Guild Wars 2

For great justice!

If you take a good hard look at the skill trees that include buffs to condition damage based thieves you should feel underwhelmed. So many of the best group utility and stronger damage traits simply are not there.

If you think about how much Power, Precision and Crit % you will sacrifice to make a decent condition damage set you should feel uncomfortable. More so, you should know that condition damage thrives in sPvP, which you wont need a set for. Building a condition damage set for PvE or WvW may end up being a setback.

I speak from the perspective of a thief who started to build condition damage first, then later went back to replace every bit of condition damage in my build and armor.

Why? Well you will never get 100% of you condition damage worth out of every single fighting scenario, but you will get 100% out of the other traits. You will almost never be the only profession stacking bleeds! This is a major flaw with building condition damage as you are immediately nerfed when enough of other condition stacking classes are around. The more people around, the weaker you become. You can still get plenty of damage out of your condition based skills without throwing a bunch of emphasis on condition damage. A power/crit/back-stab thief will still apply bleeds, they just won’t rely on them.

Keep in mind that I am not telling you not to build condition damage. I am only telling you that I would definitely never tell you to build condition damage… I wonder how many people have actually tried both.

Updated to include Critical Haste.

Oh kitten I’m gonna replace Furious Retaliation and check out Critical Haste tonight.

Major flaw on my part. Use Infusion of Shadow instead of Slowed Pulse.

@ Hellkaiser – You bring up several good points.

I have been using Signet of Agility rather than Assassin due to the boon removal from that. It adds a ton of precision, which works well with this build and removes de-buffs from you and your whole team. A very effective signet indeed. I still switch to Signet of Shadows whenever I need heavy mobility in a fight, even though it will be over-written by endurance swiftness procs from the Acrobatics tree.

Signet of Malice is no joke. You can be practically dead and pop a few DB’s whirling yourself back to full health. If you are decent at avoidance or dodging, your signet will most likely keep you alive without ever having to use the heal function of it. This is not speculation, I have used in for almost every dungeon path in the game thus far.

If I were to remove Assassin’s Reward, the points would be placed in Shadow Arts to get the 25 point trait adding might (Hidden Assassin). If I were to remove Slowed Pulse, it would not be to add Shadow’s Embrace to remove boons because I hardly ever sit around for 3 seconds in stealth. I would sooner, and have already used Infusion of Shadow, which provides more damage and stealth applications to this particular back-stab / blind / healing build.

But lets go back to Slowed Pulse and its purpose here. When you use DB twice in this build (combined with Signet of Malice) you gain life regeneration. Now DB should only be used for this style of healing or as a safe opener. This is because you shouldn’t be building condition damage to begin with and stealth back-stabs will do way more damage. I’m also really fond of Dancing Dagger, but hey, that might just be me.

As far as promoting condition builds.. well that’s certainly not me. I have always advised not to build condition damage. It’s currently on useful in sPvP for the most part. Its hardly useful in PvE and WvW. Focus on Power/Crit/Crit%/Tough/Vit.

In regards to Daggerstorm, I doubt you read the rest of this thread because the topic has been thoroughly exhausted. I use Thieves Guild about 75% of events. I generally switch to Daggerstorm for events that chain spawn mobs in dungeons because I can get 2-3 heavy damage and healing applications per event rather than just one cast of Thieves Guild.

I never stated that this was the best build out there. This is an amazing build for survivability, teamwork, blinds and heavy dps. Its a great place for new PvE players to start and not-so-new players to dominate. As your personal preferences take hold and gear improves you can change the traits up to add more dps or whatever the hell you are looking for.

Executioner is pretty incredible. Also, foregoing the Shadow Arts tree leaves the group without blinds for the most part, unless you use a pistol. Blinds imho, are one of our most useful profession components. I will not speak to whether condition builds or critical strike builds are superior, there are clear advantages to both, as intended.

@ Kodo – D/D is my favorite weapon combo and is what I use because I like the tools and damage it provides. But for leveling, especially because you would prefer a more “stand your ground” approach, you might wan’t to try out ye ol’ Sword/Pistol combo. It smacks down and stuns one target while releasing repetitive blows on all targets in a frontal cone. Mix this with some good power, toughness and vitality gear while using traits and utilities that you feel keep you alive best like thieves guild and shadow refuge. The sword hits multiple targets, I usually rounded a few mobs and cleaved them to death while strafing when I was leveling.

@ Ohoni – Nice post. I’m probably gonna try out some builds like this since I already have a set of my old faithful Power/Crit gear for the crit build. One thing I love about this game is how easy it is to obtain max stats.

I been playing around more with that life on crit food grubnick mentioned. It is very sexy in combination with this or any other crit build. Y’all should try it out. End rant.

@ Martym – I have dabbled quite a bit in glass-cannon builds. The build you posted is great and many thieves will find great success in sPvP and even WvW using these kind of traits. In WvW, I personally still prefer one built around being a tough thief and surviving long encounters with enemy players, or scrapping in smaller groups. This is a personal choice. All of your points are valid and pure DPS builds are great to smack players down and show dominance.

