Guild Wars 2

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Hello guardians! Lets take a break from murdering my face with burning and talk about how you guys are liking the new traits. Feel free to either directly answer my questions or just talk about what you feel is important for the devs to know about these changes.

Questions:

1. Are you using the new elites at all? I’ve heard from a few guardians that they’re having trouble dropping Renewed Focus for the new ones because RF is just that good.
2. Any new builds besides bunker and power medi? Anyone make a spirit weapon build that’s actually good? I am well aware of your lovely burn build >_<.
3. Has anyone made a good symbols build?
4. Overall, are you happy with the build diversity that guardians have right now?

For PvE, I think we are doing fine. Perhaps more than fine with the Symbolic Avenger bug and the new quickness elite.

For PvP, I feel that the heavy condition meta severely limits the builds that we can have and forces us to take certain traits to survive. Seeing as though we have the lowest health pool, condition damage takes a real toll on us. The only solutions to this are to take an amulet with vitality or take as many condition cleanses as we can. The vitality amulets aren’t really a solution either as it just means it will take just a few more ticks until we are dead anyways.

Our current solutions for condition removal are:
*Take Pure of Voice and bring a lot of shouts. If you do this, you pretty much have to take soldier runes also.
*Bring Meditation skills like Contemplation of Purity and Smite Conditions. Monk’s focus is pretty much required for this also for the CD reduction and heals.
*Taking Absolute Resolution in the Virtues line. Which usually means you also need Renewed Focus so that you can double cast it to remove condis.

The said part of the above is that taking just one of the above solutions usually isn’t enough to fight against a condi heavy class. You usually have to take Virtues along with one of the other condi solutions. This severely limits the builds that we can output. As such, builds that utilize spirit weapons or signets will be severely limited even if the functionality to them were better.

Honestly I think the thing that limits the builds that we have the most is the need for condition removal and I think one of the things that could help that is to give us a way to not have to designate two of our three traitlines to take care of it. The easiest solution would to make the condition removal part of Absolute Resolution baseline. This way, we would free up a line and open up a lot of other builds. (Although, signets and spirit weapons need a lot of work still to make them viable.)

I like the idea of making shield our cc weapon. My suggestion:

Shield 4: Change to an aoe taunt with protection and retaliation.

Shield 5: Add a blast finisher and/or stunbreak.

As a medi guard (before and after patch), I don’t have an issue with most thieves. On average, I’d say I can kill about 90-95% of thieves with little difficulty. There is a pattern with the ones that give me a tough time or even kill me. They don’t stay close to me. They shadow step in, do some burst and and back out. Then they do it again. If I don’t get good timing on my burst in those situations, the thief will beat me. However, most thieves I see just run up to me and expect me to drop instantly. If you stick close to me, you’re gonna have a bad time. Kiting is one of the major weaknesses of a mediguard.

Btw, the “guard changes” you are suggesting are not just a nerf, they completely butcher all damage builds for guard. Basically you are trying to make us bunker only.

guard changes:
- contemplation of purity should convert 3 conditions only, not unlimited
- purging flames CD increased by 5 sec
- fiery wrath should be moved to master tier at least
- focused mind should be moved to more damage oriented trait lane
- smite conditions needs it’s CD increased by 5-10 sec
- very arguable: virtrues should only grant teammates buffs if guardian traited for (similar to venom share)

The change you suggested to contemplation of purity would make us melt to a necro or engi in seconds.

Purging flames I don’t often use it as a medi guard but I don’t see the point of increasing the cooldown. It does what its supposed to do.

If you moved fiery wrath up a tier, my damage would go bye bye and I wouldn’t have a chance against condi/bunkers at all. I have to spec full zerker with good rune choice to get enough damage as it is to put pressure on most builds. This essentially would completely cripple all damage the guard has.

Increasing smite conditions by 5-10 seconds? Really? Its the only low cooldown skill we have as a mediguard. This would further weaken us to condtion builds and SEVERELY nerf our sustain.

Virtues already have to be traited for to grant boons to allies. Sure it may only be 5 points in but the duration of the boons is not that long. If you took this away, The mediguard would be a complete hindrance in teamfights instead of just weak in teamfights.

What counters a mediguard? Pretty much anything that can kite well or apply a lot of soft/hard CC. So I’d say engi.

I actually wrote up that guide on intothemists based on Strife’s guide (which was falling out of meta at that time).

The build is solid but it’s no longer considered optimal for dungeons. For the current meta guide for guards look for the sticky by Obal at the top of the guard forums.

Well the reverse is kinda true too… they just wait until we use shelter…

According to reddit, they are fake:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1xii24/preliminary_new_elite_skills_march_18th_2014/

Wow. if this is true, maybe they are finally doing something to fix spirit weapons…

I’m not gonna get my hopes up though.

@Dynnen: They haven’t said. I was thinking since we weren’t included in the first pass of vigor nerfs that they had to put some extra thought into it but I am starting to think they are just going to nerf that and see our response.

@Voltric: Currently Guards, Mesmers, and Eles have it. Guards and Mesmers will be losing it with the next balance patch. And as Buran said, some classes need more mitigation than others so “bringing things in line” could end up being more profound than it initially appears. With our heal on dodge, the vigor nerf could cause major issues here, although, with the boon duration on bunker builds it may not make a difference to bunkers. The nerf should be a decent hit to offensive guards though especially since i think they are also doing something to sigil of energy.

@Buran: If you are intent at rerolling, you can always use the transmutation trick to move your twilight to another character. All you need is a transmutation stone, a white greatsword and a transmutation splitter.

