Showing Posts For Ravoku.1852:
An idea for how to make sword more fluid:
#1.1-1.3) Reduce the pre/post casts to make the entire chain 2.0 seconds long. Reduce the coefficients to 0.65, 0.65, and 1.05 (this is actually a 2% increase to AA DPS). Leave the weakness and cripple duration at 2 seconds
I can’t say I’d be against a small damage shave to make it that fast. However, if the devs are against cutting it down to ~2 seconds, I think just speeding it up 10% to put it at ~2.25 and calling it a day would be fair as well. You can even test what this would feel like if you have the speed mushrooms from Itzel lore. I have, and it’s just noticeable enough. Not too fast, not too slow.
But this is a 2% damage buff. I think having it sped up to 2 seconds would minimize the chance of being stuck in an aftercast when needing to use headshot or flanking strike.
Yes, I saw that it’s a 2% DPS buff. When I say I’m okay with a damage shave, I mean I’d be willing to part with a shave to the base damage values if it were lowered that drastically. However, I’m not confident the devs would be willing to lower it that much to be as fast as dagger. That’s why I offered a middle ground of 10% as a start w/o a damage loss to put it more in line to what the others are doing.
It’s also worth mentioning that the condition durations are way off between the 3. Sword’s cripple + weakness last only 2s in addition to being slowest to access, while dagger and staff have 6s on poison and 8s on vulnerability respectively, with faster access.
Lastly, speeding up sword alone won’t address the aftercast bug because it’s not a byproduct of sword’s slowness. You can trigger the additional ~0.5 second delay with the Speed Mushroom boost as well as having Quickness on. It’s a bug in its own right and needs to be addressed individually.
I think it would be more acceptable for them to reduce the milliseconds of aftercast on the skills and the coefficients than to give AA DPS a 10% boost. Consequently, S/X would become more viable due to to the higher weakness and cripple uptime and the increase in fluidity of the other skills on the bar not being locked behind a pre/aftercast.
I’m not sure if you understand the nature of the pre/aftercast issue. The break in fluidity from other skills on your bar does not happen every single time. Most of the time, the sequence does complete in 2.52 seconds, so fluidity and cripple/weakness uptime would not change. It’s a bug, and addressing it should not be viewed as a buff.
As to whether or not sword needs to be sped up for balance between it and the other melee options is a different topic of debate. Personally, I think it’s warranted given the sequence times and effects of Staff and Dagger vs. Sword – especially when you consider that Thief is not a profession that can afford slower animations as much as other professions due to lack of passive defenses (i.e. protection, aegis, healing presence).
P.I. is set to trigger its damage when the mark expires. Currently, the mark removes when the target goes down or dies (by design). As players receive invulnerability when they go down, the damage from P.I. probably just gets negated. I could see allowing the buff to continue on downed enemies in the future.
Any thoughts on a 3 year old Sword bug that adds a ~0.5 second precast to any non-instant skill? I’d normally just let this one sit in its own report/thread, but given the amount of time it’s been in the game, and how difficult it was to pin down, I thought I’d mention it. I can give any additional information you need as to the behavior of this bug, and I’ve got another discussion thread and bug report open with more details.
Also, good to see some presence, keep up the communication.
(edited by Ravoku.1852)
An idea for how to make sword more fluid:
#1.1-1.3) Reduce the pre/post casts to make the entire chain 2.0 seconds long. Reduce the coefficients to 0.65, 0.65, and 1.05 (this is actually a 2% increase to AA DPS). Leave the weakness and cripple duration at 2 seconds
I can’t say I’d be against a small damage shave to make it that fast. However, if the devs are against cutting it down to ~2 seconds, I think just speeding it up 10% to put it at ~2.25 and calling it a day would be fair as well. You can even test what this would feel like if you have the speed mushrooms from Itzel lore. I have, and it’s just noticeable enough. Not too fast, not too slow.
But this is a 2% damage buff. I think having it sped up to 2 seconds would minimize the chance of being stuck in an aftercast when needing to use headshot or flanking strike.
Yes, I saw that it’s a 2% DPS buff. When I say I’m okay with a damage shave, I mean I’d be willing to part with a shave to the base damage values if it were lowered that drastically. However, I’m not confident the devs would be willing to lower it that much to be as fast as dagger. That’s why I offered a middle ground of 10% as a start w/o a damage loss to put it more in line to what the others are doing.
It’s also worth mentioning that the condition durations are way off between the 3. Sword’s cripple + weakness last only 2s in addition to being slowest to access, while dagger and staff have 6s on poison and 8s on vulnerability respectively, with faster access.
Lastly, speeding up sword alone won’t address the aftercast bug because it’s not a byproduct of sword’s slowness. You can trigger the additional ~0.5 second delay with the Speed Mushroom boost as well as having Quickness on. It’s a bug in its own right and needs to be addressed individually.
(edited by Ravoku.1852)
I’ve reported it as a bug in game after noticing it more and more consistently, particularly when going for a needed headshot or black powder. Hopefully the right people see it and this 3 year old bug gets the attention it needs.
An idea for how to make sword more fluid:
#1.1-1.3) Reduce the pre/post casts to make the entire chain 2.0 seconds long. Reduce the coefficients to 0.65, 0.65, and 1.05 (this is actually a 2% increase to AA DPS). Leave the weakness and cripple duration at 2 seconds
I can’t say I’d be against a small damage shave to make it that fast. However, if the devs are against cutting it down to ~2 seconds, I think just speeding it up 10% to put it at ~2.25 and calling it a day would be fair as well. You can even test what this would feel like if you have the speed mushrooms from Itzel lore. I have, and it’s just noticeable enough. Not too fast, not too slow.
I think this was always there. I’m not saying it doesn’t need fixing but I do remember a lot of the times when I rolled sword in pvp, letting the swig continue to finish and then immediately doing another skill had a slight delay. However I cannot say I noticed between the auto attack itself, I do press the auto attack key since I find it far too unreliable to rely on my character to start attacking by themselves but maybe you do the same thing?
