What is this thing called “play the TP”? Seriously, what’s that even means?
It’s basically a way to exploit the game. If you have a lot of gold, you can buy a lot of a given item and sell it for a higher price, creating an artificial increase in price. The more gold you have, the more gold you can make through this process, at the cost of making the game a bit worse for everyone else (since you are artificially making it harder for people to get what they want).
If it’s a rare enough item, you can even buy all of it in the market and set a monopoly, selling at a considerable higher price than you bought. This doesn’t work with items that have a huge turnover like Globs of Ectoplasm, but for truly rare items – like precursors – it can be a gold mine.
This is very astute. All evidence we have shows that doubling the precursor drop rate would actually increase the price, not decrease it.
Do you have a mechanism for this?
You’ve referred to this phenomenon in the past, and in all the examples I can remember there were multiple moving parts that were ultimately responsible for the effect.
There are wealth effects on the macro side of this sort of change, but in a vacuum there’s no mechanism for it to drive prices up, only to blunt the extent of the fall.
It could be some sort of weird velocity effect, but that would get eaten up pretty fast by the TP fee.
Are you expecting a higher precursor drop rate to lift some liquidity constraints and for that to be responsible?
We’ve seen changes in the production function of an enormous number of goods so far, and in every example I can think of they have behaved conventionally…so why do you think it would be different in this case?
I have heard it described as living “on the margins.” (I forget where I read that.) There is always a subset of players on the edge of attempting a legendary or not. (Or doing, buying, selling anything for that matter.) A further subset may think the price of the precursor is too high. Any change in the price due to a change in supply would affect those margins, thus increasing the demand. I’m sure Jon is more privy to the math, and science behind this phenomenon, but the same general conclusions can be reached with simple logic.
Yep I got a character slot as well, from my stockpile of gems I got by putting about half my TP profits into gold->gems. (Thanks to whoever’s forum post I saw a month ago talking about this idea.)
It seems EVERYTHING in the BLTC is about exploiting the impatient, including the gem exchange.
You say “exploiting,” I say “providing a service for.” Services cost money.
I think I have the turret pull down, and the boulders. Gonna try the 2clones + s3. Could you elaborate on that last bit? And tw feedback during effigy?
I am beginning to suspect that there is are large-scale gold farming groups which are controlling the prices of raw materials. All components seem to add up to the finished item price (crafting is nearly useless), and its all too perfect to just be players knowing what each item is worth. Not enough fluctuation.
I encourage ArenaNet to look into it because the economy on this game is boring as hell, and I normally love to trade & craft stuff, but there’s no point here.
You are exactly right. There is a large scale gold farming group that IS controling the market. Every player that has ever or will ever use the TP for any reason is a member. Welcome to the free market. Its a beautiful thing.
I think I understand what you are saying now. I also think you are wrong. Not every transaction is a flip, but every flip takes the risk of the time component. We are talking about flipping so they are not the exception they are the rule.
Is there a difference between a flipper providing that service and average Joe who doesn’t need the item right now but is willing to wait? Or the opposite, wants to sell something but doesn’t need the gold right now? One flipper can facilitate those actions and make some gold for his trouble. I’m not sure if we are getting off topic here. Are you saying that time doesn’t factor into “The Spirit of Flipping?”
In our particular instance value is not calculated on the front end, thus it does not add value.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate? I propose that when I flip, I am adding value to the item I am buying and adding value AGAIN to the same item when I sell it. Value does not equal cost.
From my gathering you are taking time as the sole added value. Time saved to the initial seller adds no additional value…….ie they do not lose anything by marginal increase in time of selling. They do not have holding costs and the potential of earning based on time function of funds received is too subjective that it cannot be used to correlate a value. The “value” created in that regards is not objective and thus is not applicable to the overall general value.
Ofc this is in regards to generality for the sole purpose of debate on rule.
I’m sorry when I said elaborate, I think I meant could you dumb it down. I have no idea what you are talking about. If I go to sell my item I have two choices. I can sell it to a buy order right now or I can list it at a higher price and wait. If I choose to sell to a buy order I am subtracting the difference from what I could sell for if I choose to wait. That amount has a value to me as a seller. The same is true only reversed if I am buying an item. Flippers provide that service to me.
I tried the delete char method with one of my slots. First new char creation, zone 1 got the shield. I’m saving it because I think prices will rise after April. Scarcity is a wonderful thing.
On another note, kudos to Anet for the implementation this time around. Grinding (yes I said it) for account bound skins with an rng chance at a sellable skin. Perfect imo.
In our particular instance value is not calculated on the front end, thus it does not add value.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate? I propose that when I flip, I am adding value to the item I am buying and adding value AGAIN to the same item when I sell it. Value does not equal cost.
I would also like to point out a key component to flipping that is being over looked. Time. When you post a buy order you are buying an item from a willing seller instantly. When you post an item for sale, the willing buyer receives it instantly. As a flipper, you are taking the time component out of the equation for the people you are dealing with. To say that flipping does not add value is incorrect. Time absolutely has a value.
