Guild Wars 2

John.5732:

I politely request that Anet make a new Ranger CDI thread. To start the thread, Anet should summarize the previous thread (yes, all 67 pages please), including the ideas that are feasible, liked, and possible. This would help guide discussion into fruitful territory. Next, I would ask that Anet allocate an appropriate amount of staff to respond and collaborate with posters. Looking at the size of the previous thread, likely 3 staff members would be needed. This would go a great deal in making that 67 post thread not feel like a waste of time.

Really? You think that CDI fiasco was entirely Anet’s fault?
…Let me ask you all something: Who decided that Allie’s statement that permastow/aspects would not happen (at least not immediately) and continued to push for it? Who devolved the thread into a meaningless discussion about pets vs. permastow?

I’m not white-knighting Anet here—there’s definitely things that are broken with GW2, and that thread could’ve used more support, but honestly, so many people on this forum are so passionate about their race/class/build/etc. that it turns into anger. The reason that thread derailed was partially due to a lack of support, yes; but we certainly didn’t help put it back on track.

I saw a few people calling for others to use the format and offer other ideas. Most refused. They said, “We can’t talk about something else because it revolves around the pet!” Fair enough. But who was forcing the argument about pets vs. permastow? Why did that entire kittenstorm of borderline flaming and lack of productivity even have to happen? If there’s nothing to talk about, then we should’ve calmed down and bumped the thread until someone answered.

You know why that thread received little to no collaboration? Because they didn’t expect to have an average of 3-5 pages added per day. They didn’t expect one person to have to wade through properly formatted ideas as well as a useless argument to find gems. Poor Allie had to wade through all 67 pages of that. Sure, the ranger is a class that needs a lot of work, and maybe they should’ve anticipated the sheer volume of posts, but on the other hand we should’ve realized that Allie or anyone would have a tough time dealing with all our posts and tried to keep new posts as new ideas only

TL;DR: Yeah, Anet does some things sometimes that hinder the game, or that we don’t like. But that CDI thread didn’t need an argument about a topic that Allie already gave Anet’s opinion on. We complain that we never got a clear answer, but the reality is, we didn’t get the single clear answer THAT WE WANTED. We’re blaming Anet for the entirety of that CDI when it was OUR fault that we chose to focus on a useless argument instead of trying to keep things civil and simply give Allie time to respond. Sure, maybe other CDI’s got more attention; but it’s also partially on us to make sure we follow the rules of the thread and keep it from getting out of control.

Sorry if this sounds rude or accusatory, but what kittened me off the most about the CDI wasn’t the sparse responses, it was the people who refused to let aspects and permastow die after she said it was off the table.

I’m levelling a new character, and usually I do the Personal Story up to Retake Claw Island to help with this. Well, I got to the With A Single Step quest and…well, Lion’s Arch went through a little cosmetic update, it seems.

Here are some things I noticed about the instance that took me by surprise, as I hadn’t remembered them existing during previous PS runs:

1. Everything is broken and on fire.
2. There is what I can only assume is a teleporter of some sort or a giant hair dryer in the commons.
3. That statue is broken again.
4. There’s what seems to be a gigantic drill sitting in the harbor (drilling for quaggans?)
5. The poor citizens seem completely unaware of the change, as if nothing was happening.

I can’t imagine how Desiny’s Edge didn’t notice all this. Why aren’t we fighting that drill as a team?

/sarcasm

In all honesty, I want to know what’s even going on here. When Anet mentioned having an instance free of baddies to do the LA personal story in, I expected it to be…well….trapped in time, subject to looking like the old, non-fiery Lion’s Arch. This isn’t so much of a complaint as it is…curiosity. I legitimately want to know why the instance reflects current LA rather than what it would’ve been when Destiny’s Edge met. I didn’t see any other topics on this either, so I felt like sharing.

*Edit: Guys, this is so sad. Tybalt is trying SO HARD to sell these apples, but everyone who would buy them is dead or on fire. This isn’t fair, Anet. How could you kill such a profitable apple selling business? It’s so hot in Lion’s Arch that the apples have turned into pies!

Part 3: Too All-Around to be Good at Anything

When I’m playing my necro, I find it easy to pick the trait lines I need for the skillset I want. I’m going 10/30/0/30/0 and plan to use minions and wells. There, easy. But for my ranger, it’s not easy. Some skills can’t be combined without sacrificing certain traits for others, which isn’t what other classes face. I think as an overall proposal, please make it so that traits fit with the stats the people using them would want! For example, Spirits are fine, but traps should be in Wilderness Survival. That said, I have some ideas on how to improve specific skills (ones that I have used, want to use, or use frequently):

Overall: Allow pet skills to reach the ranger, even those provided by shouts (like the ones I’m about to suggest below). Don’t punish rangers for using range!
Search and Rescue: In addition to its present effect, add revive speed for allies (possibly regen too).
Protect Me: Scrap the effect and change to “Protect Us”—pets run to a target location and form a dome around them that reflects projectiles and provides protection on allies.
Sic Em: Scrap the effect and change to provide might (5s) and swiftness to allies.
Signets: Give the active effect to rangers first and trait for pets.
Spirits: No trait to have them follow, they do automatically. Replace the trait with something more useful.
Piercing Shots: No trait for this, make all shots pierce by default. As others have said, Warrior arrows pierce automatically, thief arrows bounce, let ranger shots pierce too, as we are “unparalleled archers”.
Eagle Eye/Quick Draw: Combine these, they would work so well together. Also allow Eagle Eye to work on short bows.
The Entire Beastmastery Line I know there are rangers who use it, but I see no appeal. I can get my pets some buffs, but they aren’t particularly useful. I suggest changing this trait line to be more beneficial to the pet, like providing stat increases and different abilities like the other trait lines offer the ranger. Some people have suggested that the pets have their own set of trait trees, which would be awesome, but maybe this would be a good start to see how it could work.

Risks Again, balance. To me, and I’m sure others, all of this seems like it would make the ranger on par with other classes, which it would, but I’m sure there are some suggestions that would be OP.

Part 2: Rangers Should be Good at Range!
The Longbow: It should be the ranger’s signature weapon, and we should excel at it more than warriors. I propose the following skills:
LB #1: Make this grant vulnerability and/or confusion or bleeding at 1000+ range, just vulnerability at 500-1000, and just damage at <500 range. More reward for being far away, but also increases effectiveness. Also make arrows fire faster.
LB #2: I like this as-is.
LB #3: Why was this ever changed to stealth? I rarely use this skill anymore, and only in select instances. Make this skill “Enfeebling Arrow” and inflict weakness and minor poison.
LB #4: A major complaint about rangers is spamming Point Blank Shot. I propose that this skill just needs to be turned from a knockback into a knockdown—would synergize well with pets and allies alike.
LB #5: I like barrage, but I propose a more “rangery” skill, like “Poison Barrage” where it creates a poison cloud field in the same radius. Also, let us be able to move during the casting, otherwise we lose out on mobility.

The Shortbow
SB #1-2: Fine as-is
SB #3: There are few instances when using a short bow that I feel the need to evade straight backwards. Make this skill dodge roll to one side instead perhaps, or just make it inflict a condition, like burning.
SB #4-5: Fine as-is.

Risks Obvious balance issues, but I will say this: I don’t think adding these conditions will be terrible, in my opinion, ranger weapons are pretty condition deprived as it is compared to other classes.