I’m pretty sure it was too, I just hadn’t gotten it down to a science yet. I do what you do for the same reason, and you can trigger it reliably on the autos by pressing 1 once right after the 1st swing animation finishes. If done correctly, you’ll have a big delay between 1.2 and 1.3.
Haven’t noticed any significant delays in the autochain itself, but have seen this behavior with transitioning to other skills after a #1, but only if you let the full swing animation end out before using another skill, as you said.
I’ve figured out what it is, and I know how to trigger it consistently. I press 1 to force autos from time to time when I know I’m in range to hit, but not enough to trigger the autocast. You can reproduce the delay on the 3rd part of the chain by pressing 1 as soon as the animation for the 1st part finishes swinging as you said.
After getting a feel for staff and how fluid it was when transitioning between autos and other skills, I couldn’t help but notice something a bit off when I was using S/X.
So, I decided to do a bit of testing on the timing/transitions of Sword vs. other melee options and I discovered two aspects that I’d love the devs to take a look at. The first is almost certainly unintended behavior (or at least it suspiciously feels that way), and the second is more of a comparison between supposed cast times of the 3 melee sets vs. reality.
Additional 1/2 Second Delay when transitioning from Sword autos to any other skill with a cast time
At any point during the Sword #1 chain (slice, slash, crippling strike), you can experience an additional ~0.5 second delay between the #1 and the next action including the next step in the auto chain. In combat, this happens most frequently when transitioning between #1 -> any other skill w/ cast time, but not every single time.
The most reliable way to reproduce the effect I’m talking about doesn’t even require a target. If you just stand still, perform Slice (1st part of #1), and then press your next skill as soon as the animation finishes, you’ll get this awkward pause and then your next attack, effectively adding a 1/2 second precast to any non-instant skill. I’ve tried to reproduce this effect on the other sets, but I’ve not managed to do so, implying there is an issue specific to Sword.
Cast Time vs. Reality Comparison between Dagger/Staff/Sword
**Cast Times are per the GW2 Wiki
Dagger
Double Strike – ?? (Presumed 1/4s)
Wild Strike – ?? (Presumed 1/4s)
Lotus Strike – 1/4s
Total Estimate – 3/4s (lol)
Actual Sequence Time – 2.07s
Staff
Staff Strike – 1/2s
Staff Bash – 1/2s
Punishing Strikes – 1s
Total Estimate – 2s
Actual Sequence Time – 2.04s
Sword
Slice – ??(Presumed 1/2s)
Slash – 1/2s
Crippling Strike – 1/2s
Total Estimate – 1.5s
Actual Sequence Time – 2.52s
Conclusions
There’s clearly an amount of uplift to be expected between cast time and real time, with staff being (mostly) the exception to this.
In terms of expectations, fastest -> slowest order is Dagger>Sword>Staff
In actuality, the order is Staff~Dagger>>Sword.
It’s important to note that this is the disparity assuming you don’t experience the Sword-specific delay during the auto chain, which would put you at 3.02 total sequence time, which is outrageous.
Ideally, I’d love to see Sword brought more up to speed with the other two – just a hair behind dagger in speed. The first issue being fixed is a must though, as it just reeks of unintentional behavior.
I’d love to hear a dev’s take on this – even if it’s something as simple as “We’re going to be taking a look at this behavior” or “This is the intended behavior we were going for”
TL;DR Sword has a unique delay between its autos and any skill w/ cast time (including other autos), and it would also be great if Sword autos were sped up for more fluid gameplay.
Pistol Whip – Remove the root from this attack. With all the changes to the game since launch as well as the coming of things like Unrelenting Assault, this is a more than reasonable request.
Just look at Guardian Shield. I hadn’t seen anyone really using that since around launch until last night because removing the root on #5 makes a world of difference.
i disagree. pistol whip is already a pretty kitten strong skill, even with the root. it shares its rooting property with a bunch of other, equally good skills (and one meh guardian skill). plus, it comes built-in with mechanics to ensure you land the hit (stun that can be precast, immob on sword 2, etc).
side note, a moment of appreciation for a thief balance thread that is actually as reasonable as the title implies, unlike some threads we see around the forum.
I respectfully disagree. I’m also not against removing the root from similar skills on the same principle, the first of which comes to mind is mesmer’s Blurred Frenzy. As for the Guardian skill (assuming Sword #3?), it doesn’t really stand to gain much from removal of the root on account of it being a ranged attack, so I’d be content either way.
Does pistol whip hit hard? Sure, I don’t think there’s any need to adjust the damage. However, it only hits hard assuming all hits connect:
- Even with the 1/2 second stun, it’s surprisingly easy to simply walk out of range to avoid a considerable amount of the damage, which suddenly becomes not so high anymore. That’s just assuming we precasted pistol whip.
- Instead, let’s assume we chose to set up using the immob on Infiltrator’s Strike. That’s a 1 second immobilize. Assuming we go immediately into the pistol whip, we need to subtract 3/4 seconds to account for the windup. With 1/4 seconds left on the immobilize, we connect with the stun portion of pistol whip. The immobilize will wear off before the stun does, meaning using Infiltrator’s Strike as a means of securing most of the actual damage is ineffective.
Lastly, we can take a look at a similar skill, Unrelenting Assault. Compared to Pistol Whip and Blurred Frenzy. All 3 of these are very similar in what they aim to achieve: high damage that depends on multiple strikes connecting whilst evading.
- Pistol Whip and Blurred Frenzy both require that you initiate the attack in melee range, with the only difference being that Thief is vulnerable for just a hair longer due to the windup, but this is fair between the two because you get a stun (albeit short) out of it.
- Unrelenting Assault, on the other hand, may be activated outside of melee range, evades for a considerably longer period of time than the other two skills, and requires no further or prior action to stay on the target. This is without accounting for the might it grants, or the likelihood that a number of UA’s strikes will be unblockable as well.
