2 Truths:
1) PvP population is low
2) PvP is conquest
Summation: Not many people stick around for conquest
Now we have a ‘new mode’, but how can we get the most out of it? Let’s force the remaining PvP population, and new-comers, to keep playing conquest for a random chance to play stronghold. -_- And no: we’re not giving them templates. That would eliminate the need for players to buy additional character slots just to circumvent having to respec in 90 seconds while discussing battle plans with their team, and that’s definitely SOME money lost. Can’t have that.
Besides: although it’s being marketed as such, stronghold isn’t that much different of a mode than conquest, so tell these fools to QQ. It’s still 5v5, it’s still based around PvE elements. Listen, my boss was like: “mobas, so hot right now”, and a couple of kids in the PvP forums were like “turn GW2 pvp into a moba! esportz! yeah!”, so we did it. We’re playing to both sides here, so don’t act like the remaining players are too good to sit through the same old crap they have been for 2 1/2 years just to get a taste of GvG… I mean mobaquest… I mean stronghold.
Also, whatever you do, don’t add in dueling, 2v2, or 3v3: it makes balancing issues stand out more, and some casuals may not win every match, thus quitting. That’s just bad business, man. It’s 5v5 or die: that way, no one can really keep track of all the crap going on in conquest OR courtyard, and no feelings get hurt. So what if they all blame each other, get frustrated and quit: we’ll just act like they need to evolve.
O man that strawpoll is ironic.
*I think it’s quite natural for many of the people left still playing GW2 pvp to enjoy modes with pve elements, because that’s all we’ve ever had. Still, a significant portion want 2v2/3v3, and are afraid we’re just getting more of the same.
Good write up. I would say that 2v2 and 3v3 could be both more casual and competitive in that groups and games will be much easier to form, with fewer objectives, making it more straight-forward and approachable.
I might have phrased the poll question as “which game mode will have a bigger impact on population” or “…variety”. And I might have said “2v2/3v3 best of 3 rounds, no respawn”. But solid effort.
But think about the potential income of PVPers! We could take part of the population from WoW’s arena base who would love this type of freedom and skipping the leveling process. And bring back old GW2 players and convert at least some PVErs. I thinks a bit short sighted to just think it’d be fracturing the player base, when in reality you could just be growing it. Bringing in more players and ex players could do wonders for both arena AND conquest populations at once.
It isn’t off the table, and we have most of the tech for it. I expect at some point we will do it, just not now. I don’t know when either.
Edit: This isn’t a promise we’ll do these type of arenas, just my opinion based off of previous discussions with the team. We may never do them, or we may do something like them. Nothing is planned at this point.
2v2 and 3v3 is all I’ve ever wanted for pvp since launch. We’ve gotten tournaments, leaderboards, various rewards, achievements, spectating, solo-que on and off again, 4 new maps, and many balance patches, but I believe the pvp population is still quite modest. Now we’ll get a new GvG mode, but it could be closer to PvE or WvW than Arenas.
PvP in GW2 is conquest: a mode where the most impactful thing you can do is gang up on the opponent. It’s no fun when it happens to you, and it’s not really that enjoyable to do to the enemy for many gamers, but it’s generally commonplace for most players and matches. People get real tired of that after a while, and I for one end up wishing there was just a way to have a fair fight. I think this is a major reason many people don’t stick with GW2 pvp, and yet many of us that are left would love to see 2v2 and 3v3, as we’ve been asking for it for over 2 years now.
2v2 and 3v3 Arenas could be a key avenue for allowing new pvp players to focus on learning the basics of class abilities and interactions. Honestly, I feel this should have been in place from the beginning as a sort of foundation, or buffer, to the complex communication and organizational demands of a mode like conquest. It’s much easier for players to group in 2’s and 3’s, reducing the groupfinding barrier by a large factor. Without several objectives, their will inherently be less need for leadership, planning, communication, and voip. While those are all good things, they’re more suited for advanced, dedicated groups; not pugs, not soloers, and not really duos or trios amongst strangers in a party of 5, amirite? Without high levels of organization, conquest just lends itself to frustration and confusion.
Anet, I implore you to consider 2v2 and 3v3’s to grow the pvp player base if the population doesn’t begin to rightfully increase after a reasonable exposure time to GvG. The combat is too exciting, the game too beautiful, and the fans too ardent not to have a more wide-spread appeal in the realm of pvp gaming. Give the future and current player base a good foundation to grow on. Embrace a lower common denominator. Honor pure battle.
(edited by Master Charles.7093)
People have been clamoring for 2v2 and 3v3 since launch, and honestly, I still don’t know why they won’t embrace it. It feels like the stance is ‘5v5 voip or nothing’. (And don’t get me started on not needing voip and still being competitive.) I can only speculate as to why they won’t establish a mode like this, with one CLEAR objective, that presents an opportunity for groups with a lower common denominator, that actually wouldn’t be so demanding of voip. My speculation has always been that they simply don’t want to put balance under an even tighter microscope, because some classes are just plain better at 1v1’s, hands down. But there’s the ’everyone’s just gonna wait to pop their elites’ excuse, and the esports excuse, and the now moot fractured player base excuse, and on and on…
So you built (and balanced) pvp around happenstance battles between 10 men scattered across 3 points… sorry, but it feels like we put the cart before the horse, honestly. Most people get sick and tired of getting the rare opportunity of having that close 1v1 or 2v2 fight on point, only for it to be ruined in no contest fashion by inc’s that easily decide the sway of battle.
What so many others who have come and gone feel this game truly needs to build a solid pvp base is a mode where there aren’t 5 different objectives for each teammate to make up his mind on, and communicate about, in a matter of seconds. Conquest is a complex mode for 5 man teams who have already established leadership, communication, build synergy, familiarity with playstyles, and yeah: voip. Face it, without those things, it’s mostly just randomness and unbalanced battles all over the friggin’ map, over and over.
