Guild Wars 2

There seems to be a lot of people looking for survivable tank specs for the next elite. Personally I see that as a shortcoming of reaper needing tweaking. I think the original intent was a slow inevitable death by a dude using a greatsword. When HOT came out I thought reaper would be a slow unstoppable (un CCable) melee class that chilled. So when you eventually caught up they could never get away. I also imagined a medium ranged chain hook skill that pulled the enemy toward you would be great for flavour and theme! But what we got was a squishy melee sponge that gets CC locked in PvP every time. My question is how is your vision of the new e spec different than the original intent of reaper? Would it be better to just ask for a reaper rework or change a few traits?

@Amityel when the necro leaks said scourge is a support spec with a health shield mechanic of some sort I was hoping for a disc priest with a gw2 spin on it. It would have a bone shield for allies that required a blood tax of some sort. So you have to damage enemies to build or maintain the shield heals in a certain time andbif not it comes out of your health bar. Maybe also have tons of synergy with blood magic vampirism traits. I don’t see it happening now with the scourge filling the niche but we will have to wait and see how effective scourge is.

I’m hoping they will one day fix core necro and shroud to be a legit long ranged shadow nuker. Not quite sure what I want as the next e spec. Maybe a very mobile high dps melee shadow wraith that jumps out of portals short distances away?

My hope is that the torch is support focused, medium range AoE weapon creates damage shields which let the scourge heal shielded people by doing it’s own damage. Torch 4 will give an ally a sand armor or aura which provides boons fitting the theme (not sure what boons yet). Torch 5 will blast the area in AoE fire and change the sand armor into a diamond damage shield. (kitteneesy but working on it)

I hope the actual sand shroud brings a different feel of damage focus than core and reaper shroud. Maybe it could have a witch doctor, melee skirmish fighter style feel where you quickly engage, dehabilitate in some way (torment) disengage then repeat. Or it could be how I imagine Palawa Joko fights based on his image in the wiki. Melee fighter, not skirmish like, less tanky than reaper but torments and cripples. My vote is like Palawa Joko if it’s not too OP.

Edit: Why did it automatically change the word che eesy into kittensy? I never knew the meaning of that word till now.

I thought all we knew was that it was a scourge with a torch. We might be able to imply burning because it’s a torch but do we know it will produce torment and be support?

I’m not sure how much us making suggestions for the new E-spec matters because most of it is likely pretty decided for now. I just hope they will go back to core necro shroud and revamp it. They may not though because it isn’t elite and is meant to be weaker than reaper and scourge.

I’m going to agree with Shaogin. I do not want to Necro to be constrained to the “3 pillars.” First, I don’t see them as pillars. They are just characteristics that describe a theme just like reaper is a new theme. The idea of an E spec is to significantly change the play style of the class so I hope in the future we get a more support oriented skillset along with a shroud that fits the theme.

That being said, I think core Necro has trait lines with great themes but they need to be fleshed out more to be viable. We have line for power, conditions, support, minions or tank and improving shroud. It would be boring and redundant and boring to add another pet trait line.

I also see the word necromancer as a catch all for a dark caster class. I don’t think Anet should limit itself to the Wikipedia definition of necromancer. It should also draw from warlock themes since it doesn’t have to differentiate between two dark caster classes.

I must say I love DOT classes and would love necro to be DOT based tactician or general like others have said. The problem is that DOTs (Bleeds in GW2) are clunky and easily removed. They don’t fit in the game well.

For comparison, WoW’s environment makes DOTs easier to implement. The DOT class (warlock) has a basic rotation of 3 insta cast DOTs, a 1.5 second cast DOT that prevents dispels and a few situational spells to prevent AFK after all DOTs are applied. The ramp up time to get your full rotation is less than 5 seconds then you do the same to your next target. There is no epidemic to spread DOTs. This play style makes warlock a more mobile caster because other casters have longer cast times and are rooted for the duration.

If you compare to GW2, bleeds take way more time to stack up and are way easier to cleanse. GW2 is a more mobile game compared to WoW and necro problems are compounded by the fact they have the worst mobility in the game. There is no method to play the attrition game in GW2 as necro because they aren’t tanky for survival nor mobile for kiting.

DOTs are the reason I love the dark caster theme in MMOs. Anet please fix this for Necromancers!!!!