My point is, there’s a skill that accomplishes the same thing as at least two other skills where the only reliable methods of damage mitigation are dodging and invuln while said skills are avoidable by all forms of mitigation (dodge, invuln, block, blind, waddling out of the way). I’m only asking that skills receive similar rewards for similar risk.
Body Shot – Remove the vulnerability stacks, they’re laughable anyways. Add a short distance (shorter than SB #3) backwards evade that also counts as a leap finisher. Congratulations, P/P made infinitely more viable along with something new to P/D as well. If you feel that the one second of immob is too much with this change, remove it too. Honestly though, it would only give you time to get most of a sneak attack off as long as you used it immediately after stealthing via black powder + body shot leap
EDIT: Wishful thinking, but an awesome new animation for this evasive body shot would be the mid-air spin shot from the Deadpool trailer. Just super saiyan.
Could there please be some John Woo-style doves that come flying out every time you do this evade?
Better yet, just use whatever mail carrier you have chosen as the effect! :P
Pistol Whip – Remove the root from this attack. With all the changes to the game since launch as well as the coming of things like Unrelenting Assault, this is a more than reasonable request.
Just look at Guardian Shield. I hadn’t seen anyone really using that since around launch until last night because removing the root on #5 makes a world of difference.
Body Shot – Remove the vulnerability stacks, they’re laughable anyways. Add a short distance (shorter than SB #3) backwards evade that also counts as a leap finisher. Congratulations, P/P made infinitely more viable along with something new to P/D as well. If you feel that the one second of immob is too much with this change, remove it too. Honestly though, it would only give you time to get most of a sneak attack off as long as you used it immediately after stealthing via black powder + body shot leap
EDIT: Wishful thinking, but an awesome new animation for this evasive body shot would be the mid-air spin shot from the Deadpool trailer. Just super saiyan.
For any devs reading: this is basically a summary of what’s been posted multiple times for the past few months, and in some cases years. If you need a good place to get your bearings on Thief feedback from Thief players, this is the place to do it.
Yeah it’s…kinda outta nowhere. Like, if I walked up to someone on the street to quickly draw me a symbol for the word “Daredevil” and they had no idea about the Marvel hero.
Just…I dunno…make it a fist? Something? I mean sure, making it a fist is about as creative as the Green Lantern is with his powers, but hey at least it kinda lines up with the whole “martial arts” theme.
Minors:
Saint – Blinding an opponent grants you Protection
Sinner – Striking an opponent while flanking blinds them (some ICD)
Sonar – Your attacks strike through blindness
Majors:
Follow-Up – Critical hits send out a Dancing Dagger to your opponents (some ICD)
Follow-Through – Critical hits while flanking knock down your opponent (some ICD)
Razor Reflexes – Evading an attack causes your next attack to double-strike (some ICD)
Second Wind – When your health goes below 50%, gain Quickness, Protection, and a small healing burst
Dancing Devil – Flanking strikes grant you a stack of Flow. At 5 stacks of Flow, gain a burst of Quickness
Unyielding – Physical skills are now stun breakers and have cooldowns reduced 20%
Somersault Sweep – Evading an attack triggers an area knockdown effect (some ICD)
Elite:
Devil Ring – Teleport your target to yourself, and create a Devil Ring. The Devil ring teleports all targets out of the ring except for the marked target, who will be teleported back inside if they attempt to leave. Enemy projectiles may not pass through the ring.
BONUS TRAITS:
Haunted – Every 10 seconds out of combat, reflect upon the unjust death of your father.
Cirque du Slowleil – Evading an attack slows your attacker.
(edited by Ravoku.1852)
nope,flanking strike and lac strike are good as they are now,no changes need there.There are more pressing matters thant that anyway.
…Because? I’m not arguing that there are more important things to address, such as current survivability/damage in regards to what some of the other professions are dealing out with similar/less sacrifice. However, this alone is not reason enough to invalidate something that could use some improvement when the time comes.
..it gives you more control,look at the ranger sword auto attack,it is so kittenty cause you cant have real control over it.
The thing is that the situations where any amount of control is useful are few and far between. There’s also a world of difference between this and the ranger sword autos. The sword autos are not, strictly speaking, a split skill in the sense FS is. It’s a chain attack. I’m aware one of the main reasons the ranger sword autos have no control is because it kinda roots you in place, just like FS used to. I also explicitly suggested that a re-merged FS not have that old rooted effect, and should just perform the strikes during the evade. Therefore, the issues of ranger sword autos do not apply in this circumstance.
having this long attack it will root you and the comparison is spot on cause imagine making ranger auto attack a non root attack,ppl would undoubtly play sword more.Same goes with thief FS it will force you to do an animation which roots you cause it is a long-complex animation….GW2 is fun and uinque cause you have 100% control over your character unlike other mmos that some skills just root you in place.
Except that I’ve said on multiple occasions that a re-merged FS should not include a rooted animation, but instead have the dagger strike take place sooner with the sword strike right at the end of the evade frame
I prefer the split. It can allow for multiple evades with no nearby target (to avoid ranged effects, etc.) at a lower initiative cost than if it were bumped up back to its full cost. As someone mentioned above, I also like being able to save its second skill to use on a separate target; I find myself frequently using FS on classes without blocks or aegis to get LS and then using it to finish a guard, war, or engineer with unblockable burst damage that steals a boon, too.
Yeah, you would need to be more timely with your evades so as not to drain your initiative as quickly, but I’m also not a huge fan of evade spamming, which would be discouraged if anyone concerned about any skillful application of FS.
I personally find saving it to be useful in very rare situations like that, and it’s not enough for me to want it to remain split. That being said, I understand what you like about it and respect your take on it.
I’m referring to more or less a case where such spamming is absolutely necessary, like in out-numbered situations against, say, a ranger and mesmer at long range and a hammer warrior in your face; not dodging RF/shatters and the CC of the warrior is going to get you killed, and the lower cost of evades is pretty much necessary when being hit by a bombardment of must-dodge attacks. Having no immunities, blocks, etc. puts the thief in a position where it needs such a prolonged defensive option through this kind of evade spamming in an outnumbered situation.