Game Mode PvE (but applicable to all modes)

Proposal Overview:
Bear with me, I’ve been reading since page one and have some ideas for three different aspects, so this may end up in several posts! I’m super excited that the devs are working on rangers and can’t wait for the results—I’ve had two 80s just because I wanted to swap my human for an Asura and ranger is still my favorite class. I’ve been reading this thread since post one, and I’ve come up with ideas for three of the most problematic aspects of the ranger class: Pets, Bows, and Customization (Read: Utilities, Traits, and Skills). I think to be safe, I’ll split this up into three parts with possible risks at the bottom of each. Note: All pet proposals assume AI won’t be fixed at least not for the foreseeable future

Part One: Pets Are Friends, Not AOE Fodder
The problem: Pets have little survivability, can’t hit for beans in melee, and draw aggro unintentionally. Pets are meant to be our companions and help us fight, not act like a ball and chain. That said, I believe that pets are also mortal beings and it should cause a little bit of pain when they “die”. Not to say, of course, that rangers should be punished for bad AI, so read on:
Proposed Solution: First, give rangers 85-90% of their damage and let pets take up 10-15% only. It’ll reduce the amount rangers rely on pets for dps, but still let them make a difference. Second, reduce pet damage from AOE by 75-80% and make pets immune to AOE out of combat. Some people suggested a dodge mechanic, but this is risky. Controlling the pet separately means one more thing to deal with in battle and dodging simultaneously might not even work with timing. Third, give pets a boost to survivability, either a percentage of the ranger’s HP or something, I’m not entirely sure what that would look like. Fourth, give melee pets a small, but larger hit radius, so they can effectively chase enemies down. Also provide a small swiftness boon when the F1 button is pressed.
The problem: The pet interface doesn’t allow for good pet management
Solution:I liked someone’s idea that pets should toggle attack/stow on F1, use their special on F2, adopt an aggressive stance on F3 (higher offense, lower defense), and adopt a defensive stance on F4 (higher defense, lower offense). For F5, maybe give the pet it’s own healing skill or some survivability option? I think that’s all for pets, so I’ll move on to the second part.

Risks
I don’t see any beyond balancing issues, or maybe I’m forgetting something. Other than that, I think these are viable options.

I think the legendary requirements should be reevaluated altogether, personally. There’s no reason why it should be so heavily based in one game mode or another, and quite honestly, the little bit of WvW included doesn’t add any challenge at all. I want a legendary, but when I finally craft one, I’ll feel more relieved that I finally made it rather than a sense of true accomplishment. Just my two cents, but I think if implemented properly, it could ease a lot of the tension between WvW and PvE players.

A player named Crespus and I actually came up with a similar thing before the patch. In summary, our idea was that the Pale Tree is connected to Mordremoth, possibly a freed champion, like Glint, and that the Nightmare Court are the “natural” state of the sylvari, the Dream being a shield provided by the Pale Tree. No telling how right or wrong we (or anyone is), but there are a lot more clues in this patch.

What we know:
Ceara hopped around for a while after rejecting the Dream and Nightmare, seeking freedom. She eventually settled in with the Inquest, particularly Omadd.
Ceara saw something in Omadd’s machine that literally broke her mind. She emerged as Scarlet Briar and began amassing an army with various skills and talents.
She stole the watchwork knights, possibly to power her Marionette. She lured the Flame Legion and Dredge together for their machinery and magic, presumably for her drill. She allied Nightmare Court and Krait for that toxin that she has now mutated beyond Marjory’s antitoxin, but we don’t know its purpose yet. She allied the Aetherblades for their sheer power, particularly over the skies.

What we can speculate:
Based on Scarlet’s Lair, we can see a variety of things. One, the drill. Two, the scarlet briar choking out what is most likely the Pale Tree. Three, a painting of a dragon that looks eerily similar to early concept art of Mordremoth, or is at least too “leafy” to look like Primordus or Kralkatorrik. Four, a list of alliances, failed and successful, with one alliance that we have yet to see. To me, it looked like a humanoid creature (the Forgotten, mayhaps?) and the Inquest.

In the flashback for this update, we can see the process Scarlet has followed. The alliances all lead up to a big attack, which Marjory and Kasmeer believe to be on Lion’s Arch, but why? Why do this again? What purpose would it serve her? We’re not taking into account Scarlet’s one hatred through all of this: the Pale Tree. Not to mention we don’t know what she has on Caithe. Marjory supposes that Caithe has an interest in the Nightmare Court, but why?

Personally, I think Scarlet is targeting the Pale Tree—or, perhaps something beneath it. Something big. Something dragon-like. I think the sylvari are tied in some way to Mordremoth, and I think he is the next dragon that we see in-game.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

As I said before, crafting a Legendary was initially supposed to show that you had mastery, or at least some participation, in all aspects of the game. This requirement is long overdue.

If a player hates WvW, I feel sorry for them, because they won’t be making a Legendary Weapon, and possibly Armor in the future. But at the same time, those who do participate and help their servers in WvW will be much deserving of their crafted Legendaries.

But the point some people are making is that they don’t help their servers. For my part, I try to, but I usually just go about my map completing business. It isn’t fair to WvW that they’re being forced out of a queue by people who don’t want to be there and who (with exceptions, definitely) don’t help out.

The problem is, gaining a legendary doesn’t currently show mastery of any kind. The whole WvW should be required argument becomes a little contradictory in that, if it’s supposedly so easy to get what you need from WvW without encountering a single player to kill, then we haven’t mastered anything now have we? Unless you count the same activities we do in PvE “mastery” just because they were done in WvW, but that makes less sense than a polar bear in a sweater.

Let’s begin by (hopefully) agreeing that Legendary weapons should be challenging to obtain, not some grind fest. That said, I realize there will be some grinding, regardless. But what exists now isn’t challenging at all.

Now, my idea of a legendary weapon is something that existed in the past, some weapon wielded by a great warrior but was lost to time. I’m not sticking too religiously to this concept as all players have access to them, but bear with me:

I think there needs to be some material indigenous to WvW and to PvE that cannot be obtained in the other. Additionally, you would need to complete the Personal Story up to the point where you are initiated into an Order. After that, you will have a new questline, one that will lead you to your legendary once you hit 80.

Once you hit 80, you are beckoned to open the Gate to the Mists. This requires 500 of the WvW tokens and 500 of the PvE tokens, which are then crafted into keys for the gate. However, you need Master Craftsman for these, and for WvWers, there should be better ways to obtain materials, or a system with WvW specific materials separately.

Once you make the keys, you can enter the Mists, a true mix of PvE and WvW, where you can opt out of the PvP aspect. If you do, however, champions will be the normal mobs, and champions will be legendaries. No normal mobs, no vets, no elites. However, they should all be solo-able, albeit extremely difficult to kill and require lots of coordination with skills. You might even need to try 10, 15 times before you finally beat it. It would at least come close to mirroring the PvP aspect since human players are far more skilled than random moas in Brisban Wildlands.

You need to complete this map. The achievement for Exploration would be “Mist Cartographer” or some such title, and Been there, Done that would be something PvE related only. Once you complete the map, a new area opens, sort of like a dungeon, but again: solo-able.

This is where you find your legendary. You have to fight through more mobs (or players) and complete a series of story-like quests related to the weapon. Each one would have a different looking dungeon based on the weapon’s looks.

But this isn’t the end. You still need to research the weapon before you can wield it. This means getting the Been there, Done that achievement for PvEers and getting an equivalent combination of WvW achievements for WvWers (sorry, I’m not too familiar with these!). Maybe certain quests teach you a little history about the weapon, or at the very least, there are little places hidden around Tyria and WvW that tell you its history, and those would be required places to find.

Maybe it doesn’t seem like a good idea, maybe I’m missing some key concepts, and by all means, give feedback on it, suggest better options. I know it’s not the best thing in the world, but I think at the very least it makes things less heavy on PvE for WvWers and less WvW for PvEers, and that was the intent of this brainstorming.

TL;DR: I’m not against WvW; I’m against this rift that exists between PvE and WvW because of the unfairness being felt on both sides, and I wish obtaining legendaries was both more challenging and less dependent on both game modes.