I hope that things are not set and there is time to change the game. At the rate expansions are coming there may not be a third one if the second one doesn’t do well.

I know it’s not fair to compare a game with a sub fee to one without. However, achieving class balance similar to WoW would be a huge step to improving GW2. Even though WoW forces you to chose DPS, heals or tanks and Anet only wants a soft trinity to make groups more accessible etc, I find grouping easier in WoW. This is because players can pick a role and all classes able to fill the role are essentially equal. There is no classes that are absolutely needed for quickness or GOTL. Sure WoW druid is the a slightly better healer than the rest but no one will complain if you bring a different healer. In GW2 classes aren’t equal and many people will complain if you bring Necromancer for damage. Class balance is super important if GW2 is to do well.

Whenever the expansion comes out I really hope they take a second look at core shroud and not just focus on the new elite. It’s a shame that it doesn’t have much use or function currently. It would be great if Necromancer could at least fill two roles well.

I casually play both WoW and GW2. Overall, I find WoW’s class mechanics generally more interesting to play but my heart will always root for GW2 since there is no gear treadmill and I can have some fun with fashion wars :P!

So this is for the few of you that may have played Priest in WoW Legion. (I hope some of you have.) The goal is for Necro to be more like Priest but do it in a GW2 way. So imagine if:

1) LF was switched to the Insanity mechanic. Insanity is just faster paced and more fun.
2) Core shroud was damage focused and the skills were like Priest in shadowform.
Imagine shooting multiple lifeblasts at once for pseudo AOE / cleave capabilities!
3) The new E-Spec to be like Discipline Priest with damage shields and healing players
through doing your own damage (other games like RIFT have that healing
mechanic too). Imagine a putting a some sort of blood shield on a downed
player. Put the shield on and continue your normal DPS to heal them. No need to
walk over and rez them!

Again, it’s just a fun idea and not super likely to happen. Thoughts?

Gonna agree with Zeft. Multiple classes should be able to take on roles equally well so that there is no monopoly on support (druid) and tank (chrono) to improve balance. . Same thing with boons. Chrono and warrior should have some competition in applying their respective boons.

Class diversity in raids is part of what makes it fun. I would love to see the day when every class did roughly equal dps if they spec’d one way or was just as effective as another class at support or tanking if they spec’d another. It would be great if classes filled roles equally but had a different way to achieve it.

Gonna bring it back to the opening topic. The problem for necros in raids is they are a poor choice for every role. The reason people ask for DPS vs support is purely player preference. Both need help and fixes in either one would help make necro raid viable.

Personally, I hope they revamp core shroud to fill a DPS role, tweak reaper to be a viable alternative to chronotank and have the new sand shroud elite cater to support.

Oh dear. While I understand that forum software will not be fixed and it’s a lost cause, I think it’s silly to argue against getting an information gathering tool. Obviously polls have their limitations as people have already described but at the same time we (and Anet) are all smart individuals and are aware of those limitations when applying them to decision making.

There are lots of benefits to being able to poll and few harmful effects. Don’t like or believe in polls? Then don’t participate. Think a poll is completely stupid or biased? Then write a comment in the post saying so. We are not in danger of Anet misinterpreting or over extrapolating poll results either.

Going against Anet giving us an extra tool to use is like shooting ourselves in the foot but it seems like I’m clearly in the minority in this case.

Oh boo. Well that was short lived.

Outside poll sites are inconvenient and it’s doubtful Anet would look outside their own forums. And yes player created polls may be flawed but it’s up to us to use the tool wisely and Anet to decide if it’s a biased poll or not when they read it.

But again, boo… and sigh. Worth a shot.

I feel that a lot of the community is invested in GW2 and wants to see it grow. At times, it’s disheartening to see game balance not changing or even going in the “wrong” direction and it feels like Anet isn’t in touch with the game or community.

I think we also have to look at it from Anet’s perspective when they read posts on the forums. There are many good ideas made and discussed but members will never unanimously agree on any topic. Eventually all that happens is there is good discussion and it falls off the first page. No progress has been made and the idea is lost.

If we had the ability to poll, Anet could at least gauge how strongly the community feels about topics and how much support there is for ideas. Forums would be able to organize and prioritize their ideas so it’s easier for Anet to make “community informed” decisions or at least be aware of them.

