Guild Wars 2

I…. have played so many games, man. In MMO’s alone, I went from Ultima Online, to Asheron’s Call, Dark Ages, the OTHER Dark Ages, 10six, Mechwarrior’s online thing, WoW, RIFTS, Final Fantasy, tried Everquest 2, a bunch of Sci-Fi MMO’s including both Star Wars Incarnations, City of Heroes, Mud’s and so on.

I think my MMO beginnings in Ultima Online and Asheron’s call are the biggest indicators out of the bunch of what I really want in a game – I got into those games to explore a big open community that was able to do some great things. In Ultima Online, the focus was just in becoming another role and going on whatever adventures you wanted, though the lack of restrictions led to a lot of terrible people ruining the community (by actually murdering everyone all the time), until they “fixed” that. In Asheron’s call, it was mostly about exploration, discovery, and events, which eliminated the “ingame societal” aspects of Ultima, for better or worse, but it had this huge game world to explore, spells that you could discover on your own (sort of like the crafting system in GW2), and it tried to hold onto some societal intricacies with an expansively large guild system.

I think Guild Wars 2 has been the only game I’ve played in recent memory to even try and recapture the feel of what MMO’s were originally like – I think I’ve been looking for that for a long time. Back when the internet was revolutionary to gaming, there was no sterile, homogenized formula to follow – Gaming companies didn’t even really have any idea of the golden rule of making online games; “If players can get away with something, they will do so.” There was just this idea – “Wouldn’t it be amazing if you could interact with a community of folks as a wizard/sword-mongering barbarian/whatever you want – and be an integral part of that fantasy?”

For the most part, these games throw away anything “integral” about ingame player input at all. Sure, you’re still a warrior or a wizard, but its a stolen, hollowed-out concept bereft of anything that makes that a cool thing. You’re usually just a tide of people spamming to death an unnecessarily large enemy with a giant pool of hitpoints, and adventure beyond that is pretty few and far between.

Guild Wars 2 puts some of the community and all of the exploration back into the game, for me. I compare it to Asheron’s Call, and that was one of my favorite games. Its pretty great to have an expansive universe to be a part of, a personal story, creative PVP combat, and a sense of “What am I going to do in this game today?” that doesn’t bring to mind four mini-game-like options (Like Capture The Flag, or Dungeon Runs, or A to B to C questing, or whatever other limited activity). I like that goals in this game can be long term or short term, and its very sandbox and self-motivated, for the most part. While I’m wary of some of the new additions, I don’t really feel like ascended gear threatens this concept so absolutely as some other folks, but I think it would be pretty terrible to be “locked” into the mini-game of dungeon-running like some theories have suggested might be on the horizon.

If I could really have anything at all added to Guild Wars 2, I’d just love to see something like player-run cities with their own diplomacy. I’ve seen this happen in some other games, and while it is complex, it seems the simplest way to reach back toward that sandbox concept of a fantasy “community” that was the inspiration for many of the first MMO’s. I think it would be fantastic if the later-story factions, like the Order of Whispers, could somehow be given over to player management in some compelling-but-not unbalancing way.

But I think GW2 is a great game that single-handedly puts something back into the industry that it had lost.

Sin.8174:

Lifelike.5862:

Ruby Red.4019:

1) 0
2) 0
3) 0
4) 0
5) 0

This is a FTP game paid expansions are the way to go imo not cobbled together gamebreaking “free” content. (I say 0 because they shouldn’t be used to bring in more exclusion and elitism)

The sad thing is, this game is already full of exclusion and elitism towards players who enjoy vertical progression, and it’s posts like yours which prove it.

elitists go both ways.

You deserve it. After all the things we’ve had to put up with vertical progression types…. we finally find a game that strays away from this model.. ONLY TO BE RUINED AGAIN.

I’m sick of vertical progression. You want it so bad?… Play a game that has it already built in.

I am starting to hate GW2 thanks to the ‘progression’ crowd.

No one deserves the intense closed-mindedness that elitism entails. I don’t think anyone set out to “ruin” anyone else’s experience, and finding a phantom crowd of “WoW locusts” to blame your problems on doesn’t help your case.

Einsof.1457:

what’s a toon? Just because you played disneys toon town doesn’t mean that CHARACTERS in other games are “toons.”

Ehh. I’m going to assume you don’t know this, otherwise you’re just antagonizing. “Toon” is a term more popularly used than “Avatar” or “Character” and simply means the same thing – Its not a Toon Town term, and circulates as the primary slang in most MMO’s out there (and thus the MMO community as a whole).

