Guild Wars 2

Devata.6589:

That is false.. Sure, if I have an item rewarded from specific content , it might give some “show off” value.

But it’s also very much something to be pride of yourself. From most items you can only have one visible at the time anyway, so how would the “show off” hold stand for all the items on the bank?

As an ex raider, only the latest and greatest matter. Looks are usually unimportant. So what would happen is, you’d equip what you’d consider your “biggest” “achievement” items untill such time you got bored of them. Or the people around you got bored of them (for example when something has become more widespread and you see it all around you now).

As time passes by, and if the flow of raid content is steady, you would use the combination of items that are generally accepted by the community as the ones that have been harder to get, even if said items now come for defunct raids.

The value of the showing off is to separate your self from the lessers, the less skilled or worthy players by displaying your hard to get and unique treasures. It’s like a peakitten, displaying its feathers. You’d only choose the most rare and exclusive feathers you can get your hands on.

Torolan.5816:

I like hard content too, but not if it sends you home completely emptyhanded like ls2 does. Not a big fan of the Aetherpath either, so much work and commitment for so little reward. If it has to be hard, at least don´t fill it with Garbage only at the end, and some mid level champs don´t hurt either.^^

No you don’t like challenging content. You like loot and rewards. You see challenging content as a means to those. You don’t like the content, just the rewards.

phys.7689:

• 8) this is the nail on the head here. Some peoples primary enjoyment comes from getting specific items they want. They may not enjoy that many other facets of the game. So for them, they want to be able to get anything by the means they do enjoy.
  I understand this beef, but i have yet to see them balance the get anything you want via whatever play you enjoy, in a manner that doesnt make most rewards unfullfilling and increase grind greatly. Id rather have to choose or not choose to do something i dont like, than have everything require an intense grind, and every reward be watered down based on how much people earn unintentionally, or when playing super optimally.

You are making the hypothesis here that the options are, short, hard and rewarding, and long, easy and eventually rewarding if you can take the grind.

but the fact is, that the way this game is set up, there is nothing than grind for stuff. So I believe you’re wrong in assuming that there will be a grind free, or even, smaller grind road. At least in the beginning.

Something to keep in mind. Maybe the question is what kind of grind you prefer, in the end.

Ohoni.6057:

Good for you. It’s important to shut down discussions that one disagrees with, rather than participating in them or ignoring them as a mature adult might. “I’m taking your ball and going home” is a perfectly reasonable response to conflict.

He’s probably reported a couple of people too, cause words also annoy him.

And if he hasn’t already, i’m sure he will after this post :P

TheRandomGuy.7246:

You should reread this thread then. Because that’s exactly what people are crying about here.

Or maybe you should … this time without projecting though…

SkiTz.4590:

Who the hell wants to “rub it in”?? is that your excuse? really?
There might be some idiotic 12 year olds running their mouth in LA. how they beat everything so easily and everyone else sucks. but newsflash, there are ppl that act like annoying kids in every game.

You think the majority of the “capable” ppl are doing it so they can finally stand on top of you or something??? Really?

Judging from your behaviour in here, and the comments about the salty tears, you, my friend, would be one of them. You sound exactly like the person who would rub in it.

If I thought I was talking to a person who likes to self reflect, i’d urge you to consider what i’ve said, but I don’t think you are. So, instead, i’ll just tease you with your inability
to comprehend why the average on a normal distribution sits roughly in the middle. :P

xarallei.4279:

It’s BS because like I said, I’m pretty kitten sure the cgc folks would be happy with a lot of gold too and that isn’t something that anyone will see. Sure, there are people out there who probably do behave in that elitist manner, of that I have no doubt. But there are plenty who don’t act that way. It’s not black and white. People want harder, more interesting content for fun. People also like being rewarded for their effort.

If they would they should get it, I don’t mind that at all, it’s the speshull snowflake exclusive rewards that annoy me to no end. Gold, let them be richer than midas.

No, they don’t stop lieing. This thread has demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt that it’s not about the challenge but about the loot. Don’t project your personal desires onto reality. They have spoken already, they want challenging content for the exclusive rewards and nothing else will work for them (your proposition included).

TomCullen.5439:

Hm…without hitting people with a wall of text, it could be easily translated that way imho:

“I want everything that is our there without being as capable as others and without investing the same amount of time”

That’s the problem in nowadays games, everyone wants everything he sees, without investing too much work.

That is indeed what’s being said. They want everything that is out there without being as capable as others and without investing the same amount of time. They want to use time, to cover up the gap in their capability. Because capability might be a currency they don’t have, but time, everyone has. So, the “capable” get their rewards first, the less capable, get their rewards later, after applying the time necessary. So what’s the problem exactly?

Oh yes, let me say it one more time, the problem is, that the “capable” want everyone else to know how “capable” they are, especially the “non capable” guys. They just want to rub it in. They just want to be a visual representation of how much “better” they are than the rest of the plebs.

fFamous.8720:

I really enjoy this topic xD Anet, please, give us hard content, no, hardhard content, with unattainable rewards, skins, titles, etc. I want to see the pain and suffering on the faces of the people :P

Between you and me, I too, want to see extremely hard content in the game. Once that fails flatly we might get a proper expansion, with lore and stuff and they might start designing zones again instead of boxes with events.

Or, it will be a massive success and we’ll all laugh at how we thought we didn’t like raiding (well technically I love raiding, I just don’t like the person I become when I participate in it). Could go both ways. But, honestly, I do wish they add it so the debate is resolved via real world consequences.