Honor
Adept
Wrathful Spirit – Aegis gives 3 seconds of retaliation when it ends
+Retaliation isn’t worth it as it scales with power but you need to be tanky to benefit from it.
Protective Reviver – When you revive an ally, you both gain aegis, protection, and regeneration for 10 seconds
+Other traits are way more useful here.
Resolute Healer – Generates a Shield of Absorption when you start reviving an ally. This effect cannot trigger more than once every 60 seconds
+Cooldown is too long. Other traits are more useful here.
Grandmaster
Battle Presence – Nearby allies gain Virtue of Resolve’s passive effect
+Doesn’t work on other Guards. No self benefit. Healing given to other is pitiful anyways.
Virtues
Adept
Vengeful – Retaliation lasts 25% longer
+Retaliation isn’t worth it as it scales with power but you need to be tanky to benefit from it.
Consecrated Ground – Consecration skills use ground-targeting
+very little point to ground targeting consecrations. Better to just spend the points elsewhere.
Retaliatory Subconscious – Gain 3 seconds of retaliation whenever you are dazed, stunned, knocked down, knocked back, or feared. (30 second recharge)
+Retaliation isn’t worth it as it scales with power but you need to be tanky to benefit from it.
Improved Spirit Weapon Duration – Spirit weapons last 50% longer
+Spirit weapons die quickly, attack slowly, have long cooldowns and require heavy traiting. Anything spirit weapon related is subpar at the moment.
Master
Elite Focus – Elite skills last 50% longer
+Does practically nothing for Renewed Focus. It makes the books better but only slightly. Cooldown on the books are way too long and don’t last long enough anyways. And how come we never saw any changes to Tome of Wrath’s quickness duration after the nerf to quickness?
Supreme Justice – Virtue of Justice causes burning every 3 attacks instead of 5. When activating Virtue of Justice, the burn duration is increased by 25%
+Condition damage related skills are subpar on guard because we only have one condition (Burning) that only stacks in duration.
Grandmaster
Permeating Wrath – Virtue of Justice’s passive effect no longer burns your target, but instead burns the area around you each time it activates
+Condition damage related skills are subpar on guard because we only have one condition (Burning) that only stacks in duration.
Shielded Mind – Activating Courage also breaks stuns for any ally affected by the ability
+Cooldown too long on courage. Usage is extremely situation at best. Not worthy of grandmaster trait.

my list
Zeal
Adept
Binding Jeopardy – Immobilizing a foe also applies 5 stacks of vulnerability to them (8 seconds)
+Only 3 sources of Immobilize: Scepter 3, hammer 3, Condition Signet. Never worth it compared to Firey Wrath
Revenge of the Fallen – Increased damage by 50% while downed
+Downed skill. Trait for it incase you go down and cripple yourself while you aren’t.
Shattered Aegis – When an aegis you applied is removed, it damages nearby foes
+Damage done is miniscule. Even if you multiply it by 5 for each person that gets aegis Courage is on too long of a cooldown to make it worth it.
Spirit Weapon Mastery – Reduces recharge on spirit-weapon skills by 20%
+Spirit weapons die quickly, attack slowly, have long cooldowns and require heavy traiting. Anything spirit weapon related is subpar at the moment.
Master
Focused Mastery – Reduces recharge on focus skills by 20%
+Shield of wrath is what you want this for but it only shaves off 7 seconds. Trait points could be better used elsewhere.
Scepter Power – Scepter damage is increased by 10%
+10% more damage for one weapon. Our only ranged weapon… that misses often at range.
Eternal Spirit – Spirit weapons are not destroyed when commanded
+Spirit weapons die quickly, attack slowly, have long cooldowns and require heavy traiting. Anything spirit weapon related is subpar at the moment.
Grandmaster
Wrathful Spirits – Increases spirit weapon damage by 50%
+Spirit weapons die quickly, attack slowly, have long cooldowns and require heavy traiting. Anything spirit weapon related is subpar at the moment.
Kindled Zeal – 13% of your power is converted to condition damage
+Condition damage related skills are subpar on guard because we only have one condition (Burning) that only stacks in duration.
Radiance
Adept
Healer’s Retribution – Gain 3 seconds of retaliation when using a heal skill
+Retaliation isn’t worth it as it scales with power but you need to be tanky to benefit from it.
Shimmering Defense – Burn nearby foes when your health reaches 25% (60-second recharge)
+Condition damage related skills are subpar on guard because we only have one condition (Burning) that only stacks in duration. And this one is passive.
Searing Flames – When you apply burning to a foe, remove a boon. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds
+1 boon every 10 seconds max isn’t worth what you’d be giving up.
Master
Radiant Fire – Reduces recharge on torch skills by 20%. All burning durations are increased by 20%
+Condition damage related skills are subpar on guard because we only have one condition (Burning) that only stacks in duration.
A Fire Inside – Spirit weapons cause burning
+Spirit weapons die quickly, attack slowly, have long cooldowns and require heavy traiting. Anything spirit weapon related is subpar at the moment.
+Condition damage related skills are subpar on guard because we only have one condition (Burning) that only stacks in duration.
Inscribed Removal – Using a signet cures a condition on you
+Signets aren’t instant and can be interrupted. The passives are good for signets (though selfish) and the actives arent worth losing for condition removal.
Grandmaster
Perfect Inscriptions – Signet passive effects are improved by 20%
+Slight stat boost. Not worth it for grandmaster trait.
Valor
Adept
Defender’s Flame – 100% chance to burn attackers when blocking
+Condition damage related skills are subpar on guard because we only have one condition (Burning) that only stacks in duration.
Strength of the Fallen – Lose health 33% slower while downed
+Downed skill. Trait for it incase you go down and cripple yourself while you aren’t.
Master
Glacial Heart – Critical hits with a hammer have a 50% chance to chill up to 5 enemies around a 180 radius for 4 seconds. This effect is unblockable and can only occur once every 30 seconds
+Not frequent enough and it only works with hammer.