Worst case scenario is people have a new tool to be engaged in forum discussions and are aware of what the overall community’s stance was on where the biggest problems were when balance changes occur.

Hmm, interesting suggestions on how to change shroud. Sounds like a good idea in that it would add some damage and support with minimal changes to shroud. I’d be up for that. My preference would be to change core shroud into a full out damage focused skillset, beef up reaper a tiny bit more to survive a bit better for a tank role then have the new e-spec be full support. However, that would take much more tweaking and is therefore less likely to happen.

^^ The way I am reading the more recent part of this thread is that you and Zeft are saying the same thing. He is saying core necro shroud “obstructs” gameplay. He means those shroud skills are not useful to any build of necromancer. You are saying that if shroud doesn’t offer anything useful that you can ignore it altogether. The fact is core shroud is so bad everyone chooses to ignore it and take reaper instead. Everyone is ignoring the profession mechanic (which should be the fundamental basis of necro). It should be something everyone wants to use. The moral is core shroud needs fixing.

Your second point “the tanky theme doesn’t hold the class back, it defines it” is exactly the problem. It is defined as a tanky class but myself and other people want it to be able to do some decent damage. Simply put, Anet sees the necro as a tanky class because it has been given a second life bar and is therefore unlikely to give it damage too.

The suggestion to trade the life bar for damage is an attempt to shift the perception of necro as a tanky class to one that can do a variety of things. And based on this conversation I understand that there are good reasons that necro deserves damage buffs on top of maintaining a second life bar I will stop asking to trade for damage. However, that doesn’t change the fact that necro is seen as a tanky class. Most likely that perception of the class has to be changed before necro gets any DPS buffs.

While I am interested to know what the new sand shroud will be like, I also hope they rework death shroud so that we eventually have three viable shroud options.

Carighan.6758:

So yeah, good things and bad things. I feel GW2 should learn more from other MMOs. Much as the unique elements like zone downleveling or freely shared combat participation are awesome, class design and skill/talent balance and design works better in other MMOs, and there’s no shame in copying systems proven to work.

Yeah I have been bouncing between WoW and GW2 for years. WoW has better storytelling, class balance and more interesting class mechanics (so much can be done when you charge a subscription fee). But… GW2 has no monthly subscription or gear treadmill (which is HUGE for me).

I’ve secretly been wishing that GW2 make necromancer like WoW’s priest. Swap life force for the insanity mechanic. Make regular shroud be like Shadowform. Change the blood line traits to make it work like the new Discipline priest. That amount of copying systems that work is ok…. right…..?? I wish :P

ZeftheWicked.3076:

- fix core necro’d deathshoud. It’s completely useless, helps with just about nothing, and adds insult to injury seeing how amazingly well reaper shroud fits into different kinds of builds and situations.

Agree! Any thoughts on making it better other than straight DPS buffs?

^^ I will take your word for it because I don’t PVP enough to know the ins and outs. I hope the overall community including other classes agree with you because it would be nice to keep the second HP bar and have more DPS. I hesitate because my gut tells me Anet sees necromancer as a tanky class and balances it accordingly so we may not get the DPS buffs we ask for.

Hmm, I don’t think you get it but I don’t know how else to explain it other than what has already been said and what’s in the opening post so I’m just going to leave it. I also don’t think it’s as hard to change as you say.

I’m going to over simplify the purpose of this thread and say I want the necromancer to have high DPS (similar to elementalist.) Is it fair to give necromancer equal DPS in PVP given how tanky they are because of the second HP bar? Can you justify it? If you can, my suggestion to trade is moot. If not, what are you willing to compromise? I feel that the tanky theme holds us back.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t get the proposal … do you think Anet is more likely to make a specific role for Necros is they removed the Shroud ability? I think it’s actually the opposite … if you want specific roles, it will be entirely THROUGH the Shroud it will happen. It’s no different than Scrapper or Druid … the elite defines the specific roles through the class tools or new tools.

The proposal is not to remove shroud, its associated skills and the LF mechanic but to trade the second life bar aspect of it for more DPS (among other things). This is based on the idea that it might be overpowered for necro to be a good HP sponge and have high damage at the same time. Some argue that it is ok to straight up boost DPS without removing the life bar aspect. And yes, roles will likely change through the shroud as you say. What are your thoughts? I’m open to hearing reasons both ways.