As far a courtyard goes: 5v5 deathmatch is a mess. It’s cumbersome and tedious to switch to some niche build (without templates) in a conquest que, on the fly for that scenario, assuming you’ve even made 1 special build just for that map. Look how chaotic and incomprehensible a 10 man brawl is. Face it: no one can REALLY tell everything that’s going on.
tldr; Something’s been missing from pvp for a long time (look at population), and now more than ever it feels we’ve embraced 5man teams (pug or otherwise) over all solo players out there. Try a mode with one clear objective, that requires less people, less voip, and less staunch organization and planning. One that just embraces pure battle, with consistently even numbered fights. Few people come here to kill pve monsters. Few people come here to stand in circles. Give players a foundation to learn class synergy, skill rotations, and straight combat before expecting to reach esports or even widespread pvp customer satisfaction with such highly structured, objective-based and team-forming demands.
Look, it boils down to this. All of us started out from being complete and utter garbage at this game, not much different from you, I imagine.
The few people that made it to top tier teams and are actively, and consistently, winning tournaments didn’t do it by QQing. They did it by learning from their failures and getting better.
When we lost to a particular class or build, we rolled that class, played that build for a few games, figured out its weaknesses and learned how to beat it with our existing knowledge of our favorite class. Nobody is telling you to reroll indefinitely, people have clearly told you how to get better at the game. Look at the present mechanics, and learn how to counterplay them.
As a point of reference, in any game of mechanical skill, there will always be player skill disparity. For example, I’m sure if I ran into you in a solo queue (or a hotjoin) I could play a sword/fist warrior and still beat you. It’s not because you’re bad, it’s not because sword/fist is OP or cheating, it’s because I have played every class extensively and I know how to counter them.
That being said, with enough proficiency, certain players adapt a different playstyle that masks the weaknesses of the class and highlights its strengths. As such, you can see some really good players playing non-meta builds and still eating noobs for breakfast.
So yea, you can keep typing 4 paragraph essays every other hour and MAYBE you’ll get a dev that feels sorry enough for your stupid kitten to post a metric that isn’t even relevant to how the game works… Or you could spend that time rolling the other class, reading its skills and hitting a light golem a few times to figure out how those skills work.
Up to you, either way, this QQ isn’t helping anybody, least of all, you.
Wow, man: that’s pretty toxic. You’re calling this guy ‘utter garbage’ and a ‘stupid kitten ’ because he posted his opinion. It’s easy to see that you’re putting this guy down so that you can feel special and strong.
Truth is, only a few thousand people play your little pvp game now, and it’s not ‘cause leaderboards, or mmr, or rewards, or spectators, or lack of esportz support, the lack of more than one game mode, or any other confused, distractionary bs: it’s because of balance. Even in conquest, when it’s 1v1 on a point and people get facerolled by invisible, untargetable garbage just because they didn’t delete 2 of their characters or buy more slots to roll and study the stealth classes for hours or days on end, it’s enough to make most people wanna quit. (obviously)
The fact that you don’t have to study other classes for hours just to be competent against them should speak for itself. And besides, when is the last time you heard of a dominant warrior or necro duelist? They’re aren’t any, because all the other classes are hands-down better at 1v1, whether it’s on point during conquest, or in a custom arena. And thus, no dueling mode.
How many balance changes have been made so far? I assure you, there will be more, yet there will always be people like you screaming L2P and QQ moar when people try to talk about balance, so that they can protect their cheese and feel smart.
Your comments are out of line, and your personal character is weak. Get humble, son.
I love and hate courtyard, and here’s why:
Respawn issue aside, 5v5 (10 players) is just too big for TDM.
With 10 players at the same spot, the stomping and rezzing mechanics really start to take a back seat to just plain old aoe and cleave dmg. It’s much more viable in a 10 player skirmish to just burn people down instead of making yourself a vulnerable target by trying to stomp or rez.
No player can keep their eyes on 9 others at one time, or even all 5 of their opponents. Add in particle effects, aoe, cleave, mass stealth, AI, blinking, and shared boons, and you’ve got a big, happenstance, incomprehensible clusterphuck. 4-5 people can stunlock and focus down a player in 2-3 seconds with absolutely no recourse, and it’s even more frustrating when they do it from stealth.
I’d speculate that fights like this are a big part of the reason why people don’t vote for spirit watch much: that big mess right at the orb. And yet, people consistently vote for Courtyard in strong numbers: why? Because we’ve been clamoring for TDM since day one, and we’re sick of conquest.
Conquest is a mode that requires serious strategy, leadership, high-level play, and voip to be much more than just a bunch of random 1v2s, 2v3s, 3v4s, and 4v5s spread out across 3 points on a big map. It’s a game of running away when you’re outnumbered, and ganging up on those who don’t. At some point (day 1), I just wanted an even fight with everybody on the same page; not running across the map to decap far because they’re actually too afraid to engage, or bailing on the team to chase some pve gimmick.
And about making a bigger map for TDM: I don’t think it’s necessary. I feel it’ll just create the same uneven fights we get in conquest spread out all over the map, just without the nodes.
TL;DR : 2v2 and 3v3 TDMs are much more fun, shoutable, and comprehensible. 10 man brawls are not ideal with this game’s combat speed and mechanics. Embrace a more common lowest denominator with a mode that doesn’t require 5 people in voip being on the same page just to truly compete. With 2v2 and 3v3 TDM, simply kill the enemy while working with 1 or 2 teammates.
- Perhaps you could flesh out TDM ques with these varying team sizes, and/or a couple more small maps.
