Guild Wars 2

Has anyone one else noticed hammer damage was reduced on all abilities?

deherch.3158:

@2: I use smite condition. And I know many others do too. I like the fact that I can remove a condition on command with a damage bonus

@12: The hammer is quite useful, but the problem with all spirit weapons is that the cooldown doesn’t start until the weapon disappears.. So traiting for longer lasting spirit weapons is not as useful as it could have been.

@13: Renewed focus makes you invulnerable, you will not take damage from conditions (for 3sec), I don’t know if it prevents new conditions during those 3 sec, but I would hope so.

I agree on all other points

Eh, renewed focus you still take damage from conditions, it only prevents direct damage. I have and will continue to die while casting Renewed focus to conditions.

I wouldn’t say many thousands if you are solo, you might be lucky to hit maybe 2k healing in a fight without allies around. Keep in mind the amount of healing done from this is very little (for me its 193 for each boon).

Some of our abilities, some of our traits are dependent on allies being around us. Ultralistic healing does nothing with no allies around to buff/heal you. 1v1 sPvP is vastly different then 1v1 in WvWvW. I am talking about the later.

Guardian alone = easy to kill, we depend on having others around us for better healing. Its not impossible, but not practical to play solo.

bwillb.2165:

SKuDDer.1860:

SFtheWolf.5179:

SKuDDer.1860:

Me me me guardian guardian me

My arguments were general and neither meant purely for the guardian class nor purely for you personally.

Tangentially I’m amazed how many people are missing the key detail that guardian is (typically) a team-centric support class, and the thief is (typically) a class about killing people who stray from the pack. Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

I mean, every single anti-thief argument I’ve read here assumes that you have 0 teammates near you. Maybe that’s their first problem.

Oh makes sense now, so what you are saying is that in a game where there is no “classes” guardians are support only and thieves are a kill all class, great argument. If you want to get technical, thieves should only be able to take out cloth/leathers, meaning warrior and guardians should be off limits for a thief to try to kill alone.

He didn’t say “thieves are a kill class”, he said that thief is a lone wolf who preys on the foolish or wounded sheep who strays from the pack. Thief, as a class, is built mainly around roaming alone or with another thief and preying on the weak. Thieves are more suited for this type of gameplay than most other classes, but less suited to go up against an organized team than most other classes.

So now you are saying a thief should only be able to prey on those who are being attacked and not full health? The only thing a thief cannot kill is a full toughness/vitality specced warrior or guardian.

@amins,

Your stat combination seems to be off, unless when you say 2560 toughness you mean armor? Then I could believe that combination. To have 2560 toughness with 17.5k hp and 75% crit damage and +665 healing, something in your statement is wrong.

SFtheWolf.5179:

SKuDDer.1860:

Me me me guardian guardian me

My arguments were general and neither meant purely for the guardian class nor purely for you personally.

Tangentially I’m amazed how many people are missing the key detail that guardian is (typically) a team-centric support class, and the thief is (typically) a class about killing people who stray from the pack. Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

I mean, every single anti-thief argument I’ve read here assumes that you have 0 teammates near you. Maybe that’s their first problem.

Oh makes sense now, so what you are saying is that in a game where there is no “classes” guardians are support only and thieves are a kill all class, great argument. If you want to get technical, thieves should only be able to take out cloth/leathers, meaning warrior and guardians should be off limits for a thief to try to kill alone.

@kami
Wouldn’t that put you at around 13000 hp?

Kami.7369:

Maybe it’s just Darkhaven Guardians, but I’m pretty much always on the front lines, and it takes 3+ people to bring me down. And even then, I can drag 10+ people the distance of a Supply depot to a Keep entrance with them trying to kill me.

/highfive Kita

I personally run an Alturistic Healing build with Hammer and Sword/Shield.

6 Lyssa Runes in full Valk Gear with Valk Weapons (Accuracy Sigil in Shield Strength Sigils in Sword and Hammer)

Full Knights Jewlery

0/15/30/20/5

Again, this kind of build is fine if you don’t actually want to do any damage, which to me is not fun. For some, it is fun to survive and force a zerg to chase you down. If that is your cup of tea, go for it. Mine is to do average dmg output while not being exploded from aoe and insane burst dps from other glass cannons, but without proper CC, it is hard for a guardian.