In PvE dungeons, I would not recommend such a build… the idea is team-think. Are you providing the best defense and utility you should be? Are you surviving the tougher encounters and dungeon paths that the most slippery profession in the game should? Your revival abilities for down players are superior to most professions and your ability to blind and keep your group alive is very substantial.

@ grubnick – Thanks for bringing up yet another really important point. Many food buffs in the game provide substantial abilities and Life-Steal is only one of them. I personally use magic find food because I lack the magic find I love so much in world areas. Magic find gear itself is glass cannon and a great example of what not to bring a PvE dungeon.

There are many great choices to bring and I’d love for more people to discuss them here if possible.

One of the key points I make in the post is that condition damage is mostly worthless for PvE dungeons. I can also say that stealing is something you shouldn’t be too concerned with aside from breaking out of CC.

Several encounters or bosses will trap you in crowd control effects that can be broken by using steal or shadow-step. Keep this in mind thieves.

And finally, I do not recommend putting even one point in Trickery for PvE dungeons. Shadow Arts will provide blinds and toughness to keep you and your group alive in your moments of greater need.

Hah. I should rename this the Daggerstorm viability thread. Both abilities are good.

I use Daggerstorm on the encounters that spawn hectic relentless trash constantly. There are plenty of these in the harder explorer dungeons without question. You don’t have to sit in the middle of the packs, you can work the outside and slow the mobs for your group while still doing fairly strong dps to most targets. My crit build (the point of this post) crits constantly on most targets for 2 – 2.5k depending on which gear set I am using.

I use Thieves Guild on almost everything else. A couple hard hitting mobs or single target fights. Fights that require less zone control and less AoE generally. No one ever said you must only choose one skill and stick with it. Some of you will fall in love with this ability and use it as your only elite skill. I can’t hate on that.

Weapons in this game carry the highest stats of any item. Be really careful when you craft or buy your Exotic weapons.

I don’t use full Zerker and I didn’t write that I did. Wasting a bunch of gold or mats crafting all Knight’s or Valk isn’t really necessary. You get a ton of toughness and Vitality from Exotic Emerald and Beryl jewels. You could grab a few pieces of Rubicon gear from Karma and spend NO money or mats. Those provide strong base stats, the chest happens to be very sexy. You are also gonna farm dungeons fairly quick and get filler items there.

The strongest items for stats remain to be weapons and jewelry. I would focus on crafting those first, the armor you can snag from dungeon tokens fairly easy if you are running with the right bunch of fellows. I used Zerker to fill in all the armor slots I didn’t buy from Karma to start. Currently running with 16.5k HP and a boatload of toughness.

My main point must still lie in the fact that currently the Power tree is not worth it’s weight in salt. Your second build posted is a much better option imho. Unless the Power tree is buffed in some fashion it relies heavily on poisons and condition duration which, at it’s current state, will not provide much to your build.

Acrobatics is very helpful up to the 15 point minor perk, and I love it even more at the 20 point level for Assassin’s reward. We spend points constantly, and more healing is always helpful, especially since most of us will use very few stats on +healing.

Trickery points are a sexy tease. If you really feel they are worth for the loss of mobility and excess healing, coupled with more vitality, then so be it. But, from my experience, I find that tree worthless for stats, and underwhelming is viability due to the fact that we need no condition damage in PvE dungeons. I hardly use steal in dungeons due to the fact that I am constantly switching targets, rezzing downed players, and focusing on single target dps.

You already posted that you aren’t focusing on condition damage. In that case, regardless, you should focus on the most rewarding utility spells/traits available to the class. This will allow you to focus your armor and runes/sigils on more damage.

You should get your Vitality and Toughness also from traits and not so much the 6 major slots of armor.

When you gear Knight’s or Valk you will sacrifice a ton of + Crit % dmg that you could have had from Berserker gear. Although, I suppose you could balance it out by getting all damage jewelry instead. The crit damage % plays well with power and precision for obvious reasons.

A D/D thief in PvE doesn’t need any condition dmg and certainly doesn’t need condition duration, so the Power tree leaves much to be desired and for the most part and isn’t worth the points imho.

The Toughness and Vitality trees will add tons of mobility and healing mechanisms that will keep you and your team alive for the long run. I have a pretty good thread in this forum titled “PvE Build – How to build a powerful PvE thief.” I’m not saying it is the only or “best” build out there, but it is strong and the general discussion should be very helpful to you.

After careful analysis I have found my preference in elite skills.

I still find Daggerstorm most valuable in almost all trash scenarios. Thieves Guild will do serious DPS in boss or single target encounters. There is no harm in switching talents per encounter and I encourage everyone to do so.

@ Gearing:

An easy way to gear for PvE for a new thief is to grab a couple strong pieces of Karma Gear – Use chest chest, shoulders, legs or hat for some steady stats. Craft berserker gear to fill in the rest of the slots. A strong mix of Emerald, Beryl and Ruby jewels will add strong DPS and toughness to your build. Happy hunting.

@ Zarrak – Thank you, I love the ability as well. Especially for certain chain encounters, the low cool-down is quite useful.