Amins.3710:

Kyle.3856:

snip

Careful Kyle, they’ll ban you just for speaking his name.

I hope that’s sarcasm :O

Anyway, I don’t think its too much to ask for the reasons why the devs believe that “dps guard is lacking”. They’ve said it more than once in live streams and on the forums but specifics are always left out.

Another thing we should probably get a discussion on is the eventual nerf to Vigorous Precision. They already said they were looking at changing it but this would heavily impact our class and I think there should be some major discussion on it.

The thing that really got to me with this whole thing was the below quote:

JonPeters.5630:

Shattered Aegis
As soon as I get in on Monday, I’ll post the damage #s on this and the power scaling. I think a meaning ful discussion about this change is going to require that.

We never got the numbers for the skill until the patch was delivered and he even said that we could not have a meaningful discussion without them.

I generally like to give the benefit of the doubt for these types of things but it really does seem like they were just trying to pacify us with a few minor buffs. I mean… the buff I was looking forward to the most was the 5% damage boost to 1h sword which the devs themselves said was lacking.

If they would have just popped in every now and then and said “Hey, we like this idea and are considering it” or “No, I don’t think that would work” or just some acknowledgement that they are reading it would have been nice. At this point, it seems like our feedback/effort is just being ignored.

If we aren’t being ignored, I would like to know what the devs roadmap for the class is. What specific issues do the devs see with guards right now? What concerns do the devs have with making changes to fix said issues? And (I don’t see them providing this but…) potential changes that are being looked into.

From the ele forums:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Treborlavok.3504:

just like the guardians 5 trait for vigor on crit… its ok for them to have a 10 second single condition cure at adept…?

The Guardian and Mesmer vigor traits are something that were on the table and will be on the table for change in the future. We don’t like those traits being that easily accessible. While they haven’t yet been changed as long as our thoughts don’t change internally they are part of the vigor rework we want to do.

………. Uh oh….

Better yet! Move firey wrath to the 5 point minor in zeal. Pretty much all guards that go at least 10 in to zeal will take that anyway. This alone should free up some builds.

Aza.2105:

EnemyCrusher.7324:

Please don’t ruin the synergy between Shattered Aegis and Fiery Wrath!

I personally never heard of anyone who uses shattered aegis.

Agreed. We have plenty of other ways to apply burning including passively with VoJ. Shattered Aegis seems like a waste currently and depending on the numbers we get probably still a waste after december 10th.

The 10% more damage while burning is way more useful at the moment. I’d even prefer the new Shattered Aegis to be moved to a minor in the line if it turns out to be useful.

Did we ever get the numbers for the new Shattered Aegis? I’ve looked around and haven’t seen anything…

JonPeters.5630:

The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.

Thoughts?

Jon

Hi Jon,

I’m going to start off by saying that this change is the one I was most excited about out of all the ones listed. That being said, It probably isn’t necessary. As others have said, We actually have pretty good dps if specced for it. The problem with our dps lies in the fact that it is hard to connect attacks as a guard. This is probably best felt than trying to explain. Soft CC is probably the best solution to add to this trait. If, however, you are planning to do something about that in the unannounced changes, I would say merging it with blind exposure would be good.

The symbol pulse change is rather odd. From the way I read it each pulse applies 4 seconds, so if you stand in there you could potentially stack up to 16 seconds of swiftness (with the 4 pulses). But if you need the swiftness, you probably don’t need to be standing around waiting for it. :S Should be good for zergs in WvW though with multiple guards…

Link to dev post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/first#post3133112

Overall, some nice boosts to offensive guard… I’m getting excited

Obtena.7952:

So you don’t feel that your defining class mechanic should be THE strongest abilities of the class? I do.

While you do make a good point there, it doesn’t make the class comparison any less valid or compelling to me. Perhaps you should realize that some people need something more compelling than “It just feels wrong”… That just isn’t a compelling enough argument for me…

Furthermore, how do you plan to show that virtues aren’t the strongest abilities of the class? Is everyone just supposed to take your feeling as gospel?

Btw, I’m not trying to be rude when I say the above… I read it a couple of times and I think it could be misconstrued. Just trying to convey that what compels some people doesn’t compel all. I think the more variations of reasons the better. The ultimate goal is to get the guards that think “guards are fine” to wake up and realize… are we okay with “fine”?

Obtena.7952:

Put it this way … I don’t play any other class at level 80 except Guardian, yet I still know that virtues are underwhelming. I don’t need to play another class to understand this. No one should.

But, why buff them then? Just because in your opinion they aren’t good enough? That’s not a compelling argument to me.

Obtena.7952:

Kyle.3856:

What if people were only able to play as guardians? Would there still be deficiency? No because everyone is on even ground. This is the reason for comparison to other classes.

Actually no because my argument is that virtues as a profession mechanic are underwhelming and need to be buffed. That argument isn’t dependent on anything but the profession itself.

I firmly believe if you want to be convincing, you need to provide the best argument possible; the argument based on the least questionable assumptions. My high level problem with this comparative approach is that there is more than one conclusion that can be reached. It’s not so black and white like you think and a bunch of those conclusions result in Guardians still not any better off. While you might get a dev to acknowledge the disparity between War and Guardian healing and even that a solution is needed, it might not be the one we want.

I think the argument that Virtues are underwhelming as THE defining profession mechanic leaves no ambiguity. The only solution to that is to enhance or buff their effect.