@Judas

The main difference in what you linked to thieves, is the burst a thief does in raw spike, can be done with in a 2-3 second period, the engineer has to cast his abilities and cc is target in the aoe. It is much easier to dodge and have reaction time to those burst then a thief. Other glass cannons are visible the whole time while a thief pops in and out of stealth using CND and you are forced to aoe spam randomly. Heartseeker also helps aid a thief to kittenget a player with little skill followed by another CND and easy setup for a backstab. Thieves have a lot of “easy mode”. Also for the XXX time, its the same deal, you comparing PvP to my point is like me comparing WvW to your point, they are vastly different and both cannot be balanced around each other. In WvW, these builds for thieves are too strong.

1. Healing Breeze (Have not met a single guardian who uses this)
2. Smite condition (1 condition with 20s CD? This is way to high of a CD for what it does, maybe if it was 3 conditions I would use this)
3. Contemplation of Purity (CD is too high considering how fast conditions can be applied, also meditation is not very useful as a whole in any build)
4. Merciful Intervention (Lets face it, 80s CD is insane for anyone trying to do WvW, this skill in very impractical, the heal itself isn’t even that much and it often targets clones/pets)
5. Judge’s Intervention (Don’t get me wrong I use this in my build, but I still think the 45s CD is a bit too long, 30s seems more reasonable considering the damage isn’t that high, its our only teleporting ability for offense)
6. Sanctuary (Its not horrible, but 120 seconds CD? I mean that’s more then one of our elite skills. The heal isnt even that good, its really only good for blocking a charging zerg or trolling people in puzzles.)
7. Save Yourselves (Should be on a 45s CD, 60 is a bit much for WvW play, its 45s if traited, but really should be 30 when traited considering it only gives 10s of buffs)
8. Hallowed Ground (Again, CD 80s? I am starting to think they really want to make guardians not a viable profession in WvWvW with options. This CD should be brought down to 60s, and it should damage enemies inside at the same time)
9. Signet of Judgement (Not horrible, but no one is going to waste a valuable skill slot on this for PvP or WvWvW, the benefit just isn’t that great. Perhaps also add an aoe chill or immobilize to the casted part)
10. Signet of Wrath (First, hardly anyone uses condition damage as a guardian, because well none of our melee abilities do condition damage, secondly the immobilize for 3 seconds isn’t bad, but think of it like this, if you cast this at max range 1200, it will take longer then 3 seconds for you to get to the target before they are running again)
11. Signet of Mercy (No one would ever use this in a PvP or WvWvW situation. It should provide a passive regeneration and the revive ally should work on dead players not just downed players)
12. Spirit Weapons (All of them are pretty sub par, because guardian has no melee condition or cripples from our base skills, perhaps have these apply conditions( vuln, cripple, chill, bleed, etc. That will make them more useful.)
13. All Elite skills except Renewed Focus (Lets face it, guardians hate their elite skills, even renewed focus doesn’t stop conditions from being put on/damaging you. I hardly can find a reason to use the two books, they don’t last long enough and they don’t do enough damage or heal for enough to be that useful in a WvWvW situation. Almost all of the forms are incredibly useless except for the snow leopard, but only because it has a short stealth that aids in getting into a keep/tower and a long speed burst. Those forms are on way to long of a CD for how long they last and how little damage they do compared to other professions elites skills.

SFtheWolf.5179:

All the more reason it’s asinine how so many guardians complain that thieves do more damage than them.

When did I ever complain about our damage? I know guardians are not meant for heavy burst or dps, they are suppose to make up for that in mitigation.

SFtheWolf.5179:

The guardian(s) in question built with ridiculously little health, so they’re glass regardless of if they’re cannon.

Exactly how much HP do you think a guardian have? I have 6000 extra health over our base. That’s 600 extra points into vitality. Keep in mind, guardians have no where near the damage output of other professions so taking more off power/precision really hurts their output (even with the build I have, I hit for 3-4k max). You will find 16000 is the average health a guardian has in the hybrid mid range build for damage and defense. Guardians that have 20000 hp, bunker guardians, do hardly any damage and are purely support based.

SFtheWolf.5179:

You dodge roll by anticipating when they’re near you. Everyone has attack patterns and they can be observed and used against them. It’s easy to notice an enemy thief telegraphing their moves in subtle ways over the course of a single PvP match. Maybe it’s just because I play fighting games, but that doesn’t make the point any less valid.

