Guild Wars 2

The reason we did the 1 life thing is because we found that lives were not meaningful if you can just pop back in, catch up with your party or die once and catch up with them. Now they are. We also added Continue Coins in each Zone chest, and they are in JP chests as well. And you can buy 5 of them for one Bauble Bubble.

Here’s a fantastic game design lecture by Will Wright. Starting at the 12:50 mark he’s talking about feedback loops in much clearer language than that dense technical link I posted earlier:
http://youtu.be/CdgQyq3hEPo?t=12m54s

One thing he mentions is how the negative side of the feedback loop is usually the most interesting. People usually play games to achieve the success side of the loop, but it’s not very rewarding without having experienced the failure states. Imagine that like a slider, where some people want games with no failure feedback like that amazing mario game posted above, and some people want the slider cranked all the way in the other direction. And that’s what this emerging genre is. It’s an exploration of the furthest reaches of the aesthetic form of negative feedback loop. In that way it’s kind of like the Black Metal of games. Black Metal evolved as musicians were trying to find the most extreme ways to break the established rules of musical aesthetic. (though obviously there are the minimalists and modernists etc. who break them even more.) The point being that most people can’t listen to to more than 10 seconds of Black Metal. It makes them agitated, or so annoyed they get angry. (I know this because I’ve tested several people I know >;) Likewise, this platform hell, or whatever you want to call it kind of game makes some people annoyed and angry. Guild Wars 2 in general is like a beautiful sweeping orchestral movie score. It appeals to a much broader audience.

There is a well established three part structure to popular music, and 90% of the hits follow it to a T. and there’s an ancient 3-act-structure for story that 90% of books, movies, and plays follow to a T. But there are fantastic examples of media that purposefully subvert those structures and the fact that the rules are broken is part of what makes them great. There Will Be Blood has no hero who grows through a struggle, learns a lesson and wins at the end. It’s not so much a story as it is a character portrait on film. And there are entire genres of music that are defined by the ways they break the popular paradigm.

So when I hear folks saying “How are invisible instant death traps fun?” it sounds to me like asking “How can you enjoy Death Metal or 50s Jazz or movies where the hero dies at the end?” It’s simply a matter of taste.

Someone above described what “good design” is in a very textbook sort of way where there are balanced feedback loops with clearly delineated goals and telegraphed challenges. And that is a perfectly valid way to critique games. And most of the time when games break those rules it’s because of sloppy, ill-conceived design, technological hurdles, time constraints, etc. Most movies that break the 3 act structure do it because the writer, director, editor etc. just aren’t good at what they do. Pop music that lacks the Verse-Bridge-ChorusX3 is often because the artist doesn’t know any better.

But when an artist is experienced with their craft, knows the rules backward and forward, and has worked within that framework before, THEN with intent and forethought decides to make something that breaks those rules, pushes one element to its extreme, or some other innovation, THAT’S when “good” happens. Not for everyone, because most people dislike anything that deviates too far from the norm. But there is always a market of people who can recognize the point of the exercise and appreciate it.

Like before, I’ll throw out the caveat that I’m not claiming that the SAB team is that master craftsman pushing the medium forward in dramatic brilliant ways. Only that we are THINKING about the design choices we make, we recognize when we are breaking rules, and we have a reason for doing so. Because SAB exists within the ecosystem of Guild Wars 2 it’s not going to be an exact replica of IWTBTG. We’re a hybrid, and that brings lots of interesting challenges with it. I’m sure we’ll learn a lot from this first TM release, and incorporate those lessons into the next round.

Well, that’s enough prattling at 2:30 am! Good night/morning!

Yes. Every new release will keep the previous Worlds.

kdose.5309:

Josh – I love what you said so much that I put it in a blog post on my comic’s site. Artists need to stand up for niche design!
http://mistergkids.com/2013/08/31/a-bit-of-validation-from-an-odd-source/

Awesome man. Great strip. You should sign up for next season’s Strip Search!

timidobserver.7925:

Well he said it may seem like bad game design. That means he’s one step closer to admitting that it is bad game design. We are getting somewhere…..

I’d never claim to be an amazing designer. Only that I do think carefully about the design choices I make. Any time an artist chooses to do something that will be less popular than an alternate choice they know that they will be called a bad artist by many. Goes with the territory. It’s like (and I’m not comparing myself here) film makers such as David Lynch and Kubrick who makes movies/shows with purposefully ambiguous symbology and unsatisfying endings, or musicians like Bjork who will randomly release a virtually acapella album. These decisions limit the audience and make a lot of people who do stumble across their media angry, disappointed, annoyed, etc. And then say “That was bad.” Again, I’m not saying that my work is anywhere in the same league as Bjork or Kubrick. Only that there is a common phenomenon where people who don’t like a particular style, or find something that doesn’t fit in the popular established mold tend to assume that it is therefore ‘bad’.