So, a comparison to another class is not convincing but your opinion that they are underwhelming is? I just don’t understand your logic at all…

Obtena.7952:

The warrior is balanced? That’s an interesting assessment right their. They are beyond balanced because they can choose MANY rules simultaneously and be accomplished. I don’t believe that is the intent of the non-holy trinity concept that Anet envisioned for this game. That’s why I think everyone using warrior as the baseline for balance is being delusional. That’s just a weak argument for Guardian improvements.

I saw in a previous post that you said that the virtues line should be buffed… correct? Why? You said there was a deficiency in the class itself…

What if people were only able to play as guardians? Would there still be deficiency? No because everyone is on even ground. This is the reason for comparison to other classes.

Comparisons are comparisons. That is all. Warrior is the easiest class to compare to as they are the most similar to us. If you think we need to be compared to all the classes as a whole, start a thread and start crunching numbers. If you would like to bring something to the table besides “Why compare to wars?”, Why don’t you try to do something constructive like calculating the number of conditions the other classes can push out per second and then calculate the damage. Then you could even find out the time to live each class would have under each condi spam. Honestly, I think that would be a very valuable asset to have.

The lack of a trinity is all the more reason why we need to be able to perform multiple roles.

Honestly, from what I’ve seen, I do not think that the warriors are going to get nerfed… If they do, does that solve our issues? No… If you look back to what I posted before, I think conditions are our main problem. Condition spam is the reason that I believe Warrs got the signet buff. Guards should get some relief as well. That’s all I’m saying.

As it is we are pointing out a problem, it’s up to Anet to decide what to do with it. I am just providing input.

Obtena.7952:

It hasn’t been skirted, it’s just that people believe they are making a more convincing argument with Warrior comparisons and threads containing numbers with huge volumes of insignificant digits.

If this is a burn on me and my “insignificant digits”, the only reason I decided to do the math is that I kept seeing biased blanketed statements being thrown back and forth with no value/proof being inserted. If you don’t like the fact that i didnt round, go do the math yourself

Furthermore, I don’t think this is an insignificant comparison as the warrior seems to be balanced in and of itself right now in the fact that they can pretty much choose any role and accomplish it to some extent. The other classes, not just guardian, should be brought up to match it. But if we keep going around saying, “Guard is fine” then we WILL end up being the weakest class as the other ones are brought up to be on par with warriors. If we don’t bring up our short comings then the class will remain stagnant as the devs would believe that guardians are content as they are.

coglin.1867:

Sorry, but I am not familiar enough to know the abbreviated terms, PoV ???

Pure of Voice. Grandmaster in honor. Converts one condition to a boon when you use a shout. Affects all party members.

varena.1362:

You could argue for dropping 10 points in zeal and picking up PoV as well as the passive 10% when endurance isn’t full.

In a zerker build you’ll be dodging a lot anyway and it’ll affect all your damage, not just the symbol. Plus you get extra group condition removal as well.

I don’t like that on a hammer build as the hammer symbols reward you for not moving too much… But its all preference…

coglin.1867:

So in a symbol build, what gear do you suggest? DO we have a target amount of cirt chance or power or any other stats?

In PvE, all zerker. Something like this is what I’d run: http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|2.5g.h2.0.0.0|b.5g.h2.d.5g.h1j.0.0.0|1g.7e.1g.7e.1g.7e.1g.7e.1g.7e.1g.7e|3s.0.2s.0.3s.0.2s.0.3s.0.2s.0|p20.p29.0.k37.0|39.j|v.18.1a.1b.1i|e

In WvW you will generally want at least 40% crit chance to proc EM every second so Knights is a good choice. Toughness and Vitality are the next primaries. Power and Crit damage are good too. Avoid condition damage like the plague. You could potentially try to mix clerics and magi if you want to make a healer/tank but if you are gonna go down that route I would skip the zeal line all together. Maybe something like this http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|2.5n.h2.0.0.0|6.5c.h8.0.0.0|1c.7x.1c.7x.1c.7x.1c.7x.1c.7x.1c.7x|4u.0.21j.0.31j.0.21j.0.31j.0.2u.0|0.f2.u45b.k37.5|39.7|v.16.1a.19.1i|e

roachsrealm.9284:

as for other traits, I recommend the radiance line up to at least 15. you apply vuln on blind, F1 does blind (and vuln now) and F1 will recharge on each enemy death.

add a paltry 5 points into Virtues and you can add area stacks of might to the above. with this you can still trait full 30 into symbols line and 20 into Zeal for some extra damage. You miss out on the 25 symbol damage boost trait, but the extra might you will be generating more than makes up for it. Ive played it both ways and the extra 5 in virtues just does more damage for everyone and increases survivability. everyone wins.

To add to this, if you are not going to go 25 deep into zeal for more symbol damage, you only really need to go 15 deep for the vuln so you have an extra 5 points to play with.

I forgot though… hammer is fun on skyhammer in spvp :P

Klat.5846:

Tarsius.3170:

What facets of the game are you interested in?

For instance – the shield is pretty worthless in 98% of the PvE content of the game, useless in WvW zergs, ok in sPvP and pretty darn good in WvW roaming. The hammer on the other-hand is a generally useful weapon.

I’m kinda in the same boat as OP. Been playing Mesmer and now I’m in interested in Guardian. Currently levelling one up and having a blast.

I’m pretty interested in a hammer / whatever wep sets build although my preference is probably hammer / sword + focus or sword + shield (I’m open to anything else as long as hammer is the main wep). What sort of trait would you recommend and what utilities synergize well together? My focus is mainly in sPvP and WvW roaming.

Also what sort of armor/trinket sets would you recommend if I’m mostly interested in dealing the hurt but still be able to withstand a moderate amount of damage?

Thanks in advance.