Again, the argument is WvWvW, sure in a PvP scenario, it is clear there is 1 or 2 players coming at you. In WvWvW environment, there might be 10, 15 and you have no time to see what every profession is yet alone who is about to teleport/cnd/backstab you. This is not telegraphed easily in the WvW environment. In PvP yes I will agree.

SFtheWolf.5179:

The render bug is a bug and will be fixed. It’s not appropriate as a long term balance argument.

This is doubtful, its been in the game since alpha, 3rd month past release. There is not going to be an easy way for them to fix this any time soon. It might be another 6 months down the road, and that is a long time to wait to allow one profession to benefit from it, so in the meantime, yes I do feel like an adjustment to stealth should be made to help with the rendering issue (IE render targets by proximity first)

SFtheWolf.5179:

This is aside from the fact that there is such a wealth of counters in this game which are designed to combat burst attacks. There are invuln moves, aegis, smoke fields, stealth, dodge, stun breaks, all of which counter a correctly anticipated burst attack. This applies to 100 blades warriors just as well, which I rarely die to either.

Maybe you should look at the guardian profession and see what they can actually do before assuming they have all these things.

SFtheWolf.5179:

Another obvious counter is to just get swiftness (and/or cripple them) and run around. If they shadow step up (and you’ll already be forcing them to use it when they possibly don’t want to) then try and face them when the backstab comes. Half their biggest attack’s damage gone just because you pointed your character the right way.

Guardians have 0 cripples in their melee and skill abilities. They get 1 cripple in their elite book skill.

SFtheWolf.5179:

So hit them while they’re stealthed. Immobilize them. Pull them. Players are not PvE mobs. They’ve essentially got their whole bar on cooldown and if they hasted they can’t even dodge roll. They probably only have a single avenue of exit. If they have multiple ways out, then it’s your fault for putting yourself in a really bad tactical position.

Guardians have 2 immobilizes, one in the hammer which is a casted line spell for 2s, and the other is from a signet no one ever uses. Greatsword is the only pull guardians have (600 range) a thief can get out of that gap in 3 heartseeker/death blossoms, or shortbow teleport.

Anyways, I will have some videos up of WvW shortly, I was working on them and did not have time to finish them yesterday. It will all be small group play(4-5), as a guardian, don’t expect to ever solo run around.

Krathalos.3461:

SKuDDer.1860:

Typical, brush it off on something else with no proof to back it up? You thieves keep saying show proof, but yet you show none in return. I just showed you a video of a current thief (who’s not all that good) easily rolling people, sometimes multiple in WvWvW.

I like the response though. Its like saying, well mesmers can push one button and kill the whole server instantly, there is a video out there somewhere.

@nightynight, hardly any of them I see in the video have greens arrows, but good try derailing it.

Except the Engineer video is a well-known video. The fact that you haven’t seen it makes me think the first time you came to these forums was to complain that you died to a thief.

I also like how you claim the thief isn’t good. You’re just amazing at this game and the only time you die is to OP thieves, right?

Remember: WvW videos are awful when you’re trying to prove a point. You can do an 8 hour run in WvW on any class and pick out parts in which you owned someone in order to make said class seem overpowered.

I assume you are talking about the videos that were from beta/september which are impossible to do anymore. Same as the thief used to be in sPvP with the signet.

On a side note, google engineer burst damage, search you tube videos, sort by views, and what are the top videos? Thief burst backstab videos lol.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=gw2+engineer+burst+damage&search_sort=video_view_count

SFtheWolf.5179:

This is the same pattern I see with everyone complaining about thief, or really any profession.

Player A builds themselves glass cannon. Player B is also built glass cannon and manages to burst them down.

Player A has predetermined that they are the only one in the universe allowed to go high risk/high reward and demands that Player B’s profession/build be nerfed into uselessness.

And if backstab did any less damage, it would be useless.

Learn to dodge roll, learn to anticipate sneak attacks, learn about stun breaks, learn to build with some actual health, and most importantly learn to fight different classes differently. You’re not supposed to be able to flowchart every fight the same way.

1. Glass cannon does not exist in guardian. There is only hybrid builds that are roughly 50% defensively specced with some kind of damage. There is no burst with guardian.
2. How does one learn to dodge roll what one cannot see? Thief steals 900 range or uses shortbow teleport / CND in that time, you do not render them in WvWvW. They position behind you, it takes all of .01s to side step once, backstab… dead or close to death.