Basically everything you said here is 10 players doesn’t work because people are too lazy to adjust their builds and comp to win. There are a couple classes with invul stomps…no need to take damage. If you aren’t running it on this map then you are running a selfish build. It’s all about getting the stomp & rezes off. Classes that don’t have “safe stomp” should cleave to keep enemy players from rezing. How is any of this different from a 4v4 at mid point 75% of the game? Rez, burn targets & stomp. Same exact mechanics besides there isn’t a point under your feet and allows you to fall back or push forward when need.
Basically, no: that’s not everything I said. Most people need to be talking about strategy rather than trying to focus on and change their whole build in the 90 seconds before courtyard starts anyway. And those 4v4s at mid 75% of the game? They’re generally clusterf’s too, and most games are decided by who wins the first big battle at mid anyhow, sending the opposing team scrambling to far or a pve gimmick. So you popped stability and invulnerability to stomp one guy? Too bad: mass stealth just happened. And each guy in the fight just multiplies the chaos. Again, tone it down to something more comprehensible, plz.
I like courtyard, but 10 man brawls are just too chaotic.
You’re really on the verge of something here, Anet. Please just make TDM comprehensible with the more common denominators of 2v2 and 3v3.
I love and hate courtyard, and here’s why:
Respawn issue aside, 5v5 (10 players) is just too big for TDM.
With 10 players at the same spot, the stomping and rezzing mechanics really start to take a back seat to just plain old aoe and cleave dmg. It’s much more viable in a 10 player skirmish to just burn people down instead of making yourself a vulnerable target by trying to stomp or rez.
No player can keep their eyes on 9 others at one time, or even all 5 of their opponents. Add in particle effects, aoe, cleave, mass stealth, AI, blinking, and shared boons, and you’ve got a big, happenstance, incomprehensible clusterphuck. 4-5 people can stunlock and focus down a player in 2-3 seconds with absolutely no recourse, and it’s even more frustrating when they do it from stealth.
I’d speculate that fights like this are a big part of the reason why people don’t vote for spirit watch much: that big mess right at the orb. And yet, people consistently vote for Courtyard in strong numbers: why? Because we’ve been clamoring for TDM since day one, and we’re sick of conquest.
Conquest is a mode that requires serious strategy, leadership, high-level play, and voip to be much more than just a bunch of random 1v2s, 2v3s, 3v4s, and 4v5s spread out across 3 points on a big map. It’s a game of running away when you’re outnumbered, and ganging up on those who don’t. At some point (day 1), I just wanted an even fight with everybody on the same page; not running across the map to decap far because they’re actually too afraid to engage, or bailing on the team to chase some pve gimmick.
And about making a bigger map for TDM: I don’t think it’s necessary. I feel it’ll just create the same uneven fights we get in conquest spread out all over the map, just without the nodes.
TL;DR : 2v2 and 3v3 TDMs are much more fun, shoutable, and comprehensible. 10 man brawls are not ideal with this game’s combat speed and mechanics. Embrace a more common lowest denominator with a mode that doesn’t require 5 people in voip being on the same page just to truly compete. With 2v2 and 3v3 TDM, simply kill the enemy while working with 1 or 2 teammates.
- Perhaps you could flesh out TDM ques with these varying team sizes, and/or a couple more small maps.
Ok, correction: spvp is the meaningless factor isn’t it? And yet tpvp is really just a battle with a negligible prize at the end. Maybe you’re concerned about ladders, maybe you need that glory, or maybe your team is counting on you and people are watching, so I’ll talk in less absolute terms.
Sure, the score in tpvp isn’t meaningless, but the importance, gratification, and fun of being able to beat someone 1v1 is paramount for many players. Besides, killing someone single-handedly is also a fundamental and rewarding group strategy: it scores points for your team, and reduces the battle to 5v4 for at least a moment.
Don’t get me wrong, I hate trolls and that’s not what I’m here to do, but you can’t tell me the warrior really has a unique, important place in pvp, and that’s because my pvp game has poor balance. “You’re just totally wrong” and “he’s a hotjoin hero” isn’t going to debunk my entire opinion.
There is no 1v1 because balance isn’t good at all, due to a pve design.
The go-to excuse is “It’s a team game, with objectives”, but I’m not buyin’ it.
I don’t like any game where a player can kill me just because he chose one class and I chose another. And 1v1’s are at least a momentary factor in conquest.
It goes like this: thieves and mesmers faceroll people with little skill involved, then they say: “Oh, but I can’t hold a point because of stealth, so you really win”
In reality, they (like most) don’t care about the meaningless conquest scores, they just wanna beat and destroy the hell out of people, and they do.
Ele’s traits are jacked up in correspondence with this heal ability
The trait ‘Signet Mastery’ does not work with ‘Signet of Restoration’
You can have a different heal ability equiped and mouse over Sig of Rest and it shows the 20 second cd, but after you apply it, it reverts to the 25 second cd and doesn’t apply the correct heal #‘s. It also doesn’t work correctly with the trait ‘Written in Stone’ where you should be able to maintain your passive signet effect, but instead are granted a 20 second passive effect buff… fix this, along with the dodgeroll que.
(edited by Master Charles.7093)
Thanks for the verification, BlackBeard. Much appreciated.
I’ve also went into a couple of battles with signet of fire and water, using W.i.S., and didn’t get the passive effects until AFTER I activated them. I checked the hero screen to verify: precision/crit chance not affected. It only happens sometimes… =(
(edited by Master Charles.7093)
anyone else getting this?
When I choose another heal, then open the heal ability menu (with Signet Mastery trait), I can mouse over the signet of restoration as to select it, and it will show the correct cooldown (20 seconds down from 25) but when I apply it, it reverts to 25…
It’s also not working with the trait Written in Stone, where I should be able to maintain heals upon casting.
edit: now when I use Signet of Restoration with the traits Signet Mastery and Written in Stone it’s still on a 25 second cd , but I get a 20 second passive effect buff… it’s like the passive effect got a cd (reduction) but the activation cd did not. The passive healing numbers are also not applying correctly according to the tooltip.