Gene Archer.8560:

Huh, I missed that post. Dude shouldn’t say what I’m mad about, but I answered the question anyway that he was responding to, so whatever.

It was more of a figure of speach, glad you didn’t get upset by that still, apologies.

SkiTz.4590:

See there’s the selfish problem I’ve been talking about
You only want people like yourself in the game, Out here doing casual things. You automatically cast stones on people who want something unique or different and label them as filth that needs to be rid of

I personally don’t mind ANY type of players, its an MMORPG. MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE. You don’t decide what type of players are allowed in.

Everyone is welcome to play how they want. Someone wants to be casual, cool. Someone wants to be hardcore, fine. Everyones welcome in my eyes.

But you.. oh no… “GET OUT OF THIS COMMUNITY IF YOU ARENT LIKE ME!!,WE HATE YOUR KIND”.. thats brilliant haha.

No no you missunderstood. It’s not like i want only people like me in the game. Nopes. I just want zero people like you. That’s the thing.

Yeah of course everyone is welcome to play as they want. Nobody says there’s shouldn’t be hard content for you guys to play with if that’s what you like. We’re arguing about the rewards and the need you have for them to be exclusive.

And no, not everyone is welcome in your eyes. Not with the comments you made in this thread. You most certainly made it clear that not everyone is welcome. This is lip service.

I know i’m brilliant. thanks. You didn’t tell me though, did you figure out that bit about the average? I’m very curious about that.

SkiTz.4590:

for the thousandth time, there’s already easy content thats stupidly well rewarded , now they are adding hard content to be well rewarded. They are adding diversity to the game. Whats your problem with that? You mad because you can’t spam auto attack and acquire the unique loot anymore? You actually have to use the dodge button and that’s too hard for you now?

The only ppl that see anet wasted their time are ppl like you who are too casual to see beyond your own selfish views. You want everything to be obtained from just running circles in silverwastes because its super easy and relaxing right? You really wish you could obtain the PvP legendary backpeice by farming some nodes and opening 500 chests in a PvE map dont you? the heck with unique progression, who needs it right, thats not what MMORPGs are about right!?

Actually you’re the reason he’s mad about. He wants less people like you in the game. I do too. You’re everything that’s wrong with the community you represent.

Mmorpgs aren’t about progression. At least not when they first showed up. They were about virtual worlds we get to inhabit. They were about stories and lore. Exploration and adventure. The loot, the progression and everything else were just the secondary methods that were used to enhance the experience. That’s why we used to have weird stuff like weight allowances and different kinds of coins that didn’t automatically went up a tier. We had big races that sometimes couldn’t fit through certain doors, small races that couldn’t wield big 2handed weapons twice their size. We had worlds with souls. And then you came. Tell me, did you finally figured out why the average on a normal distribution is in the middle (and thus 50% of the population will always be below average) or are you still struggling with it?

phys.7689:

no, just because you want challenge doesnt mean you want to be ineffecicient.

lets be honest, no one like working hard and getting a crappy reward. Even if they enjoyed the work.
I enjoy painting, but if someone tells me he will give me 5 dollars per painting, i wont do it.
casual players are also annoyed by this. I remember the first time i beat arah in a pug long ago, and the newish guy, was like thats it? (back then you got very little silver, and most chests were garbage)

acting like anyone likes working hard for less reward than doing something easy is disengenous.

it would be different if there were no rewards in the game at all, but as i said once you add rewards it will come into play.

Since we’re on the jobs analogy. Nobody works for a different kind of money that you get by doing a specific job. Yes? Everyone gets the same currency in different amounts. So going by that, you shouldn’t be asking for unique and exclusive rewards, but for more than what others with easier “jobs” get.

You enjoy painting, but you still expect to be paid in dollars right? and you clearly want more dollars for your work, not a new currency. So why is it that in challenging content you want exclusivity? You should get what everyone else is getting, just more. How much more is open for debate. But nobody gets “special dollars” for working.

And again nobody here is asking for getting less or the same for working hard. In fact most say that you should get more, just not exclusives. People who do hard content should be rewarded by more of what it is people who don’t get. But the same stuff, not different. Just more.

But then again it’s not about that is it? It’s about the bragging rights and the feelings of superiority. You just want to stand out from the plebs. All there is to it. The rest as i said before is just rationalizations. And since someone is going to ask what’s wrong with that. The answer is, that’s not a community I want to be part of. The only thing that remains, is what kind of community anet wants for the game. It hasn’t been such a community untill now, I, personally, want it to stay that way.

SkiTz.4590:

Than nobody is going to play the new challenging content if it doesn’t have “unique progression/reward system”.
Ppl won’t quit the game, but at the same time,
I highly doubt anet wants to see their new challenging content that they worked kitten as dead content…

I can already taste the frustration from some of the ppl here that already assume they won’t be able get the unique rewards from the new challenging content. It’s delicious.
Some of you people are just going to be extremely salty when it gets revealed next saturday that unique rewards/progression will be tied into the challenging content.

It’s not about the loot, but the joy of the challenge, unless it’s got no loot, in which case challenge means nothing. But it definitely isn’t about the loot, no sir. Only about the challenge, as long as the loot is there of course.

phys.7689:

you really dont understand people who want challenge, i think you are confusing it with people who want fame/respect.