Hey, maybe my work IS bad. I’m just trying to make stuff that I personally love to play. and it seems like there are others like me. At least enough to keep my quirky little project going!

Ant.3415:

I’m looking forward to this but I think having a grind for continue coins is a mistake, and as others have said I hope we don’t have to go through that intro dialogue each time.

I remember back in the day grinding for gold in Final Fantasy 1 and Dragon Warrior 1 to be able to buy enough potions to beat the bosses and dungeons. That’s essentially what you’ll be doing. The time invested in doing so ratchets up the tension.

As for the intro cinematic, it’s only an issue in 1-1, but we did make a special TM short version.

Rezz.8019:

So Josh is this kind of Limbo style? Where you just have to keep dying in order to get to the finish. If it is then I like it already!

Funny. I was literally just watching my son play Limbo. But yeah, like Limbo on steroids. And where the spiders dance.

Krugan.7901:

Interesting. So TM is not really difficult but just time consuming?

If you play Cat Mario or IWTBTG you will understand that those games are half trial-and-error, and half precision platforming. Even when you know where all the traps are the routs are still difficult. There are a few sections that give me Ninja Gaiden/Ghosts’N’Goblins flashbacks. We have a particular enemy that appears from time to time in TM that is reminiscent of the infamous Red Arremer. http://youtu.be/IQ2kMK_4kHI?t=3m58s

Except that ours is completely invincible. So yeah, there will be plenty of places where you’ll know exactly where to go and what to do, and you’ll still be slamming your face on the keyboard after your 30th try.

And if that’s not enough to sell you on the idea that TM will be difficult, I’ll just leave you with this equation: Sliding Ice Platforms + Instant Kill Spikes = ?

Re-post with Official Dev Credentials:

The Tribulation Mode skins are color-shifted variants of the regular set. Each World has a color. Blue is the general SAB color (so not gained through Tribulation Mode), Green is World 1, Yellow World 2, Red World 3 and Purple World 4. This follows the Bauble value color scale. But don’t get your hopes up for getting the Tribulation color variants. Tribulation Mode is ridiculously difficult and time consuming. I don’t expect to see many green or yellow super skins out there. TM is there for a very small group of people who are into that sort of thing.

Buttercup.5871:

John, will there be a solo mode of the tribulation difficulty? I really hope so! If that is the case, I would hope the skins are not tradeable. If it’s a forced group setting, I hope they will be.

Like before you can go in with 1-5 players. I imagine most Tribulation Mode play will happen solo. We made it so everyone in the party has to make it to a checkpoint before it will activate so that no one can coat-tail along.

Diogo Augusto.6904:

Josh, will those weapons from Tribulation Mode be tradeable?

They will be account bound until used then they are soul bound, like any other skin.

Evans.6347:

Anyway, the Tribulation weapons won’t drop from bosses, you still need to gather enough baubles of a colour. It seems very likely that Tribulation mode will be far, far harder to solo.

Each Tribulation Mode zone end chest will drop an item. You’ll need all three from a World, along with a weapon design purchased from Moto. Combine those in the Mystic Forge to create your Tribulation Mode colored weapon. Keep in mind we only have Worlds 1 and 2 right now, so the only colors available this release will be Green and Yellow.

I dropped it accidentally. Now I’m all swooshy and red again.

When we are first building our maps we go completely for aesthetics. Then we slowly pull them back to make the map realistically run on min spec machines. This is how most developers work. Sometimes things get ‘scrapped’, sometimes the props are changed pretty radically in the optimization process. Sometimes that means we get to make things looks better because we can pack more stuff where needed. And sometimes it means we can’t. It’s all part of the joys and frustrations of working in an evolving medium.

Those were all in the game during development, and evolved with time.

PhelanDisturbed.1650:

The spiders remind me of the nes game 7 up. I used to love that game…. It saddens me that I’ve not really seen that mentioned…

I owned the NES 7-up game. I don’t remember spiders…

Well, SAB is closed for now. Sadly, without a specific bauble count there’s no way to determine if it’s a bug. I did read very carefully every time you said that you got them all. But that doesn’t help us fix a bug if we can’t find any problems with it on our end. I’m sorry this is such a bummer. Try it again next time we open and I’ll make sure we get the issue cleared up.

I may have to add the 50 jumps in one place secret now.