(edited by Master Charles.7093)
I’m sorry, but when I see threads/posts like this, I start thinking PR campaign.
It is painfully obvious there are 1-2 dominant builds on each class, most of which are cheap. Hell, most people argue that warrior has NONE, and would almost certainly agree that he belongs in a burst spec and must use Greatsword. -lame-
Balance here goes like this: out of the 100’s of builds a player can make, you either:
A) Copy and paste one of the few cheese builds for each class and start dominating
or
B) Try something else and get wrecked in utter futility
Not only is build diversity a huge problem, but the 5% of builds that are OP haven’t even been balanced unto each other properly. It has a lot to do with failed mechanics such as A.I., stealth, and huge disparities in boon stacking, conditions, cleanses, mobility, ect…
This, combined with the fact that conquest is an inherently unbalanced format that supports the extreme bunker build and cowardly playstyles such as zerging and running away due to someone constantly being outnumbered, has ruined pvp.
As for me being a hater, I hate that my pvp game is pretty much dead, and that they didn’t listen to all the logical feedback back when the population was at critical mass.
Well there was that cute little buff that allows turning people into a bird that can’t get away on the move. I guess it wasn’t enough to just remove people from the battle for 10 seconds: they had to be easily humiliated and destroyed.
It seems obvious that all the classes were NOT created equally, because they were created for PvE. They took a bunch of ideas for classes, sprinkled conditions unevenly across their weaponsets, tossed in some attributes in the trait lines (that either have great synergy or don’t) and made a PvE game. Then they tacked on a single-format PvP style and tried to cash in on e-sports. They’re a LONG ways off from balancing the classes because the systems they are based on are inherently nonequivalent.
Yeah, mesmers are just the way they are, like when someone tells you ‘just because’, but that doesn’t make it right or fair. It’s a cop out. So is: ‘get somemore skill’, ‘oh, you can do this and this and this’, and ‘they melt in a team fight’. Amazingly, I’m not seeing it much here, but I’m really tired of seeing people say ‘Yeah Phantasm Mesmers dominate 1v1, but in a team fight, it’s all fair’. No it’s not. If anything it’s worse. So what if one of your teammates can scorch the earth and destroy all their clones with some huge aoe, they spam them just as fast as they are destroyed (and they don’t just fall over with one hit anyway). More over, with that much chaos on the screen, its even harder to track them, AND if you ever got frustrated with clones running body blocks for the mesmer, enjoy them blocking for a whole team on a node. The second time someone on the opposite team cc’s you, you’re gonna eat all those clone attacks.
The whole class is inherently broken. They should have more direct damage moves, less clone spamming, and possibly not stealth at all. Unfortunately, I don’t believe the devs have the incentive or leash-range to make the big changes necessary to put them on an even playing field. Not even considering the unfun format of conquest, balancing disparities alone put this game far out of reach from e-sports (which I personally couldn’t care less about). I just want a fun game with fair fights, and mesmers ruin this game for me (and others) far and away more than any other class. And yeah, I made mine about 7 months ago: it doesn’t matter if you know all their moves and exactly what they can do, they simply out-class every other profession. You’ve got an uber ele or BM build that can survive anything and gets S tier sometimes?: doesn’t make it right or equal.
(edited by Master Charles.7093)
I don’t know how else to tell you this guy, but it happens in the middle of combat, so it is not working correctly.
Unfortunately, your response is not helpful but misleading. Thank you anyway.
ok man… i wasn’t trying to be rude to you, and for that, i apologize, but here’s how it works:
I can fill my adrenaline in the mists or immediately after spawning and it will stay full, except when it glitches out, then it immediately dissipates no matter what. I can be in the middle of battle and it will do that, yet other times, I can fill it and run around not engaging anyone for several minutes and it doesn’t happen… where is the logic in that?
no its not normal because it happens every other time immediately after respawn. it is a glitch, but thanks for your confusing input
wtf. I main a warrior and use healing surge to fill my adrenaline bar, and it immediately starts depleting about every other time I respawn.
(edited by Master Charles.7093)
Everyone I know left because of crappy balance and this one mode (conquest) being crammed downed our throats until it becomes a moneymaking e-sport.
@Jportell: I’m not trying to talk bad about mesmer players, I’m just trying to state my opinion about the game. I understand you play a mesmer, but don’t try to make me out to be a bad sport. Naturally the game isn’t perfect, but you’re quoting me every time I speak about your class like it is. It’s getting old, man.
Also, warrior is the only class with no a.i., and I don’t use a greatsword with mine. Again, I play all 8 classes. Regardless, I’m trying to talk about the game, not our merit or playstyles.
Mesmers are the cheapest, most garbage class I have ever seen in a game.
Could be that most people got mesmer tyranny fatigue in the first few months and just gave up on raising the issue in the forums. They’re obviously incapable of reworking the class, or even adjusting the a.i. correctly.
Any time you have that many targets on screen, you’re going to mess up, but especially when the player is blinking, stealthing + dropping target, ccing, and/or spending so much time invulnerable. Time in battle is too important. You can’t be expected to watch or kill all that a.i., and yet they’re going to end up naturally body blocking attacks. Minion Nec’s are almost as bad, it’s just a different flavor of a broke a.i. mechanic. You can’t have 3 to 6 additional targets hitting you that hard (or that spammable) and expect people to find it fun or fair to fight against.
This class absolutely junks out the battlefield and the game by default, and while I don’t care about e-sports, I think few enjoy watching the chaotic, incoherent bs they bring on an exponential level to every skirmish. The onus is just too big and automatic, and no one should have to jump through all the hoops of identifying builds and dealing with all that fire-and-forget trash just to fight back.
