Guild Wars 2

Pyroathiest.4168:

Selvyn.1043:

This is of course just my opinion, for me, condi-shatter is always going to be better then clone death PU. For you, evidently it is not :O

Well, there’s that question of ‘better’.

In a team fight, I’d rather have a clone-death PU build. They won’t die, and the aoe weakness/cripple is stronger than a bit of torment and vulnerability. A Maim build has a distinct chance of dying, due to the significantly lower defense.

For a point assaulter, I’d rather have a clone-death PU build. A Maim build won’t kill any good player significantly faster than a standard PU condition build, particularly since to hold a point the enemy is forced to eat all of the clone explosions. On top of that, a PU build can easily survive in a 2v1 situation if the defender calls for help, where a Maim build will either have to run or die.

So that’s pretty much it for tPvP. There’s no role or situation where I’d rather have a Maim build than a PU condie build on my team.

In WvW zerging, both builds suck.

In WvW roaming, I’d rather be on a PU condie build. WvW is notorious for producing outnumbered fights at the blink of an eye, and you need to be able to handle that capably without dying. Maim builds can’t do that, they sacrifice too much for the torment shatter.

So where and how exactly is a Maim build better?

I don’t believe I asked a question of what was better, I said what was better for me.

You seem to continually fail to mention/forget the other benefits of shattering. You will always apply confusion with every shatter due to Illusionary Retribution (I don’t think I need to say how good this makes Cry of Frustration), as well as Torment, you also gain might from every shatter. If you invest in Domination you also gain access to some serious vulnerability stacking, which you can use to take targets down quickly. Debilitating Dissipation randomly applies weakness, bleeding or vulnerability, and is therefore somewhat unreliable if you are hoping for one particular condition, weakness in your case. I would not class 3 stacks of Torment & Confusion weak, it is punishment for using skills and moving, come on.

As for point assaulting, yes, the enemy is forced to take all damage, a Maim build would deliver that damage faster, and delivers more threatening conditions with high stacks of Torment/Confusion/Vulnerability (how is Weakness/Cripple going to help you here?). And yes, a PU build could survive a 2v1 if a defender called for help, but again you would not be able to take either person out if they collectively had half a brain, you’d spend half the time in stealth which does nothing to help you decap and the opponents can ignore you. With a Maim build, you have more than enough resources to still take on 2 people, there is also more possibility of being able to take someone out, a trade off for being less resilient.

You can now tell me that you also think confusion is a waste of time, but isolating each condition when in actuality they are always applied together in this build makes them potent, whichever way you look at it. They can be cleansed yes, but so can anything your build throws out. Reapplication is easy for both builds.

I don’t normally partake in wvw so I won’t comment too much, but yes I can totally see how both builds would be a waste of time in a zerg. For roaming, it falls down to preference, any Mesmer can deal with a sudden outnumbered fight due to the numerous tools you have to escape and regroup if things develop into something you cant handle, this isn’t just exclusive to a particular build.

You state that you are “sacrificing” trait points to get MTD, in a shatter build you will almost always want to go 6 into illusions line so it is hardily a sacrifice.

You are only confirming what I said, that in your opinion you would rather play Clone Death PU or have someone with you playing that build than a Maim-Shatterer.

I get that clone deaths are probably easier to land, personally I have always been more akin to shattering, so I have found ways of making my shatters land. There is no reason to say you cant use both together like in Nazer’s variation of the build, I have tried it but prefer investing points in domination over chaos.

You don’t have the control over clone death that you do with shattering, you can force clone death to happen by summoning more illusions but this is very similar to shattering…so why not just shatter? There’s also the possibility of the clones not being in the right place when they die, at least with shatters they will make their way to the target, its just up to you to make sure they get there :P

Clone death PU is more resilient of course, the combination of boons and stealth is sublime there is no denying it, but I doubt you will be killing anyone in an outnumbered fight unless they are actually killing your clones, you simply play the role of a bull fighter and can be largely ignored.