If the people who want challenge want it to go along with unique and exclusive rewards, he’s not confusing anything, it’s the same group.

The rest is just convenient rationalizations used to wrap up the need for fame under a more “noble” cause, that of challenge.

SkiTz.4590:

Thank you, but you don’t need to be a mind reader to figure it out.
Anet doesn’t need to specifically say “OP is wrong”
Their actions alone speak for themselves.

That they do, and we’ll soon know.

SkiTz.4590:

You can believe it’s right way to think all you want to Ohoni, at least anet thinks you are completely wrong, and in the end, thats all that matters…

It’s so refreshing to have mind reader in here … you now know what they think … your powers sir, are amazing

Fox.3469:

you know … stuff

You sir are a true romantic.

if i had a hat, i’d take it off, i love romantics.

Get ready for the pvp track for those exclusive rewards (because I my god sir, am a cynic, hm.. maybe that’s why i like romantics so much … hm..)

maddoctor.2738:

Challenging content can have a good story too, epic boss battles unlike the ones you can get in the open world and appropriate rewards that make sense to be rewarded by said boss. A well designed instance can have a much better atmosphere similar to what only good single player games can provide.

One of the reasons that the maps are devoid of context is because they have generic rewards. When you play a new zone or content to get more generic materials, random items to salvage and gold, then that’s why the zone has no soul. If on the other hand fighting in those zones resulted in themed rewards. For example, defeat that powerful Undead Lich to get his Staff of Unholy Power. Generic and boring rewards ARE one of the reasons that zones also feel generic.

And the other one is the low difficulty. If the content resolves to moving around looting bandit chests, following “trains” then the entire concept of a WAR is over. If bosses are there as sacks of hit points that drop loot, there is no feeling of an actual WAR going around. When you are going to fight Ulgoth for example, it should feel like an epic battle with the centaur forces that culminates in a high stakes epic fight with their leader. Instead, due to the abysmal difficulty of the game, players form huge loot trains to get their generic rewards (see above) resulting in a game that feels more like a job than actual entertainment.

Instanced Challenging Group Content (I added Instanced) has the potential to solve all of the above issues. Real Epic Battles with bosses you can’t know you can always win, real loot (exclusive) appropriate and themed for the boss you fight. WAR that feels like a war, fight for survival that feels like a fight for survival.

Yes challenging content can have good stories, as can non challenging content. The hardness of the content doesn’t really affect the quality of the story. As a person I don’t much like instances (totally personal preference) and I prefer well designed zones to them (which in this game are also instanced, bleh).

Loot, that’s true, is part of the problem. Too generic loot to matter to most. But for me, the real problem is the lack of narrative. The lack of life in the zones. The new zones lack the narrative, lack the lore, lack in story much much more than they lack in loot. Adding a cool staff skin in a zone won’t be adding any of that into it. I didn’t see the luminecent armour adding any soul to silverwastes. Having a story, an actuall one, and lore, and life would be a much better option. Something, i strongly suspect we won’t be getting with our four new maps in HoT.

Higher difficulty, or lower difficulty don’t add or subtract from the story. The story is there. Or it isn’t. There can never be an actual concept of war. Not even the illution of it. This isn’t a mature rated game, it can’t touch on the subtle plot lines of a war. So having harder mobs will only increase the frustration of the ppl who engage in the train option. I would like something different al together.

Instanced challenging group content will come, will not be all that challenging. What’s a real epic battle? One you can’t always win? No matter how hard you try? That cannot possibly happen. And how many would you have complete it? 75% of the population? 50% of the population? How many people you’d exclude for it to feel “epic”. Cause if everyone could complete it the rewards wouldn’t be exclusive, would they? What’s the cut off point for you… let’s be specific.

The more i think about it, the more i see that such a thing can’t happen. Or it’ll end up yet another neglected system of the game just like dungeons.

SkiTz.4590:

PorceleinEve.2973:

Astralporing.1957:

Of course you do want it. A content that anyone would be able to do, one that a majority would be able to do, or even one that a large number of people would be able to do will not be considered hard. For obvious reasons.

Half the players are of below average skills. By asking for a hard content (one that requires above average skills) you are asking for content that will be beyond the reach of at least half the game population. Some people – those whose primary concern is indeed to have something that will personally challenge them – may not be thinking about it, but i am certain that majority of people asking for hardcore content are not only perfectly aware of it, but that this exclusion itself is their main goal.

Oh yes, you better believe it it’s all about the exclusion and the perceived feeling of superiority. That’s what’s behind all this talk about loot, loot and more loot. And the correlations of rewards and effort.

Only poor fox (i think, can’t remember names) want’s difficulty for the fun and challenge cause he/she get’s off the “teacher” role (nothing wrong with that, keep doing it ).

The problem with all your posts is the insane amount of exaggeration and thus, everyone ignoring everything you have to say.

“over half the players have below average skills”…. like where do you even come up with stuff like that????

It doesn’t matter what you say dude, endgame challenging content IS COMING whether you like it or not. So just deal with it instead of complaining about things you have no control over.

You said “I seriously doubt anet will be bringing end game progression”… that means you clearly didn’t watch the video at PAX south in january where anet higher ups CLEARLY SAID THOSE EXACT WORDS ARE COMING

Sigh… first of all I can’t help but notice that you confuse 2 people with one. That’s never good. for you. I don’t get affected much by it.