I think the class designs have some serious flaws, like the amount of a.i., out of control boons, over-the-top condi builds you can never out-cleanse, huge mobility disparities, and obsolete weapons/utilities.
My guess is: they believe if they made a duel mode it would just make all these things even clearer to the pvp community, and then people would call even louder for balance, and quit even faster when it doesn’t happen. Conquest serves to obfuscate things with chaos, uneven numbers in battle, and objectives. I’m betting this is why they also won’t allow TDM, arenas, or gvg.
At this point, it’s reasonable to doubt they’ll make any serious changes. Looks like the few pvp devs are mainly being paid to string us along with SOTG, ambiguous posts, and limp-wristed balancing rather than making significant changes. The proper class and ability reworks would have a big impact on pve, and it’s obviously just not worth the risk or effort.
Now we’re left with halfassery caving in on itself because people who do AND don’t want to duel are getting screwed with in the 10 man servers.
continued…
“Team Deathmatch limits roles and in doing so, limits builds. This also leads into some professions being shunned in teams because there is no mainstream build for them. Other game formats, like Conquest offer additional roles such as area control, both defensive (bunker builds) and offensive (trap rangers, necros), mobility vs static, etc. In general, any format that favors balling up and entire team is bad.”
The same can be said for conquest. Conquest created bunkers, then burst. TDM would support a dynamic for balanced builds. Conquest requires someone to stand in one place: how fun is that? Admittedly, mobility disparities could be a factor in TDM, but they are even more so in conquest, where people are expected to run from point to point, always having an incentive to disengage from battle.
“Balance is put under a microscope in Team Deathmatch. Because of limited roles and playstyles and the relatively short time in which most matches are decided, balance between professions is crucial. In an RPG where skill variety and profession identity is important, it’s near impossible to achieve this. On the other hand, the conquest format reduces the burden of balancing by providing alternative strategic decisions to overcome some profession imbalances. Balance still matters, but it doesn’t need to be as tight as for Team Deathmatch.”
Balance should be under a microscope. You still have 1v1 scenarios in conquest, and when one class’s build completely trumps any possible build of another, it feels like paper, scissors, rock. Balance is fairness, and I don’t really see any excuse or medium for less fairness.
“Team Deathmatch isn’t fun to watch. To an observer that doesn’t know a lot about the game, it just looks like a huge ball of particle effects and then someone dies. To be a good e-sport, someone with basic understanding needs to be able to observe progress or quickly make sense of what actions accomplish. When you have a score and a node control list, it’s clear who is winning. Also, Conquest tends to avoid a full 5v5 and often has encounters ranging from 2 to 6 players, which are much easier to follow.”
The same can be said for conquest. Who cares about the non-existent observers at this point? I think being saddled with esport expectations is the main factor that has killed PvP up to this point via this ‘conquest only’ stance, which has facilitated crap balancing few people can stand.
My best guess why Anet would only allow one game mode since beta: conquest is the best idea they can come up with for e-sports. That’s where the biggest pvp money is at, so not only will they not abandon it, but they won’t even allow anything else. At this point, the player base is so small they’re probably even more scared to introduce any other mode in fear of dividing the PvP community away from the prospect of big profits, yet I would argue a lot of money was made off of straight sales from hyping a good PvP game, and a lot more could be made just from having one.
I’m not trying to pick on you dude, but it seems like (next to Anet) you are the most adamant about the community having nothing more than conquest, so…
Exedore says:
“Why do people still want team deathmatch PvP (with no other objectives)? It doesn’t work well in MMORPGs and if you’re looking at making an e-sport, team deathmatch is a bad choice for spectators. I’m sure ArenaNet tried it during development before settling on Conquest.”
Most people PvP to kill each other, not for the excitement of standing in circles or killing NPCs. Things like that get added in for a) highly organized top-teams who want to develop deep strategies around more than just fighting, and b) spectators (esports). We don’t have a spectator mode yet. This game is not an e-sport, and if nothing major changes, it’s not going to be. That’s not to say TDM would be, but it’s also unfair to say any other mode needs to be. Most people agree combat is what makes this game fun (and that conquest blows.)
“ Team Deathmatch often begins with stand-offs or staring contests until someone gets antsy and everyone jumps in. If you rush in or open before-hand, you usually get focused and die. This is bad for casual play and wastes time in organized play. For a spectator, this is also boring to watch.”
I’ve spent plenty of time arranging 2v2s in servers. Those fights are always quickly engaged and settled in a decent amount of time: there has never been a standoff or stalemate, yet (just like conquest) there have been some balance issues. As far as focusing, it’s gonna happen no matter what mode, but it’s a lot worse when the odds are uneven (1v2, 2v3, 3v4, ect…) Focusing is just part of battle, and that is why there is a button for calling target. Honestly though, it’s much better having a fair, even fight compared to being in conquest and getting inundated with interlopers, ruining nearly every balanced skirmish. I’m so tired of being 1v2’d or 2v1ing someone, and it really takes very little skill for 3 people to stunlock and destroy a lone person, yet it happens over and over in conquest. People get sick of being killed with no recourse other than running away.
“Team Deathmatch is not enjoyable for many players when teams grow larger. Players who are learning to play or trying new builds can be easily frustrated by being shredded by a full enemy team. Just look at all the complaints about how big of a zerg-fest 8v8 conquest is. Team Deathmatch would exacerbate that.”
You’re right. Truth is, TTL/TTK is too short for even 5v5 TDM. This game isn’t WoW or TOR: people can be killed in 3 seconds or be virtually unkillable, such is GW2 balance and build extremities. Look at the beginning of spirit watch: the area around the orb is absolute chaos every time. Ranged hangs back and saturates the area with aoes while the engaging melee simply gets destroyed. I’d say anything more than 3v3 is just unintelligible, unmanageable clusterf’s (especially for melee). On the other side, 1v1, 2v2, (and most likely 3v3s) are great ways for newcomers to practice because they are naturally more fair and ability-centric, relying on skill and execution rather than the more dominant factors of field positioning and reinforcements in which conquest demands.
