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Score is still better than glicko-2

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Posted by: MoVitae.2417

MoVitae.2417

There is one in my opinion. This alternative or a variation thereof would have the advantage of being well-founded in statistical theory. Sadly the use of elo/glicko variants for spvp is not.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/What-I-would-change-in-the-ranking-system/first#post6103769

Score is still better than glicko-2

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Posted by: MoVitae.2417

MoVitae.2417

If they all use it, it must be good, right? Saying it out loud feels off somehow. :P

Score is still better than glicko-2

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Posted by: MoVitae.2417

MoVitae.2417

I know that it is counter-intuitive to give more importance to close matches than to matches with large score differentials, but it is the logical thing to do. You have to keep in mind that matchmaking and personal rank are two different things. The goal of matchmaking is to offer players the best opportunity to make a difference in the outcome of a match and that outcome is a win or loss regardless of points. From a matchmaking standpoint, large score differentials are less informative and kind of a failure. The goal of a personal rank — besides bragging rights — is to give a stable foundation for a matchmaking algorithm. If you adjust personal rank substantially for uneven matches, there is no way to know what part of the score difference comes from skill and what part from the circumstances of matchmaking. Two things that should be determined independently are messing each other up and don’t really do their job.

@BlaqueFyre, you’re absolutely right. If team composition was invariable it would be an entirely different situation. In that case, an algorithm like glicko-2 could be argued to apply.

Score is still better than glicko-2

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Posted by: MoVitae.2417

MoVitae.2417

This has already been said but I’d like to emphasize the point. Glicko was developped for rating chess games. That is an entirely different situation from a spvp match, where the outcome is correlated not only your individual skill but also to the skill of 4 other players. Also, in chess, the outcome is not dependent on a score while team score is the meat and bread of an spvp win.

Kudos for getting rid of the old personal score sheet. Anet needs to keep at it and realize that match score is the best possible estimate of skill, as the high score IS the winning criteria. My earlier suggestion for personal rank still stands.

Keep up the great work, I do enjoy the gameplay.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/What-I-would-change-in-the-ranking-system/first#post6103769

How to kick "Git gud" kiddies to kindergarden

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Posted by: MoVitae.2417

MoVitae.2417

First off, I’m a big fan of GW since GW1 and I enjoy spvp very much in version 2.0. Insults don’t faze me. Threats make me laugh. I just enjoy the game for the challenge it presents. Now, that doesn’t mean I think everything is just dandy. There are some irritants, notably the “git gud” kiddies who think that any criticism they don’t like is an indication of poor skillz and easy fodder for their pent-up rage.

I really like the newly introduced option to join the team you played with in the next match. However, most times I find that some of my partners spent much of the gameplay time dissing their teammates or sulking at spawn. The option should be to join the team you liked, whether it was yours or the opposing team. This would be an invaluable information for the devs to know which team played best, regardless of the outcome.

Think about that.

What I would change in the ranking system

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Posted by: MoVitae.2417

MoVitae.2417

Thanks for your input. Let’s work through your objections.

We first have to agree that skill of an individual player can be estimated by the outcome of the games he played in. Otherwise, we would have to reject any automated ranking, which would be impractical.

Given that, we assume that each end score has an unknown probability distribution of which the skill of the player is but a single variable. Therefore our estimate must take into account the outcome of many games if we aim to isolate the effect of the player. In that respect you are right. However, only a relatively small number of games are necessary as the average distribution of each score will quickly approach a Normal distribution (the famous bell curve). In the absence of bias for team formation, the average opponent team’s score would follow a Normal distribution centered around the expected team score over all possible team formations (something Anet can estimate with high accuracy as they have access to all games) while the player’s team score would follow a Normal distribution centered around an expected score highly correlated to the player’s skill. A 100 games may seem a small number but I assure you that it is sufficient from a statistical standpoint IF there is no bias in team attribution AND the population remains constant.

To address your concern, we could wait until a player has participated in a certain number of games in a division, say 25, before he can be eligible to move up. That way, his estimated skill would be impacted by the actual conditions of the division and we could compare it with some confidence against the skill of that population. After 100 games without moving up, the player’s estimated skill could be said to be an accurate reflection of his rank within that division.