Arguing for the contrary really just puts the thief into a deeper role of only being able to +1 fights than it already is, which is being heavily out-classed by a variety of roles and classes at the moment.
In that particular situation, not dodging those will get you killed, sure. However, if you actually plan on killing anyone in that situation and not just running away, you’re going to be cycling that flanking strike and using the full initiative cost anyways. Spamming it already drains you as it is since the Larcenous Strike is only 1 initiative. What can hurt is skill delay resulting from larcenous being a different skill.
One of the larger reasons thief is more +1 fights at the moment has to do more with some of the damage certain classes have just started to put out since specializations, especially compared to what sword thief puts out.
nope,flanking strike and lac strike are good as they are now,no changes need there.There are more pressing matters thant that anyway.
…Because? I’m not arguing that there are more important things to address, such as current survivability/damage in regards to what some of the other professions are dealing out with similar/less sacrifice. However, this alone is not reason enough to invalidate something that could use some improvement when the time comes.
..it gives you more control,look at the ranger sword auto attack,it is so kittenty cause you cant have real control over it.
The thing is that the situations where any amount of control is useful are few and far between. There’s also a world of difference between this and the ranger sword autos. The sword autos are not, strictly speaking, a split skill in the sense FS is. It’s a chain attack. I’m aware one of the main reasons the ranger sword autos have no control is because it kinda roots you in place, just like FS used to. I also explicitly suggested that a re-merged FS not have that old rooted effect, and should just perform the strikes during the evade. Therefore, the issues of ranger sword autos do not apply in this circumstance.
I prefer the split. It can allow for multiple evades with no nearby target (to avoid ranged effects, etc.) at a lower initiative cost than if it were bumped up back to its full cost. As someone mentioned above, I also like being able to save its second skill to use on a separate target; I find myself frequently using FS on classes without blocks or aegis to get LS and then using it to finish a guard, war, or engineer with unblockable burst damage that steals a boon, too.
Yeah, you would need to be more timely with your evades so as not to drain your initiative as quickly, but I’m also not a huge fan of evade spamming, which would be discouraged if anyone concerned about any skillful application of FS.
I personally find saving it to be useful in very rare situations like that, and it’s not enough for me to want it to remain split. That being said, I understand what you like about it and respect your take on it.
nope,flanking strike and lac strike are good as they are now,no changes need there.There are more pressing matters thant that anyway.
…Because? I’m not arguing that there are more important things to address, such as current survivability/damage in regards to what some of the other professions are dealing out with similar/less sacrifice. However, this alone is not reason enough to invalidate something that could use some improvement when the time comes.
I’m really confused as to why you think this would be a positive change for Flanking Strike…
Even if, for some reason, it was made back into a single skill with no split, the total cast time would have to remain unchanged to maintain the current balance state, so it’s not like the ability would go off quicker to help you get the damage you’re looking for.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, if it WERE to be made into a single skill, you wouldn’t be able to FS, then blink somewhere or move to change targets before LS (which is a great option for PvP Thieves, as you most likely want to rip a boon from a Guardian over another Thief).All in all, I – as well as what I assume is a large part of the Thief audience – would probably not like them to condense FS and LS back into one again… Very little upside (if any) while removing an element of skill and mastery.
Conversely, I’m not sure why it wouldn’t be a positive change as long as it wasn’t literally reverted to the previous form, which was clunky for reasons I’ve explained.
I don’t have any issue with the current cast time, either. Think of it this way: right now, you have the evade taking place with the dagger strike at the end. Having both strikes take place without changing the cast time only means that the dagger strike would have to take place more towards the beginning, and the sword strike would happen where the dagger strike currently takes place.
As for the combo, I’m not entirely sure what value is lost over using a skill, teleporting, and using something that could have happened by simply timing a teleport with the first skill. I’m not suggesting losing the boon steal, and I would argue teleporting into a LS is no more complex than teleporting into a CnD or #1 skill attack. You’d even have the evade on when you went for the boon steal, so it’d just be a safer entry than the current form of the skill.
I see very little, if any, downside to merging the skill to feel more fluid to use. I’m not entirely sure what elements of skill and mastery are lost by merging a skill that is barely more complex than an auto-attack chain, and certainly nowhere near on par with the complexity of all the other split skills. Every other split skill’s second half serves a distinctly different purpose than the first, and in many cases may encourage you not to use it at all – which is what makes these skills more complex to use. FS/LS lacks this defining trait because there is no scenario in which you don’t want to hit your opponent with the LS.
Per the title, for what reason should this skill remain a split skill? I’ve played Sword/Dagger from 1-80 since the game first came out, and I remember a time when this skill was simply Flanking Strike and included both hits. Granted, it was awful because of how clunky it felt, how bad the pathing was, and how you were pseudo-rooted for the sword strike. Separating the skill, however, was unnecessary, and still leaves much to be desired because this skill makes no sense as a split skill.