Oh joy, more mindless tasks to accomplish in pursuit of a legendary. Now I get to gather laurels and/or murder NPCs for some useless WvW ranks, sure glad I knew about this before the update.

…oh wait.

Seriously though, this couldn’t have been communicated? I can see why people are kittened off—it’s not because of the requirement, it’s because of the way Anet sneaked it into the patch and left us to figure it out for ourselves. Sure glad I was saving that bank slot!

Before I get hate from WvWers who might be too quick to say that I don’t deserve a legendary then, I’m in the process of crafting one, and I’ll get the requirements for it. I’m not upset about that. I’m upset because I feel like Anet was literally and deliberately hiding this for whatever reason, maybe out of fear of threads like this, who knows.

Now that that’s out of the way: I don’t mean for this post to be more hate against Anet. I want it to be something constructive about legendaries and how they should work. They shouldn’t work how they are now, and they shouldn’t even require as much PvE grinding as they do, because it is true that there’s unfairness on both sides as far as requirements go.

I proposed an alternative that would hopefully make both sides happy, but it was ignored and buried. So I’ll try it again, but in a separate post below.

As someone who’s gotten two rangers to 80 simply because I wanted a different race, I can say (or hope at least) that I can classify myself as one of the better ranger players. I’ve also got an ele and a necro at 80 but nothing quite has the same feel of sicking your wolf on an enemy and watching them fall face down in the dirt.

Only time I failed a platform was when I spawned alone on top of three red rings of death with no time to respond. Every other time I’ve been watching the “preferred” classes struggle to even get their champ to half health. An exaggeration of course, since not every platform has bad players. Besides that, my pet actually held a boss over its own mines while I was downed and rezzing myself! Usually a low toughness pet won’t even cause a problem and if you suspect a ranger might be inexperienced just ask if they need help. No need to be a kittenhat about it.

Crapgame.6519:

Interesting point but this is a glass half full half empty argument for either side (I’m not biased). But let me tilt the argument if you will. Have you ever looked at lets say the WvW only player who feels that the developers solely focus on PvE?

PvE gets bi-weekly (give or take) content updates. They get seasonal content. They get more opportunities for loot and achievement points. Almost everything tilts in the favor of PvE when compared to equal time spent in WvW all things being equal.

If you’re playing GW 2 solely for this kind of content, you’re doing it wrong.

PvEers get the majority of the content because GW 2 is primarily a PvE game. If not, it would be more akin to the types of MMOs where you can fight other players in the overworld, but the game is largely cooperative. That’s why PvP and WvW have their own little sections.

Now, I’m not saying that PvPers and WvWers shouldn’t get new content. I’d be all for having a duel option in the main game like some people have been suggesting—as long as I’m able to politely decline and not get chewed out for it. I plan to try WvW completion because I want a legendary, but I won’t set foot into WvW afterwards, and that’s okay. Some people will find they like it, and that’s okay too. The idea is, let people play however they want to and add enticements in the overworld itself for PvEers that they can decline if they don’t want to participate.

I know people are going to come back with the same old song and dance of “Well, you don’t have to participate in WvW completion.” The point isn’t that we don’t have to, it’s that we [/b]shouldn’t[/b] have to. Honestly, I feel more like ]b] I’m[/b] invading the WvW arena more than if some PvP elements were introduced to the overworld.

Like I said, PvE dueling options with the ability to decline would be okay in my book. Lure us into WvW by coming to us—honestly, for people like me, the best way to entice me into something I wouldn’t normally try is to let me encounter it somewhere and want to see what it’s all about.

So much yes! I said this before, and I’ll say it again: Just let us do something! I know the event is only up for two weeks, and I know people have already beaten it, even in overflow, and we few in Devona’s Rest even got 4/5 chains down at one point, but…it’s not fun for the people who, like you said, don’t know the tricks, or aren’t built for damage, or don’t have the best gear who are just trying to enjoy the game. People are already becoming discouraged with the event and have stopped trying (maybe poor judgment on their part, but that’s not what this is about).

Please just make it a tad more balanced? I love this event—I think it’s the best LS produced since Bazaar of the Four Winds, and certainly the only one I’ve felt the desire to play actively since I really got into the mechanics of the game. I regret missing Flame and Frost and the beginning of the Molten Alliance, and I regret not delving more into Four Winds, and I really, really want to see this LS arc work!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m sure AG will also organize something for this at some point. But I dislike the overall design of it all. We were standing there, watching players trying to place kegs at the wurm, only to realize that the wurm instantly lost its stacks. So you pretty much needed to coordinate about 20 people to drop their kegs simultaneously, with that horrendous frame rate going on. It was a futile effort. And even if we had made it, the other wurms would have failed. Look at the screenshot. Not a dent in any of the Wurm’s health. This is ridiculous. And if that wasn’t hard enough, it also has a bloody timer! Are we not allowed to do these events without Team Speak? Last time I checked, Team Speak was not one of GW2’s features.

And why would anyone want to do this event after completing it once for their server?

Oof, Cobalt. Judging by the fact that your screenshot sums up my own experience with it, I’d hate to see what the other wurms’ mechanics are. Honestly, unless you’re on Team Speak, getting 20 people to coordinate keg explosions isn’t going to happen easily, and I agree with you: Team Speak isn’t supposed to be a GW 2 feature. Didn’t stop some people in our group from pretending it should be, but, that’s another can of wurms.

I want to be fair to Anet: I like the ideas behind both of these new bosses. I like having these three different wurms to fight as a huge group and I like the teamwork behind the Marionette—I actually really love doing Marionette runs. It’s just the execution that’s off. Fix that, and we’ve got some nice new events.

There’s such a simple fix for it: Just make it so people can attack the champs on other people’s platforms instead of just standing around like “Hurr durr, dat looks like a nice fight over dere!”

I assume it’d be easier to do that then to fix the balancing issue (I could be wrong), but it wouldn’t even be that broken. Any ranged people on the other platforms can fire away and if we’re taking down power generators, it would make sense that the barriers between platforms could potentially be broken so melee people could join in, yes? Make it so that only people on adjacent platforms can join the fray. That way we aren’t just watching as victory slips through our grasp because of poor balancing.

*Edit: I think the friggin NPCs are counted in the balancing too. I was on a platform with four others and we whooped our champ. I look to the left and who do I see but three poor dudes fighting the champ and Marjory getting flung like a ragdoll. I REALLY hope she wasn’t included in the equation, because that’s just suck.

Another item I thought of: This is Konig’s response to some ideas about Sylvari corruption:

Side note:
The main reason why I don’t affiliate the Pale Tree with this all is threefold:
1. Malyck shows no signs of being like the Nightmare Court which, by definition of the Pale Tree being a dragon champion turned good like the all-too-common hypothesis claims, would be the “natural sylvari.”
2. While I believe the Dream of Dreams is being used by Mordremoth to spread his corruption, the White Stag proves that the Dream of Dreams is not unique to sylvari, and Malyck proves that not all sylvari are tied to the Dream of Dreams.
3. There are too many things not tied to the Pale Tree being corrupted (spiders, wurms, treants, grubs).

1. We know almost nothing about Malyck. He seems to be a glitch in the system, unknown to both the Nightmare Court and the Pale Tree. In fact, the Nightmare Court seems to herald him as the Harbinger, given that he has no access to the Dream. If anything, Malyck seems to be a natural-born “Soundless”, but who knows why this happened? It doesn’t disprove the fact that the Pale Tree might be a minion of Mordremoth, given that it’s just one Sylvari born out of the system. Knowing why Malyck turned out the way he did would require knowing more about how the Pale Tree creates Sylvari.
2. I think this is a matter of interpretation. The Stag, Bercillak, and the Shield of the Moon are all symbols present in the Dream that fuel your personal quest, but that doesn’t mean they come from the dream. Since the Pale Tree has absorbed knowledge for 250 years, then she is still doing this, presumably, and imparts some of this knowledge on her young. It seems to be implied that this is how the Sylvari gain knowledge, but if she is only the dream’s caretaker, as she says, how is this knowledge regulated? If it isn’t, then wouldn’t the Sylvari awaken with far more knowledge than they have?
3. Well, yes, there are. The Pale Tree isn’t a dragon itself, it’s a minion at most and just a tree at the least. Corruption doesn’t derive from champions, it derives from the dragons.