I don’t think the hammer would be the best choice for sPvP as the symbol is what does the most damage and good players would probably just walk out of it. Its fine for WvW though as it will hit multiple targets and banishing them off a cliff is fun Either way the build I put before was for PvE. For WvW you could try an AH/EM build. Should work fine with it. I believe there is a sticky at the top of the forum that has details on it.

If you are going to try a guardian hammer build try 25/25/0/20/0 and take all the symbol traits you can. It also lends well to signets but those can be kind of selfish. Up to you.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Aza.2105:

Relentliss.2170:

VofC (aegis) is on a longer cd than any of the Pain skills… just sayin.

Apparently Aegis is more powerful than being completely immune to physical damage for 5 seconds twice (traited) with a 60 sec cd.

Aegis is too situational. It can either save you from a killing blow at that right time or break off something like an auto attack allowing a large blow to come through. Another idea would be to have Aegis have a damage absorption for physical attacks only. To break Aegis you have to do X amount of damage before it breaks. I’d be ok with Aegis being a absorption shield than a bladeturn effect (Note the DAoC lingo).

I.e. Absorb up to 3,000 damage before your Aegis shatters.

Of course it won’t stop you from receiving the CC effects of other attacks. You’d still be knocked down for instance but it wouldn’t do damage unless the attack was stronger than 3,000.

Sorry for the triple post. I’m all for adjusting the guardian and bringing the warrior down slightly to more reasonable level.

Adding this quote from another user. I believe he had a good idea for aegis. Basically aegis would have its own health and would break after enough damage was done instead of it always breaking after one hit. If we could still have it completely negate the last hit even if there was only 1 health left on the aegis, I’d be completely down with it. Might have to modify the damage modifier on unscathed contender but I’d be willing to drop to 10% for consistent activation of it.

We really only have access to burning… We’d need more condition types to make it viable.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Aza.2105:

Relentliss.2170:

VofC (aegis) is on a longer cd than any of the Pain skills… just sayin.

Apparently Aegis is more powerful than being completely immune to physical damage for 5 seconds twice (traited) with a 60 sec cd.

Aegis is too situational. It can either save you from a killing blow at that right time or break off something like an auto attack allowing a large blow to come through. Another idea would be to have Aegis have a damage absorption for physical attacks only. To break Aegis you have to do X amount of damage before it breaks. I’d be ok with Aegis being a absorption shield than a bladeturn effect (Note the DAoC lingo).

I.e. Absorb up to 3,000 damage before your Aegis shatters.

Of course it won’t stop you from receiving the CC effects of other attacks. You’d still be knocked down for instance but it wouldn’t do damage unless the attack was stronger than 3,000.

Sorry for the triple post. I’m all for adjusting the guardian and bringing the warrior down slightly to more reasonable level.

I really like your aegis idea… You should post it in the guardian development thread.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

The only reason I can imagine warriors having such a high passive heal for healing signet is that they lack damage mitigation abilities. All they have access to is: Endure Pain lasts 5 secs on a 60sec cd, Defy Pain lasts 4 secs on a 60sec cd, Block lasts 3 secs on a 30sec cd, and Berserker Stance lasts 8 secs on a 60 sec cd but only affects new applications of conditions. Block has to be channeled and you can still be pulled or knocked down/back with it up which does not allow you to continue to attack. Endure Pain is short on a high cooldown but absorbs ALL physical damage but you can still be CC’d. Effectively, there is a longer period of time that the warrior can not take any physical damage but is it effective? Maybe.

They lack Aegis, options to blind, protection, and multiple sources of regen and on demand healing that the guardian brings. For warriors, damage mitigation only comes from having a high passive heal on their healing signet. The issue is, they can still go full on offensive and still have that decent passive regen. With the recent buff to Vigorous Shouts their base shout heals for 2k+ now. Full Cleric gear grants them over 3k per shout on a 20-30 second cool down. They could literally be carrying an extra Healing Surge in their pocket if they needed to which is AoE btw.

Aegis, blinds, and protection are great. However they do nothing for conditions. Also, regen helps but not enough… plus warrs can get regen too.

Also, kinda unfair that our elite skill Renewed Focus only gives us 2 seconds of invuln as compared to the warrior utility skill with 4 seconds, a stun break, and 30 second quicker activation time. Yeah, we get an extra block and get our passive heal back but it still doesn’t add up.

Here’s a few things I thought of. Not saying we should get all of them but I was trying to address the main issues I see with the class.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Main issues:
Offensive support
Spirit weapons
signets are selfish
area denial is useless due to stability and defiant
Light fields not very beneficial
lack of soft cc
lack of mobility (not going to touch this as I believe this is as designed)
ranged viability
conditions on offensive builds

Traits
======
Zeal
——————-
Zealous Blade
Merge with Empowering Might and remove heal. Make it weapon independent. Keep 1s cooldown. possibly increase might duration to 5 seconds so we can contribute our 5 stacks of the 25 possible for the party.

Scepter Power
Remove due to changes to Zealous Blade

Kindled Zeal
change to 15% and add torment when a burn is inflicted on your foe.

Add new zeal grandmaster trait that reduces incoming condition damage on the guardian by at least 30% (considering a warrior has over 60% more base health than us)

Radiance
——————-
Blind Exposure
increase duration to 12 seconds

Inner Fire
Have this activate with torch 4

Perfect inscriptions
Passives also apply to party members
Inscribed removal also affects entire party if also traited

Valor
——————-
Focused Mind
increase to 5 seconds and make it affect party

Honor
——————-
remove empowering might

2 handed Mastery
add the heal from zealous blade but make it scale with healing power

Virtues
——————
Should be reworked. Timeouts are too long and some of the traits should be combined. Passives need to get buffed with the traits as well as actives. Needs a better grandmaster trait. I saw some other really great suggestions for this line in other places so I won’t go into it.