And yes, that’s how normal distributions work. Cause the average tends to be in the middle of the distribution. Thus, it stands to logic (i know i know logic… lol) that the part that’s bellow the average is in fact about 50%. OMG! terrifying thought. Where does he get those numbers huh?

Deal with it? why thanks for the idea, I am. I’m making my opinion known in the forums. Its part of the dealing with it process. And if per chance colin calls me and asks for it personally i’ll give it to him. Just sayn’.

And yes I saw the pax presentation. And i also happen to understand that devs say things that will never happen. I think end game progression is not gonna happen. We’ll get at best a shadow of it. That’s gonna become accesible to all after a while. Might even get a pvp track for it also (wouldn’t want to kitten off the pvp crowd).

so, yes… just to make sure, astral is not me. Unless i suffer from multiple personalities. Then it could be me. But i wouldn’t know. We don’t talk to each other.

Astralporing.1957:

Of course you do want it. A content that anyone would be able to do, one that a majority would be able to do, or even one that a large number of people would be able to do will not be considered hard. For obvious reasons.
Half the players are of below average skills. By asking for a hard content (one that requires above average skills) you are asking for content that will be beyond the reach of at least half the game population. Some people – those whose primary concern is indeed to have something that will personally challenge them – may not be thinking about it, but i am certain that majority of people asking for hardcore content are not only perfectly aware of it, but that this exclusion itself is their main goal.

Oh yes, you better believe it it’s all about the exclusion and the perceived feeling of superiority. That’s what’s behind all this talk about loot, loot and more loot. And the correlations of rewards and effort.

Only poor fox (i think, can’t remember names) want’s difficulty for the fun and challenge cause he/she get’s off the “teacher” role (nothing wrong with that, keep doing it ).

SkiTz.4590:

Where do you get your assumptions from?
harder means less ppl doing it? what The ppl wanting hardcore pve content either quit the game LONG time ago OR moved into spvp/wvw where its usually not a braindead auto attack spam game like you have now…
less ppl do it because they FIND IT BORING.. thats why anet is bringing in endgame progression/content…. because of evident it was that this game was lacking it…

I don’t know, it seems logical to assume that if something is harder to do than what is expected, many will try it, fail and then stop participating in it. Are you saying that because something will be harder, everyone will flock to it like flies on a pile of dung on a hot summer day? Seems doubtful.

I agree most hardcore folk left the game. So what we have here is the extremely small minority that’s left in the game. And those get their fill in pvp and wvw (just not at the EotM). So were does that leaves us?

I seriously doubt anet will be bringing end game progression. They might dip into some raid content (they did hire a raid designer a while back) but I don’t see them doing anything other than that. Or maybe they’ll go the triple worm way and attempt to make more interesting world bosses.

But if they really wanted for progression to be a thing, they’d add more lvls, new tiers of armours, weapons, they would make masteries apply to the whole world etc etc. That’s progression. An area limited progression system, doesn’t sound much like progression at all. Keeping the same weapons and armour doesn’t sound like it’s progression either. What exactly you think they’re gonna do? Add super hard raids that just the top 10% can get and give them super exclusive titles, skins and whatnot? It seems more likely that they’ll add something moderately hard, with some form of semi-exclusive rewards and then after a while nerf it to make it more accessible if the players don’t get it on teq farm lvls after a set amount of time.

Fernling.1729:

WvW, SPvP, jumping puzzles, world bosses, crafting, gathering, dungeons/fractals, and everything else in the game fits that bill.
What makes you think hard content will be enjoyed less than any of the other things anet spends their time on?
There are a lot of people that don’t enjoy autoattack difficult content.

Cause by it’s very nature it will be … um.. hard?
And harder usually means fewer ppl doing it?

Yes I’m sure there are lots and lots of people, I’m just not that sure that they are in this game. But if they are, kudos to them for waiting 2 years for the content to get harder while being bored…

BrotherBelial.3094:

I think we can. Why can’t we have rewarding content?

Because that’s how the game was designed? And usually, when devs change the design of the game in the middle of its life, people turn out sour. They went with ascended gear as the best gear you can get, and then you get to set your own goals and progression.

I suspect that’s one of the reasons the new “progression” system feels so grindy, empty and soulless (to me).

maddoctor.2738:

So a better question would be, how good can it be for the game to add content that is enjoyable by nobody but they feel obligated to do it in order to collect rewards (like a job)?

That easy, that’s very very bad. That’s what you get when you welcome dry top and silverwastes as a revolution and instead of staying clear of those jokes of maps devoid of theme, context, atmosphere and soul, you reward the company by staying in there and participating in their new vision of zones as boxes in which we run events.

How do you think we will get stuck with four maps (most likely) full of “content” (events)? Players were asking for more boxes with events, players will get more boxes with events. Only now, you’ll probably be forced to press 3 buttons instead of one cause the people want more “challenging” content and “appropriate” rewards for their time.

I keep saying it left and right, we are moving away from mmos being virtual worlds (with soul and atmosphere) and into game boxes. And, sometimes, it feels like i’m the only one protesting about it, or at least talking about it.

bleh … there goes my mood…

Vayne.8563:

Let me ask all you hard core types this? What is the good of having hard content, if Anet has to stop making content because too many people aren’t playing. You think this can’t happen, but I think it can.

A better question would be, how good can it be for the game to add content that can be enjoyed by only a handfull of people? When that same amount of workhours could be devoted to something that would benefit everyone in the game instead

BrotherBelial.3094:

All of this. I want rewarding content first. Then we can talk about making things harder.