The thing that is the problem, is say the thief doesn’t kill the target and realizes they aren’t going to win, they just CND, and run away easily. There is no draw back to this high burst build. Glass cannon usually means you die when you don’t win, this is not the case at all with thieves. But its fine, keep justifying the High damage, low risk.

Devildoc.6721:

SKuDDer.1860:

Typical, brush it off on something else with no proof to back it up? You thieves keep saying show proof, but yet you show none in return. I just showed you a video of a current thief (who’s not all that good) easily rolling people, sometimes multiple in WvWvW.

I like the response though. Its like saying, well mesmers can push one button and kill the whole server instantly, there is a video out there somewhere.

@nightynight, hardly any of them I see in the video have greens arrows, but good try derailing it.

WvW should NEVER be used as evidence for something being in balance or not. WvW is not INTENDED to be balanced. People who are low level may get scaled to 80, but they are NOT on an even playing field with level 80 players in exotics. Not to mention orbs.

Yes but someone who is lvl 80, fully geared is an equal comparison, and FYI, orbs have been out of the game for almost a week now. It is no different then when people in PvP get things nerfed for other professions which have a greater or different impact on WvWvW and PvE.

I suppose there is 8 :P, Also, Danicco you take my hatred for being a guardian in WvWvW straight out of my thoughts.

The thing people tend to not look at when comparing guardians:

1. Yes guardians have some of the best mitigation traits/skills in the game.
2. No guardians do no have the best survivability traits, as a guardian you make a choice. Either you go in and die, or you go in and win. If you go in and realize you are losing the battle, there is no escaping the battle as a guardian, we have very little to no survivability in this manner.
3. We have no range, the staff is a only 600 range, very poor skills, and its a damage is not in a 3d plane, but a 2d plane. You won’t hit anything above or below your plane.
4. We have very poor condition applications. Look at other classes, they have tons of ways to apply conditions via weapon skills, we do not. We barely get any form of viable CC. No bleeds, no cripples, a few blinds, a few vulnerabilities, a few burns, no fears, very few chills, very few/poor immobilze.
5. Our condition removal is sub par, most of the abilities only remove 1 condition and have a high CD.
6. Not a burst profession

The list can go on, but plain and simple, as a guardian if you don’t chase down someone with another profession such as a warrior, they will probably get away from you. No one fears a guardian, they are just annoyed that they take longer to kill then other professions.

Kita.7819:

SKuDDer.1860:

@Kita,

Not trying to rain on your parade, but if people closely inspected that screenshot, I counted 7 Up leveled 80’s. As much as I love smashing lowbies, lets be realistic, that wasn’t a fight against geared players.

I only count 3.

Not trying to be rude, but should count that again:
Who’s counting?

Typical, brush it off on something else with no proof to back it up? You thieves keep saying show proof, but yet you show none in return. I just showed you a video of a current thief (who’s not all that good) easily rolling people, sometimes multiple in WvWvW.

I like the response though. Its like saying, well mesmers can push one button and kill the whole server instantly, there is a video out there somewhere.

@nightynight, hardly any of them I see in the video have greens arrows, but good try derailing it.

Point proven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9o0LJor-HQ

In comparison to guardians, thieves elites are amazing.

Daeqar.8965:

SKuDDer.1860:

So just myth busting some more people.
My overall stat breakdown is the following:
Power 849
Toughness 789
Vitality 521
Precision 739
Crit % Damage 55

This gives me 43% crit chance.
On crit I give allies might, which in turn heals me. On killing a foe I get Virtue of justice back, using this gives allies boons, which in turn heals me. Every 3rd swing of my auto attack heals me and gives allies and myself a -33% damage buff, I use shouts that give allies/myself stability/retailation, and heal/dmg reduction, which in turn heals me.

Looking at the stat breakdown, toughness and vitality mathematically make up 44.36167% of my stats.
Power/Precision/Crit% make up 55.63833%.
So conclusion, almost 50% of my build makeup is for defensive, this != glass cannon, but keep trying to prove otherwise.

If anything you are further proving the point that thieves glass cannon build has too much survivability and needs to be revamped. More dmg should != more survivability. Put a CD on CnD, Remove the stealth or the condition removal on the thief heal. Glass cannon builds like this usually mean you end up dying, which is hardly the case as it stands.