Whew, there’s a nice comprehensive argumentation. I think I understand how the quote system works better too, after all that!

To answer your question, I think upsetment derives from the fact that a lot of your arguments seem to take little pieces and pick at them without giving thought to the theory as a whole. For example, your argument concerning the Pale Tree doing a “terrible job” at creating corrupted Sylvari doesn’t keep in mind the fact that the theory is supposing that the Tree is a free will dragon champion. Usually, argumentation concerning a theory disagrees or agrees based on the parameters set by the theory, not by external factors. Those are used as evidence to the contrary, but ignoring or not thinking about the parameters just makes it seem like you aren’t paying attention to what the theory is trying to say. That’s all, not trying to be rude, just putting in my own two cents.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “The Pale Tree plays a central role in Scarlet’s story thus far.”

No it doesn’t. So far it is only mentioned in her story casually, because she is a Sylvari. But after that the Pale Tree is never mentioned again. Certainly not in any of the Living Story.

Are you talking about in-game? Because the game is, admittedly, doing a crappy job of presenting Scarlet’s story. Her ACTUAL story presents her struggle against the Pale Tree and the Nightmare Court. Scarlet’s whole thing is that she wants to be free from people telling her what to do and how to live, which is why she closed her mind to the Pale Tree’s influence. In fact, according to the story, Scarlet heard the Pale Tree’s voice only once more, right before she looked into the Eternal Alchemy, and the Pale Tree told her that if she continued, she would see things the world wasn’t yet ready for.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “The biggest theme in our clearest look at Scarlet’s motives (this short story) is Scarlet’s need to rebel and escape the Pale Tree’s dream, and any outside determination on her life.”

A much stronger theme to look at, is all the alliances Scarlet has formed, the many sciences she has studied, and the way she’s tried to alter these races. A good example is the Krait Hybrid.

Why is this a stronger theme? All of the alliances are only means to an end for Scarlet—the theme of her story is rebellion and escape, not altering races into hybrid creatures. That’s the theme of the Living Story, not the actual short story about Scarlet.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “She wants to kill the Pale Tree, abolish the Nightmare court, and destroy Mordremoth. And history shows that she doesn’t care how she does this.”

She’s already free of the Pale Tree. Why would she want to kill it? History shows that she does not care much for anyone, Sylvari included.

Not quite. Above, I mentioned that she only blocked the Pale Tree out. Since the Tree is so big on free will, she doesn’t attempt to draw Scarlet back (or can’t), but it remains that she is at least present in Scarlet, as she attempts to stop her from viewing the Eternal Alchemy.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig already proposed a much more convincing theory, that Mordremoth is simply trying to reach Sylvari by corrupting them mentally, but without the Pale Tree being a willing participant. The idea of Mordremoth using mental manipulation seems to fit a sort of Cthulhu theme, and makes sense. But the Pale Tree being a dragon minion, is absurd.

In your opinion, yes. We have no idea how Mordremoth operates, although it seems that he uses at least some level of deception to create minions. But why is it so absurd that the Pale Tree is a dragon minion? The dialogue we get in the game already suggests that she wants to fight the dragons with us. But when we ask the Pale Tree about the events in the Sylvari opening quest, she claims that Zhaitan is the one corrupting the Dream. If you actually look at the design of the Shadow of the Dragon, it looks nothing like a champion or minion of Zhaitan, it looks more like a jungle dragon minion. One can make the argument that the Pale Tree isn’t all knowing and therefore wouldn’t suppose that the corruption is being caused by a yet unknown dragon, but you could also make the case that she doesn’t want anyone to know. If indeed Scarlet saw a connection between the Tree and Mordremoth, then it stands to reason that this might be what the Tree tried to stop Scarlet from seeing.

The “quoting” was unintentional, more of a reply that I failed to unquote, but if you want me to argue points, then I can oblige that:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Someone already did. There’s an entire thread that addresses this issue.

There is. And as I’ve already said, I’m impressed with it. One of the ideas why Sylvari couldn’t be minions is that they die instead of being corrupted. Why is this proof? You don’t see risen Destroyers, or Branded risen anywhere around. Maybe it’s not that the Sylvari are immune to corruption, but that they’re immune to corruption by other dragons. Just an example, not a comprehensive argument, obviously.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “The Pale Tree came about around the same time that the dragons awoke.”

Not true, the Elder Dragons awoke over a long time span. Not all of them woke simultaniously, and the awakening of Primordus was delayed. So you can pretty much cherry pick any date and say, “what a coincidence, one of the elder dragons awoke around that time”.

Actually, as I believe Crespus pointed out, the Pale Tree was planted over 250 years ago, which would place its “birth”, so to speak, at around the time the Elder Dragons began to awake. It’s not coincidence, so much as it’s the flow of Guild Wars history. Maybe this correlates, maybe not, but as we still don’t know how Mordremoth spreads corruption, it’s entirely possible that this tree (or one of the many from the seeds) was meant to be a champion of his.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “Destroyers reproduce with eggs from a central location/breeder. Similarly, the Sylvari are collectively “awaken” from the Pale Tree. This leads me to believe that the Pale Tree and other trees like it are meant to produce Mordremoth’s minions: corrupt Sylvari.”

This is silly. Sylvari are plants, so naturally they grow on a tree. A seed growing on a tree is not similar to a Destroyer growing from an egg. If the Pale Tree’s purpose was to spawn corrupt Sylvari, then it’s doing a really bad job at it.

How is hatching from eggs not similar to growing out of a tree? Eggs nurture life inside them until the hatchlings are large enough to burst forth from the shell. Likewise, the sylvari grow inside golden fruit on the Pale Tree’s boughs and emerge when they are fully “ripe”, and a seedling nurtures plant growth inside it until the plant bursts forth from it’s “shell” and continues to grow independently of it. This is a completely valid analogy. And of course the Pale Tree is doing a bad job at creating corrupted Sylvari: if the theory posits that it’s a freed champion of Mordremoth, it’s goal is to do the exact opposite!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “If the Sylvari naturally progress to a Nightmare state when they turn away from the Dream, then it follows that the natural state of the Sylvari is in Nightmare. Their natural state is corruption.”

This is faulty logic. Sylvari have a choice. They can follow the Dream, or follow the Nightmare. This does not make the Nightmare their natural state.

This isn’t faulty logic. The Sylvari who turn to nightmare never return, yet as normal Sylvari, they seem perfectly capable of choosing one or the other. Think of it like this: If the Pale Tree is a freed champion, like Glint, and if we know little about the Sylvari, then it stands to reason that the Pale Tree might instill her children with the free will Mordremoth would never give them. However, if they are seduced to the Nightmare Court, perhaps this is a sign Mordremoth has seized control of them once more. Their free will is gone, and as such, there is no returning from the Nightmare.

Wreave.2138:

@TheNinjaCupcake: All MMOs try to get PvE players to start playing PvP. Presumably there’s a strong financial incentive to do that. One explanation that I’ve heard is that PvP players are “stickier”, i.e. easier to keep than PvE players. PvE players will get bored and leave once they’ve done all the content (which happens relatively quickly), while PvP players will stick around as long as there are other players to fight and the PvP combat is sufficiently interesting.

