Showing Posts For Marsuew.8216:
Well, there are tons of “nerf xxx plz” thread, even someone says zerker life blast is OP in Profession Balance forum.
If you really want Anet fix them as soon as possible, you should give more details, not pure complains. For example:
1. What profession and build you are playing?
2. What “decap engi” spec makes you feel need nerf?( there are 3~4 spec for decap engi)
3. How do you feel is hard to deal with a decap engi?
We know people say it’s “build wars”, just like necro can counter almost all condition build through send back conditions , thief can counter most of glass cannon build by stealth burst. It’s really important to tell Anet more details. If not, it becomes a complete complain thread.
That’s what stealth does.
If you don’t think “Basilisk Venom” strikes in stealth is a problem(thieves can keep stealth if you used block skill), then you shouldn’t feel any problem with stealth magnet pull. Engi’s stealth isn’t long, cast stability, random dodge after 1~1.5secs, trait, use environment to LoS or prevent pull, or AoE blind if you can. There are lots of way to deal with it, it’s not a unsolvable problem.
And mesmer’s pull is as same as stealth pull, since you can’t predict when you will get pulled, unless you ran away from it. Ranger’s LB pushback is hard to dodge too, you don’t know when he will use it.
I’ve tested with a friend decap engi in 1v1 room, a pure DPS build can kill decap engi really fast, for example, full zerker ele, one-shot thief, well necro, mix-damage engi, which can kill any bunker easily, including decap engi. Maybe that’s the counter build, but they also can be destroyed very very easily if they were being targeted in a team fight, so they are not viable, just like Valentin.2073’s full zerker ranger.
We can count decap engi as a “new meta” build, that’s mean it could be possible counter older meta builds efficiently.(though it’s not really new) That’s why devs keep watching is there any new build can counter decap engi, as same as hambow warrior. So the nerf won’t come that fast, unless no one found any chance to counter them.
And I hopes Devs are makeing some buff to other professions, not a nerf to engi, since those past nerfs to ranger and ele are really terrible.
Decap engi is only strong because 9 out of 10 players all player bunker in spvp solo q and team q. Yes its hard for a bunker to kill another bunker no matter what class. A thief shatter mesmer zerker ele etc can take a decap engi down in seconds. Nobody plays damage builds anymore though accept for a few thieves here and there.
Actually, there are tons of pure DPS build can kill decap engi easily, but also be killed by thief or shatter mesmer easily since they can stealth. And you know, almost team got a thief, so it makes harder to counter decap engis.
A decap engi have many strong way that makes bad players feel impossible to counter, such as:
1. Bomb Kit: easy kite melee attackers, and could keep spam AOE heal, not every profession got a viable range DPS build, so it makes decap engi 1v1 stronger than other bunkers.
2. CC: I’ve tried a decap engi use [Bomb kit- Tool kit- Elixir Gun], that means I got only 2 knockback from rifle and bomb kit, rifle sometimes LoS if that’s a good player, but still many ppl don’t know how to avoid that, same as Big O’l Bomb. Amount of CC skills isn’t the problem, I can also decap easily while I play condi-burst-engi, and it’s a strong 1v1 build.
3. AR: people thought its’ too strong, but actually useless if enemies only play power-based DPS. And if you met a condi-burst DPS which currently only necro and engi could do that, AR didn’t helps since decap engi didn’t got lot of condition removal.
4. Stealth: yeah, stealth, I don’t rely on AR since it’s really useless, and 25% is too dangerous if there’s a thief. With smoke field and rifle 5, you can easily got 3 secs stealth to escape, I tried to used it kiting a DPS guarian + a hambow warrior + a shatter mesmer, and not being killed.
Decap engi isn’t that strong, but in this meta, it’s hard to counter.
Why do engineers have a 3 second block on a 16 second recharge?
Why is it not a 30 second recharge?
Engineers, can do everything better.
Let the conditions run rampant!
1. A engi don’t get as same amount of HP ,armor, and passive heal as a warrior. And a engi don’t get as many evade skill from weapon as thief or ranger, don’t get second HP pool as necro or clones as mesmer.
2. A mace/ shield warrior got 2 blocks, one block melee only once with 10 secs recharge, the other one can block 3 secs every 24 secs/ 30 secs, or can be traited with reflect function.