Shatter is significantly more forceful, no where near the same survivability of course, but more selective use of stealth makes up for it, you will pressure the opponents much more by actively applying conditions rather than passively applying them via clone death.

This is of course just my opinion, for me, condi-shatter is always going to be better then clone death PU. For you, evidently it is not :O

Pyroathiest.4168:

Underestimate? I won’t underestimate it, but when I see someone using it, I know there are a lot of strong counters. I’ll know to dodge the shatters. I’ll know to proc a block on the shatters. I might even just ignore the fact that you shatter at all and let my pDisenchanter remove the wimpy condition load it applies from me. There’s so many easy ways to counter it.

When you say things like that, it leads to people underestimating the trait, I didn’t necessarily mean you personally would be underestimating it, so I apologise for that

Anything can be countered, and the methods you state can be effective…

However,

Torment is not the only condition that is going to be applied, used in tandem with other tools the Mesmer has access to you would be loaded with more than torment. Yes pDisenchanter\other cleanses will help, but it is not difficult to reapply the conditions or adjust gameplay.

And in the meantime, all I have to do is keep an eye on your clones to make sure I am not near them when they die. Oh, yeah, clone on death gameplay is full of strong counters too, lets not forget that

Pyroathiest.4168:

Torment shatter is very fun to play though. I wish it were viable, but my opinion is that it is not, any build using that trait is inherently weak.

Please say this more (well, i did correct it for you a little bit, but still, say it all you like) the more people that underestimate this trait the better

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpItdqxRNcrNyrBh6oMmcSyBEgSmgoB-TZxCwAAeAA73fYypAYbZAGHBAA

I’m also playing my own variation of a torment shatter build, there is no denying the power of PU but it just doesn’t suit me, i find with this build that I can apply a strong amount of conditions constantly and pressure the opponent, I do share the problem with my fellow PU mesmers that if an enemy decides to run I don’t really have anything available to chase them down, but with enough torment and the possibility of chill it can be enough to catch them sometimes, most people don’t try to run until its already too late, the smart ones…well if they want to escape they are going to, just count that as a win instead.

The 4 into Domination along with traveler runes gives nice up-time on your conditions, I go for rending shatter since it allows teamies to do more damage and is also an extra condition that has to be cleansed in order for opponents to rid themselves of confusion, bleeding, burning, torment etc. I hope that my other trait choices are understandable, they are suited to how I play though so you could want to change some things. I saw no use in strengthening illusions in any way as they will only be shattered, that is also my philosophy on clone-on-death traits, it is nice to have if clones die before they get the chance to shatter, it is down to personal preference really, but when you can manage to apply 10+ stacks of confusion, which is delightfully cruel all on its own, along with bleeding, burning, vulnerability and torment it is certainly rewarding (obviously you would have to ensure they cannot cleanse :P) and the need for clone on death traits become less of a requirement and more of a choice.

Let us know what you try out and have the most fun with

Dastion.3106:

My main issue is that the bugged Power Block just highlighted the fact that thieves are basically immune to an offensive mechanic that everyone else is subject to. I don’t care if they don’t have CDs normally, the interrupt CD is a separate mechanic from normal skill CDs.

In all fairness that is a flaw in the thief class/interrupt mechanic rather than in mesmers themselves.

And something I have been wondering since April 15, does a thief still use the initiative cost of a skill that gets interrupted?

Mystogan.4157:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Interruption

2 sec immo 2 sec chill. whats the point of a 2 sec chill if they are immobilized the same duration. its only a 1 sec cripple AFTER the immobilize. only decent thing is the blind. oh and if you interrupt with a stun its useless. sig of dom is 3 sec stun, pistol is 2 sec stun, which is the same duration of the immobilize and same duration of the chill.

Well I believe the 2 sec chill increases the recharge times of the skills you interrupt by 66%, as well as any other skills on CD, whilst it is on the enemy. Some classes have traits etc that can remove immobilize, such as warrior movement skills, so a cripple could ensure they don’t get far if they manage to break out of it.