Which bauble-related achievements do you have? Do you have the Associate of Baubles, World 1? (1-1) Do you have the Bachelor of Baubles, World 1? (1-2) Do you have the Master of Baubles, World 1? (1-3) It would be helpful to know how many baubles you are actually getting. If you start each zone with zero, and don’t pick up any digs or creature baubles, maybe that would illuminate the problem. We’ve looked it over and there does not appear to be a bug related to any of the achievements, so we’ll need more precise data from you in order to discover whether it is a bug or not.

Venirto.4208:

Hmm, a bit obvious question but, will I be able to get the missing achievements from World 1 when Moto comes back with World 2?

Yes.

It doesn’t bother me when people have fun with the accidents. I just appreciate it if they let me know where it happened so I can fix it.

Chief.5928:

Personally I feel that the final boss of world 1 is more likely to be a tribute to the final boss in Super Mario Bros 2 than some other game but maybe that’s just me being biased as I loved that game to bits and still consider it the best in the Super Marios Bros. series for being utterly revolutionary (multiple characters to choose from (each with their own abilites), no time limit (lovely as I hate time constrained gaming) etc.

For the most part we were not directly referencing any specific characters or enemies from specific games. Just pulling the most obvious tropes from the genre. It’s very common for forest levels to have frog bosses. That being said, I agree with you about SMB2. It’s my favorite as well, and I was very happy that we included a similar mechanic to killing its boss.

Chorel.1720:

So based on each world having its own titles and achievements it will be possible to get the old achievements and titles? So when world 2 comes out you can do all the achievements for world 1 and obtain the title? Just to clarify.

That’s the current plan.

He’ll still be selling stuff for two weeks after SAB closes for maintenance.

Chorel.1720:

when the SAB comes back can players still get the Distinction of Appleid Jumping title or is that only for this release?

Each World will have a new class of titles, based around degrees, like bachelors, Doctorate, etc. It’s basically Moto’s way of recognizing your level of education according to his program.

I only live to serve!

The cage guardian is slurping them up. The longer you take to destroy the cage, the fewer baubles you get. We didn’t get the sound and animation quite right. We’ll fix that for the next release.

Awesome!

It’s right next to the portal from Lion’s Arch.

Zivhayr.3658:

To clarify, when you say the skins will be gone is that entirely or just the ones you buy from Moto?

And will World 1 be availible at all in the next incarnation of Adventure Box?

1. I don’t know. I’m not the person who determines rewards and how they are distributed. I THINK they will be gone completely. I have no idea if they will ever be re-released. That’s all meta-game stuff. Imagine a typical 8 person NES development team making an action/adventure game in 1988. They were concerned with making a balanced, rewarding experience within their game… and that’s all. If Nintendo corporate wanted to offer prizes to players who sent in photographs of certain end screens or what-have-you, that would be a meta-game, and the corporate office would be the ones handling that whole area.

We (as in the SAB team) come up with what we think would be cool rewards, but ultimately that is not our domain. We have departments that have the whole GW2 experience in mind. (of which we are a teeny-tiny part) They are the ones that have to determine the design aesthetic, consider how the economy needs to stay in balance, keep the long, long term effects of rewards in mind, etc. Me and my little team are not equipped to make those kinds of decisions.

2. Yes, World 1 will return when World 2 comes out. By the time we release World 4, the entire game will be complete and playable from start to finish, along with hard mode, and hopefully some other modes we have in mind.

That looks amazing. Never played it. It reminds me of the NES game Faxanadu, which is a FANTASTIC game. My first computer was an Apple IIc. The closest I got to an epic adventure game was Conan.

I approve of this theory.

Love it.

Clearly, Moto does not want the book-reading denizens of SAB to think that he is the Princess. Whether he actually is or not, is open to interpretation. We’ll see if my idea for a Crying Game cinematic at the end gets through.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I just wish there were some item that you could show off that, when people see it, makes them say “Wow that guy is a boss at jump puzzles”. You know, for people like me.

I would also like that. I’m going to be pushing for that when we release hard mode. I’m guessing it won’t be a weapon skin. Maybe a mini or a town hat. Don’t know yet.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Josh is mixing up prestige with rarity. Prestigious items are of a certain quality, and say a certain thing about the person who wields them.

Well, I’m speaking colloquially here, because I’m not an expert nor a designer of virtual economies. I just find the subject interesting. In the real world you can buy all sorts of ‘prestigious’ things. Cars, homes, thousand dollar purses, etc. There are other things like prizes and metals you can win for feats of heroism or intellect or skill that you can not buy. It sounds like you want THOSE kinds of prestigious things. That’s cool.

Rising Dusk.2408:

You knew when you looked at a person the feats he had accomplished to get what he was wearing.