3. Engi need 1 utility slot to get that 20 secs recharge block skill.
I don’t get where’s the logic that engi do everything better, don’t just comment with recharge time.
Ok i just met one of those op engie. And it’s crazy. 5 normal skilled players could not kill him. Why?
Passive healing. Bomb healing. Cleric kit. 3 sec toolkit invulnerability (block). Superior aoe damage that even the tankiest warrior can not facetank him.
AED!!!!!. Every 40 sec, such a burst of healing (15766 on hit tooltip). Nobody expects this, and they die because of it. Stunlocking barely keeps him at bay, he just burst more heals. When he meets you he used rifle to immobalize you wich is even more op. Dodging locked out.
And since when does bombs heal 354? That’s crazy powerfull. I haven’t used cleric with bombs, but i did use celestial trinkits one (total of 400 healing power) and they were still way below that on healing equation.
While any nerf, to kill this build will hit engineer hard (who is my main, and i’d like to keep it that way – fyi i left 4 other mains, because they were nerfed to much to my liking), I think YOU HAVE TO LOOK into this. Some pvp only nerfs must be set in place (like bomb healing). Blocking from toolkit. There must be a counter to it. It’s stronger then utility invulnerabilities AND way shorter cooldown. Combined with all of the above this is just madness. It also blocks stuns wich is lame. I mean c’mon, he’s finally in a weak spot, you can finally nail him, but then stuns dont work like they should. What’s left to kill him? Ultra zerging. Nothing else works. He outhealed 9 backstabs (and the other thief attacks on him), a warrior, guard, necro and ele. And they were all using their burst skills on him. This is close insanity. I then decided to ‘spectate him’. Guess what. His response time was arguably massively low. He made a lot of ‘micro’ mistakes. Like dodging to late, to early, using wrong kit at wrong time, failing to land pry bar, EVEN if enemy was immobalized. The list goes on. But this build is so crazy forgiving he survived ALL TRU it.
This can’t be the purpose of pvp Anet. He guarded one point in the next 3 matches, and nobody ever broke his ‘defend point’-parade. Well yeah they once managed to zerg him down, but he came back immediately with others on his side, to then burst the enemies again to pieces.
This build has no weakness. AT ALL. And this is coming from an engie who’s very scared for any nerfs. But in pvp (and i repeat pvp only, wvw/pve are way out of this), this combo is op. Because it can both protect cap point score, preventing enemy to kill you score AND add kill score to your team. This build does all the 3 possible ways in pvp to make your team win, and the enemy team fail. No other build, can do this at all. No build can protect the 3 ways to divide the score to your team so good. Every other build at least has openings to get killed. Weakness in either 1 vs 1 or in manipulating the pvp map (cap points). This doesn’t. No weakness at all. Only strengths.
Something has to be done about this, but I urge arenanet to stop the pvp/wvw downfall because of pvp nerfs. So (as an engie main, who often also plays pvp, but with a lot less complicated, healing/block powered build, by far not OP), I hope you take the right decision. This means, no pve/wvw nerfs (at all), but a serious lowering of the pvp staying power of engineer (with this specific build).
5 normal-skilled players? lol.
EIB is actually a active heal with bombs, so is definitely useless while being CCed or swap to other weapon. While a banner heal bunker warrior could get Healing Signet heals 453/sec, and get about total 800~900/sec passive heal (with 1223 healing power). And warrior have higher HP pool & armor, 2 stability and alot of CC skills with hammer/ mace+shield/Banner of Defense(1 AoE stun, 2 knockback, 1 knockdown, 1 daze, 2 block). It’s possible to a bunker warrior to counter with a decap engi, though those 2 knockback skills only push 180 range. (Rifle can push 400 range, but it’s not that good to a bunker warrior.)
A.E.D, is imposible to heal 15766 in PVP mode, its limit actually is 15097(with 1638 healing power).It’s easy to interrupt it since its 1 sec cast time and it’s not a good skill while you traited AR. Block also could be canceled by pull, unblockable fear/knockback(Warden skills, Throw Mine and Unsteady Ground)/stun(Static Field). If there’s any skilled thief/mesmer/guard/engi/warrior/ele/necro, it’s should be easy to kill him with “5” ppl.