Weapons
=====
Hammer
——————-
Hammer auto no longer drops light fields. Instead it drops a new type of field: Ice.
Ice field:
Blast finisher: Chill
Leap finisher: causes vuln on hit (similar to fire leap but with more blue bubbles)
projectile: condition removal

Hammer 3
no longer does immob but instead does a long chill in a cone in front of you

Hammer 4
aoe knockback in a cone in front of you. reduce distance and cooldown.

Hammer 5
Cast time removed. Stability is removed from opponent after one pass through

Sword
——————-
Sword 3
Change skill so that it absorbs projectiles and causes aoe chill. Also Blast finisher. (And make this a blue bubble… we don’t see enough bubbles any more OR could make this absorb projectiles and drop an ice field.

Torch
——————-
Torch 4
Works with Inner Fire

Torch 5
Completely change. Make it give 3 stacks of might to allies, blind and burn foes. Attack as it is now is not worth it.

scepter
——————-
Scepter 2 also causes chill.

Shield
——————-
Shield 4 also blinds enemies

Shield 5 make it reflect instead of absorb projectiles since it has to be well timed. Blast finisher would be nice.

Staff
——————-
Completely change staff 2. Make it a single target 1200 auto attack type skill. That way we still have aoe and now we have a viable long range weapon all in one. Make it do more damage the further your target is away like the mesmer gs auto but with bluey goodness.

Staff 5
Line of warding now removes stability after one pass thru

Greatsword
——————-
gs 4 change to ice field.

Mace
——————-
I think Mace is alright would like to make one suggestion now though. Change light field blast finishers to regen instead of retaliation since there are less light fields now.

Skills
=====
Sanctuary removes stability after 1 pass through. Make bubble slightly larger again

Smite Condition is now a blast finisher

Spirit Weapons
—————————————
Remove death timeout for all spirit weapons.
Make all weapons immune during their attack sequence.
Increase health again.
Increase bow autoattacks and make them all aoe.
Make each spirit weapon provide a unique buff to the party while its alive.
Suggestions:
Greatsword: damage increase
Hammer: damage reduction
Bow: condition damage reduction
Shield: Rejuvination

For PvE Defiant should be completely reworked. instead of giving it a count of the number of CCs till the next one works it should be a time based buff for the enemies and should only activate on certain skills used by the monsters. This is the quickest fix I could think of for it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Just in case anyone is curious but not able to watch the vid for Guard the changes they showed off were:
All meditations are instant.
Focused Mind grants fury when a meditation is cast.
Purging flames cures 3 conditions now and reduces duration of incoming conditions.
Hallowed ground also increases boon duration now.
Chill has a new visual effect.

Most of which we already knew…

Ok, I was refraining from putting my opinion in here before but I think I will anyway. Honestly, I do not think buffing Virtue of Resolve is going to change much. I think it is just a bandage for a larger problem. Conditions.

The main form of mitigation for conditions that is available is condition removal but seeing as though the speed for reapplying conditions is so fast and the cooldowns on the removals are so long, we will not be able to keep up. Now we do have some runes that reduce condition duration as such but it is not enough to be game changing.

Seeing as though conditions bypass toughness/armor, Vitality and health regen is another possible way to mitigate the issue. I believe this is why the devs boosted healing signet as it counteracts conditions placed on the warrior and gives them a fighting chance against the high condi-based builds. Doing this, a warrior now can out heal a guard unless the guard is running an AH/EM build focused on regen. To do this, the warrior doesn’t need to invest many points to counteract the conditions so they do not sacrifice a ton of damage. Which is good for them.

The main issues that guards (myself and others in this thread) have with this is that it is seen as encroaching upon one of the main tenets of being a guard. We do not have a high health pool and our virtues are supposed to make up for it. Do they help? Yes. But do they help against conditions? Not so much. About two stacks of bleeding counteracts our virtue of resolve. (3 stacks of bleeding with Absolute Resolution). After our regen is taken over and our conditions removals are gone, we are dead.

Now bunker guards aren’t completely in trouble in PvP. So how do we open up the roles for guardians to do other things besides bunker? Yes, we could get more regen like the warriors but that might make bunker guards OP. My suggestion is: Condition damage reduction.

Guards are all about damage mitigation so it should fit right up our alley. Also, in order to not make bunker guards OP, it should be a trait in one of our offensive lines. I will suggest making it a Grandmaster in Zeal. I leave it to the devs to balance it as it could be a nightmare to balance.

Another idea but a trait could also potentially allow us to get 1% or 2% more damage per condition we have on us. If we have a ton of conditions on us we will go down fast anyways so its kind of like a last chance thing.

Another potential trait I thought of but not sure how well it would fit, if we kill a foe while we have all conditions on us all conditions are removed. I don’t wanna win a 1v1 against a condi guy just to go down after the fight.

Now all of these could be in 3 different traits or you could combine 2 (the last two seem to fit together well wink wink).

Now, honestly, I think the way that the devs are going is to make healing the way to counteract conditions this is fine and great and all for those guards who want to be healers but offensive guards need a way to mitigate conditions as well since an offensive guard usually has very, very little health.

Suddenflame.2601:

Kyle.3856:

Suddenflame.2601:

Kyle.3856:

Suddenflame.2601:

Kyle.3856:

new numbers:
snip

Now I got a question how much would it take to reach the warrior regen build assuming 1200h? Cause thats the pinacle of warriors ability to heal (1200 is roughly the number that allows warriors to still deal damage without sacrificing too much in the way of healing).

Not sure I really wanna do that… it’d just make me cry :’(

what would it take a guardian to get 900hp/sec?

900=391.3625+0.3140625h

h=1619.5422885572139303482587064677

A guard with 20 in virtues,15 in honor,10 in radiance,perma vigor,dodging every 5 seconds, and 1620 healing power heals for the 900.