As for In-Elastisity/iWardnot/iLeapnowhere, not getting fixed yet, lets try to remain positive and hope they will be fixed soon, at least the first two, I see no issue in being negative towards Anet for things like this because it is genuinely upsetting having a nice juicy bug fixing steak (or a very nice vegetable if you happen to be a veggie) dangled in-front of you and then taken away at the last possible second. All we can do is hope they will be addressed soon, even though we have been waiting a very long time for some of these fixes. Until then we can cope with IE not working on staff clones and iLeap occasionally getting us nowhere. iWardnot is an unfair one though…

Anywho, yay Mesmer positivism! …however small it seems right now, people are still playing the class and finding their way so i see that as very positive.

Stay Mesmerizing folks

Okay, I can settle for “it’s not bad”, that is still more positive than “EVERYTHING IS BAD NOOOOO”.

I still see BD as a trait option for bulky shatter builds, but that’s just me, I love messing around with traits and seeing what works/doesn’t work for me. I realise everyone is different though

Yes, well, as I said, I was not trying to be blindly optimistic and stating things like “Disruptor’s Sustainment is a good trait” for example, is stupid on my part and idiotic if you were to believe it. :P

I do see validity in Bountiful Disillusionment for alternate shatter builds, not everyone likes running PU, which is yes, a very powerful trait indeed, but requires you to be in stealth to reap the rewards, there isn’t anything wrong with that it is just I see PU as a defensive boon supply with defensive boons and BD as an offensive boon supply with offensive boons. Pdefender may offer retal but doesn’t sit well in a shatter build and requires you to place points in inspiration. PU & BD are for two different playstyles in my opinion.

The traits haven’t been out long enough to state they are all sub-optimal, though we can probably rule out some of the more…uhm, interesting ones ^^;

echo.2053:

Why shouldn’t players be punished for mindlessly spamming ? With the excessive amount of stability, invulnerability, evades, and now this, it’s pretty much a copy of the confounding suggestions trait, you know that other interrupt trait for the same amount of points.

In your opinion, are players not already punished for “mindlessly spamming” as you put it?

I don’t think Stability is much of an argument given the Mesmer’s numerous boon stripping abilities. Invulnerability and evades put a stop to every kind of damage from every kind of player, not just one playstyle a Mesmer can choose to build around.

Power Block activates on any kind of interrupt and has more of an impact on what a player will do. So no I wouldn’t say it is a copy of Confounding Suggestions, since all it does is increase daze times and has a chance of stunning the enemy, which can be broken by the player, there is nothing they can do about a longer cooldown from Power Block however.

I have played around with every shatter trait there is, some are quite underwhelming, particularly shattered conditions in the inspiration line, though to be honest the inspiration line is no place for shatter traits anyway considering the line is largely based on phantasms and, you know, not shattering them. Maybe if shattered illusions and restorative illusions were rolled into one and we got a new trait which turns one of our shatters into a combo finisher of some sort, that would be pretty cool, not to mention supportive. Anyway, I digress.

So far I am happy with Bountiful Disillusionment and see it as a worthwhile trait, it doesn’t step on PU’s toes as it offers different boons and a different playstyle, im managing to keep near 100% uptime on retaliation with the help of confusing cry, around 12~15 stacks of might, it can easily be turned into a supportive build with signet of inspiration. I am running 0/4 II,X/6 IV,VIII,XIII/0/4 II,VIII at the minute.

It is worth noting that you get the boons and duration listed no matter how many illusions you shatter.

Hi All,

This is my first post here…I think, I have played a Mesmer since release but I am a rather casual player if I do say so myself. I love my Mesmer and I know you are all very passionate about the class.

The countless posts I have seen about the uselessness of the new traits is quite staggering though, I don’t agree with most of it and would hope we could be more positive about the changes (please note: more positive and blindly optimistic are two different things and I am the former not the latter- which is why I will just touch on things that I see as a positive change to the class).