We can’t have rewarding content in this game. We can’t have game offered progression either. We have to make our own rules about it. It’s the very nature of the game.
Think of it this way, they didn’t add 10 more lvls to the game cause they didn’t want to invalidate anyone’s gear. How much of a progression you’re expecting?

And lets not forget that the only paths of progression offered by the game in this expansion are limited in scope, and super confined to an area of the world map. That should tell us something about the company’s progression plans. I’m affraid you’ll have to make your own progression plan and stick with it.

xarallei.4279:

And then there is the other person who refuses to see beyond black and white. It can’t possibly be that people like challenging content! It’s all about the loot. Hello, it’s probably both. People like the new challenging content and jump to do it for fun. But it’s basic human nature…..people like being rewarded for their effort. If you can get the same thing in some faceroll way, then that’s a slap in the face to people who put in the time and effort. I do wonder, like some others suggested if they made the reward a title and a good amount of gold, whether people would still be stamping their feet about it.

Who? who is this great offender of the gray that only sees things in black and white. She must be a racist. Does she thinks white is better than black?

And what’s this nonsense about loot. Clearly people love the challenge. They long for it like a dried up plant longs for the rain.

I mean we’ve said it so many times already, why doesn’t she just understands it? We don’t care about the loot, we love the challenge, but without the loot we won’t touch it. But the loot is not the important bit. Basic Human nature.

How about challenging content gives out the same rewards with normal content. Would you run it then? Let me guess. NO. Cause it’s not about the loot, or the bragging right at all.

How about challenging content gives out the same rewards with normal content, but in different timeframes? Would you run it then? Probably, but you won’t like it much. You and them plebs having the same loot after a few months. Cause it’s not about the loot, or the bragging at all.

Basic human nature :P Very basic…

dsslive.8473:

And why can’t it be both? To be able to complete challenging content and actually get appropriately rewarded for it? Why would you see it kitten black and white instead of how it actually is, gray.

I want challenging content, i want to be able to have to work on getting better and yes, i like there to be a reward for actually getting better and managing to complete said challenging content. Not to show off or “flaunt my superiority” , but because i want to feel i accomplished something. And have something to show for that. For all i care all everyone else sees is the low quality models that show no detail at all, as long as i can enjoy something that i worked for.

Not every player feels the need to be a special little snowflake, most people in this thread aren’t defending unique rewards because they wanna show everyone else they are better than them (i’m sure you’ll find people like that, but to say everyone is is just 100% wrong) , what they are saying is that people who manage to complete something challenging shouldn’t feel like it didn’t matter, like it’s unimportant, they want to feel rewarded for putting in the time to learn the mechanics and to learn how to complete the fights. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

What i am all for, however, is a token system, you get x amount of tokens at first boss/lowest lvl/etc and that amount rises the higher you go. Similar to fractals. But just like fractal skins, you have to do the content to get the item related to it. Instead of grinding and grinding for gold and buy it of the trading post.

It could be both, as I said there are smaller minorities who operate like that. That doesn’t mean the majority is any different. But usually the harder or challenging content is just the means to an end. And rarely the end in itself.

SkiTz.4590:

No I don’t think I’ll be disappointed.

Good to know that :P

SkiTz.4590:

As far as your challenge/loot theory…. you have no basis for that because there is NO highly challenging AND highly rewarding content in this game.

To your shock and horror let me be the first to inform you that gw2 is not infact the first mmo ever and that some of us, have played others. My hypothesis was based on personal experience and observation from other games. As all hypotheses, mine too would have to be tested with a representative sample if we were to ever find out if it’s true or not. However, the hypothesis seems to work for me, so i’ll hold on to it untill I have some clear evidence that contradict it. Obviously, I do suffer from some sort of confirmation bias as all humans do when they make generalizations based on personal experience. Feel free to form your own hypothesis based on your own personal experience and observations

SkiTz.4590:

Currently , high lvl fractals are probably the most difficult PvE content but clearly not very rewarding at all… yet people still do them on a daily basis don’t they?? why? because SOME ppl still find it fun to do, especially with friends/guildies, some ppl still trying to find their frac skin, some enjoy this type of content and there is clearly a lack of it..

Yes, the unpredictability of the drops, makes sure you have to grind that crap for months sometimes. And yes, some folk may farm them for fun also. There’s always that small minority of players who do so. The rest are there for the skins, or out of boredom.

Conski Deshan.2057:

aha what?

aha, it was for the loot all along, and not for the challenge as some of you were claiming in the beginning of this thread.

SkiTz.4590:

What exactly are you “ahaing”

snip snap

Most of the ppl are just hoping that this new “challenging content” DOES NOT add more scraps to the system… theres enough of this… what there isn’t enough of is UNIQUE reward/progression.

that it is for the loot all along and not the need to be challenged. I think challenge doesn’t play into it at all, it’s the loot that makes it important.

I think you’ll be dissappointed friend, they seem to be moving the game into a more grindy state, not a reduced one. If there are unique rewards, I would expect them to be really really grindy.

As for progression we don’t get to choose it seems, we’ll all have to grind the same masteries till we get them all, so whatever area locked progression we’ll be getting with this expansion the one thing you can be sure of, is that it’s not going to be unique in any way. We’ll train gliders and mushrooms first then slowly (but I hope not painfully slow) we’ll also grind everything else.