Also, if your comment starts with sPvP, I really don’t want to hear about it. I don’t and never care to play sPvP. This whole thread is based around WvWvW, and yes, it does matter just as much as sPvP. You will never see a thief use this build in sPvP, but it dominates the thief builds in WvWvW

Just a quick fact check on your myth bust… (and by no means exhaustive)

You can’t just add in “crit damage” as 55 lumped in the same as other stats because the item budget is completely different. (Magic Find has the same issue.) You have 25 from gear and 30 from traits. If these were one of the normal stats, they would total up to 652, so you need convert it to 652 instead of 55 in order to compare apples to apples. That puts you more around 63% offensive stats…66% would be 2/3rds. You’re setup decidedly towards offense, although not “glass cannon.”

Well if you want to get technical yes, but then we have to factor in armor as a stat, which I 100% left out to offset the balance of not converting the %damage, heavy armor would probably bring that percentage back down to what I said.

@Kita,

Not trying to rain on your parade, but if people closely inspected that screenshot, I counted 7 Up leveled 80’s. As much as I love smashing lowbies, lets be realistic, that wasn’t a fight against geared players.

I talked about this for a long time in the crusade for cripple thread. Guardians for being the only melee only profession have a laughable set of skills for CCing players.

blackout, I suggest trying this build out for dungeons, you are tanky, heal often, do great damage, and provide plenty of boons to the group.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQFASlYg67WFSLEfIFRuA7DAETBGh/1DHSRGC;T0AA1ynEOJdS9kyJqsMZJyymlLLZWDLA

copy paste the link

So just myth busting some more people.
My overall stat breakdown is the following:
Power 849
Toughness 789
Vitality 521
Precision 739
Crit % Damage 55

This gives me 43% crit chance.
On crit I give allies might, which in turn heals me. On killing a foe I get Virtue of justice back, using this gives allies boons, which in turn heals me. Every 3rd swing of my auto attack heals me and gives allies and myself a -33% damage buff, I use shouts that give allies/myself stability/retailation, and heal/dmg reduction, which in turn heals me.

Looking at the stat breakdown, toughness and vitality mathematically make up 44.36167% of my stats.
Power/Precision/Crit% make up 55.63833%.
So conclusion, almost 50% of my build makeup is for defensive, this != glass cannon, but keep trying to prove otherwise.

If anything you are further proving the point that thieves glass cannon build has too much survivability and needs to be revamped. More dmg should != more survivability. Put a CD on CnD, Remove the stealth or the condition removal on the thief heal. Glass cannon builds like this usually mean you end up dying, which is hardly the case as it stands.

Also, if your comment starts with sPvP, I really don’t want to hear about it. I don’t and never care to play sPvP. This whole thread is based around WvWvW, and yes, it does matter just as much as sPvP. You will never see a thief use this build in sPvP, but it dominates the thief builds in WvWvW

Enjoy, please feel free to stream-snipe the guy with no delay. Its BG, he was asked by a few to turn the delay up more, but apparently 10 seconds is enough.

http://www.twitch.tv/nosleeptv

@Dominae

I’m pretty sure this is why people are screaming in your thread that you can’t just QQ about WvW and demand nerfs, because people CAN’T AVOID EVERYTHING.

why? everyone who sPvP’s demanded nerfs to the guardian because of retaliation being op’d in sPvP and look what happen? They have gotten to the point now where they actually nerf guardians for sPvP only because of how different the mechanics are (we have different timers/descriptions for some abilities for WvWvW-PvE and sPvP), so why cant they do the same for other profession in WvWvW?

I don’t argue that in sPvP this combo might not work well for thieves(lets face it, this build in a sPvP or tourny match would hurt your team only being able to burst down 1 person every minute in a limited duration match is bad), but in WvWvW, its a totally different story.

Nurvus.2891:

Are we going to go on the same crap as WoW forums?
Everyone asking for the stuff other classes/professions have?

Each profession has a certain type of mechanics, boons and conditions.
If you give Guardian Cripple, you give Warrior Aegis, and it all goes apekitten.

Want to make good suggestions?
Instead of asking Guardians to fight like Warriors, suggest stuff to make Guardians be better at what they do.