Compare that the flame armor conflict, where ANet just didn’t have a strong financial incentive to sell the human armor skin to other races (yes, it had some incentive, but not a strong one). Hence that was a decision that was easier for them to revert.

Again, personally I understand that business rationale for coercing PvE players to play PvP. But just because I understand it, does not mean that I am not personally angry about being coerced, and it doesn’t mean that that my regard for (and willingness to give money to) ANet is not substantially reduced.

I really do honestly get the business side of things. But it’s still not good design. Yeah, some people can just wait for things to flip or run in with a zerg, but the people who don’t aren’t going to get a very good PvP experience from that.

I guess what I really want is for Anet to find a better way to entice people into PvP—and surely there’s a better way? Sure, I’m going to try fighting my way through map completion someday, but it won’t be fun, I won’t appreciate it, and I won’t set foot into WvW ever again. From my experience, PvE players are typically casual players who don’t like PvP style play regardless of how many carrots are dangled over the chasm separating the two gameplay modes. The only thing that is enticing me into WvW is the fact that I have a friend who enjoys that kind of thing who can probably help me get what I need—not the achievements.

A final point: PvP actually looks fun to me. I probably won’t try it out, but at some point I might try it. WvW does NOT look fun at all. If you really want PvEers to try out PvP, then make the achievement go into structured PvP instead of WvW. I’d be much more inclined to play structured PvP than WvW anyway, and if I had been forced to go into the structured arena first, maybe then I’d have tried WvW. The way it is now, it just makes me miffed and disappointed.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

The problem with this being that if the lore forum has supposedly disproved these theories before, then you and others could give specific links showing this.

Someone already did. There’s an entire thread that addresses this issue.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

The only attempt at this so far has been a link to a thread with nothing more than theories like this one. So I’m afraid that if these things have already been disproved, the burden of proof is on you.
Frankly, all you have done is claim that pieces of this theory are false with no proof other than “The Lore Forum has spoken” and acted like this was enough to suggest that your ideas are the only sound ones.

I beg your pardon? Didn’t I point out several issues where the OP is wrong in his assumptions?

• “The Pale Tree came about around the same time that the dragons awoke.”

Not true, the Elder Dragons awoke over a long time span. Not all of them woke simultaniously, and the awakening of Primordus was delayed. So you can pretty much cherry pick any date and say, “what a coincidence, one of the elder dragons awoke around that time”.

• “Destroyers reproduce with eggs from a central location/breeder. Similarly, the Sylvari are collectively “awaken” from the Pale Tree. This leads me to believe that the Pale Tree and other trees like it are meant to produce Mordremoth’s minions: corrupt Sylvari.”

This is silly. Sylvari are plants, so naturally they grow on a tree. A seed growing on a tree is not similar to a Destroyer growing from an egg. If the Pale Tree’s purpose was to spawn corrupt Sylvari, then it’s doing a really bad job at it.

• “If the Sylvari naturally progress to a Nightmare state when they turn away from the Dream, then it follows that the natural state of the Sylvari is in Nightmare. Their natural state is corruption.”

This is faulty logic. Sylvari have a choice. They can follow the Dream, or follow the Nightmare. This does not make the Nightmare their natural state.

• “The Pale Tree plays a central role in Scarlet’s story thus far.”

No it doesn’t. So far it is only mentioned in her story casually, because she is a Sylvari. But after that the Pale Tree is never mentioned again. Certainly not in any of the Living Story.

• “The biggest theme in our clearest look at Scarlet’s motives (this short story) is Scarlet’s need to rebel and escape the Pale Tree’s dream, and any outside determination on her life.”

A much stronger theme to look at, is all the alliances Scarlet has formed, the many sciences she has studied, and the way she’s tried to alter these races. A good example is the Krait Hybrid.

• “She wants to kill the Pale Tree, abolish the Nightmare court, and destroy Mordremoth. And history shows that she doesn’t care how she does this.”

She’s already free of the Pale Tree. Why would she want to kill it? History shows that she does not care much for anyone, Sylvari included.

Konig already proposed a much more convincing theory, that Mordremoth is simply trying to reach Sylvari by corrupting them mentally, but without the Pale Tree being a willing participant. The idea of Mordremoth using mental manipulation seems to fit a sort of Cthulhu theme, and makes sense. But the Pale Tree being a dragon minion, is absurd.

Okay, without stooping to insulting you, which just wouldn’t be right, I’m going to go ahead and say you just aren’t listening anymore.

I’m not refuting that the forums haven’t said all of this. I’m not refuting that you believe the forum theories are better. That’s fine.

But what you don’t seem to get is that the theories on the forums aren’t proof that this one is false. I’m sorry if you don’t like this theory, but if you want to say the lore forums’ ideas are better, well you go right ahead and have a lovely time of it.

The thing that’s irritating is that you’re coming here to this thread and consistently acting like the lore forums somehow prove anything, and, more importantly, you’re acting like you and your lore forum friends’ theories are the only ones worth listening to. I’m really sorry to tell you this, but they don’t, and they aren’t. Nothing on these forums proves anything unless it’s also on the wiki or has been put forth by the devs. Even the wiki is shaky at best if it’s open to public editing. Saying the forums, lore or otherwise, provide proof of anything in-game is like saying that Peta’s publications are proof that this is how animal activism works.

This is the last time I’m going to post something like this. If you don’t get the idea of actual proof coming from sources other than individuals who have some (albeit impressive) knowledge of the lore, then I don’t think you ever will, and I wish you happiness in your opinions.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Fine, I merely pointed out that you’re wrong on several things, and the lore community knows for sure these things are wrong. This hypothesis has been proposed several times in the lore forum, and shot down for these and many other reasons.

You can discuss it all you want, nothing wrong with that, but I’m afraid it has already been disproved by many other people besides me.

The problem with this being that if the lore forum has supposedly disproved these theories before, then you and others could give specific links showing this. The only attempt at this so far has been a link to a thread with nothing more than theories like this one. So I’m afraid that if these things have already been disproved, the burden of proof is on you.
Frankly, all you have done is claim that pieces of this theory are false with no proof other than “The Lore Forum has spoken” and acted like this was enough to suggest that your ideas are the only sound ones. Until there is some actual proof, either from the wiki or the dev’s own mouths (or fingers), I think we’ll all do a little better to treat everything as opinion and theory, and certainly not as fact.

Nilkemia.8507:

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

Hm…that post seems like a similar thread to this one (obviously) but nothing that a) a dev commented on to dissuade the theory or b) that actually picked out a specific piece of lore that said the theory isn’t possible. Unless I’m misreading, it seems like a group of people hashing out a theory just like they are here but not really disproving the idea that the Pale Tree is tied to Mordremoth. If anything, reading that thread made me think that the idea is even more plausible.

Did you read all four pages?

Yes, and nothing suggests any of this as fact, just someone else’s ideas on the subject. Don’t get me wrong, they’re very titillating ideas, but they’re nothing that I could look up on the wiki and get a hard answer on. I’m impressed with Konig’s long and obviously well-thought out theory, but it’s just that…a theory. Just because it’s posted in the “Lore Forum” doesn’t mean it’s actually confirmed and definitive lore from the game developers.

Hm…that post seems like a similar thread to this one (obviously) but nothing that a) a dev commented on to dissuade the theory or b) that actually picked out a specific piece of lore that said the theory isn’t possible. Unless I’m misreading, it seems like a group of people hashing out a theory just like they are here but not really disproving the idea that the Pale Tree is tied to Mordremoth. If anything, reading that thread made me think that the idea is even more plausible.

Darnacus.5961:

After that, all sylvari players become corrupted, promoted to ‘champion’-level and targets for other players. Their stuff + bank can be looted. ANET loses 1/5th of their player base but makes a buzz for largest manhunt (well, sylarihunt) in MMO history.