So I’m going to go through EVERY SINGLE EXISTING SPLIT WEAPON SKILL IN THE GAME**
**I don’t have it in me to go over split skills on utilities, and underwater weapons are an affront to society
SKIP DOWN TO THE FLANKING STRIKE SECTION NOW, OR THE TL;DR IF YOU’RE LIKE ME AND DON’T WANT A QUICK OVERVIEW OF ALL THOSE SKILLS
(Format will be [Skill Name] – [What 2nd Part Does]: [Yes/No regarding intelligent design of splitting the skill and maybe some comments])
Guardian
Binding Blade – Pulls enemies in: Yes, you can let the damage tick, or go for a tactical pull
Orb of Light – Detonate for Aoe Heal: Yes, go for Aoe Heal or lower cooldown if not used
Shield of Absorption – Detonate For AoE Heal: Yes, you can wait it out for projectile blocking, or go for that heal sooner
Zealot’s Flame – Ranged Attack with multiple burning stacks at once: Yes
Engineer
Magnetic Shield – Push: Yes, reflect for ranged, push when melee gets up close
Static Shield – Ranged Attack with Daze: Yes, for when you’re not gonna get that melee stun you can at least daze a ranged opponent
Elementalist
Rock Barrier – Ranged Attack: Yes, sure there are more useful ones but the 2nd attack certainly serves a different purpose from the 1st
Magnetic Grasp – Leap Attack: Yes, you can use it to close the gap and capitalize on the immobilize from 1st or choose to not to and remain at range depending on weapon set
Ranger
Counter Attack – Ranged Attack with Cripple: Yes
Hornet Sting – Leap Attack: Yes
Mesmer
Illusionary Counter – Block+Clone vs. Blind Attack: Yes, and another that falls under the “if nothing else, do this” category
Illusionary Leap – Teleport + Immobilize: Yes
Illusionary Riposte – Block+Clone vs. Daze Attack: Yes
Temporal Curtain – Pull: Yes, take advantage of the swiftness/cripple/combo field and use the pull when an opportunity presents itself
Warrior
Counterblow – Adrenaline gain if not used: Yes, another “if nothing else, do this” but I can’t deny that the 2nd part of this skill serves a purpose distinct from the first and makes sense to be separately usable
Impale – Rip for burst damage: Yes, you choose to wait out more torment stacks, or go for the burst sooner
Riposte – Adrenaline Gain if not used: Yes
Thief
Cluster Bomb – Detonate for wider Aoe+more bleeds: Yes, there is a distinct difference in using the 2nd or allowing the 1st to play out
Infiltrator’s Strike – Teleport+Remove Condition: Yes, you use for mobility/condi clear, or let it expire if you’re needing to chase and teleporting back is counter-intuitive
HERE IS THE FLANKING STRIKE/LARCENOUS STRIKE SECTION
Here we are. 1st part: evade and stab. 2nd part: Stab…again…oh, but you rip a boon. The problem with this is that there’s no scenario in which you’d want to be more decisive about using the second skill, unlike every other split skill in existence. Both parts of this skill are head-on melee range attacks. Sure, the second strike does differ in that it rips a boon, but you’ll nearly always want to use this is soon as it’s available for the damage – the boon ripping is a bonus. Plenty of other skills have secondary effects without the need of splitting their skills (Pistol Whip is a good example).
Every other split skill I listed differs in that the 2nd skill is designed for a specific situation or timing that is otherwise impossible on a singular skill. In many cases, you may never want to use the 2nd skill so that you get the most benefit from the 1st. There is virtually no case in which you don’t want that Larcenous Strike to happen as soon as it can. The damage and getting your evade back is simply too valuable.
Currently, the only thing this skill is getting by being split is a somewhat variable skill delay when choosing to go for the Larcenous Strike. Sometimes, it happens immediately. Other times, there’s an awkward second or two where your Thief is presumably deciding what he/she wants for lunch.
This skill has no place being split, but it should also be fluid to use – unlike its stuttering behavior from before the split. Therefore, I suggest this skill be merged back into one skill, Flanking Strike, but be changed into a more fluid attack that feels more like Leaping Death Blossom to use (both strikes happen during the evade).
TL;DR Flanking Strike is the only split skill that does not reflect the apparent design philosophy surrounding split skills
Reaper. Oh, I get it: they have the new focus on melee and scythe abilities.
Of course the name had to have something to do with the whole “death” and “grim reaper” theme. I was expecting a much more high concept name than taking the easy way out like Chronomancer did. Oh, you’re a Chronomancer? Let me guess, it gives you new time-based abilities. Way too simplistic.
That’s why I suggest the Reaper specialization be renamed to the Shoutyeller. I feel that the name “Shoutyeller” is much more high concept in regards to the theme of the new specialization. I went with this name because I felt it was evocative of the 1957 Disney Classic, Old Yeller.
Necromancers embody the very essence of death. Just as death is inevitable for the Necromancer’s enemies, so too was it for the rabies infected Old Yeller. The origin of the Shoutyeller is a more subtle nuanced version of this. Necromancers aim to deliver a chilling death to their enemies, and the Shoutyeller faction believes yelling at them is the way to accomplish this. I understand this is a bit more high concept than the name Reaper, but I feel like Shoutyeller conveys a much more mature theme, like the Dragonhunter.
(edited by Ravoku.1852)
Infiltrator’s Return
The thing I have heard the second most discussion regarding. This is a big change to this skill, but we beleive it is a necessary one. In many cases this is not going to matter. There are only 2 situations where this is a truly impactful change.
1) It stops you from using this skill while stunned, which puts more burden on Sword/Dagger thieves saving their stun breakers. This is the kind of gameplay we want to encourage because it puts more risk in using a rewarding skill like Infiltrator’s Strike.
2) Mostly in PvP, this skill can no longer be used by S/D thieves to teleport stomp someone. This is actually the more impactful moment as it occurs more often, but I think it puts the burden on these players to run a second weapon set that can help them in these situations (OH pistol for instance.)No, no, no, and no. The reason I absolutely am 100% against this change is the entire thief class is built around the idea that abilities are instant with no cast time with no cooldown (on weapon skills), because they are the only class with a resource pool for their abilities. Make it cost more initiative or give a debuff that slows down initiative gain. Reduce the damage, change the range, etc etc… I don’t care about that. What bothers me is the adding a cast time to a class who’s core mechanic is all about no cooldowns and being able to quickly maneuver around.
I’m not sure what you mean by instant, but this is currently the only instant weapon ability. We are not adding a HUGE cast time to this skill. This skill is going to have a 360 millisecond cast time. ~1/3 of a second.
Jon
With no access to stability (other than a 90 second elite) the ability to avoid the following hit if you had a good enough reaction time seemed like part of the design of the sword. It currently doesn’t break stuns anymore, just moves you (possibly) out of range. Would you be adversed to the idea of making the return in the 600-450 range instead of putting a cast time on it so that the immediate next (melee) hit can avoided while it does not completely remove pressure from you?