Draknar.5748:

It has nothing to do with superiority and everything to do with feeling like you have been proportionately rewarded for the challenge. If you could get the same rewards for far less effort, no one would ever do the harder content.

I beg to differ, but that’s based on personal experience and that has little value when applying it to the whole.

TheGrimm.5624:

So do I expect ANet to have alternate ways to acquire new items of interest? Yes, they have done so in the past. Do I expect to work for them, I hope so. Do I think they will have some sort of cross this line or die content, no they are usually pretty good at inviting the players into content versus forcing them into it. Good gaming!

Yeah, they probably will add them. And the grind will be glorious or horrible, depending on how you feel about the grind.
If they stick to that, that would be great, if they don’t, and they start the forcing stuff, they’ll hurt for it (personal opinion, to be verified or dismissed by the results).

SkiTz.4590:

Challenge for the sake of challenge? why would you even play this game for the sake of challenge?? If I want a challenge, theres a plethora of “challenging” games that are head and shoulders above gw2 in terms of “challenge”

MMORPGs in general , in their nature are NOT played for saying “i’m just doing challenging stuff for the sake of challenge”.

SSC failed because it got boring REAL QUICK and the LOOT was terrible compared to farming champ trains or orr. Thus, DEAD CONTENT. That’s what happened to every freaking thing in PvE leading up to silverwastes. In terms of PvE content, No one even bothers to venture outside silverwastes unless its for a daily dung/frac run. That’s what happens when you have no unique reward system or progression. All maps/content are dead except the 1 thats giving the most gold/hour…

Don’t tell me that, I already knew that it’s all about the loot and perceived feelings of superiority.

Just read the thread from the beginning and see how people complained how it’s not about the loot when I said so. I just waited patiently till you guys admit it to yourselves, so I can post an “aha” post.

So .. “aha”?

Coulter.2315:

When people accomplish something they like to have a token which proves it… Do you think people burn their Degrees after uni? You are trying to trick people, no one is asking for challenge with no recognition… Recognition is a fundamental part of humanity – we are pack animals…

Stop trying to get people to argue in your demented world – its not real. Rewards and challenge have been requested for this game for a long time.

If you spent half as much time in game playing as you do on the forums begging (trolling?) for “no challenge because I don’t want to be left without stuff” you would be a player capable of achieving whatever the game could throw at you by now.

So now it’s all about the loots. Glad to hear it. I got confused cause some of you in here were arguing that what mattered was the challenge. And when I said that you’re just doing it for the loot and the never ending need to show your fellow man how much better you are than them, you guys told me I was so so wrong. Glad to hear I wasn’t.

I don’t try to argue with people, I just comment on stuff I find interesting, and make my opinion known to the company. This isn’t a debate club. We’re not debating anything, we’re just making sure the company knows what the playerbase wants.

I’m very happy to hear, you have instructions on how to spend my free time. Fortunately for you, nobody asks for no challenge, it’s a falsehood your side of things perpetuates cause you guys just love attacking a strawman. Me, personally, I like things mellow, but that’s just me. Everyone else in here is very happy for you guys to be getting you challenging game content, just not on top of theirs. Hell, they’ll probably do it themselves if the rewards can be gotten via personal effort and application of time.

What most people here really complain about, is that perceived change of direction for the game on the part of the company, that nobody from the company bothers to tell the players. I reckon they’re pretty happy having us fighting amongst ourselves. The “hardcore” crowd is very good at that. The vocal minority that gets upset when ppl dissagree with them, and feel the need to yell so hard as to cover everyone else’s voices.

SkiTz.4590:

it’s also this simple… NO ONE is going to bother doing this new content that anet spent valuable time and resources if there are not UNIQUE rewards. They might do it just because its new for the first week or so, and than it will be dead content if there is no unique reward or unique progression towards a reward

Good thing you guys love challenge for challenge’s sake and are not what so ever interested in better and exclusive loot to show off in LA. For a moment there you had me confused :P

Where are all them noble warriors who kept telling me how it’s not about loot at all and I have it all confused in my mind I wonder.

Where are all those people who kept telling everyone how SSC failed cause it was boring and not because the rewards weren’t worth it, cause they just don’t care about the rewards…

maddoctor.2738:

This is one thing that I’ve been wondering too and I don’t think it’s reasonable to think so. Otherwise, in GW2 case, they would’ve left a very long time ago.

Keep pushing the game in the direction where the “hardcore” and “elites” will be rubbing it in their faces and see them migrate in no time.

The only reason that it hasn’t happen yet, is because you just can’t rub it in. At the moment there’s nothing in the game that you can’t get by simply grinding slowly through it (except the one off event stuff but that’s just an annoyance).

Put stuff they can’t patiently and on their own pace get for themselves and see them wonder what the hell they’re doing. Rewards are important to them too apparently, not just the folks who cheer on for the “challenging” and “exclusive” content.

And no, treating them like dirt and telling them that “look here, there are other stuff you can get you pleb, so shut up” (cause that’s what’s being said in this thread, more or less) won’t help them stay, either.

Now you may dismiss this, or you may not. And there’s only one way to find out. I just hope Anet will let everyone know that the boat is now changing course from inclusive to exclusive (nothing wrong with that, it’s their game they can steer it however they wish) but preferably before people start spending 50 euros for it…

Lucius.2140:

Then read the complete post lol

I did, why would you think otherwise.