@ Shooopa and Metaphorm – I thoroughly respect the comments you two have made in reference to Daggerstorm as well. Tonight I will dine on thieves guild whilst dining on Explorer content and hopefully get a better judgement on the skill in general.

I am not retracting my love of Daggerstorm just yet, it can be beneficial in many situations and the sheer healing power of the spell should not be overlooked imho.

@ Nefarious – TY for showing love for something I had not aforementioned and enlightening the community. For single target, assuming you can hold your ground, CnD, backstab, and straight forward attacks can RICK-ROLL targets. CnD is more than just an evasive ability and should be viewed as such. Keep in mind that this build causes blind in stealth and generally is about keeping your team alive as well.

Daggerstorm is very effective due to its Stability mechanism. Combined with Signet of Malice and Shadow Refuge it gives you guaranteed heavy healing for a short amount of time for no initiative cost vs DB which costs a whole lot.

I generally am not worried too much about pulling extra mobs except when I’m out in the world. In the world I don’t worry so much about dying anyhow though.

I’ll spend more time with the other Elites now though and give the others more consideration. It’s pretty obvious I struck a nerve with my Daggerstorm comment.

The sigils do not stack. Only use one Sigil of Accuracy and make the second one a Sigil of precision if you want even more crit chance.

Ok, so I have read a lot of terrible posts about thieves being weak in PvE, so I decided to shed some light on just one of the many powerful PvE builds. Enjoy!

0 / 30 / 20 / 20 / 0

Critical Strikes (30 points):
Side Strike (III) – Critical Haste (X) – Executioner (XI)

Shadow Arts (20 points):
Infusion of Shadow (V) – Cloaked in Shadow (VI)

Acrobatics (20 points):
Power of Inertia (II) – Assassin’s Reward (X) or Quick Recovery (IX)

No power? Why?

Well, the power tree only offers power mixed with condition duration. Condition damage is in a weak state right now and should be avoided. And of course, most of the gear you craft or buy will already have power. The critical strike tree will offer 2 great stats and traits that are downright powerful. The other two trees will offer tons of mobility and most importantly, the ability to survive.

Gearing:

I feel the stats are currently prioritized in this order:

Power > Precision > Crit Dmg % > Toughness >/= Vitality

Take note that condition damage is not listed and that is exactly how I feel about it.

Note: This does not mean you should only build items with the top 3 stats. You must mix in toughness and vitality if you plan to survive the tougher encounters. A lot of people are arguing about which of those stats is better. The answer is neither. YOU NEED BOTH.

Utility Skills: (My preference)

Signet of Malice – Life on hit owns. Thieves hit quite often. You can still use it as a heal.

Signet of Agility or Signet of Shadows – Depending on whether I want speed/mobility or more dmg/de-buff removal.

Shadow Refuge – This will mesh well with the traits chosen. It will provide a small heal. It creates a combo field for allies. It is great for hiding yourself while reviving you downed teammates (something all players should do).

Caltrops – AoE bleed application and a major crippling effect. Less Death Blossom needed – More back-stab etc.

Shadowstep: (Option 1) – To remove stuns and escape all sorts of fun things during boss fights.

Scorpion Wire: (Option 2) – Great at pulling and isolating specific targets.

Daggerstorm: I shouldn’t have to explain this one.

Edit: Thieves guild is amazing. I use it most of the time now. I still got love for Daggerstorm though and use it in spam chain encounters.

Weapons:

I use two weapon combinations – But use whatever works for you per usual.

D/D – I use this most of the time. When I play with my friends I can get away with doing max damage with D/D. Drop Caltops, fly around causing even more opening bleeds with DB. Use dancing dagger for AoE. Cloak and Dagger with back-stab spam works here. Under 50% Heartseeker will own with Executioner trait from the front side. If you run into trouble Cloak and Dagger or Shadow Refuge out (also causing a blind due to traits). Don’t forget to use Daggerstorm/Thieves guild!

D/P – I use this when things get rough and surviving is an issue. Drag yourself to targets and Blind with 3. Use 5 constantly to blind targets for your team thereafter. Sneak in HS whenever possible as the target drops below 50%. Stealth whenever you can to Blind and retreat.

SB – Oh kitten I can’t fight in melee range cause I am injured or scared. Please allow me to create a poison combo field for the team with 4 and Blast away with 2.

I hope this guide helps people find the success that I have found and feel they are contributing more to the group. Thanks for reading.

Which explorer dungeon sets are my fellow Charr thieves going for?

I was thinking about mix/matching some TA gear with a mask from another dungeon.

I just did 3 AC Explorer runs in 2.5 hours with only 1 death.

Discuss.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention the free shadow-step. That counts too.

Sword / Dagger is not weak. I used it a considerable amount leveling up because you can essentially cleave multiple targets without spending any initiative. It excels at tagging mobs in events throughout the game.

Keep in mind that initiative you don’t use on Death Blossom can be used on dancing dagger with the S/D combo and provide excellent AOE damage consistently throughout a fight.

You also get a dodge mechanism with your 3 and an escape mechanism with your 2.

All in all a strong combo if you ask me.