Power Block
I was excited to hear about this and saw the trait for what it was, when it came to us wrapped in a big bugged bow I was heavily disappointed, the ability to put 10 second cooldowns on skills that had never been susceptible to such a thing prior to the trait’s creation was frankly as OP as when phantasmal haste made phantasms have no cooldown between skills in beta. Now that it has been fixed, or as some would say “nerfed” has led to people stating the trait is now completely useless.

Had this trait been introduced properly without the bug I think Mesmers would have reacted differently, as it was bugged, it required very little skill to actually punish other players for using skills. Now it will properly punish another player based on the skill of the Mesmer waiting for the right time to interrupt (e.g healing skills, skills other classes have which have a small time-frame for opportunity to interrupt, Guardian’s Whirling Wrath/Binding Blade, Necro’s death shroud skills, Warrior Hambow builds- Pin Down is now far easier to interrupt with the change. etc etc). Interrupting ressing and finishing is still something you can do, its not as if it is no longer possible just as it has been since release. I feel this trait has its place and there will be more variety within lockdown builds, not every Tom kitten and Harry will play the same lockdown build, which is something i see as quite positive.

Bountiful Disillusionment
I see this skill as means to create more defensive and supportive shatter builds, I have tested this trait somewhat and found that it can be as effective as the normal shatter set up, the uptime on the boons is quite significant and it has good synergy with other traits that would normally be slightly underwhelming on their own (e.g confusing cry). Might stacking is also achievable which I felt was something regular shatter builds had a hard time doing with no investment in boon duration (this is without food buffs of course). I see this trait as a positive change by opening up more trait spreads for shatter builds.

Maim the Disillusioned
This trait. I was happy to see there is another thread were people are using this trait and having positive things to say about it. Along with the Crit Damage changes and this trait I feel condition-shatter is a much more viable playstyle and no longer overshadowed by PU condition builds. More variety yet again!
I have used this trait the most since the new traits were available and would invite anyone who likes a condition build to give it a go, you will not be disappointed, unless you prefer the passive PU playstyle…

Blind Optimism
Obviously I do see flaws in what has been introduced, and will not defend them, but for the time being why don’t we focus on the good stuff? I for one would hate for potential Mesmers to be turned away because of what they read in the forums.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, in case you didn’t:

TL;DR- Be more positive!

I have actually found interrupts to work very well against necros, halting strikes is usually enough but you can pick up the other traits if you wish, a lot of the necro skills have quite long channel times and are therefore easy to interrupt if you know what to look for, I wouldn’t bother trying to interrupt marks as you will only stop one and they will just cast another and cast the one you interrupted last, but once necros blow all their marks there is little reason to carry on using it as auto attack damage from staff is slow and not so good if the necro is a condition build.

Scepter and dagger is fairly easy to interrupt once you know what the casts look like, I recommend making a necro and playing them for a little bit to familiarise yourself with the cast times. Power builds are seriously crippled by our interrupts as they have frail defenses and ghastly claws/life siphon have such long cast times! If you can withstand deathshroud skills, do so, only interrupt if you can save one for after they come out of it, if a necro can’t inflict their conditions and their health drops too much, they are likely to go into deathshroud and heal right after they come out of it, you want to interrupt the heal as then they will really panic.

If you get feared break out of it anyway you can, stun breaks and condi-cleanses will do the trick, terror damage is too strong to just ignore. You will find that so long as you keep up the pressure and interrupt effectively, you won’t have too many conditions on you anyway.

Mantra of resolve is probably the best condi removal, along with cleansing conflagrations as mentioned above, the reason I say that is null field/phantasmal disenchanter are thwarted by area denial (wells) and aoe damage (certain wells and death shroud 4 and 5), respectively. If you are not a power based build, interrupts still work but you are probably better to take the traits out of chaos, as the might stacks will help you with condi damage, but going condi against necro is always going to be a risk, they have more ways of passing condis back than us.