Ok. I acknowledge that is not what SAB skins are. So according to your definition of prestige, they are not prestigious. I’m ok with that. Regardless of my definition or your definition, a lot of people get happy feelings from them. THAT is really all I personally care about. Not the nomenclature.

Shiren.9532:

One of the things I really hate in MMOs is looking at items that no matter what I do, I will never be able to get them again.

Hm. I suppose I view it like real life. I see cars and houses and cool leather jackets etc. that I can never have. I’ve learned to accept that. I suppose it’s a certain expectation one brings into a game that will determine how they feel about this issue.

Shiren.9532:

It baffles me that this idea of prestige has more value to developers than allowing players more robust character customisation options.

Well we succeed or fail based on pleasing our player base. WE aren’t the ones value the idea of prestige. It’s the human brain that values the idea of prestige. (at least in the aggregate.) And 98% of our players are human, so we kinda have to work within that framework as far as I can tell.

JanoRis.8703:

Questions:
1. You said that the other super skins will be added at a later date. But you also said that next time there will be probably a whole new set of SAB skins. So will we have the missing Super skins and the new set next time? Will the new set also have the weapons that were missing this time? Or will we only have a completely new set next time, without any of the missing Super skins?

2. Are you planning on limiting the farming? With the team points? If so, will you increase the drop chance or make the drop chance increase with the team score? Cause completing the whole dungeon as good as possible, with a drop chest of 1 skin in 50 chests will make the new skins extremly rare.
Especially if they can also drop the missing super skins, since that would increase the Itempool way higher than the current SAB chest pool is.

1. We did about half the weapon set with W1. We’ll do the other half with W2.
2. We haven’t hashed out any of the details about that yet. Our team is currently spread around other teams for a bit before we get back onto SAB. (Several of us are working on game wide bugs.) I personally want to tie points into drop rate, but we will have to weigh all the pros and cons of whatever system we go with.

Katz.5143:

I think that being special is an inherent quality to the item and has nothing to do with it being limited.

I like to pretend that I’m a purist like this. But then I think about my Dinotopia book and Virgin Black poster that are signed by the artists. The signature adds nothing significant aesthetically to the items, but I value them more as a result. I also have my original Jetfire Transformer from when I was a kid, and the fact that they aren’t made any more does seem to imbue that hunk of metal (back then they used METAL in toys!) and plastic with more value. People will pay more for an old broken down ‘67 Mustang than than a new car. I think that ’being special’ is indeed an inherent quality, but that PART of the inherent quality is its context in the world. A ’67 Mustang is inherently more valuable because it is scarce, like my Transformer and Virgin Black poster.

Or perhaps we’re looking at it the wrong way. Maybe the premise that ‘inherent value’ is a tenable concept is wrong. After all, value is a human-derived concept. ‘Things’ are just different combinations of chemicals after all. Nothing HAS value in and of itself. So if we can agree that value is composed of -and for- humans, and only perceived by them, than the full gamut of human psychology must inform that valuation. And having something that others do not is, like it or not, an unavoidable component of human psychology. It may be a part that the more self-examining among us tend to loathe, and would like to grow out of. But it’s there none-the-less. The impulse to escape it is perhaps the impulse behind asceticism? I don’t know. It’s interesting to ponder.

BladeDVD.6234:

It’s like a concert t-shirt. It’s proof you were there. This can be seen negatively (ie, it’s cool because you don’t have it) or positively (it’s cool because it shows I was there). I think the later is what Anet is shooting for.

I can’t speak for the people who design and maintain our economy, but I know they aren’t elitists, and they are honestly trying to create the most positive experience for the most people possible. I really like this analogy, and I take some amount of pleasure from having limited edition concert tshirts because it is a small way of recording a small part of my life experiences. I would hope that in 3 years, some guy with his SAB scepter is feeling that way about it.

GuzziHero.2467:

That’s a perfectly valid perception. But as stated above, I think value is derived from personal opinion, not intrinsic or inherent attributes. I’m sure my signed Virgin Black poster is worthless to you, but that doesn’t make it worth less to me.

skullmount.1758:

All thats going to do is feed the elitest mentalities, which is not good for any game.

Perhaps you are conflating two things into one. Do you think that elitist attitudes are the same thing as whatever it is that drives the desire to have prestige gear? Do you think one causes the other? Or are they only sometimes correlative? I don’t have any final answers to these questions. Like I said, personally I don’t find a lot of satisfaction in prestige gear. But I understand why it exists. And I’m not convinced that it’s unhealthy for a community like you are.

I’ve heard a lot of very creative interpretations. It’s like a sonic Rorschach test.