I didn’t like it either, at first, but it grows on you, I guess. Refuting the lingo now is not going to get anyone anywhere, I imagine.

The cost is actually 2000 gems, which is $25. I guess they decided to charge an additional $5 over the total you would have paid if you just got the deluxe version outright. I’m hoping that the deluxe upgrade on the marketplace goes on sale in the next few days.. I might be willing to pay something like $12.50 for the upgrade, personally, but not $25. >.>

Fortuna.7259:

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Not at all. Just because someone is still playing doesn’t mean they are loyal. They can just as easily be apathetic.

The loyal base being mentioned only had one MMO that served them. That made them very loyal. Guild Wars 2 could have a lot of flaws, and they would still happily stay for years, because it had what mattered to them. No longer. It takes a certain boneheaded move to turn that kind of loyalty against you, but it is possible.

I apologize for having asked this question and I don’t think I was appropriately adding to the discussion at hand, though I thank you for your input.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Please . . . don’t get into a system of trying to measure loyalty . . . THAT is something that never ends well because then you get people saying they’re the TRUE fans because of A, while a bunch of other people say THEY are the REAL fans because they oppose A.

They both care about the game, and disagree vehemently on one point. They are both loyal to the game, but not in agreement.

I apologize. I now recognize the bad taste in the question. Its only that I see two or three people acting like they’re the exclusive loyal playerbase and it flies in the face of logic to me. I’ve conceded before and I’ll concede again that there are some good points to be made about the criticism regarding changes inherent in the recent update, I suppose I’ve just made myself wary of all the heavy-handedness by reading these forums too long. I’ll delete the post, and I hope that no one will take the question personally.

I don’t work for Arena-Net, but I feel pretty confident informing you that you don’t get the digital upgrade for free due to already owning a copy. The sale is for folks who buy the digital deluxe copy during the sale at a reduced price (the equivalent of the non-deluxe price). Its just catchy wording to say “free upgrade,” its already confused a few people.

Predator.7321:

Does anyone think that the $20 more was worth it?
I think Mistfire wolf kinda sucks. I didn’t expect a super elite which would dominate everything, but I expected something that is a bit more worthwhile

I’m waiting until the upgrade goes on sale or something. … Hoping maybe this weekend. >.<

Narkosys.5173:

I also believe that every month will be a release of equip/slot and every 6 months a new tier.

Why do you believe this, good sir or madam?

CharrGirl.7896:

It’s evolving! Soon it will develop thumbs! Quick, kill it!

So long as it doesn’t learn to tame bears as mounts, we still have a fighting chance!

Lessee.. Advice… Guardians are way, way cooler than they seem at first glance, two-handed hammers are amazing, throw boulders at things whenever you get the chance, don’t forget to dodge, and always carry a towel.

Lucky Thirteen X.4210:

what i want to know is why half the price of the digital upgrade to current players, if they are giving out digital free to new subbers.

If you mean “why not cut the price?” I agree with you. There’s going to be a different sale every day, so I’ll wait and see. I really do want the digital deluxe just for the summon you get, but I probably won’t pay $25 for it… It would be pretty cool if it went on sale.

Were there any juveniles nearby?! I have to tame one!

I’ve just never been exposed to as many terrible analogies in my life. Those who are on the complaining side of this issue have brought up papayas, the government, cheeseburgers, and all sorts of scenarios that aren’t really very well compared to the situation to justify their arguments (although the papaya thing was fun, and the cheeseburger thing was less of a stretch).

I do believe that someone, after a few days, needed to post a thread like this. Now we have a few, and sadly, I doubt its gotten anywhere. Despite all the conspiracy theories (Nexon has a 15% stake and is telling everyone what to do!), terrible analogies (They promised me a papaya and then turned into the federal government!), displacement of blame (the locusts are here!), imagined promises (Marketing campaigns are never wrong!), exaggerated statistics (We can’t be wrong because a few thousand of us represent 99% of more than 2 million people!, very minor changes in gear are game-ending!), gross theories of entitlement (Let’s affect positive change by ruining the game’s well-deserved positive reputation! We couldn’t possibly be behaving selfishly!), and plain insulting (If you ain’t with us, you’re just to dumb to realize how righteous the cause is!).

There’s even a thread stating that if the devs address this at some future date and say “Well, we didn’t really believe ascended gear was vertical progression because the stats aren’t that great and make practically no difference.” that no one intends to believe them. It seems to me the most logical conclusion to come to. The philosophy of being much, much less gear-centric as other games of the genre is still very strongly intact, and like other people have pointed out already, Guild Wars One still exists. If they were looking to add to GW1’s gameplay, they might have made an expansion and not a sequel, right?