I can understand why people don’t like mantras, it takes a lot of micro managing and if you can’t stand the thought of having that much more to think about you basically mesmerise yourself.

I happen to have ran mantras a couple of times and it is after the latest patch that I feel they are on point, the charge time is perfect, the effects are solid and balanced.

I won’t delve into my build but what I will say is I was originally going for an interrupt based build before deciding that both mantras and interrupt traits go hand in hand. Alone, the two might seem lacklustre I suppose.

I can lock someone down and burst them before they get a chance to heal, I run as many dazes and interrupts as I can without compromising myself. I see staff as a compromise for example, AoE dazing is pretty good yes, but how often will you see a foe actually sit in a chaos storm? Other staff abilities don’t benefit me much either.

It is important that you don’t take more than 2 utility mantras in my opinion, as you leave yourself too vulnerable otherwise. I usually take decoy, which brings me to my next point.

To charge or not to charge? I’ll start by saying you shouldn’t really be feeling the need to charge mantras in a fight, if you are burning down your charges (you should have 3 charges per mantra if you are running mantras, harmonious mantras makes all mantras 50% more effective which overshadows any other mantra trait) that quickly then you are doing something wrong, if its mantra of pain you want to charge..then…I don’t know what to say really, mantra of pain is great for initial burst if you want it but to then charge it after you have used it if you are still fighting is incredibly counter intuitive.

Mantra of Stability – isn’t really a favorite and I find it to be a bit of a glorified stun breaker, I’d rather use decoy instead. But using this in a fight you would possibly get through 1 or 2 charges before your enemy ran out of cc, all 3 if they were cc heavy and you didn’t feel like dodging. Using it before a cc requires a crystal ball and I wouldn’t expect anyone would be able to predict cc before it happened, unless it was obvious like a warrior hammer blast boom ground pound smash thingy, or pure luck.

Mantra of Resolve <3 It is my favorite condition removal, it is the most reliable condition removal we have access to in my opinion, in a mantra build I find this to be a better choice than the alternative of Mantra of Recovery with Mender’s Purity. This choice does free up a utility slot for a different mantra but it kind of forces you to heal if you get a particularly nasty condition, like confusion or terror-fear. The only time I’ve ever burned through 3 charges is either against a necro or p/d bleed thief ( sjgidnajvkencig bleed thieves, hate them hate them hate them but can kill them kill them kill them with properly timed dazes). By the time I’ve burned through all three it is usually clear who will win and/or flee.

Mantra of Recovery – The staple heal in a Mantra build, this is the crux of your survivability and if you are fleeing you can often get this charged and used to keep yourself going, the charge is the hard part, and if you can stealth or distort, do so! This is the only mantra I will charge in a prolonged fight. – Usually in stealth.

Mantra of Distraction <3 its sooooooooooo good in a build with interrupt traits, soo soooooo goooooood! You couldn’t burn through these charges if you tried because of the cooldowns, but if you time these along with weapon skill dazes and f3 you can keep someone locked down completely for around 5~7 seconds spaced over 15 seconds-ish with dazes and if you are skilled/lucky you will interrupt.

Mantras reward careful and thoughtful play and just spamming the charges will inevitably punish you for that behaviour, just like if you shatter at the wrong time or summon a phantasm when you are blinded/ have no LoS/ the target is invulnerable. If you are in dire situations, which does happen and in a mantra build you have far fewer active defenses, use your stealths or distortion and charge whatever it is you feel will get you through the fight. You do have staying power when you have MoR charges and using LoS to your advantage will really benefit this build. Openly charging mantras is, as stated above by a few people, a bad idea. I’de like to repeat that I can see why people don’t feel they are viable enough to have a build based around but I can’t say I agree with it, it works for me and coming from a shatter build I don’t feel any less useful or threatening. It is harder to play however.

TL;DR (Sorry!) Mantras are good if you like micromanaging, and are cool. Obfuscate. Disorient. Confuse!