I have been, I am asking for glacial heart to be buffed to work with all weapons, and have a CD more like 10-15s. It honestly does not make sense why every single profession has cripples/ not to mention way more conditions on base melee abilities.

Arken.3725:

The cd’s on a lot of cripples are faster than our condition removals.(unless you have a ton of methods specced)

Keep in mind, conditional removal, poisons, bleeds, vuln, cripple, chill, etc, more then likely you have multiple on you all the time so the chances of you getting rid of cripple are slim.

Our conditional removal:
skills:
signet of resolve: 1 condition / 10s (as long as the signet is not used)
smite condition: 1 condition / 20s
purging flames: all conditions / 40s

weapons:
ray of judgement: 1 condition / 25s

runes
6 Piece sup rune of solider: 1 condition / shout

traits
radiance IX: using signets cure 1 conditions.
virtues: IX: using VoR cures 3 condtions (60s CD 45 Traited)

Actually now that i break it down, our conditional removal really isn’t that great.

Now in comparison to enemy conditions:
Warrior:
Greatsword:
-1- every 1/2s = vuln stack
-4- 4s cripple every 15s

Hammer:
-2- 8s weakness every 12s
-3- 7s cripple every 12s

Bow:
-2- 6s burning every 6s
-4-5s blindness every 15s
-5- 3s immobilze every 25s
-f1-10s burning every 10s

Rifle:
-1- 6s bleed every 1/2s
-2- 5s cripple every 10s
-4- 10s vuln every 15s

Axe:
-2- 8s vuln every 6s
-3- 4s cripple every 10s
… and so on, this is just the weapons, doesn’t even count the traits or skills.

Honestly every profession is similar so not going to look them all up. They can dish out conditions extremely fast.

Personally, these arguments about being a 1 hit wonder are not an excuse. Every class has to wait on cool-downs, but can no where near output that kind of burst damage thieves can with little that can be done to dodge or avoid. And thieves can do plenty of sustained damage when they are fighting with a group.

They just don’t want the combo adjusted because as of now, most who use it never die and always kill their target. I’m abusing now on my thief till its fixed and its awesome.

All these, “its your fault you aren’t paying attention, you have no skills, l2p, have better awareness” comments are just as invalid for WvWvW, sorry I can’t pick out the thieves from the group of 10,20,30+ that jump right in and smoke players, you are right that is my fault for not knowing he’s about to teleport from 1200 range with basil and venom prepped, and not dodge roll the second he CND and steals. I must be getting old, my reaction time cant handle that .25 seconds anymore.

@onemanarmy

To add on to what you said you have to keep in mind there is no real “healing” class in the game, so you never will be a true healer like other mmos. In this game its about you, so you are better off going more damage with ultralistic healing. This game focuses on self awareness and dodging. I tried to do this similar build and it was sub par, now my current build helps my allies and I do pretty insane dps (for a guardian).

Tonight I will be making some videos that add on to my other thread, you can watch me do coe path1 here(15mins): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3-4dM7-FRA&list=UUqhuzx2hFCNDyBuJgrnfcng&index=2&feature=plcp

Kashien.6278:

Empowering Might is for the times I do crit, and i use it primarily for WvWvW when we fight zergs. Hitting with a staff makes me hit ALOT of people, and if some of those crit, well ,that just more might for my allies.

I use writ of persistence more than anything.

Kashien, don’t quote me on this, but from my testing. The trait only applies to the direct target. Meaning if there is target a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h and you have target b selected, you will only get the buffs for crits on him, not for crits on any other players, otherwise you would be dishing out insane amounts of might, which with my build 45% crit, and when I use staff, I do not see this happening, so I assume it is safe to say that its the direct target only with aoe. You could see where this would get out of hand if it was all targets.

I believe this also has an internal cooldown of 1-5seconds, I think its 1s.

Also, i am critiquing your build, for pve, this build might provide a lot of support but your damage is being so dumbed down that your dps in your group would be much much less when the outputted heals aren’t that great, lets face it, no one is going to stand in your circle in most dungeons, otherwise they get hit with aoe. I am just trying to imagine you doing this in COE on any of the alpha fights.

Kashien.6278:

LOL. Did you actually read the post skudder? or just come on here to troll?

Superior rune of the water grantsa 5% chance on hit to remove a condition. NO COOLDOWN.

Signet of resolve removes a condition 1 every 10 seconds. Same thing for Purity. Conditions are not a problem.

