’s cool. I get it.

But more and more this game is leading me to feel as though, as far as the Devs are concerned, if I just want to have relaxing, stress-free fun, I’m not a “real” gamer and therefore do not matter. It’s not simply that this game “isn’t for me”. It’s more like this game actually regards players like me with disdain.

My two cents. Flame me if you must.

Great feedback. My answer would be that MOST of GW2 is relaxing stress-free content. My other answer is that it appears that I made W2 more difficult than I intended. I’ll check a lot of things and people and stuff, and if that is true I will tune it so that it’s fun for more people. I don’t think anyone here is elitist or thinks that non-hard-core challenge-based gaming is the only ‘real’ kind of game. We made Tribulation Mode for the hard core. We wanted Normal Mode to be for… well, normal players. Sounds like it needs some adjustment to get to that point.

Ben.2685:

Stop being swayed by potential cash grabs (as evidenced through the limiting of baubles and one life given on map restart).

If I cared about cash grabs I’d be working at Zynga where they design based on MTX. We don’t do that here. I’m trying to make SAB (And I mean SAB, not the GW2 rewards, achievements, titles, MTX, etc) a good, solid, fun game. That’s my focus. If W2 is not fun I will make sure it is changed so that it is fun. As I said above, the one-life thing was to add fun. I don’t find mindlessly throwing away lives to be fun. I want death to matter in SAB like it mattered in Mega Man and Metroid. That creates tension. Causes you to be careful. To THINK about your environment, enemies, and how you approach jumps. It is fundamental to creating the experience I want to create. But if you can jump back to the hub, then back to your group at the end of a zone with 5 lives again those lives are next to meaningless. The tension, awareness and thoughtfulness slip to the wayside because it doesn’t matter how often you die. It has nothing to do with selling anything.

Mirta.5029:

I would prefer us to be able to find those baubles as we go trough World 2, instead of getting to World 2 Zone 3, seeing that we can’t continue without a torch, having to exit the instance, farm in World 1, then enter World 2 Zone 3 and do it all again from the beginning. With levels being as long as they are, it just feels a tiny bit tedious.

I guess I would liken that to Metroid. Where you could zip along to the Mother Brain and get totally wiped out. Whereas if you dug around, found the secret health tanks, then it gets a lot more reasonable. Also, 2-2 is pretty short. If you find the Shortcut Eagle.

Kaleban.9834:

Not trying to (continue to) be snarky, but replying with “protip” to players’ legitimate concerns is why I at least respond snarkily in kind.

Hey that’s a great point. I honestly totally forgot that people use that in a sarcastic condescending way. I was seriously trying to be retro-funny. I’ll knock it off. Tell you what, I’ll stop saying ‘protip’ if you stop saying ‘slap in the face’. Deal?

Kaleban.9834:

My simple question is, why is World 2 the way it is?

Well I said this earlier, but I don’t mind repeating. I wanted W2 to have a longer learning curve. I saw how people mastered W1 in a day or less and thought to myself: “Hey Josh, how can you make W2 take longer to master?” The answers were multitudinous, and the results are what you see. From day-1 response it appears that I pushed that goal too far, so that it overwhelmed my primary goal which was to make a really fun new SAB World. And if that appearance bears out over the next day or so I’ll make changes. Not sure how much more accommodating I can get!

Kaleban.9834:

One could get through World 1 with basic effort, but to complete it all required some skill and practice.

Yes. I would like that to be the case with W2, just with a bit more basic effort and taking the time to really play it like a game rather than assume you should just be able to run full speed through it. Like I said, if we overdid it we’ll throttle it back.

Kaleban.9834:

Then, removing the ability to farm for bubble baubles by making digging sparser, fewer rewards, while keeping the same cost for the increased number of account bound, non trade-able skins is sort of a slap in the face.

A. No one at ArenaNet wants to slap players’ faces. That’s not good for business. There are probably other motives.

B. The reward structure is not my domain. I focus on making the in-SAB stuff. If the rewards don’t feel good enough to warrant playing the content I feel like I should work on making the content more fun. That’s my domain, and that’s all I will comment on.