It’s a design aesthetic. A lot people want prestige items which means limiting them. You can limit items by making the amount of time/resources required to get them very large, or you can limit them having them in for a limited time only. We could make every item easy to attain and permanently available, but then we lose the prestige factor. If you don’t value the prestige factor, then no arguments are going to make you understand. It would be like arguing someone into liking heavy metal or kimchi. Personally, I don’t particularly value the prestige factor, but I understand that it is a HUGE motivating force that drives the engine of the economy.

If we put him in he will just loop “YEEEEEAH BOOOOI!” over and over at maximum volume.

Electro.4173:

but if you’re doing it for fun and not just to amass more and more bubbles, then I see no problem.

Yeah, this. We will re-balance our reward structure for the next release so hopefully we don’t have a situation where people are doing ‘work’ to get something they want. I know the problem is impossible to solve completely, and there is some sort of side-door enjoyment SOME people derive from grinding a path over and over in pursuit of a distant reward. But it’s not our vision for SAB.

1. I’m almost certain they will be like every other piece of temporary content. Gone when the event is over.

2. Yet to be determined.

3. Probably not. See answer 1.

Spurnshadow.3678:

I do appreciate and commend Anet for consistently introducing new content to keep the game fresh. I just disagree with the type of content with SAB and wish they’d focus a bit more on the bugs and little annoyances that seem like it might be easy to fix that have existed since launch.

No one is going to agree 100% with the content any company makes. I understand there are plenty of people who find nothing entertaining about SAB. That’s perfectly fine. We are a tiny team, and there are many other, much larger teams focused on bugs and more traditional content. One of the truly amazing things about ArenaNet, and the reason I’ve been working here almost a decade, is that they actually let the content creators follow their passions and make stuff that we’re exited about. It’s one of the reasons GW2 is as good as it is. (Not perfect of course.) SAB is a dream gig for our little team, and most companies would say no to such an off-the-wall idea. The fact that we put it out there is testament to Anet’s desire to innovate and try new things rather than resting on our laurels and regurgitating the same thing over and over. So even if you don’t like this particular experiment, I hope that you can appreciate the impulse that made it possible; and I’m sure one of the many other teams we’ve got cooking up new and better stuff will make something that really appeals to you.

Meglobob.8620:

If you took SAB back in time to the late 80’s and released it as a game in its own right what would it score/review be like?

Probably 6-7 out of 10, medicore to average…

Well, minus the whole 3-D aspect of it, yeah, you’re probably right. Of course judging any classic platform or adventure game by it’s first 1/4 would get it lower scores. There are definitely problems in translating the tight, instant control of those old games into a 3 dimensional MMO engine with established mechanics. Despite that, I think by the time we are done we would get a review like this in Game Pro magazine in 1991: Graphics: 4 Sound: 5 Control: 3 Fun Factor:5. We’ll see.

Tuluum.9638:

Even if it isnt much, Id still rather it go into making the core game more strong. Then again, it seems many are enamoured with the SAB, and I think making so many happy with their game is a good thing in many ways.

I think this is a very mature statement. Of course no single piece of content is going to appeal to the entire player base. But as far as bang for your development buck, SAB has done very well for GW2 proper, bringing back a lot of players who faded out, and converting a lot of WoW players. SAB will come and go, but a lot of those people will stay in Tyria who wouldn’t otherwise be there.

The SAB forum, like the Halloween, Lost Shores, and other time-limited content will be archived. Posts will still be read-able, but no new posts can be added or created. The archive is located at the bottom of the page here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum

Should people wish to continue discussion about SAB, they can start new threads in the Living World Discussion sub-forum.

Tallis.5607:

Actually, we iterated on the weapon skins a LOT to make sure that they fit the world. Obviously some people’s definition of ‘fit the world’ is not some other people’s. But if you look at someone decked out in SAB skins next to a holographic flower or in the crafting area of Rata Sum they don’t contrast at all. Asura have holographic tech. Moto used it for weapons and pets.

This was fixed and should be in soon.

Gasoline.2570:

I just adore how positive comments get anets devs to reply.

I don’t think the Things To Improve thread would be so large if we were afraid of negative comments.

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

We did not change any Bauble locations. The digging is more finicky than I like. I’ll be looking into why.

When I first thought of the idea of an 8-bit jumping puzzle dungeon the very next thought I had was: How does this fit into GW2? Asuran tech was a no-brainer, but thinking of the Why question took me a little bit. When I was a kid my mom saw my game addiction and kept trying to make me play educational games, so I thought that would be the perfect flavor to give it. Asurans are all about education…. and competition. It’s the perfect match.