Btw, if a decap Engi want to CC you with rifle or flamethower, they need face you first(despite using Big O’l Bomb and Throw Mine), so it’s possible to dodge/block/LoS rifle and flamethrower skills if they suddenly dodge/face you/use Gear Shield/stealth. But imo, maybe only those top-skilled ppl with lower ping can do that easily.
(edited by Marsuew.8216)
2.) Sure a axe/sword – bow Warrior will kill this type of engineer. But the fact you either give up utlities for stability (and the chance of a decap is still existing) makes the warrior not that powerfull compared to a hambow.
3.) Please, don’t refer an NA-Tournament as an argument to proove facts. That doesn’t work. A good engineer can hold extremly long in a 1v1. Also we don’t talk about top-teams only, but also lower-tiered teams, where such engineers have the biggest impact, because unexperienced teams don’t know how to handle/neutralize such builds.
4.) If you send a thief back you are outnumbered on mid. The only reason why teams can survive such situations is the reason of too much sustain (especially setups with warriors and rangers). In the burst-meta, no team was able to make such a rotation (Balance in gw2 these days is completely kittened up anyway).
7.) Again! The problem with decap-engis is that if you ever get knocked out of the point, they will immobilize instantly. Stunbreak doesn’t help on immobilize.
Really interesting, it comes to be a L2P issue after you try to explain it.
You said NA-Tournament doesn’t work to be a proof, so why don’t you get some? And what lower-tiered teams should be? A decap engi still need practice and knowledge, you can’t faceroll or just skill spam. You thought decap engi is much easier to learn but I don’t think so, you need practice to hit enemy successfully, and leran when to dodge and block since engi got less reliable break stun skills. A bad bunker engi falls really easily. In the video, you can see a DPS decap engi killed another bunker decap engi which his CC skills always missed, it’s hard to see so many miss in a “top-team” game, and AR didn’t helps.
Outnumbered is the same issue too, it’s a 5v5 game, not WvW. And it’s not a hold-home-and-mid game, you can’t always do this pattern, that’s what decap engi focuses. You still can win if you know what to do, complain can’t help you.
And Rifle has both launch and immobilize since released, so is AR (thought it’s bugged at first). Engi didn’t got any buff like warrior’s healing signet, so decap engi should have existed for a long time, but becomes a issue just recently.
Decap isn’t that difficult, even you spec DPS build can decap node, since bunker can’t kill a DPS easily. There’s a lot of unpredictable CC skills, for example:
-Pull: Into the Void (mes)
-Push: Shield of Absorption(guard), Rifle Butt, Kick(war), Point Blank Shot(ranger), Illusionary Wave(mes)
-Fear: Reaper’s Mark, Doom(necro), Fear me(war)
The problem should be you can’t kill a bunker easily, even it’s in a 2v1 situation, much harder than dealing with a decap DPS. I’ve tried decap ranger and decap warrior, since they got almost same amounts of short-cooldown push skills and have potential to play as a bunker, especially warrior, they got really strong passive heal now. I still got the result as a decap engi can do, decap/cap it, escape and heal, run back and deacp again.
So, the issue is really clear, is decap engi too tough to kill? Imo, engi is still easier to be killed than a bunker guard or a bunker warrior, maybe AR is too good while fighting a condition build.
I thought the idea of transfer conditions may make Surprise Shot too strong, since it’s a instant skill with only 7.5~10 secs cooldown. The idea of using toolbelt skills to clean conditions is good, but it’s Alchemy trait line. Maybe we can change AR to a stronger EG-related trait, like Juggernaut to FT, and for example:
1. Clean 2 condition every 10 secs while you equip EG, you also can swap to EG while you need clean conditions.
2. Use Super Elixir automatically while you suffer from 5 stacks bleeding, burning, confusion, or torment, 20 secs cooldown. It’s a healing circle, so you need to force engi leave the circle to counter. It matches the concept that engineers are good in take control of an area.
3. Use Toss Elixir R automatically you are downed, 60 secs cooldown, and you can clean a condition every 3 secs while standing in a light field. This trait is similar to Circle of Life(ranger), since rally also clean conditions. And with this trait, you can use EG to keep clean conditions, and live longer in a team fight with teammates’ support. (Or die easily from AoE spam when you try to stay in a light field.)