I play all 8 classes and the only one I find easier than mesmer is the thief. Half of the mesmers abilities summon a.i. that hit just as hard as I do, and I can easily maintain 3 at all times. Besides that, I have numerous ‘oh kitten’ buttons (stealth and blink). On top of that, it only takes 5 points in traits to give phantasms retal… wtf. I rarely play my thief or mesmer because they feel too cheap. If there were a visible kill/death ratio these 2 classes would dominate the ranks.
In hot joins? That’s a given but that is because these classes thrive in chaotic environments and you must not play tourneys very often because usually it is one maybe 2 accesses to stealth for a Mesmer. And if you put that 5 points to give your phantasms retal then you are wasting it because you are ignoring something else that can be very very damaging or controlling…. A phantasm spec is strong for sure but it is definitely not the most useful Mesmer build… Especially for tourneys… In tourneys you want a 20/20/0/0/30 Mesmer because they are the best bet for dealing with bunkers considering that when traited we can remove 3 boons per shatter however most geniuses completely ignore this and take the GS thereby wasting a trait that gives a small increase in damage… Mesmer is one of the most engaging classes in this game and requires much more battlefield awareness than others.
Oh come on: I must not play tourneys much cause I don’t use the most powerful build possible? What happened to doing your own thing? Oh yeah, I remember: most of those people quit because it was deemed worthless and noobish. Well, I do play tourneys, and I do it my way. 5 points seems a very small sacrifice to have such a strong counter to aoes, and I really break the mold by not using portal… I’d rather be original, and I win more than my fair share just by thinking differently and being unpredictable. Long story short I still don’t have fun with mesmer because even this build feels like easymode.
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I believe you just stick your pvp weapon up your characters nose and twist a bit
You may need to let it dry out for a while
=P
Engi uses Human Growth Hormone? yeah, they should probly nerf that…
…or the builds with ridiculous amounts of boons and conditions (same for all classes)
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Anet’s got a fever for them e-sport dollars, and the only cure is moar conquest!
Additional options like rest and lots of fluids? (TDM, Arenas)… that’s just stupid
Obviously PvP will just lie there and stare at you until it’s elite healing ability comes of cooldown, and that won’t make any money at all!
IMO all professions should have SOME chance against all other professions.
Fair enough. But not all builds should have a chance against all other builds.
I HIGHLY disagree.
This isn’t rock, paper, scissors I’m playing here.
Well if you run a build that has obvious glaring weaknesses, what do you expect? If you run a build susceptible to conditions for example you have no business crying when a conditionmancer rips you up!
Conditions and condition builds themselves are too eccentric. There is rarely a build that can bring enough cleanses for all the conditions necros/engis/rangers can inundate a player with: that’s paper/rock/rock.
Yeah, you should have to make a good build, but builds shouldn’t also be indomitable and cheesy. Again, too eccentric.
On retal: just throw it out. It’s the same as protection but some of that damage just magically goes back on the attacker. What a lazy idea. How are you supposed to counter that, just stop attacking? Time is too important and keeping a constant eye on all your opponents numerous buffs just isn’t fun. We can’t all bring one of the few boon stripping moves, and ‘boon hate’… I’m sorry but that sounds like a very lame bandaid.
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I play all 8 classes and the only one I find easier than mesmer is the thief. Half of the mesmers abilities summon a.i. that hit just as hard as I do, and I can easily maintain 3 at all times. Besides that, I have numerous ‘oh kitten’ buttons (stealth and blink). On top of that, it only takes 5 points in traits to give phantasms retal… wtf. I rarely play my thief or mesmer because they feel too cheap. If there were a visible kill/death ratio these 2 classes would dominate the ranks.
I agree about the need for an objective but I dont think conquest was the right choice. The main problem with conquest/domination in generial is that deaths lack impact. In many of the popular esports, deaths have/had a major impact. For example in LoL/Dota dying has a huge impact especially in the late game and in high level competition. In CS dying obviously has a huge impact as you can’t come back. The same goes for WoW arena, which while incredibly flawed and never a true esport, was enjoyed by a large population during BC and WotLK. You could even argue that in CoD deaths are more sigificant in pubs as a lot of the thrill comes from getting large kill streaks and therefore not dying. I feel that we either need a new mode or conquest needs to be changed so that deaths are more significant. I know that this is no easy task and that it may be too late but I think it is whats needed to make the spvp population stick.
TLDR: deaths need to be significant
In conquest, everybody kills and dies alot because outnumbering people is way more prevalent and effective than skill, so that makes a great game AND e-sport, right? oh…
So you say there are classes that just disappear and run away AND bunkers that can’t be killed 1v1? Well I guess not everyone has to die alot…
/end sarcasm: you still have a good point
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This conversation reminds me of the call for the removal of red/blue dyes. So many people posted to ask for this, citing numerous reasons to do away with it and why it was totally unnecessary and harmful, yet there was always someone there to claim the sky would fall, no one could tell who was who, and the entire arena would be full of people in hot pink and neon armors the likes of which could make your eyes bleed and destroy PvP as we know it…
As it turns out, it finally got fixed after an immense amount of grief from the community, and today all those naysayers are nowhere to be found. Eventually it was realized that Anet’s preconceived notions about red/blue armor were based on e-sports aspirations and nothing more, yet the community had to suffer needlessly for a long time. I see many of the same characteristics in this debate.