I hope you are right and we just need straight buffs so we can keep the HP bar, have high damage and access to utilities at the same time. (That would be great!) It sounds too good to be true and I wonder what other people’s opinions are on that.

I want necro to have high damage in both PVE and PVP. If we keep the HP bar they are high damage and survivabilty. You make a point that in PVE survivability is less relevant but I’m not sure everyone would buy into that reasoning. In PVP I think everyone would complain that necro is overpowered if necros kept the HP bar but had the same damage as elementalist or thief. Just curious to see how you would respond to or rationalize that. (PVP isn’t quite my thing so I can’t say)

So if the goal was to balance PVE and PVP in a similar way, do you have ideas on how to give more damage (and how much) to necro in PVP without being OP? Or if you balance PVE and PVP differently, would it be sufficient to just give necro extra mobility and maybe a bit more tankiness (but not increase damage) in PVP like others in the forums have suggested? Sorry lots of questions. Just curious.

NeXeD.3042:

wasnt one of the best selling point of GW2 was that they didnt do roles….. they didnt want to do what some other MMOs are doing hence no holy trinity…. It sounds as though you might want to try a game with a holy trinity….

Well yes and no… I’m mostly talking PVE but it still applies to PVP to a lesser degree when I mean roles. For raids there will always be someone who takes more of the damage and someone who is more focused on keeping people alive because it’s too hard for the whole party to damage, tank and support at the same time. Self heals on every character help a lot but sometimes it’s not enough.

The community will always have at least a “soft trinity” in the back of their minds. Right now necro isn’t good enough at any role in the soft trinity to warrant a spot. I’m just hoping for changes so that the overall community will see necro as an equal option for at least one (hopefully all three roles) in a raid (PVE) or group (PVP) setting.

Crinn.7864:

There is nothing intrinsic to shroud that prevent necromancers from filling those roles.

While it is entirely possible that ArenaNet places way too much value on EHP (look at how overcompensated thieves and eles are) we should not be encouraging that.

If you think necromancers should be filling those roles then you should make a thread asking for that, not make a thread that attacks a class mechanic that is completely unrelated to our ability to fill said roles.

You’re right that shroud doesn’t prevent necros from filling roles but overall there is nothing to make people want to use necros in the role either. For example why take a necro for DPS when every other class is equal or better? Or why have a necro tank when a chrono with minstrel’s gear could tank and provide enough boons that the group barely needs another support. My idea with shroud is to change it a bit so that it specifically addresses those gaps.

Sorry, I’m not sure what EHP is or the issues around it so not sure how to comment on it.

My problem is that I do think shroud (second life bar aspect) is related to the ability to fill roles. If we just boosted necro damage to be equal with the elementalist and not change shroud at all then other people would cry bloody murder because it would be overpowered to have the survivability and damage at the same time. So in that way, the tankiness (life bar) prevents sufficient buffs to damage to allow it to fill a DPS role.

(Edit) Maybe I should change the topic name to “Trade second life bar for ability to fill roles?”

Justine.6351:

Its not a second life bar, its a rechargeable damage shield that comes with its own utility skills while your normal skills are allowed to recharge.

Whether you call it a life bar or damage shield, you’re right in that shroud skills (especially regular shroud) aren’t super useful or thematic and they just bide the time till you can use other skills. It’s a core mechanic of the class and most builds don’t use it other than to wait recharges like you said. That’s why I’m hoping that each shroud could be tweaked to fill a role. It would give necromancers a reason to want to be in shroud depending on if they want to damage, tank or support.

Dadnir.5038:

room for necromancers without 2 life bar but at this point of the game it should only come throught elite spec

Yes. Agreed.

Dadnir.5038:

core mechanic of the necromancer isn’t the 2 life bar, which is basically a feature, but the skill set that his gained.

OMG Yes!

Dadnir.5038:

Druid’s celestial Avatar is a copy of the necromancer’s shroud.

Preaching to the choir. Right out of my mouth.

I’m not great at the ins and outs of how to change specific skills and traits but I think each shroud should have a purpose or role.