Wrong, its 30s cooldown. Rune_of_the_Water

Well this is what will happen with this build, you will survive for minute, use up all your CDS, not have enough damage to kill the enemy, and die once you are on CD because you gave up valuable stats such as vitality or toughness for healing.

My first build I tried was something along these lines with full healing gear and it was horrible in WvWvW

Not quite sure how you say “hit like a truck” considering you might have 4% crit with this build.

What happens when someone puts weakness stacks on you and poisons for -33% healing? you now take 25% more damage and 33% less healing = you die 58% faster. And considering your makeup, you will have about 12000-13000 hp?

Also, why use shouts if you use meditation traits?

Empowering Might- Allies gain might for 5 seconds on crit (Did you forget? you won’t have any crit so this is a waste)

kuroi.5467:

i think you’re all crazy. it’s been very obvious from the beginning that they’ve been allowing guardians gap closers and roots only sparingly. i doubt any classes ability to really go toe to toe with a guardian in the face and come out on top, unless it’s a mesmer specifically configured to destroy melee and nothing else (which are really common I guess, but more cripples are not going to stop them lol… if anything, i agree we might need some sort of disengage, since we completely lack anything like that). Guardians can mitigate tons of damage and dish out healthy portions to the places nearby. It’s keeping badguys nearby that becomes the game. This is a game of land control, not 1 v 1, and it seems to me very obvious that the guardian is more suited to locking down a particular area. If you’re just blindly chasing some dood because you want them to die you’re probably not doing what’s best for your team. You have the advantage as a guardian because ultimately if they want your position they have to bring the fight to you. Imagine if the a bunker guardian could keep you from getting out of his bunker even more efficiently. Do you seriously want that?

I’m sorry it just sounds like “these guys are pissing me off by running away!!!!!!!! i want to kill them!!! give me cripples!!” and then a bunch of numberless proofless flowcharts of your own theorygames. guardians, as several subtler posters have mentioned, struggle with escape mechanics themselves. They don’t have great speed buffs (Symbol of Swif has to be targeted and cast), they don’t have great stun breaks. Do they really need to be chasing opponents indefinitely? Getting pulled into traps they can’t get out of? This game is about land control, if you’re opponent has to retreat, you’ve won a small victory.

Everything about the design smacks that this was very much intentional on ANet’s part. It fits in with the mechanical and artistic theme of the guardian as a defensive powerhouse. A defensive powerhouse that can MAKE you fight it is, in fact, an offensive powerhouse. Contrast it with the warrior, who is better at making you fight but will very rarely be as difficult to kill.

edit Leap of Faith, currently, has terrible functionality, at least in PvE. They’ve promised us fixes how many times now? but it still routinely falls well short of my target, ESPECIALLY if the target is not an actually mob (AC Graveling burrows, a big for-instance). This is probably a key element in pursuit and if it’s bugging in PvP too I feel your pain. I also wouldn’t mind a trait or something that gave it a brief immobilize (immoblize on blind? that’d be sick… dunno how else it’d impact though), but it at least needs to work the way it’s supposed to.

Again, the difference between PvP and WvWvW is your post, it is obvious you are a PvPer. In WvWvW guardians get to do nothing while attacking / defending a keep/tower for the most part. This is why I stick to supply camp defending. Plain and simple, its a melee only class, it needs better melee CC.

In PvP who cares if someone runs away, its about points and control. In WvWvW if you dont finish off that player, he runs out of the fight heals and comes back to aid his buddies. You win by downing more players, and when you cannot chase, or keep players near you long enough to smack them with your melee weapon…. eventually you lose. I get way more badges on my thief then my guardian.

The main difference here is you are use to people being forced to try to defeat you in PvP to cap the CP, and there is no real consequence to death, they do not have to run very far. In WvWvW if you die in the open, sometimes its a very long run back.

This is a good build if you don’t actually want to swing your weapon ever?

Suggestion, if you are going for full support build do this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUEQJARWlYgiCnFyKEf4ESmiVCBxUgRZ01jEyhYIA;T4AgzymEMJZS1kiJqsMZJyymlLLZWrNGiA

Copy paste the link

this way your shouts heal you. Also drop anything you put +healing on and replace with vitality. +healing at its current state is really bad.