With that build though…

With AH and 4 buddies and perfect conditions (20 in virtues, 30 in Valor, 10 in radiance, 10 in Honor it would be:
67.767857142857142857142857142315+0.00982142857142857142857142857135h + 105+.075h + 260.5625+0.0390625h
433.33035714285714285714285714231+0.123883928571428571428571428571h

900=433.33035714285714285714285714231+0.123883928571428571428571428571h
h=3766.9909909909909909909909910085

….ouch

So basically nearly impossible?

(10 radiance,30 in Valor,15 in honor)
84+.06h+25.8+.2h+260.5625+0.0390625h+67.767857142857142857142857142315+0.00982142857142857142857142857135h
438.13035714285714285714285714231+0.308883928571428571428571428571h
900=438.13035714285714285714285714231+0.308883928571428571428571428571h
h=1495.2854458736811677988148576423

Adding in EM and sigil of might (20 in honor and weapon sigil)
438.13035714285714285714285714231+0.308883928571428571428571428571h+5.5*(69+.01h)
438.13035714285714285714285714231+0.308883928571428571428571428571h+379.5+0.055h
817.6303571428571428571428571423+0.363883928571428571428571428571h
900=817.6303571428571428571428571423+0.363883928571428571428571428571h
h=228.09471230523862102809471230551

No we can do it with 10 radiance,30 in Valor,20 in honor and 228 healing power but with 60 trait points used, a sigil, dodging every 5 secs with perma vigor, enough crit chance to proc AH every second, 4 buddies within 600 range. This is without regen which we can get (but i dont think perma) plus we could potentially trait Writ of the Merciful also for more heals.

writ of the merciful
107+.075h

the point is though… how much do we have to invest to do it in comparison? Plus a lot of that is assuming perfect conditions.

Suddenflame.2601:

Kyle.3856:

Suddenflame.2601:

Kyle.3856:

new numbers:
snip

Now I got a question how much would it take to reach the warrior regen build assuming 1200h? Cause thats the pinacle of warriors ability to heal (1200 is roughly the number that allows warriors to still deal damage without sacrificing too much in the way of healing).

Not sure I really wanna do that… it’d just make me cry :’(

what would it take a guardian to get 900hp/sec?

900=391.3625+0.3140625h

h=1619.5422885572139303482587064677

A guard with 20 in virtues,15 in honor,10 in radiance,perma vigor,dodging every 5 seconds, and 1620 healing power heals for the 900.

With that build though…

With AH and 4 buddies and perfect conditions (20 in virtues, 30 in Valor, 10 in radiance, 10 in Honor it would be:
67.767857142857142857142857142315+0.00982142857142857142857142857135h + 105+.075h + 260.5625+0.0390625h
433.33035714285714285714285714231+0.123883928571428571428571428571h

900=433.33035714285714285714285714231+0.123883928571428571428571428571h
h=3766.9909909909909909909909910085

….ouch

Suddenflame.2601:

Kyle.3856:

new numbers:
snip

Now I got a question how much would it take to reach the warrior regen build assuming 1200h? Cause thats the pinacle of warriors ability to heal (1200 is roughly the number that allows warriors to still deal damage without sacrificing too much in the way of healing).

Not sure I really wanna do that… it’d just make me cry :’(

new numbers:

Caution maths ahead…
Where h is healing power:
Guardian
—————————————-
Virtue of Resolve 84+ .06h
assuming 150 h = 93 heals/s
adding in 25% duration for Absolute Resolution (20 in virtues)
116.25 heals/s

Selfless Daring (dodge heal) (15 in honor)
129+h
time to dodge
10 seconds w/out vigor
5 seconds w/ vigor
with perma vigor and 150 h
279/5 = 55.8 heals/s

Signet of Resolve
8338+1.25h 40s cooldown
8525.5 w/150 hp
213.1375 heals/s
32s cooldown with Signet Mastery trait (10 in radiance)
266.421875 heals/s
438.471875 total heals/second (with 20 in virtues 15 in honor and 10 in radiance and perma vigor/dodging when avail)

Solved for h
1.25*(84+.06h)(129h)/5+(8338+1.25h)/32=105+.075h+25.8+.2h+260.5625+0.0390625h=
391.3625+0.3140625h heals/second

Warrior
—————————————-
Adrenal health (15 in defensive line)
1 bar) 125+.15h
2 bar) 240+.15h
3 bar) 360+.15h
assuming 150 h
with 3 bars 382.5 heals/3s = 127.5 heals/s
with 1 bar 147.5 heals/3s = 49.166666666666666666666666666667 heals/s

Healing Signet
392+.05h
assuming 150 h = 399.5 heals/s

399.5+127.5= 527 heals/sec (with 15 in defensive line and a full adrenaline bar)

Calculating how much healing power a guard will need to equal a warriors healing with signet and adrenal health
527=391.3625+0.3140625h
135.6375=0.3140625h
h=431.88059701492537313432835820896

Summary:
A guard with 20 in virtues,15 in honor,10 in radiance,perma vigor,dodging every 5 seconds, and 432 healing power heals for the same amount as a warrior with 15 in defense and the healing signet equipped with full adrenaline.