Regular shroud fill the DPS role as a higher damage caster. I’d love to see it changed into a full out AOE Lich but I’d settle for just a numbers boost in our current shroud. Reaper shroud could fill the unstoppable monster or tank role but would need a bunch of changes. Maybe a combination of active blocks, evades or passive protection and stability to tank in PVE and survive CC in PVP. And maybe the shroud in the future elite spec could some kind of full support.

Crinn.7864:

So basically you want to remove the core mechanic that drives the playstyle of the class and instead replace it with a copy of Druid’s Celestial Avatar?

Yes. I want the necro to fill specific roles and I feel that the second life bar holds us back. we have poor DPS and support which makes necro unwanted for raids. We are a health sponge but it isn’t enough to make necro seen as a viable tank in raids and it isn’t enough to survive a string of CC in PVP. It feels like the necro is middle ground (at best) for everything and can’t fill any role (DPS, support or tank).

So overall I am suggesting to give up the second life bar in exchange for being able to fill a specific role and to enable utility skills in shroud because there is no conflict anymore. You give a little a get a little.

And yes LF can be balanced for PVE and PVP but that doesn’t address the inability to fill specific roles in PVE and PVP or the conflict with enabling utility skills in shroud.

Likely an unpopular opinion but I think the fact that shroud acts as a second life bar makes balancing difficult and prevents improvements to necro from happening so the second life bar idea needs to go.

Some problems are that the amount of health given in shroud is hard to balance. In PVE it’s great for survivability but in PVP the same amount isn’t enough to survive being CC locked. The necro is balanced around the fact that it is innately tanky because of the second life bar and the trade off is that it has lower (pretty sad) damage. Also, buffs like being able to use utility skills 6-0 while in shroud could be overpowered because you can heal your regular health while in shroud.

My suggestions for a shroud changes based on it not being a second life bar are:
1) Life force is built by activating any and every skill. (proportional to the cooldown.)
2) The life force gained does not act as a second life bar in shroud form. (It’s just a
resource to try to skillfully manage.)
3) The purpose of shroud is to have a window of time to be very good at a certain role
(possibly based on spec / elite spec). For example regular shroud has significantly
higher DPS than weapon skills or reaper shroud makes you into a legit tank etc.
4) While in shroud, life force drains quickly and the longer you are in shroud the more
damage you do.
5) You have access to all utility skills while in shroud.

What do people think about removing the second life bar aspect of shroud?

SlippyCheeze.5483:

How are you judging this gap? Is it based purely on the “DPS test golem” numbers these classes can manage?

Yeah you could say I’m basing the gap on what people post from DPS test golems. You are right that in more realistic scenarios the DPS gap isn’t as large based on player skill and environmental mechanics. I just wish that test golem benchmarks done by pro players would be as close as possible for all classes. I see the test golem as a theoretical DPS ceiling. So if test golem numbers the same across classes, no one could say that necros do less DPS than elementalists because any DPS differences would be based on player skill at that point. Then hopefully the community would know all classes were balanced DPS wise.

LouWolfskin.3492:

I’d be happy if the old class lines would get turned into elite specs so that the almost duo class System we now have wouldn’t be possible anymore.

I completely second this. I’d be happy if they re-looked into pre HOT class mechanics to make them more interesting and effective. Right now it’s a no brainer that for most classes the elite spec is better. It’d be nice if the normal spec could be just as engaging and thematic. That along with making DPS between all classes roughly equal would be great.

DPS throughout classes should be made much more equal than it is now. It will never be equal but DPS gaps like the one between necros and elementalists should be much less noticeable. Ideally class roles and effectiveness in those roles should be linked to gear. So anyone wearing Berserker’s gear should do around the same DPS and those that go Minstrel’s should all be equally effective as a support.

Also, each boon should be able to be provided by at least a couple classes for diversity. That way you don’t have to bring a mesmer for quickness. It could mean you have a choice of 2-3 classes to bring quickness and maybe it’s easiest to maintain full quickness on mesmer but other classes could do it as well with higher player skill. On the flip side a memer has a choice to be equally competitive in a DPS spot instead of always being forced into a quickness spam role.

I get that the suggestions run the risk of all classes being the same but hopefully between smart balancing choices and special class mechanics that fit a class theme how you fill that role will be and feel different making it more fun and diverse.

Crinn.7864:

Plastazote.7914:

No, life force generation is currently based on enemy deaths as far as I was aware.