This allows you to heal/give buffs to the front line while surviving. As a side note, the staff 4 ability every tick will heal you when you are giving out might boons, its a lot of healing with this build, 1-2k x 5

The thing to keep in mind is he is using greatsword, he is not doing that damage in one hit, its a stack of hits that just show the total damage done over time.

The other thing to note is in his videos most of those players are low level (aka green arrow up leveled 80s) while he is fully geared to the teeth.

Note2: watch around 3:30 you see what i mean about guardians have no way of keeping players near them, that ele got away easy peasy even with him using all his gap closers.

@andybmcc, all shouts that affect allies work with pure of voice. Allies affected by shouts convert one condition into a boon.

If i want to run, I use hammer skill 4 then save yourselves and run in the opposite direction. That pushes a target 750 away from you.

Build, probably have to copy paste to get it to work:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAS8elYg67GHSLEfIFSuA7DAEmCMC+ueQRYIDB;TkAqsMZJyymlLLZWrLGWsFB

Guardians don’t put out much damage. We all know this. We don’t have burst either. I am fine with that. Guardians instead get heals/defense. But the thing that drives me nuts is when you are fighting people, they flee.

Example, lets say its 5v5 at a supply camp. You engage, you start chasing a squishy, he cripples you, and runs, you break the cripple and use mightyblow or leap to catch him. you then get crippled by something else, you are forced to eat the cripple or use JI, say you use JI to get back to him at this point he healed. so you have to put damage back on him again. Now all your toys are on CD so if he cripples you again or teleports, well, you might as well pick another target.

The point is, we lack utility when it comes to CC. Don’t tell me our immobilizes are good, they are a joke. Zealots embrace on the hammer is good for about 200-300 range, beyond that, it never hits its target. Ring of warding, well they just dodge roll through and that one is a bust, then we are down to what? Signets? who uses those, if you are using the signets to CC you are sacrificing your survivability big time.

Again, PvP is vastly different then WvW, stop using that as a comparison. In PvP sure you can see people, because there is limited distance, limited routes that you can travel. Try the same in WvW, you have more paths, more elevation, more obstacles. Not to mention stats in PvP don’t reflect stats in WvW, they are greatly different, then you toss in the effects of orbs, if a thief has 3 orbs game over.

Don’t worry, I will be making some videos tonight. From both the thief doing the damage, and the guardian taking it. To prove the point my build is not glass cannon or squishy, I will show you how I jump into zergs and push their line and have time to retreat.

@sogeou, I am hardly glass cannon build, for one there is no such thing in guardian. my build has 3000 armor and -33% dmg reduction. Glass cannon infers you do not put any toughness or spec toughness in your build, I have both, full line of toughness and toughness in all my gear. But I guess its reasonable that I can still be downed in 2-4 seconds by a thief that I cannot see even with that much armor and damage mitigation.

Tell you what, lets meet up. I will use my thief, and record videos of me dropping you before you know what I did to you, this will be the combo, assuming you have about 1800 toughness and 3000 armor, with around 1kittenp. Unless you are full bunker build which is pointless because you do hardly any damage.

You also assume you have aegis up all the time for the first attack, which usually is not the case, its once every 45s or 30 if traited.

Anyways here is what will happen:
Step 1: Hit you once, shield is gone
Step 2: I cast Scale Venom, then Basilisc venom on you, you cannot do anything for 1.5s (no spells no movement),
Step 3: use steal/cloak and dagger at the same time along with activating assassin’s signet (150% dmg on next attack), this way my backstab hits you for about 9-11k depending on your armor levels) My cloak and dagger already hits you for about 4-6k, and my steal for about 3-5k. In this time you have been unable to do anything because of basilisc venom. (At this point at min i have done 16k damage in 3 attacks, and max 22k) So depending on your health you are downed/barely alive.
Step 4: Depending on the circumstance, 1 heartseeker, or stealth and flee from battle.

If a thief uses shadowstep, they instantly get ported up to 1200 range, 1 step and they are out of your JI.

Eh if your heal and shadowstep are on cd, you are being too bold with your thief and that has to do with player skill level. Every 50 seconds you can remove basically all conditions twice, that is more then average in my book.

You can use JI to warp up some cliffs as long as they are not too tall. This won’t work on keep/tower walls, I have tried this extensively.

You shouldn’t have to use a bug/exploit in the animation to have a better chance at killing people, this needs to be fixed or adjusted.