Sounds like someone is upset that he missed out on the creative pills when they were being handed out. :P

To go off of other theories that actually derive from the context of the OP:
My idea about the end result of this theory is that if the Pale Tree doesn’t get saved from Scarlet’s attack that there will be a “closing ceremony” kind of thing where we escort Trahearne to wherever the other seeds are, and see him plant a new Pale Tree. This way, the Sylvari can continue as normal to a point. But maybe the Pale Tree, even though it might grow almost instantaneously, doesn’t possess the knowledge of its predecessor, leaving the Sylvari still soundless to an extent—being forced to “mother” their own mother. I’m not too well-versed on the lore, so this theory may not fit with it, but I still think it’s still nice to entertain the idea that all this Scarlet nonsense was worth something.

From reading how this thread is progressing and how it has progressed, I think the main thing we can take from it is that this issue is something different than just “A few people don’t like this, therefore they’re being entitled and don’t deserve to have this changed” like a lot of people are implying. What really kittens me off is that when a handful of people whined at Anet because the Flamekissed armor skin looked like human cultural armor and that wasn’t allowed because they wanted to be special snowflakes, Anet began changing it almost immediately. But something like this where a lot more people dislike an aspect of the game, Anet won’t change because “metrics tell us otherwise”. So, Anet wasn’t too busy to read a forum and change something completely inconsequential to how the game is played in that it is even more unnecessary and extraneous, but because of metrics, they won’t change something that about the same number of people (if not more) dislike. I just don’t understand that logic.

Hey, the theory says nothing about Scarlet being smart. :P Besides, I doubt it would be as easy to turn other races, like the Skritt, the Hylek, or even major races like the Charr or Humans, all of which have their own problems and concerns, against a force that almost everyone assumes is benevolent. The dredge want to claim the Shiverpeaks for themselves—why not give them a “show of faith” and get them on her side? The Nightmare Court is definitely against the Pale Tree, and the krait are always looking to claim some territory given that Bubbles stole theirs from them. I think the point was to pull together an alliance of people, as Crespus said, who have the technology she wants. Plus, she could exploit their own goals by attacking their enemies for them and making friends.

AntiGw.9367:

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

I’m sorry, “permitted”? As far as I know, I paid my $60, I’m permitted to do whatever I want in this game. And like I said previously in another reply, had you cared to read, I may very well try my hand at getting WvW completion one day. The problem is, people are viewing map completion as some grand right of passage into the mystical path of wonder that is WvW when I see more challenge in traversing Orr than I do in joining some huge mob of people destroying everything while “locating” a map that’s already been discovered for me. That’s not a challenge. Fighting Lupicus the way he’s intended (no zerker zerg) is a challenge. Soloing your first champ is a challenge. And to be fair, WvW can be challenging, I’m not saying it’s entirely simple. But what you and a lot of people don’t get is that a challenge of the magnitude people want for a legendary doesn’t have to be in WvW. You’re acting like anyone who doesn’t want to do it or can’t or don’t care aren’t worthy to get the achievement and that’s terribly closed-minded and conceited.

To answer your question though, I just care about it. Map completion is fun, and I find it challenging to venture into some of the higher level areas. I dislike that that sense of achievement is degraded in WvW to hoping for a zerg and if not, taking off all your armor so it doesn’t break and trying again and again to avoid the same 20 people.

Yes, permitted. They could have easily been account-bound on crafting. Legendaries are reserved for the few people that put in the extra effort.

Reality check, legendaries should go to the most deserving players. Who is more deserving? Players whose highest achievement is running up to a PoI in an unchallenging environment? Or players that can also excel in the competitive scene?

No, sorry, that doesn’t work. Once again, you’re taking the conceited approach. I see no challenge in what your WvW is. Joining a giant group of people and rushing at the enemy is not much of a challenge. Having everything mapped out for you leaving you to run around and connect the dots isn’t a challenge. Granted, much of PvE map completion isn’t a challenge either. To be honest, I see a lot of it as a way to level and orient new players. But that’s why I wish it was better. I want to see more challenges in the overworld, and showing me all the shiny waypoints, vistas, and POIs in WvW doesn’t bring that any closer. Besides that, I just don’t get why you don’t see the flaw in this system on low pop servers. No matter how many times you rally and try again, people are literally crammed against a gate waiting to kill you. There IS no getting inside anything.

You know, maybe this is off topic a little, but with how you’re acting, let me tell you my thoughts on what a REAL achievement for a legendary would be. It wouldn’t be running around a map doing random tasks, that would be a separate achievement. To get your legendary, you would need to do a series of quests to get it, and not hearts, honest to goodness, dungeon-like quests all by yourself and gather the components you need—maybe the pieces of the weapon or something. Then you have to gather crafting materials to make up gifts. This way the legendary isn’t handed to you, it’s truly earned, and not by some tasks that become routine after a while.

AntiGw.9367:

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

AntiGw.9367:

ixiduffixi.6384:

AntiGw.9367:

You don’t naturally deserve map completion, you don’t naturally deserve a legendary.

Those things have a high difficulty attached to them. They are restricted to only a few players that can fulfill the requirements and are willing to put in a lot of effort. One of the requirements is having enough patience to sit through several WvW cycles.

That’s intentional, it’s good design, it works fine.

It’s completely narrow minded posts like that this that get tiresome to read. Why should I be restricted from something I would like to work for, simply because I don’t like one particular aspect of the game? Why should I also be hindered because my server can’t muster the numbers to spare so I can capture a few out of the way keeps/towers? Also sit through several cycles? I’ve been sitting for months now. I need green side map completion and it’s never going to happen because of the ridiculous way they made the colors score exclusive. I have put in a quite a bit of work for my rewards. I did all of the mundane heart quests, visited all of the out of the way POIs in Lanar’s, grabbed all of the points and SPs in Orr. Why should we then have to rely on the cooperation of hundreds of other players for one personal reward. The system is not fine. It’s broken. If it was “fine” there wouldn’t so many complaints about it.

Mundane heart quests are not considered to be enough for prestige items like legendaries. You want to be rewarded top dollar for doing things that require no real effort.

Transfer to a different server if you really can’t rally your own, then transfer back. What, you also want to get the legendary without paying the gold for it?

On the contrary: I’m actually working towards buying my legendary at the moment. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear when I said “I don’t expect anyone to hand me my legendary or my map completion”. Let me rephrase:

I would gladly rally and regroup as many times as necessary, but I think you’re missing the point. I can do this until my character is sick from teleporting so much, but at the end of the day, there’s no way I’m making it into some of those keeps in this lifetime unless I want to maybe try to wave around or beg the 25 people chomping at the bit to kill me for some points to let me through. You must not be on a low pop server to assume that rallying and teleporting is even a viable option. Of course, you must also have a ton of money to assume that changing servers is even a viable option.

Besides all that, who says the only way map completion is challenging enough to warrant deserving a legendary has to be in WvW? Southsun Cove exists. And I’m sorry, but map completion isn’t the only thing you need to do for a legendary, it’s only one very small piece. It’s not like I can get 100% on the map and get a message that says “Congratulations! You’re awesome, so here’s a free Kudzu!”

If you are working towards buying it, why are you here complaining about the WvW requirement? Buying them is permitted specifically for players like yourself who can’t make one themselves.

My server has been in many tiers, from top to bottom. Rallying is definitely a viable option (as shown by some dedicated members of my community). Changing colors is the least of the things that you can accomplish with your low pop.