All weapons (excluding offhand dagger) have LF generating skills. A slew of Utility skills do as well.

See link for list:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_force

LF from enemy deaths is literally the smallest and least relevant source of LF. For theory crafting purpose you basically ignore it completely.

Hmm, I guess you are right about other sources of LF generation. I was thinking more that every skill used generates LF (proportional to the cooldown) with the intention that you build LF to gain a window of high DPS instead of a second health bar. It’s all just personal preference but Anet’s second life bar design makes me a bit sad.

My main problem with LF scaling off incoming damage is that it might not be there to use when you need it because a player can’t control when they take damage all of the time. I prefer it to be tied to active cooldown / skill usage.

No, life force generation is currently based on enemy deaths as far as I was aware. Changing Life Force generation to be based on skill activation will not eliminate the crutch but trading the extra life bar for extra damage instead might. Either way it’s just personal preference there’s no right and wrong.

Crinn.7864:

Plastazote.7914:

I think that life force should be built each time a player uses a skill. It is controlled by the player ( not based off deaths or incoming damage).

But why? Basing it off incoming damage directly fixes the problem you just mentioned:

Like others have said 6K health means nothing when players have 30k DPS. But 6K health is huge when it comes to PVE.

Also, it shouldn’t be a extra health bar anymore because it’s too complicated to balance. It should be a window of time where the Necromancer does increased DPS.

But HP isn’t hard to balance at all. HP is literally the simplest of all mechanics. The only reason shroud has balance issues is because it doesn’t scale with incoming damage.

I agree it could solve HP balancing issues but I guess I’d personally prefer if Lf generation is internally controlled by the player and not controlled by the situation like incoming damage. That way you build it when you need it instead of relying on incoming damage. More satisfying gameplay if it’s under player control. Also I think necros don’t do enough damage compared to most classes and think using Lf as a health bar is a crutch to not give necro more DPS as a secondary reason for my suggestion to build LF each time a skill is used instead.

Problem: Lack of DPS and Life Force mechanic is hard to balance. In PVE it makes base necro more tanky than necessary but in PVP the extra life bar isn’t enough to survive.
Suggestion: Life force no longer acts as a second health bar. Instead, life force is generated by using all skills (including shroud skills) and shroud is a DPS form (significantly higher than when out of shroud). Reaper’s survive-ability would have to come from protection, stability or stun breaks etc instead of health.

Problem: Little support offered in groups
Suggestion: If you want Necro to be versatile and able to be a “full” support then base Necro shroud spells could be reworked into a support form like Celestial Avatar. The spells would all have dual (damage and support) roles. So if you used damage gear it would feel like a normal DPSer. If you used healing gear it would be a “full” healer. That way all Necros would be able to support if they wanted without being elite.
-if you want a less versatile more DPS oriented support, the Necro could passively heal the team based on % of Necro DPS. Or it could be something more thematic like after X damage has been done by the Necro a maggot comes out of the NPC, slowly crawls towards the ally with the lowest health for a few seconds, dies and leaves a random boon in a small aoe for the group.

I think that the problems with necromancer are that they don’t do enough damage and life force is hard to balance overall. Like others have said 6K health means nothing when players have 30k DPS. But 6K health is huge when it comes to PVE.

I think that life force should be built each time a player uses a skill. It is controlled by the player ( not based off deaths or incoming damage). Also, it shouldn’t be a extra health bar anymore because it’s too complicated to balance. It should be a window of time where the Necromancer does increased DPS.

Crinn.7864:

I’m pretty sure “Reaper” is the death knight of gw2.

I agree. It’s just sad how it falls so short. :’(

Yannir.4132:

Plastazote.7914:

Yannir.4132:

I always cringe when I see an ESpec suggestion that looks taken straight out of WoW. Plagiarizing other known franchises is just lack of creativity.

I disagree. Lots of MMO’s borrow ideas from each other and make small changes to them. GW2 had the Lifeforce mechanic first. WoW gave shadowpriests insanity later in Legion. Insanity is essentially the same as Lifeforce but gives damage instead of a health bar and builds from using skills instead of enemy deaths and is faster paced because of it.

That’s different, and you know it. Something mechanical like that isn’t plagiarizing since GW2 was hardly the first one to use it.