You can still avoid follow ups with this. 360 milliseconds is faster than almost any attack and certainly faster than almost all dangerous ones. The only loss here is using this while stunned and using it to teleport finish an opponent.
yep! so in sum you are basically removing the only usefulness of this ability and making it a gap closer, no one will hit that button again until it switches back to Infiltrator’s Strike.
Why not remove the shadow return all together? it would be just another Shadow Shot with a insignificant imob instead of the blind… It would be alot more usefull then the new (worse) shadow return.
It is currently for 3 initiative:
- gap closer
- 1s immob
for 2 more initiative:
- escape when not stunned
- remove 1 condition
With the new base regen that means you can gap close and immobilize and remove a condition every 5 seconds. Even if you spread that initiative over 4 skill slots that skill can be used every 20 seconds.
Jon
In a meta that encourages tank condi specs that allow players to let the conditions do the work for them without having to sacrifice going into toughness/vitality, removing a single condition where people are applying 3+ at a time while soaking up your damage is negligible, especially compared to being able to minimize damage from being stunned on a class with the lowest health pool and defensive boon access.
EDIT: Oh, and let us not forget mesmer staff #2
(edited by Ravoku.1852)
You can still avoid follow ups with this. 360 milliseconds is faster than almost any attack and certainly faster than almost all dangerous ones.
Oh that sounds good.
The only loss here is using this while stunned and using it to teleport finish an opponent.
“while stunned”…what did you think was happening before the “follow up” we don’t want to eat and you claim we can still avoid?
Don’t even start with the teleport finish witch hunt. Any way about it, you’re burning a utility or steal to achieve this, and it isn’t even as effective as stability, Elixir S, or Distortion stomps.
You must have misunderstood me. Thief should definitely be able to stomp with this technique and it’s not fair that it’s being removed.
Ah, I was wondering if this was the case. Your first paragraph just kinda sounded like you were trying to downplay what the thief has to use in order to pull off a secure stomp. Oh well, I think my “counter argument” made some good points with regards to securing stomps as it stands up to the methods used by other professions
Do any of you guys even play s/d? A good sword thief will almost always have the return on sword #2 available. If you down someone you’ll have that return available 80%+ of the time. Start the stomp, return, wait till the last second to avoid that daze/knockback and use your 24 second cooldown inf signet to secure it. This is extremely common and you can even do it through walls. So really it only costs 2 initiative and infiltrator signet (but since you’re traiting into signets giving +2 init it’s really only at the cost of a 24 sec cooldown).
If anyone cares to know my opinion, I’m betting the devs didn’t even realize they’d be eliminating this mechanic. They wanted to stop the return from working while stunned and they didn’t see this as an impact until people on these forums alerted them to it.
A full use of infiltrator’s return will end up costing 5 initiative. It doesn’t matter how long you’ve waited, you still HAD to use another 3 initiative at some point 15 seconds prior to using the return. If you’re using it for a stomp, I imagine you’d have burned the 3 initiative a lot sooner than 15 seconds ago. I also don’t think it’s entirely fair to use a very specific major trait to defend burning a utility to get off a single stomp. I know I don’t use that trait.
If you have to burn a utility to secure a stomp, you’ve earned it
Best part is, ours isn’t even fool-proof (you can still CC use provided an ally hasn’t given stability). Mesmers have distortion stomping, during which they evade everything. Other classes, such as ele or guardian, can be seen using stability to secure a stomp. Thieves don’t have as much access to stability as others, and therefore need to be trickier about how they secure stomps. I don’t understand why the thief is suddenly the bad guy for trying to secure a stomp when others have their own methods.
Tell me about nerfs to my mesmer which unplayble since Necros up.
Well, I recommend checking out shatter mesmer, phantasm mesmer, or (if you’re feeling particularly cheesy) tank condi mesmer builds to help out.
I hope like hell someone pays attention to this response of yours – as the methodology applied to it is something I’ve seen as a problem for all the classes across the board.
This is exactly why I had to make this post. I’m glad there are players who can see this for what it is, and may we both make it through the next patch.
You missed these:
#1: Teleport to target with sword.
#2: Start channeling the stomp.
#3: Teleport back with return skill.
#4: Wait for channel to reach the end.
#5: Shadowstep to target with shadowstep/steal/infiltrator
Sword+Steal being a cheap and viable solution.I agree, however, that it does not warrant this kind of silly nerf..
Yeah, I wanted to go on, but I was approaching the character limit and just said “avoiding redundancy” to cover at least using shadowstep as well. In this case, you’re blowing a utility or your steal to finish a stomp, so it’s not the most easily abused thing.
Infiltrator’s Return
2) Mostly in PvP, this skill can no longer be used by S/D thieves to teleport stomp someone. This is actually the more impactful moment as it occurs more often, but I think it puts the burden on these players to run a second weapon set that can help them in these situations (OH pistol for instance.)
Jon
Infiltrator’s Return
First, point 2 is simply not true. I’m becoming more and more convinced that no one actually plays Thief on the balance team. It’s just that class where everyone on the team is like, “Well I’ve been playing my mesmer, been a few months since I’ve logged on my old thief…” plays their Thief for 10 minutes “Well that was nice, back to mesmer.”
Sir, the skill you are thinking of is the utility “Shadowstep”. It has a 50 second base cooldown with a stunbreak on the step and return, with the return removing 3 conditions (because they can’t just lay that right back on and twiddle their thumbs for a few more seconds, right?)