I’m sorry, “permitted”? As far as I know, I paid my $60, I’m permitted to do whatever I want in this game. And like I said previously in another reply, had you cared to read, I may very well try my hand at getting WvW completion one day. The problem is, people are viewing map completion as some grand right of passage into the mystical path of wonder that is WvW when I see more challenge in traversing Orr than I do in joining some huge mob of people destroying everything while “locating” a map that’s already been discovered for me. That’s not a challenge. Fighting Lupicus the way he’s intended (no zerker zerg) is a challenge. Soloing your first champ is a challenge. And to be fair, WvW can be challenging, I’m not saying it’s entirely simple. But what you and a lot of people don’t get is that a challenge of the magnitude people want for a legendary doesn’t have to be in WvW. You’re acting like anyone who doesn’t want to do it or can’t or don’t care aren’t worthy to get the achievement and that’s terribly closed-minded and conceited.

To answer your question though, I just care about it. Map completion is fun, and I find it challenging to venture into some of the higher level areas. I dislike that that sense of achievement is degraded in WvW to hoping for a zerg and if not, taking off all your armor so it doesn’t break and trying again and again to avoid the same 20 people.

AntiGw.9367:

ixiduffixi.6384:

AntiGw.9367:

You don’t naturally deserve map completion, you don’t naturally deserve a legendary.

Those things have a high difficulty attached to them. They are restricted to only a few players that can fulfill the requirements and are willing to put in a lot of effort. One of the requirements is having enough patience to sit through several WvW cycles.

That’s intentional, it’s good design, it works fine.

It’s completely narrow minded posts like that this that get tiresome to read. Why should I be restricted from something I would like to work for, simply because I don’t like one particular aspect of the game? Why should I also be hindered because my server can’t muster the numbers to spare so I can capture a few out of the way keeps/towers? Also sit through several cycles? I’ve been sitting for months now. I need green side map completion and it’s never going to happen because of the ridiculous way they made the colors score exclusive. I have put in a quite a bit of work for my rewards. I did all of the mundane heart quests, visited all of the out of the way POIs in Lanar’s, grabbed all of the points and SPs in Orr. Why should we then have to rely on the cooperation of hundreds of other players for one personal reward. The system is not fine. It’s broken. If it was “fine” there wouldn’t so many complaints about it.

Mundane heart quests are not considered to be enough for prestige items like legendaries. You want to be rewarded top dollar for doing things that require no real effort.

Transfer to a different server if you really can’t rally your own, then transfer back. What, you also want to get the legendary without paying the gold for it?

On the contrary: I’m actually working towards buying my legendary at the moment. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear when I said “I don’t expect anyone to hand me my legendary or my map completion”. Let me rephrase:

I would gladly rally and regroup as many times as necessary, but I think you’re missing the point. I can do this until my character is sick from teleporting so much, but at the end of the day, there’s no way I’m making it into some of those keeps in this lifetime unless I want to maybe try to wave around or beg the 25 people chomping at the bit to kill me for some points to let me through. You must not be on a low pop server to assume that rallying and teleporting is even a viable option. Of course, you must also have a ton of money to assume that changing servers is even a viable option.

Besides all that, who says the only way map completion is challenging enough to warrant deserving a legendary has to be in WvW? Southsun Cove exists. And I’m sorry, but map completion isn’t the only thing you need to do for a legendary, it’s only one very small piece. It’s not like I can get 100% on the map and get a message that says “Congratulations! You’re awesome, so here’s a free Kudzu!”

AntiGw.9367:

You don’t naturally deserve map completion, you don’t naturally deserve a legendary.

Those things have a high difficulty attached to them. They are restricted to only a few players that can fulfill the requirements and are willing to put in a lot of effort. One of the requirements is having enough patience to sit through several WvW cycles.

That’s intentional, it’s good design, it works fine.

Seriously? It’s posts like these that are what I was just talking about in the first place! Yeah, I get that you don’t automatically deserve anything in the game, but there’s a difference between achieving something—that is, successfully reaching a goal after overcoming many challenges and pitfalls along the way—and what WvW completion is to a lot of people, especially on low pop servers. You can challenge yourself and feel a sense of achievement without being shoehorned into something, and your closed-minded attitude towards people who dislike something that can be extremely frustrating on low pop servers and your refusal to see them as “worthy” is exactly why I will never join WvW willingly.

Besides, I never asked anyone to hand me a legendary or map completion. I’m perfectly willing to work for it. But I don’t want to work for it in WvW when all of the challenges I’ve faced and overcome have been of an entirely different nature. It isn’t about player skill or ability in WvW; it’s about how long you can sneak around before you’re murdered, and I’d appreciate it if people would stop pretending that WvW requires any level of skill when it’s just one person soloing.

Please excuse any rudeness, perceived or otherwise. I have a bit of a migraine, so it’s not intentional, I promise!

I’m also going to be as brief as possible. Frankly, I’m sick of being told what to do, by devs who say this tactic is suitable because some people on high pop servers enjoyed being “encouraged” to join WvW, and by WvWers who insist that it’s simple enough to follow a zerg and get what I need. Devona’s Rest doesn’t have zergs. We have militias. Nor can I take my guild of largely newbies to the game and expect to have any more success. I don’t belong to a large guild—in fact I run my own for people still learning the game. It isn’t as simple as you all are pretending it is. Maybe on Tarnished Coast this is little more than another challenge on the path to glory, but on DR it’s a hellish experience of either getting steamrolled by a group of people glitching through the gates because there’s so many of them, or waiting months or even years for DR to actually take something I need. Yeah, that sounds like a whoooole lot of fun, guys. I think I’ll go do that right now.

I’m also sick of the argument that suggests that PvEers should suck it up because WvWers have to do a great deal of PvE. Seriously? That’s just insulting. And hypocritical to boot. The same people who say skritt like this are the people who berate PvEers because they aren’t being coerced. Well who’s coercing you into doing PvE? No one said you had to level characters or do jumping puzzles or complete the explorer achievements. You’re scaled to 80 in both PvP and WvW, so you can just go and do that without doing anything else. You see how ridiculous that sounds? We feel the same way. But you know why it’s different? Because WvW and PvP aren’t huge parts of GW 2! You can play the game without even setting foot there! However, as a game that is obviously mostly PvE, that part is at least a little bit required. So yeah, the fact that one of the achievements we look forward to getting on our own like the other 95% kind of ticks us off.

I apologize for not doing better research on threads that were available, but I suppose what’s done is done.
In response to all of this feedback: Yes, achievements are meant to be feats in which you overcome challenges, but the mistake is believing that those challenges MUST come from WvW or PvE. As LadyRhonwyn said, even removing the x3 exploration of WvW maps would be nice. Besides, a definition is only as good as the context it’s in, and in this case the context is inconsistent. If Anet is so bent on creating an integrated society among WvW, PvP, and PvE, then why are there only two achievement sets reflecting this? The ONLY achievements based in both PvE and WvW are jumping puzzles and map completion, and at least with jumping puzzles you can wait for an empty world and hope no one’s standing by to jump you in the darkness. If we’re supposed to believe that Anet is trying to integrate the three aspects of the game, then why doesn’t the Emperor title require you to equip all the cultural armors AND a bunch of PvP armor sets? Why don’t the Explorer achievements take you into WvW? Why don’t the Slayer achievements have a slot for player kills, like there are in the PvP only achievements? The fact of the matter is, the game is NOT integrated well with all three aspects, and it seems rather silly that only two achievement sectors do this.

And if the problem is that WvW exploration yields blueprints or other useful items, then the simple solution is to change it. WvW as it stands isn’t a good “middle ground” as Anet claims; anyone on a lower populated server risks their life going in there just to get a silly vista. And for the people who use others who have done map completion time and time again…that’s not enough of a reason for me. Do they also play WvW? If not, how many tries did it take them? How frustrated were they? I understand that that’s the point of an achievement, but there are better ways to do this. As far as integration goes, I’m not convinced this even needs to happen. PvP and WvW are things that people either like or don’t, and being forced to go into them to get PvE achievements won’t change that.