You are missing the point of this conversation. It’s not to win it

Lucius.2140:

He could just want to be better in the game, witch its fine, even if you dont considere its worthy, aslong as he does, its fine (there are toons of people that get beter in their hobbies).

this is actually a lie…

the problem isn’t getting better, he can get better already. it’s the rewards he wants for it.

at least one of the problems.

Thaddeus.4891:

So your point is unless you are profession in a competitive activity you shouldn’t try to better yourself and nobody should reward the skill or dedication of someone?

If you want to better yourself, to be honest, open a book, get an education, do something nice for your fellow man, travel to tibet and meditate with the dalay lama, start eating healthy, exercise, donate money to charity, etc etc

If you seek rewards for bettering yourself you’re missing the point of the bettering.

Yes yes I know, you didn’t mean it like that. But then again, maybe i didn’t mean it like that either…

CandyHearts.6025:

So what I’m getting from OP is this example

1 man practices, keeps in shape, does all he can to prepare for a competitive sport.
2nd man can’t be bothered, because he doesn’t enjoy being active.

Both participate. 1st man ran the whole 10 miles. The other man took a nap and watched television and takes a taxi to the finish line and expects the same prize.

How is that fair to the person who earned it?

It’s not. And that’s what should matter more over.

It’s the same reason why drops and rewards are different for story mode dungeons vs explorable.

this isn’t a competitive sport.
it isn’t even a competition.
the aim isn’t for you to prove how better you are than your fellow men.
you want something challenging and hard and competitive? start playing chess.

Fox.3469:

I’ve played since the start of GW1 and i’ve never felt any of their expansions or games had a lack of content. In fact there isn’t a single one of their releases that hasn’t amazed me in terms of content for the money we were paying. If that doesn’t give you some faith i don’t know what will.

I officially declare that I am now full of faith in anet because you, yes you, told me that there hasn’t been a single one of their releases that didn’t amaze you. That’s all I wanted to hear. Now I can put my fears to rest. YOU were amazed by them, and that’s all I need to know.

Do I need to go on or we’re ok now?

maddoctor.2738:

How is the nature of the game going to change if they add some instanced challenging content? Assuming it’s instanced of course, because if it’s not, it will not be challenging no matter what they say so it’s irrelevant. How exactly is that going to affect the game so badly that players are afraid of it?

It’s not the instanced challenging content that’s for sure. It’s that feeling of things changing in the open world. It’s not just one big change that’s causing this. It more like a hundred small changes that leave you this aftertaste and you start to get suspicious.

A few things that come to mind are.. that mastery number right next to your name, that warning about how things in hot open world will be different, the removal of all sense of theme and atmosphere from the new zones and their transformation into boxes that we use to run events and grind masteries (like silverwastes), the addition of leader boards to adventures (the new heart system, instead of getting nice little stories to go with our zone we now get to compete), the moving away from play as you want into the you need to play this way or you’ll go bust (train gliding and mushrooms first and fak off if you wanted the lore ones), the rewarding of competing with others instead of working together (prepare to see things change if they add raids and leaderboards) etc etc.

It’s a feeling that we’re moving away from the “inclusive” and we’re heading full speed ahead towards the “exclusive”. It’s not one big thing, it’s just many small ones. We’re moving away from the world and we’re becoming more and more a game that needs to be gamed.

Don’t know if i managed to convey the feeling…

I think the underlying problem here is not the rewards or how challenging or hard something is. The issue many have at the moment is that they suspect that with this expansion the very “nature” or “character” of the game they love will change and become something different that they feel they won’t like. That’s why there’s such huge opposition to some of the changes.

At least that’s what i’m getting, and in all honesty that’s what i feel is happening. The rewards or the hardness of the content are irrelevant. It’s the worry that the very nature of the game will change, and for some there are no alternatives.

Arewn.2368:

I’ve already conceded that there are such people:
“Yes, there are absolutely people out there who want challenging content just so that they can be smug and have exclusive rewards. These people do exist. But that doesn’t mean they are the only ones who exist. There can be more then one reason for wanting something. More then one motive for a particular goal.”

I’ve never pretended those people don’t exist.
I’m highlighting that there are other, perfectly legitimate, reasons for wanting challenging or hard content. And that many people want content like that for these other reasons.

yes of course there are. they just don’t ask for special skins for it. that’s all. that’s what i’m saying.

btw did you know that legendary gear doesn’t have better stats than ascended? i still can’t believe it (just found out)

Arewn.2368:

No where has my reason been “so that I can be a smug chump in LA getting off to feelings of superiority over the plebs”.
Sorry, that’s not me. And I would argue that that’s not how most people who want challenging or hard content are either.

For something that’s “not you”, you sure bother a lot to defend it. Don’t you…

and you keep conveniently forget the for long bit. oh, and that this is an mmo.

I’ve been a raider for quite some time in wow (in fact, i got burned by it down to a crisp, as it turns out working in real life doesn’t help out with server firsts etc etc) and I can tell you flat out that people who want special skins hidden behind “hard” content want it not for the challenge or the thrill of the hunt, but for the bragging rights and the showing off rights.