I don’t think anyone’s arguing that those who are upset by the changes don’t have a right to say so, but seldom has it been done sensibly. There’s even an attitude that anger is its own reason and is somehow, by itself, justified. No it isn’t. Anger’s got a reason and isn’t a worthy cause in and of itself. I don’t think anyone can make sense of an argument that simply states, “I don’t think you understand just how /angry/ I am about this!” as its own justification.

Actually, I don’t care if about any of that, I take it back. Just stop behaving like you’re the majority and that you should tank the game’s sales, and I’ll stop paying any attention. It would help if some of these analogies weren’t so strange, but I can live with that.

Space Cow.2431:

ArenaNet is being judged by the standards they built up for themselves.

You’re telling people to stop voicing reasonable concerns with a game that has blatantly gone against everything that was promised, a game that marketed itself on principles it has utterly disregarded.

Explain to me what good would it do for people to shut up and take it as if the problem had gone away? And how is any of that indicative of growing up?

I am thoroughly disgusted by this kind of attitude from consumers with far too much time and money on their hands not to care about the state of the industry. Problems need to be reported so that they may be fixed, and underhanded business tactics need to be exposed so that future gaming companies think twice before they screw over their playerbase.

I don’t think the op is suggesting that you don’t voice your concerns – But for the most part, there have been odd conspiracy theories, organized attempts to tank the game on other websites, and just lots of completely misplaced anger and blatantly illogical statements.

None of this is about me, of course, but when I first began to read statements from concerned parties about the new updates to the game and addition of a tier system, I too was faintly concerned with them… And then everything flew so boldly out of proportion that it became immensely obvious that a lot of these arguments were no longer based in reason, but some kind of rage that went way beyond what the situation called for and was entirely encouraged by a certain minority of the game’s playerbase.

Interestingly enough, to my own sense of morbid interest if no one else’s, a lot of the most upset gamers complain rabidly about warcraft players and warcraft ideas, which is easy enough to understand, but then they join warcraft players in tanking the game’s reviews for the same reason – its not the game they wanted to play, so anything good about it simply doesn’t exist and, to them, the game deserves a one-star review out of spite.

Some of the statements and threads that have been on these forums since the patch have been a little bizarre and demanding – not just demanding of the developers, but demanding on the rest of the playerbase to concede the game that the minority of players want. Even after getting refunds, some of these former players have stuck around just to remind everyone how angry they are.

I think Arena Net has received your message – And I think they’re a stand-up group. I’m not going to be upset if they implement changes to try and keep you as a customer, but if that announcement never comes, I would have to question the integrity of a decision to stick around and make sure everyone knows you’re still quite very upset with the state of things, especially if efforts to ruin the game’s sales, and thus the future community of the game for those of us who still enjoy it, continue.

There once dawned an age of enlightenment. Gamers were free to frolick, unhindered, and rightly so through the one game to end them all, never allowed for one moment to be discontent – for their hearts were pure and their adventures were legendary.

But what comes?! Hark! Upon pressing ‘O’ one finds a shadow of doubt, of relentless evil. At its fore, bathed in the shadows of deceit and wickedness, one vile creature exists with one sole purpose – To consume your hard-earned dollars! His name.. His name will go down in infamy, but is seldom spoken aloud. Baron … Uhh… Baron Von Dark Mcbloodfist!

Think about it, my fellow adventurers! If you choose to optionally to support your game, you are supporting Baron Von Dark Mcbloodfist! No one would support him, he’s very evil! And bad. And also a huge drag at parties!

Paid for by the Tyrian Association in Support of Subscription Fees.

Wolfend.5287:

So arena net receiving harsh critique, perhaps they should stop using the internet. If they hadn’t censored so liberally, we’d be viewing several hundred ‘harassment’ post, a veritable wall starting at page one. Add another several hundred post for all the banned players.

I think you might have an inflated idea of how many people are this upset versus the total player base. I’ll concede that there are a significant number of very loud voices in opposition of the recent additions. More than two million copies of Guild Wars 2 have been sold – I’ll go ahead and grant the estimate that there are more than a few hundred of you very angry about the recent patch (and still sticking around). Even if that number were three thousand, or five thousand, when compared to the portion of the playerbase still content with the game, you would represent a small segment of the playerbase. As many as 50 of you are actively trying to tank the game on the website where I generally shop for such things. Some folks have moved on, and I regret that we lost them, but if you happen to be a person who’s remained behind thinking you’re going to get what you want by intentionally raining on everyone’s parade, it just doesn’t work that way.