Here are the steps for the stomp you mentioned:
1. Start stomp
2. Shadowstep away (again, the utility skill)
3. Wait for stomp channel to almost finish
4. Shadow Return back just before channel finishes (did I say utility)
Now, its not impossible to do this using infiltrator’s strike, but you would need to:
1. Infiltrate into the downed player
2. Hope player is also a thief, and teleports where you came from
3. Do steps 3 and 4 from the Shadowstep method
OR (WHOA TWO METHODS)
1. Infiltrate on top of the downed player, so your return is at their location
2. Avoiding redundancy, use Infiltrator’s Signet on a faraway target
3. Do steps 3 and 4 from the Shadowstep method
Beyond this, being unable to return after incoming CC (which actually requires to have been set up beforehand, contrary to popular belief) will assure the thief’s death, especially if you have more than one stun. Why, we may die faster than Warrior before “You can make all the mistakes you want against power builds, honey” Signet.
Here’s the thing:
Thieves and Guardians both have very low health pools. Guardian has a plethora of defensive and healing abilities to both mitigate and recover from hits to counter this. Thief is supposed to be the opposite, using a plethora of mobility skills to counter this. Without being able to use mobility to avoid the damage, the thief will die much faster than any other class relying on a hard cooldown stun break because of this health pool
Push for Hard to Catch
Instead of saying this trait is garbage, like many have accurately stated already, I’m going to break it down for you using the G.A.R.B.A.G.E. system.
G.reat for getting yourself killed: it triggers with stability on, is not controlled by the player, AND does not actually remove that which it sets out to protect you from.
A.lready put all the reasonably useful points into that tree. Feline Grace is at 15, this would require 20
R.eally long cooldown compared to what it actually does, which previously could be managed by the player through smart use of initiative management and upkeep of setup requirement
B.oon isn’t that great because it’s only useful for travel out of combat in the context of having teleports and some leaps to close gaps, and stealth to escape
A.ssassin’s reward, which isn’t that great already, would easily beat out this skill in this tier even before the negligible buff. (yeah, lemme just grab some healing gear for my thief)
G.ood boon alternatives to support the thief mobility design, such as vigor, would be given a lower amount anyways in light of the recent vigor nerfs across the boar-OH WAIT, forgot about mesmer vigor.
E.veryone who actually plays the thief has always said how useless this trait has always been, yet here you are, acting like this is some amazing reworked trait when in fact nothing has changed about it functionally.
I end this section with two questions:
1. Did the guy who designed “Tow Line” (Thief spear #4) design this trait?
2. How many more weeks until “Tow Line” is finally renamed to “CC Yourself”?
Conclusion/Seriousness
Jon, after all I have said, I do need to add that most of what you said was very true and well thought out. Specifically, the change to Infusion of Shadow is easily one of the most fair and balanced changes to the thief. However, I can’t just stay silent when some of the points have revealed nothing but blatant neglect regarding balancing the thief to compete in a meta they already have virtually nothing they really do better than other classes. (Distortion stomp?)
TL;DR
Nothing new for people who actually play Thief.
(edited by Ravoku.1852)
Infiltrator’s Return
2) Mostly in PvP, this skill can no longer be used by S/D thieves to teleport stomp someone. This is actually the more impactful moment as it occurs more often, but I think it puts the burden on these players to run a second weapon set that can help them in these situations (OH pistol for instance.)
Jon
Infiltrator’s Return
First, point 2 is simply not true. I’m becoming more and more convinced that no one actually plays Thief on the balance team. It’s just that class where everyone on the team is like, “Well I’ve been playing my mesmer, been a few months since I’ve logged on my old thief…” plays their Thief for 10 minutes “Well that was nice, back to mesmer.”
Sir, the skill you are thinking of is the utility “Shadowstep”. It has a 50 second base cooldown with a stunbreak on the step and return, with the return removing 3 conditions (because they can’t just lay that right back on and twiddle their thumbs for a few more seconds, right?)
Here are the steps for the stomp you mentioned:
1. Start stomp
2. Shadowstep away (again, the utility skill)
3. Wait for stomp channel to almost finish
4. Shadow Return back just before channel finishes (did I say utility)
Now, its not impossible to do this using infiltrator’s strike, but you would need to:
1. Infiltrate into the downed player
2. Hope player is also a thief, and teleports where you came from
3. Do steps 3 and 4 from the Shadowstep method
OR (WHOA TWO METHODS)
1. Infiltrate on top of the downed player, so your return is at their location
2. Avoiding redundancy, use Infiltrator’s Signet on a faraway target
3. Do steps 3 and 4 from the Shadowstep method
Beyond this, being unable to return after incoming CC (which actually requires to have been set up beforehand, contrary to popular belief) will assure the thief’s death, especially if you have more than one stun. Why, we may die faster than Warrior before “You can make all the mistakes you want against power builds, honey” Signet.
Here’s the thing:
Thieves and Guardians both have very low health pools. Guardian has a plethora of defensive and healing abilities to both mitigate and recover from hits to counter this. Thief is supposed to be the opposite, using a plethora of mobility skills to counter this. Without being able to use mobility to avoid the damage, the thief will die much faster than any other class relying on a hard cooldown stun break because of this health pool
Push for Hard to Catch
Instead of saying this trait is garbage, like many have accurately stated already, I’m going to break it down for you using the G.A.R.B.A.G.E. system.
G.reat for getting yourself killed: it triggers with stability on, is not controlled by the player, AND does not actually remove that which it sets out to protect you from.
A.lready put all the reasonably useful points into that tree. Feline Grace is at 15, this would require 20
R.eally long cooldown compared to what it actually does, which previously could be managed by the player through smart use of initiative management and upkeep of setup requirement
B.oon isn’t that great because it’s only useful for travel out of combat in the context of having teleports and some leaps to close gaps, and stealth to escape
A.ssassin’s reward, which isn’t that great already, would easily beat out this skill in this tier even before the negligible buff. (yeah, lemme just grab some healing gear for my thief)
G.ood boon alternatives to support the thief mobility design, such as vigor, would be given a lower amount anyways in light of the recent vigor nerfs across the boar-OH WAIT, forgot about mesmer vigor.
E.veryone who actually plays the thief has always said how useless this trait has always been, yet here you are, acting like this is some amazing reworked trait when in fact nothing has changed about it functionally.