I decided to take it a bit further for fun…

boons per second (shout cooldown included (10 in honor))
SYS
7/48=0.14583333333333333333333333333333 boons/s (1 person)

SYG
2/24=0.083333333333333333333333333333333 boons/s (1 person)
0.083333333333333333333333333333333*5=
0.416666666666666666666666666665 boons/s (with 5 people affected)

HtL
2/28=0.071428571428571428571428571428571 boons/s (1 person)
0.35714285714285714285714285714 boons/s (with 5 people affected)

Retreat
2/48=0.041666666666666666666666666666667 boons/s (1 person)
0.20833333333333333333333333333 boons/s (with 5 people affected)

best total for 3 shouts = 0.30059523809523809523809523809457 boons/s (self only)
best total for 3 shouts = 0.982142857142857142857142857135 boons/s (5 ppl affected)

AH
69+.01h heals this much per boon so
(boon/s)*(69+.01h)
20.741071428571428571428571428486+0.00300595238095238095238095238094h (with only yourself affected)
67.767857142857142857142857142315+0.00982142857142857142857142857135h (with 5ppl affected)

Adding to previous healing for guard (self daring,VoR w/AR,sig)
391.3625+0.3140625h + 67.767857142857142857142857142315+0.00982142857142857142857142857135h
459.13035714285714285714285714231+0.323883928571428571428571428571h

Comparing to warrior again
527=459.13035714285714285714285714231+0.323883928571428571428571428571h
67.8696428571428571428571428577=0.323883928571428571428571428571h
h=209.54927636113025499655410062226

Summary so far:
A guard with 20 in virtues,15 in honor,10 in radiance,perma vigor,dodging every 5 seconds, 30 in Valor w/AH, taking all shouts and using them as soon as available with 4 other people within 600 range and 210 healing power heals for the same amount as a warrior with 15 in defense and the healing signet equipped with full adrenaline. Also note that this assumes a guard can get an extra 5 trait points (30+20+15+10=75).

Suddenflame.2601:

Warrior Possible Healing Regen Build
Assuming full Adrenal Health

Healing Power: 0
Healing Signet = 392hp/sec
Regeneration = 130hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360hp/3sec = 120hp/sec
Generated Number = 642hp/sec

Healing Power: 170
Healing Signet = 392 + (0.05 * 170) = 401hp/sec
Regeneration = 130 + (0.125 * 170) = 151hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360 + (0.15 * 170) = 386hp/3sec = 129hp/sec
Generated Number = 681hp/sec

Healing Power: 600
Healing Signet = 392 + (0.05 * 600) = 420hp/sec
Regeneration = 130 + (0.125 * 600) = 205hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360 + (0.15 * 600) = 450hp/3sec = 150hp/sec
Generated Number = 775hp/sec

Healing Power: 1200
Healing Signet = 392 + (0.05 * 1200) = 452hp/sec
Regeneration = 130 + (0.125 * 1200) = 280hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360 + (0.15 * 1200) = 540hp/3sec = 180hp/sec
Generated Number = 912hp/sec

I am accounting constant regen due to Inspiring Battle Standard. This is used in a regen build.

Ahh… missed that Adrenal health is every 3 seconds… need to recalc mine

Kilandros.2098:

Grabbed this from the Warrior forums:

Suddenflame.2601:

snip

The big take aways:

1) With ~150 Healing Power (15 into Defense), Warrior can achieve over 900h/s. That’s 900h/s for 15 traits and 1 skill.

Looks like they are assuming constant regen as well… my numbers were only from two sources: Adrenal Health and Healing Signet with the minimum Healing power they have from 15 in defense (150 HP).

EDIT: Made a mistake calculating Adrenal healing… Will Post here anyway So others don’t look crazy for quoting me. Fixed in a later post.

Caution maths ahead…

Where h is healing power:

Guardian
—————————————-
Virtue of Resolve 84+ .06h
assuming 150 h = 93 heals/s
adding in 25% duration for Absolute Resolution (20 in virtues)
116.25 heals/s

Selfless Daring (dodge heal) (15 in honor)
129+h
time to dodge
10 seconds w/out vigor
5 seconds w/ vigor
with perma vigor and 150 h
279/5 = 55.8 heals/s

Signet of Resolve
8338+1.25h 40s cooldown
8525.5 w/150 hp
213.1375 heals/s
32s cooldown with Signet Mastery trait (10 in radiance)
266.421875 heals/s

438.471875 total heals/second (with 20 in virtues 15 in honor and 10 in radiance and perma vigor/dodging when avail)

Solved for h
1.25*(84+.06h)(129h)/5+(8338+1.25h)/32=105+.075h+25.8+.2h+260.5625+0.0390625h=
391.3625+0.3140625h heals/second

Warrior
—————————————-
Adrenal health (15 in defensive line)
1 bar) 125+.15h
2 bar) 240+.15h
3 bar) 360+.15h
assuming 150 h
with 3 bars 382.5 heals/s
with 1 bar 147.5 heals/s

Healing Signet
392+.05h
assuming 150 h = 399.5 heals/s

399.5+382.5= 782 heals/sec (with 15 in defensive line and a full adrenaline bar)

Calculating how much healing power a guard will need to equal a warriors healing with signet and adrenal health
782=391.3625+0.3140625h
390.6375=0.3140625h
h=1243.8208955223880597014925373134

Summary:
A guard with 20 in virtues,15 in honor,10 in radiance,perma vigor,dodging every 5 seconds, and 1244 healing power heals for the same amount as a warrior with 15 in defense and the healing signet equipped with full adrenaline.

Someone correct me if i mathed up

Broke on SoR too and overflows

Midnattsol.4503:

Seems perfectly fine when equipped on my Thief (Human) so does my buddy. However, when going invisible the area bugs out with 3 – 4 squares seen in one of the SS.

My guess in going invisible with the glow effect isn’t being registered.

Very annoying to see.

……….Umm…. Thieves cannot equip the legendary hammer Juggernaut…. :S Although, I admit it would be very cool to unstealth and send someone flying across the room

Bump… Still happening…

Same thing happens with the helm… but i guess that was a “no-brainer”….. (Pun intended)

bump…
Issue is still there…