I am of course talking about the transaction fees from flipping. 15% of a 600+g item is not insignificant. If this happens enough to increase prices as you claim, it should be worth mentioning. I’m not convinced a lack of flipping would lead to lower prices. It would reduce the time it takes for an item to reach equilibrium (a number that is constantly changing btw.) So if a shift up in the equilibrium price happens, the price would remain lower for longer but it would eventually reach where it should be. Higher velocity insures fewer transactions take place away from the equilibrium price.
flipping in game or in real world isnt usually a sign of equilibrium. They really have nothing to do with each other. Sure on one side you have the businessman buying something below value and selling it at value, but on the otherside you have situations where the value of the item is no longer its value in the actual world, but the percieved value as a stock, or commodity, or whatever. At that point flipping represents not the value of the item, but more of a game of hot potato amongst businessmen/gamblers to see who can profit the most before the bottom drops out.
regardless of the whole flipping debate, the real problem is 2 fold
1) the descrepancy between the most wealthy and the average players wealth continues to grow
2) The most effecient way to get almost any item is to buy it on the tp
these two together mean, the people with the most money also have the most effecient means of aquiring items, and also that regular players cannot compete with them in terms of buying power.
This means that for someone not hunting money anything that is desired is out of reach, and if you try to get it outside of the TP , you feel like you are wasting your time.
I’m not sure we think equilibrium is the same thing. I would define it as the price where supply meets demand at any given time. I’m no economist, but in my mind it is (without perfect information) an abstraction. Flipping (buy for one price, selling for another) increases the rate a given market gets close to an equilibrium price.
I agree with you on #2 but not entirely on #1. I will try to formulate an agrument in the morning.
I am of course talking about the transaction fees from flipping. 15% of a 600+g item is not insignificant. If this happens enough to increase prices as you claim, it should be worth mentioning. I’m not convinced a lack of flipping would lead to lower prices. It would reduce the time it takes for an item to reach equilibrium (a number that is constantly changing btw.) So if a shift up in the equilibrium price happens, the price would remain lower for longer but it would eventually reach where it should be. Higher velocity insures fewer transactions take place away from the equilibrium price.
Thank you for calling. I understand you have 4 large boxes of computer equipment and a nagging wife. Sir, have you tried emptying one of the boxes and putting the wife in it? I’ll hold while you do that.
My wife lol’d when I read it to her. Then she said “that’s not funny.” I might be in more trouble now.
Ghost locater destroyed…plus anything else not sellable/salvageable, never missed anything I destroyed…
Anet make up new currency/items for every new piece of content…so no need to hoard ever…
I even destroy below level gathering tools, black lion chests, quicker to destroy them, then sell on TP for 3b…
All that junk and managing it is slowing you down…
I do the same in real life btw except its right click…give to charity shop or recycle or bin depending on the condition/item…
No clutter in my life…
You and my wife would get along. We just moved and I had 4 big boxes of computer parts that I just can’t part with lol. She’s been giving me kitten about it all weekend.
Currently items are removed from circulation (lowering supply) when they are equipped. With the bind on purchase system supply is lowered on purchase. Ostensibly each purchase that lowered supply would also lower demand (you bought the one you want.) Wouldn’t this have a net zero affect on the price? What would it do to the amount of gold removed from the economy?
Binding precursors on purchase would only affect 1 group of people adversely, people that flip them for profit. If would have no effect for everyone else except to keep prices stabilized or possibly bring them lower.
Though the true benefits of such a system would occur most when introducing new items. It keeps the price lower for longer, only rising due to legitimate inflation and not via spikes caused by market speculation. As John has stated, the in-game market has experienced very little true inflation. This system would let such high-ticket items better mirror that.
I think it’s a little short sighted to say it would “only affect 1 group of people adversely” or otherwise. Also, what about the lack of all the gold leaving the economy from the “flippers.” If it happens as often as some people propose, wouldn’t it be a significant amount of gold not leaving the economy?
Currently items are removed from circulation (lowering supply) when they are equipped. With the bind on purchase system supply is lowered on purchase. Ostensibly each purchase that lowered supply would also lower demand (you bought the one you want.) Wouldn’t this have a net zero affect on the price? What would it do to the amount of gold removed from the economy?
If precursors are account bound on aquire, the “poor sap” that gets the wrong one for his characters would truely be a poor sap. Now at least they can sell the wrong one and purchase the one they want. This is true for all items and I think is one of the resons the Trading Post is so necessary. Currently all mobs have an equal chance at dropping items in your level range (if I understand the loot system correctly.) You don’t kill shatterer for a chance at “epic sword of awesome.” This goes back to phys’ posts earlier about intentional drops. I really like that word, intentional. I always felt there was something different about gw2’s loot system but couldn’t put a name to it. In other mmo’s you have specific mobs that drop specific items. They are intentional. Here we have mobs drop everything, so you have to have a method of converting what you get into what you want. I don’t dislike our system, in fact I find it a nice change. I can do what I want and still work towards the fat loot that I want.