Thomassassinate.9370:

What about giving information on our character so when one character unlocks a zone every character does? As much as i love SAB i want to play it on multiple characters without starting from the very beginning and no tools

Not sure. I’ll have to look into it. Would have to think through all the ramifications for that.

Ivonbeton.6814:

Well I’ve tried the digspots that people farmed (I checked some videos from the previous event), but if they had any baubles they were just single ones. I’m playing by myself, not sure if that’s affecting anything. I’ll try to find a party tomorrow.

Are you playing on Infantile? Digs were removed from Infantile.

Ivonbeton.6814:

I’ve been doing that, so far only got single baubles though. I’ll try to find some more spots tomorrow, thanks for the help.

Most of the dig spots are in hard to reach apparent dead ends.

Mirta.5029:

In my opinion it’s a bit disrespectful towards the person that posted the argument towards you.

Well I apologize if I came across disrespectfully. I didn’t mean to. My point was that you can’t argue precedent to change someone’s preferences. I’m not saying their preferences are wrong or bad. Just that showing that some old games do it that way won’t make them like that particular design.

Mirta.5029:

It feels like a grind. And grind does not feel fun.

Are you speaking from experience with SAB? Because I needed to ‘grind’ to save up 400 baubles for a torch and it took me about 10 minutes. Searching and discovering dig sites is also a big part of SAB and that element plays into this as well. I’m very aware that games have progressed. And choosing which of the old fashioned design to keep for flavor and what to jettison really comes down to personal taste. Personally I wouldn’t have the patience to recreate a FF1 grind or even a Legend of Zelda grind. The amount of backtracking to save Baubles is more like a gesture towards those grinds, not a re-creation.

MasterOfMistakes.2089:

1. are the dig spots still there at all.

2. what are they tied to in mechanics, because as it stands its bugged then or just random hit or miss.

Can you describe a specific location? I’ll look into it.

Shift Focus.9083:

zone 2 is insanely hard…like It’s not even fun

I think if you learn the map you would do a lot better and have more fun. However, as an environment designer it’s my job to keep your interest by providing fun while you learn. So I’ll see what I can do. Thanks for the feedback.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

I can’t always dedicate hours at a time to GW2, and it would really, really, really help if we could start playing at unlocked checkpoints rather than the start of each zone, in all modes. That way I could focus on a smaller chunk at a time and progress in the SAB even when I “only” have an hour to play in the evening.
.

I would like this too. I think we don’t have a way to store that information on your character though.

Coldin.2840:

It’s very rarely “You need to go back and find 200 coins, then you can buy this item.”

Hm. I remember doing that a lot. Maybe I shouldn’t call out Medroid/Castlevania exactly. But Zelda, Faxanadu, Willow, and most adventure games of their ilk did this. But I suppose arguing over precedent is pointless if your point is “I don’t like having to go back and save and buy stuff.”

Coldin.2840:

Why am I still using a stick anyway?

Protip: Find the secret shop with the Chain Sticks!

Kaleban.9834:

Odd that as a games developer you wouldn’t know what “noclip” is, seeing as how its been made famous by online competitive FPS right alongside Aimbot.

Sorry, I don’t develop FPSers. There is still very little industry standard lingo.

Kaleban.9834:

As I said above, 1. is not the problem. Its not lag, when people in the States on broadband connections with pings under 70 are having the same issues as everyone else.

I’ve learned that things are rarely as simple as they seem, and there are many factors that play into it. I’m not plugging my ears and screaming LA LA LA here. If that’s not the issue, great. I’ll adjust. I’ve said multiple times now that my goal with Normal Mode is to make it a fun experience for average players. At this point you can believe me, or just keep calling me a lying fraud. Whatever.

Kaleban.9834:

2. is also not the issue, as many of us that are very familiar with SAB World 1 were completely taken aback by SAB World 2.

And I’m paying close attention to this issue.

Kaleban.9834:

don’t know how large your alpha team is, but problems with content can be MUCH more quickly identified when thousands upon thousands of avid, hardcore players are tearing through your content.