About the luck of matchmaking. There isn’t any. The current algorithm is clearly not a random assignment within the population of the division. If that were the case, there would not be such long winning or losing streaks. Therefore, we have to assume that there is always a possibility of bias introduced by matchmaking and we have to neutralize it otherwise the outcome of matches are not independently distributed and the above argument does not work anymore (no bell curve, no way to estimate skill with any degree of confidence). That’s why it is so important to discriminate between wins and losses and give them equal weight in any estimate of the player’s skill.

You say that the average losing score is almost always around 300-350 range. I say that this is to be expected over all games and in no way an argument against using score as an estimate. To the contrary, the average score of losing games involving a particular player would be tightly distributed around a precise value that is highly correlated to that player’s skill. That is the precise property upon which I base my suggestion.

Regarding the Foefire map, you raise a valid point. Killing the opposite lord can cause a large score difference. However, I argue that players take that into consideration when they pick a strategy. You will occasionaly see a team reverse the outcome of a match by giving up defending the caputure points and go for the opposite team’s lord. In any case, any difference in score distribution by game types will average out and approach a Normal distribution after a number of independent games. Therefore I cannot accept your conclusion. There could be a bias if players focused on specific games types, but then you could just take that into account, just as we did in the win/lose imbalance bias. But I don’t believe it’s an actual problem.

What I would change in the ranking system

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Posted by: MoVitae.2417

MoVitae.2417

I would rank a player between .333 and .667 as follows :

Keep track of the last 100 ranked games of the player and separate them in 2 sets according to whether the player’s team won or lost.

Calculate the average score of the player’s team when it wins. Say it is A.
Calculate the average score of the player’s team when is loses. Say it is B.
Calculate the average score of the opposite team when it wins. Say it is C.
Calculate the average score of the opposite team when it loses. Say it is D.

The current rank of the player is (A+B)/(A+B+C+D).

A season has 56 days. There are 6 divisions. On day 1, put everybody in Amber. At the end of day 1 and everyday after that move the top 100p% of players from Amber division to Emerald where p = 1-exp((-ln 6)/56), so approximately 3.15%. In the hypothetical condition that the pvp population was constant, this would ensure that exactly 1/6th of the population would be in Amber at the end of the season.

At the end of each day, move the top rated players of each division to the next one in a similar fashion so that the population is evenly distributed among all 6 divisions at the end of the season.

Constructive comments welcome.

Year of Ascension (Problem)

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Posted by: MoVitae.2417

MoVitae.2417

I’m sure that Anet will make the backpiece obtainable some other way in the future. Here’s why. The problem is the sub par matchmaking algorithms used up to now, which do not capture the effective level of players. As matters stand, players of all skill levels are scattered across all divisions (excluding Amber) and are pinned there unless they resort to meta-tactics to circumvent the adverse effect of matchmaking. This must be addressed at some point but in any case there will be another chance to get the backpiece.

% of competitive matches do you get to play?

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Posted by: MoVitae.2417

MoVitae.2417

I kept track of 100 consecutive games of solo queue conquest in Emerald division (while I was stuck at 0.2 win ratio) and 42% had a score ratio of less than 3 to 1 for the winning team (which I consider a good indicator of potential challenge). Many of those were still unchallenging (felt subjectively unwinnable for one of the teams) so I would say less than 33% for that particular hundred games. However, since I started grouping up before queuing, the number of close games has drastically improved and so has the % of challenging games.

A measure of MMR bias

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Posted by: MoVitae.2417

MoVitae.2417

It’s not easy to isolate the impact of the matchmaking algorithm on the outcome of games but I designed a simple experiment to provide a measure for the bias introduced in favor or against an individual player.

I played my best in 100 ranked games (just conquest) and entered the results in a spreadsheet. The plain average win ratio was 0.21 (21 wins out of a hundred). As there are lots of matches with largely unbalanced teams, it seemed appropriate to give more weight to matches with close outcomes. To do this, I simply divided the score of the losing team by the score of the winning team and squared the result. For example a close win of 500 to 450 would give a weight of 0.81 while a crushing defeat of 500 to 50 would give a weight of 0.01, a logical choice as individual prowess is more likely to make a difference in close games. With these weights factored in, the average ratio became 0.251.

With an unbiased algorithm, I would expect no big difference between the weighted and unweighted ratios in the long run, but over a hundred games, 1 in 5 actual wins compared to 1 in 4 potential wins seems like a very big bias.

Black Lion Trade Bug

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Posted by: MoVitae.2417

MoVitae.2417

Same here. I bought various crafting materials, vanilla beans, eggs, cauliflower and a few more, went to TP and didn’t find the items.