If it’s not you, that’s great, I like you more already. But please, don’t try to come in here and tell us that the people who scream speshul skins and hard content in an mmo aren’t. Cause they are, they most definitely are. They want to stand in LA and get asked how did they got that skin and how, they want others to marvell at their awesomeness and that’s all there is to it.

xarallei.4279:

On the off chance that you are genuinely confused, I will explain. Ascended gear is the highest stat level in the game. Legendary backpacks are ascended gear. They are NOT a higher level stat gear than ascended. Ascended backpacks are also obtainable in numerous other ways (mawdrey, spinal, grenth, dwayna, not to mention all the fractal ones). Therefore there is no stat advantage given for obtaining the legendary back pack. If there were no other possible way to obtain ascended back pieces except for this legendary that you can only get in pvp or whatever, that would obviously be very wrong and against the spirit of this game. Stat gear should always have numerous ways of being obtained. But that isn’t the case here because you can get yourself an ascended backpiece. It’s only the skin you are missing out on.

Really?

Wow I had no idea, I always thought that legendary gear has better stats. It doesn’t?

I’m a totally pro player as you can clearly see.

So the only benefit of the legendary is the free stat changes and the “cool” skin?

and I play this game 3 years almost.

Wanna take a guess who feels like an idiot right now?
not me, I don’t mind ignorance (especially mine, other’s it can get mildly annoying). But thanks for educating me. I keep learning something new every day.

So the skin doesn’t serve any other purpose than to show it off to the plebes. Not sure it’s better or worse than it having stats.

xarallei.4279:

And so? You can MAKE ascended backpacks. It’s not like this legendary backpack is the only ascended backpack out there. There is mawdry, there are the spinal blades, there are the dwayna and grenth backpacks. Seriously…

But you told me just a post above that ascended doesn’t have better stats… I almost felt bad i crafted the kitten ed set.

So it does have better stats after all.

Do legendary items have better stats than ascended? Since the packs will be legendary and all that … it’s gotten me curious.

xarallei.4279:

PorceleinEve.2973:

Arewn.2368:

The devs have stated that if they add raids, raid gear WILL NOT be stronger then other gear, and they don’t plan on adding higher gear tiers in the first place. Ascended will remain the top.

And then they added legendary backpacks. They’re reliable like that (the devs). Their word is like a binding contract. Well, almost.

And? So what? Legendary backpacks are ascended level gear. Ascended, while grindy can be gotten by anyone. I see no problem here. It’s a new shiny skin for people to work towards and it does not give anyone a stat advantage.

funny that, i though ascended gear had better stats. it doesn’t? hell i crafted all that shi7 for nothing it seems… bleh

Palador.2170:

A small word to those that want exclusive looks as rewards for harder content:

I will not respect you for having these “rare” skins. I will not bow down to you, treat you any better than any other player, or even assume you have actual skill at the game. I do not care if you have the PvP wings, raid-only boots, and the kitten less chaps of WvW domination.

However, if I see you wearing all of the above, I’ll know you’re a clown that can’t dress themselves. That you’re someone shallow enough to think that such things should be important to how people view you. And that you’re someone I’d prefer to avoid, if not outright disrespect.

My respect goes to those that prove themselves to be good people. That know how to make a good looking character. That I’d actually want to be around. THESE are the people that make a good community, rewards don’t do that.

I don’t want overly locked or “high skill only” skins, because that can cut them off from a lot of good players. I want those good players to be happy and stick around. But when such exclusive skins do happen, I don’t cry too much about it. It’s just another indicator on my “worthless player” check-off list.

If only I could make your post my signature…

Arewn.2368:

The devs have stated that if they add raids, raid gear WILL NOT be stronger then other gear, and they don’t plan on adding higher gear tiers in the first place. Ascended will remain the top.

And then they added legendary backpacks. They’re reliable like that (the devs). Their word is like a binding contract. Well, almost.

Arewn.2368:

PorceleinEve.2973:

Nobody does hard content for the joy of doing something hard for long, unless you bribe them with rewards that will make them feel unique and better than their fellow man. Simple as that.

There are absolutely people who do hard content simply for the joy of doing it. Some people find the hard content itself to be fun, and the simple sense of achievement in finally completing it is the only reward they sought from it.
That you think otherwise is simply an indication that you yourself are not one such type of person, and that you aren’t involved with such people.
Nothing wrong with that of course, people enjoy different things. Just don’t for a second think there aren’t people who actually enjoy hard content.
I don’t think of myself as someone particularly “hardcore”, but I’ve certainly gone out of my way to do hard things in games for no other reason then because I thought it was fun.

You’re wrong, nobody does hard content for the joy of hard content FOR LONG. I just applauded your honesty, don’t start with the lies now. You want the rewards that come with it, you want to bask in LA’s sun with your shinies and have the ppl marvel at your greatness. Take away the rewards, and you’ll do it once in a blue moon when you’re bored.

Arewn.2368:

too much blah blah to quote here. ..

The problem with applying that philosophy too liberally is that
1) if you get everything you want, you have less motivating you to play
2) it destroys the social motivation system which is so important to MMOs. A cool and difficult to acquire skin isn’t just enjoyable for the person who owns it. It also adds to the experience of everyone who sees it in the possession of the person who owns it. It’s an important atmospheric element of any MMO, and a short-sighted “I want it, give” mentality will completely destroy that.

So challenging content is one that needs you focus to play at your best using everything you got on your skill bar…

What’s hard content then? How is it different than challenging cause I didn’t get it.

Finally it’s refreshing to see one of the hard + challening crowd to admit that’s it’s not about anything else than the rewards and the feeling of superiority you’ll get by displaying it to the plebes in LA. I applaud your honesty. If more ppl were like that, we might even get games we enjoy more.