I think it’s a mixed message how we’re being told that TDM is possible without healers, but that it’s still not a great idea… guess we can all keep hangin’ on just in case. However, this does make clear to me a continued unwillingness to support any pvp development that won’t contribute to e-sports. We just can’t take our sights off that cash cow, can we? How about supporting a few other modes to bring in more people instead? I feel many players will be too disillusioned if they save this basic feature for an expansion.
As far as balancing goes, they’ve been playing whack-a-mole with a limp-wrist from the beginning. I’m so tired of hearing rhetoric like: meta just needs to work it out and L2P. Instead of junk factors like boonhate, I think they need to start balancing the OP factors that already exist across all classes: more equal amounts of boons, stripping, condis, cleansing, stunbreaks, healing, mobility, vigor, time spent invulnerable, ect.
Problem is that would destroy the already little and mediocre class differentiation that there is.
Well, many people say ele’s can’t be destroyed and warriors are useless… i think that’s a little too eccentric. Obviously these factors can’t and shouldn’t be made perfectly equal because they need to offset things like a.i., melee vs ranged, a.o.e., stealth, ect…
Well, i got bad news for you, crushing nerf not withstanding, eles are always going to dominate. Consider it, this entire games revolves around limited and over the top CDs on support and limited CDs on your weapon (which are much less powerful save one or 2 which again have long CDs) on that same paradigm you have Eles Who can essentially bypass this limitation on their weapons by switching atunements.
Same goes for Warriors or any melee class for that matter. With so much crap flying around there is no way your long CDs can keep up with your opponent kiting, and if by some miracle you ever do, you find your self doing about the same damage he does from range. Think about the Thief, he is essentially a warrior, but it works because he shots you and then shadowsteps for the kill. And the extra protection heavy armor confers in this game is laughable.
The only way i can see Meele classes as viable specially warriors is a melee role, with out a massive overhaul on the current system is to bunch up Vitality and Damage on the same trait. Make it so that they have double, may be triple the HP pool of other classes, make them hard to bring down and by ramping the damage this way also make them a necessity to address. In short Lump together a bunker and damage build all in one. You will be kited by time consuming to bring down and also a necessity.
OK. Let’s continue to think of progressive ways to work this out. I’m still having a hard time giving up on this games potential.
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As far as balancing goes, they’ve been playing whack-a-mole with a limp-wrist from the beginning. I’m so tired of hearing rhetoric like: meta just needs to work it out and L2P. Instead of junk factors like boonhate, I think they need to start balancing the OP factors that already exist across all classes: more equal amounts of boons, stripping, condis, cleansing, stunbreaks, healing, mobility, vigor, time spent invulnerable, ect.
Problem is that would destroy the already little and mediocre class differentiation that there is.
Well, many people say eles can’t be killed and warriors are useless… i think that’s a little too eccentric. Obviously these factors can’t and shouldn’t be made perfectly equal because they need to offset things like a.i., melee vs ranged, a.o.e., stealth, ect..
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I really don’t understand what the reluctance is about duels, 2v2, and 3v3.
It’s like they’re trying to say: ‘You find 4 other people to play conquest with using teamspeak or don’t play at all’… unless ofc you like fighting against unfair odds and being destroyed over and over. I have zero interest in a solo que for a team format like conquest: it just won’t function competitively like that
As far as balancing goes, they’ve been playing whack-a-mole with a limp-wrist from the beginning. I’m so tired of hearing rhetoric like: meta just needs to work it out and L2P. Instead of junk factors like boonhate, I think they need to start balancing the OP factors that already exist across all classes: more equal amounts of boons, stripping, condis, cleansing, stunbreaks, healing, mobility, vigor, time spent invulnerable, ect.
Conquest is a team game, and 5 people on 3rp party voip is by far superior.
Solo or Premade, it’s 5 people running to 3 nodes, outnumbering and destroying each other in unfairly balanced skirmishes. The entire game is about ganging up on people. Trying to do that solo, (having no communication with your team) is just mindless, happenstance bs.
1 or 2 viable builds per class = cheese vs futility
The leaderboard is mainly a list of elitists who consistently run cheese builds with 4 others in voip. The amount of people who play like this is a very small fraction of the entire player base (most of whom chose to quit rather than feed this moloch)
I say dham yes
Too bad this game has nothing but team objectives best achieved through 3rd party voip
I appreciate the in-depth responses here. I really don’t want to just complain about the game, but rather make clear what has held it back thus far (from being more retentive, from becoming an esport, ect…), and also what can be done about it.
@ Fourth – you’ve raised alot of good points:
On monetization: This is primarily what made me start the thread. Many people feel pvp just ain’t money-makin enough, so it gets no love, and thus want to offer ideas on how to charge us more for the game. I’m worried that Anet will focus on things like new skins, rentable servers, and so on, which I think won’t change much in production assets or the overall population.
On Gamemode: It’s too bad things have been balanced around conquest because that is what has given rise to bunkers, and thus burst. I do, however, think that some additional modes could be more accessible to the mainstream audience (those without 4 friends trying to run only the most elite builds.) I mostly just want a fair fight, and I think alot of people get tired of getting outnumbered and destroyed as a defacto strategy. Downed states merely add to the fact that 1v2 isn’t really feasible against equally competent players, and while I don’t think 1v2 should really be possible, it happens way too often in conquest.
On balance: I’m not just concerned with class vs class balance, but also the balance of healing abilities, mobility, condition stacking, viable builds, and weapon viability. I main a shout warrior, (and he is by no means superior or even competent against the majority of cheese builds out there,) but I won’t change that build because it’s simply fun for me to be able to survive redonk burst and support my team while doing it. Still, I can defeat all but the most experienced, extreme burst warriors, and my chances are even better now that haste has been toned down. Regardless, people talk to me like I’m some kind of idiot for not running with a gs, and that’s a warrior’s weapon balance issue.