4. Fumigate affects you as well now.
Maybe we can combine them, like 1+2, or 2+4, it won’t be too strong since it becomes a skill-binding grandmaster triat. And you can play more actively, stay in a circle, or use skill to clean conditions, even it’s in PvE/WvW, so you won’t feel it fixed just because too strong in PvP.
(edited by Marsuew.8216)
I never said they use them all together, the skills themselves are overpowered on their own for the fact they are instant with 0 counter play. Look at solo queue, 75% of Engineer are using bomb, grenade, and Tool Kit with a pistol/shield and spamming every skill possible. The other 23% is using Decap with rifle, flamethrower, bomb, and either Tool Kit or Throw Mine. 1.9% are using Accelerant-Packed Turrets and the other .1% must be non-existent since I just needed a percentage for the ones I haven’t seen. The age of Engineer taking any skill at all to play is over and now the spam and non-aggression play styles reigns supreme.
A [Bomb-Granade-Tool] 3 Kits engi is easy to counter, range weapon, condition(especially confusion), CC skill, and area retaliation, all of them works. It’s not that strong if he just spam skills. But that’s not important since this is a decap engi thread.
Those CC skills, you can dodge, evade, around-the-back, block, blind, stability, stay range, or CC the engi faster(if they don’t get BS skills), there’s a lot of way to counter play. Only if you don’t know what to do, just stay front of him and being controlled, then you feel there’s no counter play.
And the most important, there’s other class to do what decap engi could, like bunker ranger, get CC skills as much as engi, but with stronger condition removal and more protection by dodge, ranger even get more, 12 secs cooldown block from range, and Drakehound area immobilize every 16 secs with knockdown every 36 secs. Since the game mode makes us need to defend nodes, every bunker with decap skill should be involved.
Edited:
What decap ranger I said is just like this.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQJARTjEV91JWCWg2Bi2jMZJM9e0qY1eXhRVwmK-TgAgzCmIASBkDIDQyds7A
Greatsword is hard to counter, auto-attack got free evade. Counterattack (GS#4) is 12secs cooldown, if you attack in melee will being kicked out node, if you stay range, it will be a 3secs block, while pet keeps attacking you. Point Blink Shot (LB#4) is 15secs cooldown hard-to-see knockback skill. If he feels pressure, Ranger can use Hunter’s Shot(LB#3) to gain stealth and run. Krytan Drakehound area immobileze every 16 secs, Wolf area fear every 36 secs, and they both have knock down every 36 secs. This ranger clean a condition and trans 3 conditions to pet every 10 secs , hard to use condition to burn ranger’s HP. Trans CC skill to pet every 90 secs. Got passive heal and self-res, what more? You can gain protection from dodge and rune. It’s much harder to counter than a decap engi.
If you feel decap engi is ridiculously strong in conquest game mode, then every bunker with decap skill should be involved, not only decap engi.
(edited by Marsuew.8216)
Overcharged shot is a 3 second knockdown and 450 knockback with an instant cast. Slick Shoes is an instant knock down, Magnetic Inversion is an instant knockback and Air Blast is an instant knockback.
Also to the other guy the reason I’m mentioning them is because he was talking about Engineer being unable to do good damage with those CC.
Yeah I already mentioned the shield and FT knockback. I forgot about rifle but my point still stands there because you also get knocked back so it’s not like you can really burst your target down after it and again there is distance between you and the target unlike with hammer knockdowns. Slicks Shoes is instant but like I said before, if an engi goes near you then it’s trouble. And if an engi gets you with slick shoes because you were meleeing him, is that not a fair defense?
You still havent explained how this is a real balance issue here. You can’t mess with engi CC to nerf bunker decap without hurting Engis overall. Or are you saying engi as a whole is imbalanced?
The self knockdown is only a second so you have 2 seconds of him being in knockdown while you aren’t. The problem is all those skills are instant and instant CC should not even exist in this game since there is 0 counter play. Engineer has no problems getting in melee range for Slick Shoes. Engineer as a whole is imbalanced with its instant CC/lack of animations and spammable AoE conditions with ridiculous survivability in the current two meta builds that every sheep is using.
Also they actually have more in the form of Accelerant-Packed Turrets giving instant CC per turret.
Well, what decap engi you are talking about? Engi can’t equip Rifle and Shield at tha same time. You can’t get Overcharged Shot and Magnetic Inversion together.