Oh I’d LOVE to have thousands of alphas testing my stuff! But there’s logistics and NDAs and such that drastically reduce the pool of candidates.

Kaleban.9834:

Bottom line is, trust in the players,

Not sure where you’re getting the impression that I don’t. I wouldn’t be here interacting if that were the case.

nihil.6825:

To the developers: snip

Thank you for the well-reasoned and clear feedback, nihil. I appreciate it. I agree with most of what your saying. I’ll check, but I don’t think the number of Baubles is less in World 2. They are just hidden better. I wanted a longer learning curve for World 2. I also disagree that it’s the mark of a troll game to make you go back and buy a piece of equipment to progress. That is pretty much the core mechanic of metroidvania games.

RvLeshrac.2673:

What the hell is the deal with the turtles in World 2 being in unreachable locations? Can’t jump on them alive because I get knocked back by the water. Can’t hit them because THEY’RE IN THE kitten ED WATER, OUT OF RANGE.

Protip: Don’t forget you can get multiple ranged weapons with different ranges and angles. Also, many turtles are unnecessary to hit. Most rivers have multiple possible paths. In fact, it’s possible to get through Piranha Bend without ever touching a turtle.

Ivonbeton.6814:

So how do I afford things like the candle (which appearantly you need to progress)? I’m using a lot of my bubbles on coins. What’s the best way to get some extra?

Protip: First save up for a shovel. Then look for dig spots. There are hundreds of buried baubles in each zone.

Kaleban.9834:

The reason the devs are so good at it is because they can play with “noclip” on, perhaps they forgot that players don’t have access to the development console?

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘noclip’. But we would have to be pretty stupid to test the difficulty of our content using dev commands. My current guess is that the problem is 1. Lag makes rapids/waterspouts too hard. 2. People aren’t familiar with the content and once they learn the tricks they won’t find it nearly as hard. 3. We devs play constantly so we are more practiced at the content. 4. Our alphas must be better than average as well because we didn’t get anywhere near this amount of complaints over the difficulty during our alpha tests.

My goal is to make Normal Mode more fun than frustrating for average players, so it looks like I’ll have to tone it down to meet that goal. But I still need to give it a few days to make sure 1 and 2 aren’t the primary issue.

Thanks, Mirta. I value your input. I’m just also aware that people’s familiarity with the content is almost zero right now. World 1 had pretty short legs, as once you get through you know how to do it easily. I was hoping to make this round have a longer learning curve. Maybe I overdid it. I’ll be watching feedback closely over the next several days to determine that.

Mirta.5029:

Not about too much content, but rather about how many hours you have to put in it in one sitting and how likely you are to run out of continue coins before finishing a level. Old SAB took an hour to beat – all 3 zones of it. New SAB – I’ve spent 2 hours beating Zone 1, then perhaps another hour on Zone 2. I ran out of continues. I don’t want to have to do it all over again. For the content that’s out there – there could have been 6 zones instead of 3 to reduce the frustration of dying.

I remember starting the levels in Mario and Sonic and Ghosts ‘n’ Goblins, etc. over and over. Then as I learned the levels and creatively came up with tricks for beating them it became less and less until I could plow through without dying once.

Mirta.5029:

There are places where you barely not land on the second one and then there are places where the game teleports you on the second one without a choice. Really while I do understand the intention behind it, being forced to find an exact milimeter to land right next to the flower instead of on it is actually a bit too hard and some times glitchy for just the normal mode. It literally feels like the world is trolling you sometimes. Here you landed without touching the flower and there you go shooting into an opposite direction because the game thinks that you touched the flower.

Yeah, things can get squirly when lag’s involved. I’ll look into your suggestion to make them interactable instead of auto launchers.

Mirta.5029:

In old platform games you actually see your reach and manage to hit a model while still standing on some sort of sprite. World 2 Zone 1, after the rapids part, you use the flower to get to the side that has the shopping hut on it, you climb on the log to hit the crocodile to be able to jump on the flower from it, you have to move off the log and stand on thin air to actually hit him, if you don’t find the invisible spot in the correct way you kind of fall to your death. That’s not really strategy. That’s guessing how far can you walk on invisible air before you fall.