To (sort of) quote Xenon above: God forbid we expect the Anet philosophy of “Play how you want” to actually hold any water. Who is to say what “actually playing the game” means? If we’re supposed to be able to play how you want, I expect to take that statement at face value. Actually playing the game can mean any number of things and I think it’s horribly selfish and conceited to think that WvW or PvP is the deciding factor in how well or how thoroughly anyone plays this game. That’s a load of bull. I see no reason why it’s any less challenging to complete all of the Explorer and Dungeon achievements, and complete all of Tyria including Southsun Cove than it is to run through WvW where everything is ALREADY UNLOCKED. That’s not exploration, that’s running from point A to point B as quickly as possible.

Yes, I do plan to attempt map completion, and I suspect that eventually, I’ll succeed. Will I feel accomplished? Yes. But it will be a sense of relieved accomplishment, like the kind of thing you feel after playing through Dark Souls, not the kind of achievement I feel after doing a task that I find legitimately challenging. Simply put, the challenging part of WvW map completion is getting ganked by a horde of players who want their kill points. That’s not even challenging, that’s called “repeatedly try multiple strategies until someone doesn’t see you”.

If Anet really wants to integrate all aspects of the game, then, like I said above, they need to make more achievements obtainable in a combination of WvW, PvE, and PvP. Since I don’t think integration is even a good idea, then why can’t we revamp the system and make it a little less “Play the way the majority wants” and a little more “Play the way you want”.

**Edit: Thank you, Hubal! This is exactly what I’m trying to get across! It isn’t about player skill, it’s about the world setup at the time! And it’s not like you can guest on other servers, you need to pay gems to transfer, and then once you get map completion, you have to pay again if you want to go back. Honestly, if I worked at WvW, I have no doubt I’d be good at it. But that doesn’t matter. I can be the best WvWer ever and still not stand a chance against five dudes. That’s the point I’m trying to make.

I hate that the last (and only) two posts I’ve made on the forums hold suggestions, but as a player who only recently decided to look into getting 100% map completion, I’m a little frustrated by the current system. Why does someone who has no interest in PvP of any kind have to run into each of the four WvW maps, hope they don’t get ganked by a bunch of people looking to actually play WvW, and maybe get what they need to complete the maps? I know some people will say “Just run in when the map looks empty” or “Follow a zerg so you don’t get targeted”. There are a few problems with these suggestions.
One, I’m not familiar with PvP, nor do I want to be. If I’m just here for the PvE content, why should I be forced to enter WvW to get an achievement? (Mind you: I know nothing in GW 2 is required, and I’m not forced to get map completion. I’m saying that IF I want map completion, THEN I am forced to go into WvW).
Two, I’m on the Devona’s Rest server. Since you can’t guest on another server when doing WvW, I’m stuck here unless I pay gems to leave a server where all of my friends are, and just from one venture into WvW to attempt map completion, I can see that our WvW leaves a little to be desired.
Three, following a zerg or entering when the map is fairly clear is no guarantee that you won’t get ganked. And running from players is a death sentence while running from that random group of raptors you ran into isn’t. Point being: if you run into players accidentally, you’re screwed.
So, given these circumstances, I propose a couple of options that could be implemented for the people who don’t want to participate in WvW, but who want to get map completion:

My first option,and the one I happen to prefer, could be that you have the option to enter a PvE instance of the map where normal enemies appear as normal so that you aren’t just wandering around without any challenges, but the only thing you risk getting ganked by are a pack of wolves. I prefer this option because it keeps the challenges you would face when mapping out the overworld while removing the sometimes completely unfair circumstances when you accidentally run into a horde of players. This way, WvW players don’t miss out on kills (because the map completionists wouldn’t set foot in the PvP map anyway) and map completionists can work towards their goals without fear of getting decimated.

Another option is to give players a choice upon entering a WvW map. You can either “play normally” where you are killable, can kill other players, and participate in the WvW festivities as normal. Alternatively, you can “opt out”, where you become an unkillable ghost who cannot be targeted and who cannot target or kill other players. You’re basically wandering around the map unable to do anything except map completion. WvW players still don’t miss out on any kills and map completionists can still wander the world secure in knowing that they can take as much time as they need to figure out how to get to a particular vista or point of interest.

Some people might criticize this because taking out the WvW aspect of map completion takes out some of the difficulty and therefore the sense of achievement. But WvW map completion is difficult to the point of being impossible if you don’t do it a certain way, and instead of being the challenging kind of difficult, it’s the frustrating kind of difficult. For the PvE players who just want to get map completion, whether for the achievement or for a legendary, maybe add Southsun Cove as an area that needs to be completed to add a challenge. Make us get all the Explorer achievements before map completion counts. If the level of challenge involved is the issue, add something that already exists in PvE as that final test rather than sending us into PvP. Southsun Cove is challenging enough, and Orr can be rough to journey through, especially alone, but it isn’t impossible to find a server that is more populated and join a group taking a temple.

My final point is that WvW should not dictate whether map completion is achieved. The only people who frequent those maps are those who actually enjoy WvW—and that’s okay. For the people who prefer to stick to the PvE, give us challenges that we’ll enjoy more than running into a map where there’s a very high possibility that we’ll die horribly just inches from the point of interest we were looking to discover.

Hey, look at that! O.o Thanks for the tip! I’ve been drooling over those for a while (not literally of course because that would be weird).

That’s the most amazing cottonball-tailed bird thing I’ve ever seen! At this point, I’d be happy to have a single rabbit added as a pet, but one can dream, can’t they?

My main is a ranger. I loved the class the first time I leveled it and I still love it now that I’ve leveled it again as a different race, but the one thing I find lacking in the class is the variety of pets that are available in the world and how little merit there is to actually collecting them all (barring, of course, the fact that non-GW 1 players like me can’t even do that).

Honestly, I just want some variety. Let me walk up to a random wind rider or a minotaur or a war beast and let me attempt to charm it. I’m not even asking that they have outrageous stats—they can have stats similar to existing pets—I’m just asking that I have some variety in my choices rather than a choice between five drakes, only two of which actually look like they’re supposed to. Additionally, while I applaud the rewards for people migrating from GW 1, I really don’t like the idea that I can’t even get some of the good pets out there. I’d love to have a reef drake or a black widow spider, but because I never played GW 1, those are forever locked away from me unless I go and grind up Hall of Monuments points from GW 1.

Now, I’m not expecting to be able to charm an oakheart or anything ridiculous like that, nor am I expecting anything OP, but I would like it if the pet system in GW 2 was a little more inspired. As of now, a ranger sees a juvenile whatever and can immediately charm it, put it in their pocket, and go on their merry way. Make me work for new pets. I doubt a juvenile polar bear would willingly follow a ranger just because they walked up to it and said hi. If I’m not being too ambitious, I’d even like some way to have pets level with you, maybe have them become a normal pet instead of a juvenile pet at some point.

I just find the pet system to be lacking. Some people suggest being able to toggle your pet on and off or perma-stow them, and I like those ideas for certain instances, but the pet is a huge part of the ranger class. Stowing it permanently is like taking away a warrior’s adrenaline or an elementalist’s attunements. I don’t want to be crippled by my pet, I want it to fight beside me as a partner and act as a key part of my class mechanics. Having multiple incarnations of the same exact pet may be easy for balance, but if I could run around Tyria alongside a war beast or even a jackalope. I love my Admiral Mo Hawkins (ice drake), and I know people have their own preferences for pets, but I want some variety!

I’m so glad someone else noticed this! This new sound irritates me to tears! It happens on my ranger whenever I use the greatsword’s Maul skill, or sometimes the Swoop or Hilt Bash skills. The clip sounds more like my poor Asura is done with everything and doesn’t want to live anymore.