Review your post, you said engi can bring Bomb Kit, Flamethrower, Mine, Net Turret, Slick Shoes, what engi you met? Please define what engi you are talking about. Accelerant-Packed Turrets? What his traits? And it’s not worth to put it first and detonate it for just a knockback. You also just said zerker engi deals a lot of damage, is that a decap engi? That’s just a DPS build, but can easily be killed too.
Please stop complaining that you can’t kill engis easily, you don’t even know how engis play.
what kind of build are you talking about? can someone link me?
are you talking about a bunker build?
0/0/20/30/20?
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUlIq6Zn1yuF17IxoCdO0jCbf1K6R+tsjB-TgAgzCmIMSZkzIjRSjsGB
So, there’s no 3 secs block on 20/16 secs cooldown, no boon removal mines , and without Protection Injection, it’s easy to kill him with CC skills.
And if the engi bring [Bomb kit-flamethrower-Mine] or [Bomb-Flamethrower-Toolkit], he don’t get a break stun, and less heal, kill him with CC and win.
If he bring [Bomb kit- Tool kit- Elixir Gun], he only get one knockback on rifle, and BOB is easy to avoid it, so there’s no CC spam, but maybe heal/ block spam. So just like trying to kill a decap guard or a decap ranger(longbow knockback, greatsword knockback, or wolf fear), you should always need at least 2 ppl to kill a bunker.
I don’t know why ppl discuss like engi can bring 5 slot skills, a decap engi isn’t that strong unless you don’t know how to combat with him. There’s even one said a decap engi got 4 instant CC skills, how?
(edited by Marsuew.8216)
I think what makes a decap engi needs to be defined in this thread. I seem people talking about obvious animations for the cc. Decap engi is not a bomb or bomb/nade engi. They rely on instant cc which is why its so hated. Ar is stupid and needs to be reworked but the decap engi problem is about terrible skill design. Hard to avoid getting knocked of point if everything is instant cast. No one cries about hammer guardian’s in kylo debunking people because banish is an obvious cast. If you got debunked it was because you suck or screwed up.
Yeah, should define it first, it looks like every engi with rifle or flamethower could be called decap engi now.
But instant CC didn’t make them need to fight 2v1, since engi primary can’t conquer conditions, CC skills, and range attack very well. It should be easy to kill engi when you using CC skill combined with spike damage, I’ve seen thief, condi necro, hambow warrior, and mesmer could kill decap engi 1 by 1. You also can stay range to make him retreat, those instant CC only have 300~400 range, or stop him when he trying to approach nodes. Some parties even ignore the decap engi, take their home or win the mid, since decap engi party need to send their home defender to avoid losing mid 3v4.
And imo, fighting with 25%HP is a bad idea. Automated Response just makes escape easier, but engi can stealth himself, that makes AR isn’t that important.
You still can maintain 3~5 vuln to Boss from Bomb Kit auto attack, or 7~10 to mobs. You also can uses Grenade Barrage every 24 secs ,Mine Field every 16secs, or Analyze every 24 secs to stack more vuln. I can’t say it’s better or worse than necro, but bomb engi can still might and vuln stacking .
Well, you can test it. Bomb Kit auto hit about 66 times in a minute, nearly 0.9 pet hit, while grenades hit 60 times in a minute, even if you use instant cast. And Bomb Kit auto efficient is 1.25, 25% more damage than Grenade Kit #1. My math isn’t very good, but I tried to calculate it just like you did in the Necro’s thread, and it reaches 10K.
No i believe its a bit lower even when including conditions. Which seems right based on the cast times and actual numbers you see compared to other classes. I cant find the post but guang did some numbers and it was like 13k dps for eles and thieves, 12-10k for the others. Ranger and engi were at 9k, with ranger slightly higher than engi. I dont know the exact buffs and conditions used to calculate these values, but they were done under the same assumptions for comparison.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guardians-in-Dungeon-Runs
If it is this thread, Guang uses “Engineer: 30/5/0/10/25 P/S with Grenade Kit” to calaulate DPS. But Bomb Kit should have much more DPS, its skill coefficient and attack speed are better than grenades. And I don’t know why there are 10 points in Alchemy, since it didn’t give much DPS boost. Guardian uses 10/30/30/0/0, so it can’t be traited for vigor. Or I missed something that you guys think an engineer shouldn’t use Bomb KIt to maximize damage output?