I end this section with two questions:
1. Did the guy who designed “Tow Line” (Thief spear #4) design this trait?
2. How many more weeks until “Tow Line” is finally renamed to “CC Yourself”?
Conclusion/Seriousness
Jon, after all I have said, I do need to add that most of what you said was very true and well thought out. Specifically, the change to Infusion of Shadow is easily one of the most fair and balanced changes to the thief. However, I can’t just stay silent when some of the points have revealed nothing but blatant neglect regarding balancing the thief to compete in a meta they already have virtually nothing they really do better than other classes. (Distortion stomp?)
TL;DR
Nothing new for people who actually play Thief.
(edited by Ravoku.1852)
As it is, the current model for the zenith sword (1 handed sword) is hardly larger than your average dagger. I don’t know why the greatsword was made much larger than it needed to be while the sword got the short end of the stick (literally and figuratively).
A blade like a gladius makes sense that it would be shorter than average, but given that these weapons are supposed to be really cool rewards I would expect that ArenaNet would want them designed in such a way that they stand out. Of all the swords to make shorter, this isn’t the one. Since the physical blade is made of crystal segments that are naturally more difficult to see, the current length of the blade causes it to look almost ambiguous as to whether it’s a sword or a dagger if it weren’t for daggers having a reverse grip.
The greatsword was fantastic, so why can’t 1 handed swords get that same level of treatment?
Assuming of course these turn out to be the notes
Just a few corrections:
Thief changes:
Death Blossom: This skill still looks cool, right?
Body Shot: More stacks will fix this skill!
Cluster Bomb: Don’t you guys already have a 1200 range weapon?
Nine tail strike/Shadow Assault: We finally realized how broken these could be. Will we discover the same about Black Powder? Find out NEXT WEEK ON DRAGON BALL!
Dancing Dagger: You can now take advantage of the reduced damage 25% more often!
Crippling Strike: We removed every condition from this skill except the one that sword users didn’t need.
Acrobatics
Assassin’s Retreat: This trait is still not worth taking, no matter how much we increase the duration.
Pain Response: This cooldown of this effect has been reduced from 45 seconds to 30. The number of players who avoid taking this over more reliable condition removal, however, has not been reduced.
Hard to Catch: Don’t worry about what we did to this, it’s still so unreliable you won’t take it.
Shadow Arts
Last Refuge: This trait will now screw you over 33% more often.
Shadow Protector: Don’t worry, just a few more points until Shadow Rejuvenation
im on FA :-) you on tonight before reset?
If you wanna get on, we can duel now
im on FA :-) you on tonight before reset?
Yeah we’re on
what server are you thieves on?
Tarnished Coast
So, I am considered a relatively decent thief among my friends. If any of you claiming to be able to beat all thieves in a 1v1 fight please send me a tell so we can set something up. Necro’s are simply at a disadvantage when fighting a thief 1v1.
-Incarnadyne
I will also accept necro challenges.
-Ravoku Ravenstorm
STEP 1: Target an enemy at range > infiltrator’s strike + steal (1500)
STEP 2: Use infiltrator’s strike to move 600 range closer to target, and immediately follow up with steal before the strike takes place.
RESULT: Because the steal should be out of range if you’ve satisfied step 1, the steal will fizzle and go on a short cooldown, BUT infiltrator’s strike will not properly cycle (although leaving a mark) to shadow return. This way, it is possible to get multiple gap closing infiltrator’s strikes and also puts a thief at a disadvantage if they’re expecting their shadow return to be up.
FIX?: Honestly, it boils down to infiltrator’s strike currently not being cycled immediately after the actual teleport has taken place, regardless of what happens when the attack or being dazed immediately after. Force it to cycle if the teleport took place, and that should solve a lot of the cycling issues with this skill.
Instead of having a tiny buff, or no notification of how long, why not have the time remaining until a skill cycles back counting down over the skill? Instead of being the time until cooldown, it would simply let you know how long you have until you can’t use the cycled skill.
Basically, skills like infiltrator’s strike will cycle to another skill (in this case shadow return) and back after an amount of time, giving a constant countdown over shadow return’s icon. I use infiltrator’s as an example because it’s probably the most prominent skill that would benefit from my idea, but it would be useful to know when others are going to time out as well, like the ranger sword leap.
So, from what I understand, one of the major issues with flanking strike is that it can be clunky with that whole 180 degree whirl followed by slow attacks. I mean it’s flanking strike right? Doesn’t that imply that you’d prefer to be behind your target every time you do it?
So:
What if instead of doing the whirl around your target, you did a short range shadowstep behind the target, and followed with your attacks. If you are not in melee range (130 is it?) then the shadowstep does not occur, so it can’t be repeatedly abused as a gap closer when you’d already got steal + infiltrator’s
From what I’ve read, the crit chance does not change on your character sheet, but it’s being applied behind the scenes.
As many of you may know, proc sigils with a cooldown render another proc sigil useless after it has activated. Example: a sigil of rage (3 second haste proc 45 second cooldown), when triggered, will seemingly cause a sigil of blood (lifesteal 2 second cooldown) to not proc for the next 45 seconds.
What I want to know is whether this is a legitimate issue being looked at by ArenaNet or if this is how they are intended to function. If this is how they are intended, why isn’t there a description or something in game that specifies exactly how they work so as not to confuse players on which sigils would work best for them. As of now, you either do some internet digging or test them out yourself to discover this.
EDIT: some words :P
As it is, it’s attack THEN clumsily strike instead of fluidly being able to transition to the next attack without breaking your two strikes. I’ll use death blossom as a comparison. Death blossom:
-Attack while Evading
-AoE
-Three Strikes, each applying DoT condition
Flanking Strike
-Evade then attack separately
-Pseudo AoE (Sword range)
-Two Strikes, first removes boon, second just pure damage
I really don’t understand why you have to slowly attack after evading, especially when compared to skills that seem to have a similar function. I imagine a faster version would have your character slash with the dagger once followed by a fancy sword slash while spinning like he/she does already when evading with this attack.