But making a class and calling it a DEATH KNIGHT isn’t about mechanics, it’s about creative and intellectual property. It would infringe on copyright issues even if it was nothing like the DK’s in WoW. It could be dancing around in a Hawaiian skirt shooting bunnies out of a ballista but if it’s called a Death Knight, it violates on that copyright. Mechanics don’t violate copyright since they are shared property.

I think you would be right if someone blatantly tried to copy every aspect of WoW’s Death Knight and use it for themselves (Runes, runic power, lore etc). Even if someone tried it would probably feel very different since the games work differently. GW2 has utilities and weapon sets which are solely cooldown based which makes rotations feel more random. WoW’s skills feel more based on the mechanics of the class. (I hope GW2 learns from WoW in that sense).

I think it’s fine to use the idea of a “dark knight” and maybe a mechanic or two. At the end of the day hopefully developers share and learn from each other’s ideas and we have even better fleshed out games to get attached to.

I get what the op is saying. I think they are fancy because Anet focused the whole class mechanic around illusions. They have be more like tricksters using illusions to fit the theme. No more of that mental domination feel like before.

I agree that shroud isn’t terrible, just boring. Lifeforce should be like Insanity in WoW.

1) Builds from using skills instead of things dying.
2) Increases damage the longer you are in shroud instead of a second life bar. Lifeforce seems like a crutch to not give necro DPS anyways.
3) Depletes significantly faster so it’s a race to use skills to keep it up as long as possible.
4) Can use utility skills in shroud.

Overall, it’s the best of both worlds. A faster more fun class mechanic and a fleshed out transformation instead of a couple spell changes in shadowform. Hopefully it wouldn’t be too difficult to implement.

Yannir.4132:

I always cringe when I see an ESpec suggestion that looks taken straight out of WoW. Plagiarizing other known franchises is just lack of creativity.

I disagree. Lots of MMO’s borrow ideas from each other and make small changes to them. GW2 had the Lifeforce mechanic first. WoW gave shadowpriests insanity later in Legion. Insanity is essentially the same as Lifeforce but gives damage instead of a health bar and builds from using skills instead of enemy deaths and is faster paced because of it.

Shroud is a cool and unique but could be implemented in a more fun way. It should be a core mechanic everyone wants to use. It’s a shame now that many builds don’t use death shroud at all.

I’d change shroud to be more interactive and fast paced. It would build each time you use skills (to varying degrees depending on the skill). Once it reaches a certain amount you can go into shroud form. Instead of it being just a life bar, it would increase damage the longer you stay in shroud instead. The catch is that it drains more quickly and you have to race to use skills to temporarily keep it going. It will inevitably end no matter how skilled you are.

This is essentially the shadowpriest insanity mechanic in WoW right now but Anet could their flavor into it because it is a completely different form with different spells. They could also change trait lines to make the shroud have a different flavor. For example, speccing in the curse tree would give shroud a more condition plague spreading feel while blood would give shroud more healer capacities.

Yeah I don’t like the idea of 2 life bars. Feels a little boring. That’s why an insanity -esque bar that provides more damage the longer you are in it (along with other things) would be more fun in my opinion.

Yes, I’m aware any of this is probably a pipe dream. I suppose one can always illogically hope. But yeah, a more fun life force mechanic and more shroud integration like Anchoku suggested would be amazing.

For a bit of background, I casually play both GW2 (necro) and WoW(shadowpriest) and have a love / hate relationship with both games.

So I noticed WoW first came out with Shadowform which just passively increased damage and decreased damage taken. Then GW2 came and gave the necro a life force bar and a shroud form with different skills. Now WoW has a cool insanity bar which is similar to the life force bar but a bit faster pace.

The insanity bar builds with each spell used and once it reaches a certain amount, shadowpriests can go into shadowform where they do more damage. While in shadowform insanity drains quickly but is slowed down by using spells still. It’s inevitable that shadowform will end (usually 30-40s) regardless of skill but it’s a fun race to delay it as long as possible.

So my idea was to do similar with life force and shroud form to make it more fun and since it’s a central mechanic for necros anyways. It makes for interesting gameplay cuz it can be strategic to wait for a good time to pop shroud form and let loose a buttload of burst DPS.

Not sure if it could be easily implemented but what do you guys think? Share if you like the idea