On traits: can’t say it any better. I’d also love to see the 5, 15, and 25 point traits with selectable options. I think that could do alot for diversity.
On conditions: Condition builds feel so gimmicky and out of control. I bring a cleanse (and stun break) with every class, but there is never enough to keep it under control, leading me to believe it’s a superior multiplier. (Good point about armor-bypass). It’s just too spammy and uncounterable. Far too often I’m seeing 10-15k bleeding and burning as the greatest damage in the breakdowns.
@Pandabro: I’m under no illusion that Anet gives a flip about what I think. I would, however, speculate that the game needs to take off before it becomes an esport, not become an esport before it takes off.
To me, comparing 2-D RTS games to this one is like apples and oranges. Those games were built around pvp, but this one has many more facets (pve being the greatest.) People play pvp to fight each other, not stand in circles, pick up buffs, kill npcs, run orbs, or fire trebs, yet that’s what it’s all about, and personally it’s takes alot away from the true spirit of competition: standing and fighting fair, with no advantages. I think those things may be good for highly competitive, organized teams that desire a deeper strategy, but they distract those that just seek true battle. As far as WOW is concerned, I heard their deathmatch didn’t do so well at an esport expo, and that’s why GW is afraid to even give it as a sidedish now: too bad. (Guess we’re stuck with 5man voip elitism or nothing.) That’s just hear-say though, and I really don’t know or care about WoW, but I do respect your opinion and appreciate your response.
I would like to put a few positive things at the end of this wall of text:
1: The game is still worth my $60 (I just think they could make alot more off solid pvp)
2: I’m still very pleased they (finally) ditched the red/blue armor
3: I think not having a gear-grind is the only way to go, and commend this
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Honestly, I could care less about e-sports. (No disrespect to those that like it). I just want the game to be fun. To me, better balance means not fighting tons of a.i. against certain classes, having enough cleanses for the massive amounts of conditions you can get inundated with, 1 class being able to keep up with another’s spam, 1 class not getting hopelessly kited around all day vs another, ect…
So honestly, if it’s not fundamental things like balance and being boxed into a mode that relies on having 4 other people on your team making all the right choices to win, why did so many people leave? Was it because they wanted a gear grind? Was it all because there was no spectator mode? Are they coming back now for the leaderboards?
How many people bought the game just for pvp? GW1 was famous for its pvp, not its pve, right? So, with the lack features we have, they’ve already made alot of money off the pvpers for what seems to be a very small investment/cost of goods. (The cost of a few salaries and 1 mode.)
It appears they took all the profit they made from the pvpers buying the game and just spent it on the pve side because they are trying to compete with WoW and other MMOs. The combat engine alone was enough to hook pvpers, and there is much less competition in that realm. Unfortunately, they can’t (or won’t) balance pvp properly OR add in another game mode.
Leaderboards, extra skins, and more incentives/rewards won’t do much to bring more money in (or our community back) when the vast majority of players feel like the (pvp) game is broken or boring. To me this game is a love/hate relationship: I like it so much that I’m extremely frustrated with the way it’s being handled. Tbh, I really like the PvE, but it just makes me wanna PvP that much more, and every time I end up trying again only to get disappointed over and over.
Given that I already feel like the PvP community has been bilked, there is no way I’m paying for anything else in this game, even custom arenas (which really just appear to be conquest with a few negligible sliders.) Ofc there are more things they could add to make the experience better (solo ladder, real tourneys), but the only features that I feel could turn PvP around at this point are things they should have already gotten a better handle on: proper balancing and more modes.
This is all part in parcel of what im hoping will start to happen….anet will see there are plenty of people interested in pvp as in actual numbers. And subsequently will see the potential for revenue there….which will lead to many gem store pvp stuff…at least fingers crossed….
Anet didn’t need to make leaderboards to see how many people were pvping, it was us that had no accurate data.
I understand where you’re coming from dude, but I don’t think this type of change is the best way for them to profit from pvp. They need to actually make it good first, and by that, I mean much better balancing and additional game modes to simply bring more people in.
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It’s just a carrot on a stick where devs dance around the issues and tell us things we already know. It’s only meant to maintain a suckers interest till the next expansion.
Seeing as how they didn’t even mention the quickness nerf throughout all that balance talk in the last SOTG, this piece of PR is a total waste of time.
toggle: forbid classes with pets, aka “warriors only”
What will be ‘arena’ about custom arenas?
Any chance you can change your name to ConquestNet?
Condi-Spam, A.I.
Blink, Invis, Escapable
QQ Warrior
… i basically feel like the game is so full of ‘ez mode, copy-and-paste cheese builds’ that many of the remaining players are people of weak character who enjoy running new players into the ground (with little or no skill involved) and then talking trash. My guess is, most of the players who like a fair fight (or dare to do anything original/not OP) left a long time ago, and now cowardly trolls with no honor generally rule over the spoils
They’re not gonna do it, especially at this point.
PvP is worth more to Anet as a tack-on side-game for the PvE players than it is as a stand-alone mode for the small remaining PvP player base.
People say pvp just doesn’t make any money, so that’s why they’ll never alienate the PvE player base by making separate skill sets, and I totally agree, but isn’t PvP what made GuildWars famous in the first place? Sad
The long and short of it is, they knew PvPers were gonna flock to this game no matter what, so they sank most of their investment money into the PvE side. Unfortunately, they put in way too many wild, unchecked abilities (condition spam, a.i. spam, stealth spam, retaliation, the moa ability, rtl, downed states, ect…) for PvP to ever be balanced fairly, and they’re not gonna remove them just to please the small PvP audience.
They’ve basically got all the money they can get out of us with that initial $60. Whats left is the kabuki theater of SOTG, where carrots are dangled in front of our faces to keep us hanging on till the next expansion.