This is an example of what I mean by familiarity with the content. Soon it will be common knowledge that you simply stand on the river bank next to that log to shoot the croc. You can also shoot him from across the river and spin flower right onto his back. This is just like Ninja Gaiden or Mega Man where you have to find the right platform to hit the monster that will stab your face if you ignore him.

Mirta.5029:

As many as there are in some rooms on world 2 zone 2 and in the temple? That many have only be found on new age games that aim to be unforgiving, like for example “I want to be the guy”, such a difficulty spike is not characteristic of real old games, like zelda, or mario, or sonic. World 2 zone 1? Yeah, the increased enemy amount is fine. World 2 Zone 2? At times there’s simply too many of them.

I think I agree that the overall difficulty of W2 is disproportionately high right now. I don’t think it’s due to the number of enemies. I think first-day-lag due to hundreds of thousands of people all hitting the same maps at once is playing a big factor. I think there are a few specific spots like the gong and fish temples, Piranha Bend, and a few others that spike too high and I’m going to see what I can do about those.

Mirta.5029:

- the part where you have to push boxes to cover up the traps and jump over them, the one that shoots you at the end of it, as you’re jumping over one of them is simply not a fair one.
- the part where you’re climbing the temple that has the gong in it, in one area you pretty much can’t stop jumping and land, because the trap from the other side of the room will shoot you. That trap is not fair.

We have different definitions of fair. My definition of fair is having some form of danger detectable. The very first dart trap is not fair. But I’m willing to pay that price in order to set up the rest of that mechanic as a new and interesting flavor for the map. This is like the laser rooms in Mega Man 2. The first time you fall in there you WILL die. I don’t care how good you are at games. It takes many many lives to figure out the patterns and where you need to drop to survive. My dart traps are all visible if you know what to look for. I consider that fair.

Fhaeris.9237:

@everyone: they made it this hard just to sell more infinite coins off the gem store. Don’t fall for this trap.

We made it so that it’s fun to play. It’s quite possible that we are just THAT much better at jumping than the average player, but I doubt it. I want it to be fun. If MOST people think it’s too hard to be fun then I’ll reduce the difficulty. But like I said above, we don’t have good numbers on that yet.

StygSec.7163:

Zone 2: Dart traps can only be spotted at the last second..

Please look more carefully. If you dash through without looking around corners you will lose a lot of lives. As designed.

Not to minimize your complaints but here’s my take.

1. The zones are too long

You are complaining about too much content.

2. Jumping on a flower can throw you into another flower and kill you

You can be more careful about the direction you are facing when you land on them.

3. Crocodile hit boxes are too little

You need to use tactical stratagy to find the spots to hit the from, just like old platform games.

4. Too many enemies on all maps

Learning where enemies are and how to thwart them is part of the process of progressing in old platform games.

5. World 2 spike traps are not fair, especially when you get to places where there are lots of cheap ones.

They are all visible. The darts shoot out of dart boxes. The assassin training grounds are meant to teach you to carefully observe your surroundings.

6. World 2 does not have nearly enough checkpoints and repeating the gong run is painful

The gong run is painful. I’d like to tap that difficulty spike down.

7. World 2 – bringing the fish from the fountain, up the temple – too difficult due to lots of cheap spike traps

Not sure what you mean here. If you are talking about the dart traps, there are none in the fish temple.

8. World 2 – clouds are invisible unless your brightness is at 0.

I’ve tested on a variety of monitors and haven’t seen this problem.

I could go on and on and on. Normal mode was made far too hard.

You may be right. I think it’s too early to tell. Some number of people hit a little resistance and quit and come to complain about it. And some number hit that same resistance and are inspired to overcome it and they are in the game right now doing that. I don’t have a good sense of those numbers are right now. I’m more than happy to adjust it when I have better data to work from. Thanks for your feedback.

It’s most helpful to us if you are specific about areas that have difficulty spikes for you. (Such as mentioning the spin flowers above.) Also things are always laggy the first day of content release. So complaints about lag don’t help.