I’m not even a supporter of the new patch, to be honest. I doubt I’ll be a big fan of the new dungeons. I just have other content I’m willing to be pleased with, and seeing as how I have no subscription fee, I’m more happy to wait for all the new rapid-fire content to continue entertaining me. That was a big selling point of the game, after all, it was going to have content added often.

Wolfend.5287:

by all means, justify censorship.

By all means, justify harassment.

Wolfend.5287:

Another, ‘you don’t qualify if you don’t think like me’ thread. Sorry, but the whole ‘me’ thing is wearing thin.

You’re the only one in this thread displaying the kind of logic you’re referring to. Your nameless movement has done everything in its power to tank the game, then you wonder why organized review bombs to create an internet-wide smear campaign are being deleted from these forums, so folks rage on about that. Meanwhile, I’ve seen the complainers talk about all the “WoW Locusts” asking ArenaNet for more endgame content and thus ruining it for the “everyone” you perceive yourselves to be, but I never saw the players asking for endgame content say anything that remotely sounded like “Do things /MY/ way, or we’re going to scream about it and do everything we can to take over the community forums, deface this game’s sales, and insist this game is dying to everyone who’ll listen because we don’t want anyone else to buy it.”

GADefence.5634:

We all post constructive feedback. Our feedback is take it out. It is not our fault our feedback differs from yours.

There’s a big difference between “constructive feedback” and “demands.” We’ve seen plenty of threads that pretty much boiled down to “We’ll get what we want or we’ll hurt the game every way we can! Take that Arena-Net (and anyone else still playing the game)!” These are not constructive debates.

The complainers are getting a feel-good feeling from trying to ruin the game for everyone else, be it here on the forums or on other websites where the price of the game has been steadily falling. In lieu of getting what they want, they will settle for destroying the game for everyone else, and they want sympathy for this behavior because adding new gear to the endgame hurt their feelings. This is “Occupy Arena-Net.” No one knows what they expect to get from the complaining, but there’s a sense of camaraderie for their frustrations here, and so long as they’re causing damage, they’re “fighting the good fight.” I don’t think many of them realize they’re simply trying to ruin the game for everyone else. To many it must just seem like they’re “spreading the truth,” or their very decided version of it, and they’re simply hurting Arena-Net, who they perceive to have lied to them.

Sequels aren’t supposed to be just like the last game you played. I read a very good article a while back that described how the “hardcore” gamer mentality destroys innovation in the industry because everyone expects that they’re somehow just going to get a shinier, better version of the last [Game of the Same Genre] they played, and the expectation is nearly impossible to fulfill – and not to mention, if every game were just the last game of its kind with a few additions and prettier graphics, game selection would be terrible, innovation would be non-existent, and being a gamer would be a hobby for the dull.

You are my hero.

The power creep in this game is small. I’m fairly certain that was what was always intended. It seems to anyone that isn’t obsessing about taking a marketing campaign super-literally would assume such. Power creep existed before ascended, and it was clear to a lot of players, intelligent people (not locusts, whatever that is supposed to mean), that future updates would install this miniscule bit of power creep into endgame.

A lack of endgame content was what killed SWtoR, for the most part. There were players who found fully-voiced story to be annoying, players who didn’t like the PVE or the PvP, but for the most part, getting to the end and then having nothing to motivate players was what put the game on the track to F2P.

Guild Wars 2 is the best MMO out there whether or not you enjoy power creep, in my opinion. I think there’s such a vocal group of upset people on the forums who assume they’re in majority. I’ve not seen the ghost towns that people keep talking about, I’m not seeing enough people quit where I notice any change in event participation.

dalendria.3762:

I don’t plan to post on retailer sites because I bought directly from Arenanet. Reason I am posting my displeasure here.

However, I think it is good that people are telling other customers about the change. There is so much pre-patch marketing out there about “no gear stat progression.” Potential customers need to know that they have abandoned that. If they still want to buy it, then good. If not, then they good. It saves them from buying a game and finding out it is not what they thought.

On the otherhand, I bought this game and for the most part, it was what I thought it would be until 11/15. Now, they have shown me that I am not a “dedicated player,” a valued customer. The product has changed and no longer supports the approach I like. But they got my box sales and gem shop money.

How would you feel if the product you love is radically changed after purchase?

I didn’t start playing MMO’s with GW2. I remember playing Ultima Online back in the day. That game, for its time, was both great and infuriating. It was so cut-throat when I played that your friends would kill you for your gear 3-6 months in, and being a “red named” murderer meant you could probably accrue some fame for yourself.