Hehe I know where the events are. I want to be abe to link it to chat, click it and it go right to it on the map because I’m lazy and I thought it would be a cool function.
I’m not sure why people think playing the TP has to be some thing you do at the exclusion of all else.
You can play the game AND play the TP. It isn’t necessary to stand at the TP all day babysitting orders/posting as soon as possible.
I usually logout at the TP. I login, place some orders and put some stuff up for sale, then go play.
i ve done it, and it starts to make other activities feel less worthwhile (anything not earning a decent amount of gold) your constantly checking the market, analyzing time spent/maximizing earnings. When your way of best achieving your goal becomes to get money, and you get more money in a half hour than you would from doing other things for 3 or 4 hours, it starts to kill your desire to do other stuff.
I noticed a similar feeling with dragon/event chests. With my limited play time, I felt my time could be best spent getting my daily chests than anything else.
Edit: stupid phone.
Price keeps Legendary…. Legendary. Skill at TP is just as valid as skill at adventuring.
Very true…but both should be equal in the amount of gold you can get for the time put in.
Idea: No more item drops. Everyone is paid Xg/hr for being logged in. Also, no more TP. Wouldn’t want anyone to make g. Everything obtainable from npc. Ya, I’d play that game.
Huh? This comparison is just as ridiculous as the burger flipper/Surgeon.
If you mean to say not ridiculous at all but aptly put, thank you. If you meant you would like a surgeon to operate on you while making minimum wage, good luck to you.
I’ve said it before, if you had the gold for a precursor when they were 90 gold you should have purchased one. Same applied at 600g. Same will apply at 900g. Imo.
On a similar note, I find it humorous when there are people out there who pick on those who bought precursors very cheaply several months ago.
Well back then, that ‘cheap’ price was the market price. For all we know the market price that people pay right now 700g would be considered cheap a few months down the road when they are 900g.
Can’t pick on the people who bought things cheaply because they weren’t cheap at that time.
A few days after release, I remember Dusk was 10g. Does it look cheap now? Hell yeah. But for two days in a game, 10g was A LOT.
If I’m picking on anyone (your words not mine), it’s the people who had the gold, wanted a precursor, but didn’t buy one. I realize cheap (again, I never said cheap) is relative. Regardless, hindsight being 20/20, see my earlier statement.
Edit: i can’t read apparently.
Price keeps Legendary…. Legendary. Skill at TP is just as valid as skill at adventuring.
Very true…but both should be equal in the amount of gold you can get for the time put in.
Idea: No more item drops. Everyone is paid Xg/hr for being logged in. Also, no more TP. Wouldn’t want anyone to make g. Everything obtainable from npc. Ya, I’d play that game.
I’ve said it before, if you had the gold for a precursor when they were 90 gold you should have purchased one. Same applied at 600g. Same will apply at 900g. Imo.
But none of this matters. Can someone please explain to me how this “manipulation” leads to profits? No profits = no motivation to do it = no one will do it in such a large scale.
You are ignoring the “evil” part in “evil market manipulators.” I think that is a pretty big part of why this type of conspiracy is so prevalent. Not that you ignored it but that rich people are evil. (They’re not.)
The only plausible explanation for such an increase in that short amount of time is someone bought a good portion of them and relisted for 130g more.
Of course it is.
760g * (0.85) = 646g. 16g per dusk.
Surely the evil market manipulators determined that the best way to tie up 630g * (Dusks) of capital was to use it to slowly make 16g per dusk over a few days.
Plus the 38g to list each one. Everyone knows evil market manipulators can’t add.
The listing price was included in LFk x 0.85 calculation
I was adding to the amount of capital each dusk would tie up. 630g to buy it + 38g to relist it.
The only plausible explanation for such an increase in that short amount of time is someone bought a good portion of them and relisted for 130g more.
Of course it is.
760g * (0.85) = 646g. 16g per dusk.
Surely the evil market manipulators determined that the best way to tie up 630g * (Dusks) of capital was to use it to slowly make 16g per dusk over a few days.
Plus the 38g to list each one. Everyone knows evil market manipulators can’t add.
Was Anet satisfied with the prices of precursors when they were 200g? Evidently they were. If you had the gold you should have bought one. In the absence of any info now, if you have the gold you should buy one.
Let’s say for a moment the op is right. (I think he is but for different reasons.) If the number of sell orders is low, why wouldn’t they increase in price? Even if dusk’s were soulbound on tp purchase, the new seller’s (people who crafted or got lucky with a world drop) would notice the low number of available dusk’s and possible raise the price. There is no way to tell the difference, and a higher price does not prove manipulation.
Edit: I apologize, the op didn’t specify market manipulation, but the tone of the thread seems to imply it.
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