I spent my entire time on that game obsessed with becoming a bounty hunter, killing the “badguys” because I didn’t like how I got treated in the beginning. And, after all my effort, when I was finally able to take on the really skilled player-killers, the game format changed and everyone suddenly played in a “safe” dimension where I could no longer collect bounties, or get any of my nerd revenge.

I was younger then, but this drove me absolutely nuts. The whole purpose of my playing the game, as obsessive and completely inane as it was, was taken away. The “badguys” got to kill me – a lot – and I didn’t get to kill them.

I tell you what I didn’t do. I didn’t try to ruin the game for everyone else just because I didn’t like a patch. = |

Derk.3189:

Your analogy is wrong. 3 months later the Papaya gave you AIDS is what this is equivalent to. You bought a Papaya, you never asked for the AIDS.

This is a public service announcement. You can’t get AIDS from papayas. Probably. Paid for by The Papaya Society for a Better Tyria.

NaughtyProwler.8653:

I bet when you go to Subway and someone puts Mayo on your sub, but you totally asked for Ranch (NOT known as mayo!) you are just like “whatever brah, I can dig it” and go on your way.

Well you know what? Sometimes I don’t want mayo. I want ranch. The sandwich said “Chicken Bacon Ranch” not “Chicken Bacon Mayo”, so why give me the mayo Subway lady? I did not ask for the mayo friend. I even said “hold the mustard”, but I got the mustard too. So now I got me some Chicken Bacon Mayo and Mustard. This is just not the sandwich I ordered friend.

So, in this analogy, you’re the kind of person who, upon receiving the wrong condiment, screams bloody murder for 6 days in ordered to ruin everyone else’s meal and then, when thrown out of the establishment after a great deal of patience is afforded you by the staff for your complaining, you organize an effort to put Subway out of business dishonestly?

No. You are not that person. No one is. So why try to be that way?

You know, having such an anger-attack over gear that is only slightly better than what’s already out makes little sense. The game already has a gear treadmill, now it just also has an endgame.

The most confusing part of all of this complaining has been the idea that if you don’t get to have exactly what you want, you’re going to go onto review sites and try to ruin the game so that no one else has any fun either. You complain about the psychology of selfishness that gear gating represents, but then you choose to break away from the community you purport to defend and try and ruin it for everyone.

I don’t know what’s more difficult to understand – behaving this way over a few optional added features that are a miniscule difference in comparison to what’s already in the game, or making threads about how you’re going to “review bomb” the game and assuming no one’s going to point out to these sites that this is going on.

Ganzo.5079:

lol nice idea to bridge wich gap?

Exotics vs legendary was a time gap, so whats the mean of increasing stats, and the shift of legendary stats above in the near future?

The statistics gap and the effort gap. Legendary gear will be the best kind of gear you can possess, unless multiple media outlets are wrong on the subject? (If I’m confused about this, please let me know, I hate to be misinformed.) The leap in stats and effort to receive an Exotic vs. a Legendary item will be significant. This has been an item on the table for a long time. This isn’t a surprise. That anyone could feel ambushed by ascended gear, which seeks to offer a more casual experience (though it has not been fully implemented) than Legendary gear seems to be illogical.

I’m sure Anet didn’t envision this would upset so many people. Exotics and Legendary gear have been on the table forever. They got the idea to be nice and bridge the gap between Exotics and Legendary gear sets, and everyone has a massive cow.

Its been stated multiple times that Ascended gear will be available through WvW play and everyone’s still crying about dungeon grinds without even giving the game a chance to fully implement the mechanic. Three months in and there’s already massive cries from a crowd that was ferociously loyal to the game last week to down the game on metacritic and amazon? Are you serious?

When I first began reading this thread, I thought there were some interesting points, but this massive outrage based primarily on speculation and conspiracy theories has me doubtful for the future of the game due to community fickleness, not because I don’t want Anet to shut up and take my money. Though there have been some good points to be made about the psychology of “gear checks,” the unavailability of people to run content that shouldn’t have become outdated 3 months in, and whatnot, its just been a couple of days people. Of course most of the player-base is still fiddling around with the new content. In case you haven’t noticed, this game is all about rapid-fire updates – You’re going to see another one real soon!

I hope when they fully implement the ascended system, when ascended gear is getting thrown at you for everything you decide to do, including PVP, all the people who helped ruin this game’s rep on amazon and who left their guilds as such a knee-jerk reaction to make a point about how betrayed they feel have some trouble getting back into their guilds. = |