(edited by Tipper.7354)
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There’s a lot to be said about a guy when I can tell him that “Right and Wrong are irrelevant in a conversation about hypothetical theories” and that, on that basis, “He is not right”, and he proceeds to spend an hour screaming that I’ve insulted him. Because really, that’s it – I never said you were outright wrong, I never questioned your intelligence, I just said you are not right and apparently that’s an unforgivable insult to you. Because honestly, I’m not sure at what other point I’ve said anything that could be taken as an insult.
The only advice I can give you, Konig, is the old saying that “When everyone except you is wrong, maybe you’ve got it backwards.” But I’m sure you’ll either declare this an insult, or… how did you put it? “Saying that on the internet is admitting you’re wrong!”
On that basis, I’ll make it simple. You don’t know how to debate or have a civil conversation, and you don’t want to discuss the topic at hand – you want to win an argument when you’re the only one having one. Frankly, Korval’s said the smartest thing yet. If you wanna believe you’re right, good for you, but I’m done with this conversation. You’re either trolling or having a tantrum, and either way you’re still not right, and it’s not worth the effort.
Well, with regards to Glint breaking free of Kralkatorrik’s control, the problem is that we don’t know enough. And I know, seems like I’m flogging the dead horse there, but consider. We don’t actually know how Kralkatorrik’s control works. We don’t know how that control was broken. We don’t know what, exactly, the Forgotten did to free Glint. We don’t know how Glint’s mind worked after being freed. We don’t know if Glint could have been enslaved again. We don’t know if what happened was specific to being Branded, or specific to the Forgotten Ritual, or specific to being Glint herself. So we have literally no idea how, exactly, a Champion can break free under any other circumstances. The only thing that we have solid evidence for is that it can happen, and that in Glint’s case, it did.
What happened with Glint is very interesting, but the only thing it proves is that a Champion can break free of its Master’s influence. The rest is circumstantial evidence at best.
The popular theory with the Pale Tree, as I’ve understood it, was that when Ronan took the tree far from where Mordremoth slept, distance and the Dragon’s slumber weakened its control because it wasn’t exerting direct influence. When the Tree grew, it grew with the teachings of Ventari, and attained empathy along with its natural sentience. Mordremoth’s corruption could not be completely reversed, however, which explains the existence of the Nightmare Court.
Of course there is no evidence, but since we have no idea how the Pale Tree works, or how Mordremoth works, it would be utterly pointless to demand any. That’s just the theory – and it’s the popular theory, I don’t take credit for inventing it.
As for the Sylvari’s immunity to corruption, that’s well-established, and it’s obviously something that no other race has shown, which is why they’re so special. Dragon Minions in general are stated to be hostile to one another – “Elder Dragons appear to be hostile to each other, as their minions will fight another dragon’s minions just as they would fight any living creature.” We’ve never seen a single instance of cross-corruption despite the Dragon Minions swarming Tyria in their tens of thousands. And even if one could, that would sort of shatter the idea that once you’re corrupted, you serve that Dragon for the rest of your existence.
The only thing we’ve seen that even suggests otherwise is the Crucible of Eternity – which is specifically stated to be the site of ridiculously dangerous, utterly insane experiments that go against all logic and have never been done before. In fact, I’d say it’s evidence to support that cross-corruption is not supposed to happen: It took the full might of the Inquest to create exactly two hybrids, those being Kudu’s Monster and Subject Alpha, and both were unstable monstrosities that were too insane to be controlled. If all you had to do to create a hybrid is rub a shard of Corrupted Ice against a Destroyer, the Inquest would’ve figured that out in five minutes in their quarters in Rata Sum, not built an entire Dungeon around it.
In short, dragon minions don’t like each other and are, at the very least, highly resistant to spreading corruption amongst different factions, to the point where the only cases ever seen of a creature with more than one type of corruption was a custom-made Inquest monster that even they deeply regretted making. The only other life form in Tyria that shows resistance to corruption? The Sylvari.
Hmm… I still think it’s reasonable that the Miasma could have been deployed multiple times to keep defenders out, and I do actually have some (admittedly small) experience with mining and drilling techniques. The drill could have easily made that distance in a day or two, you’re right, but setting it up and stabilizing it would take time, and doing so in a war zone would be impractical, which implies the city would have to be cleared, then held long enough for the drill to be positioned and supported, and then the actual drilling itself…
It’s definitely more than a couple of days, but you’re right – Lion’s Arch clearly didn’t take two full months. Point acknowledged. c:
No, we are having theories here, and you’re saying everyone else is wrong and you are right. But since we’re talking about a hypothetical situation, you cannot be right. None of us can.
Here’s the three things that we do know, and the only things we know.
- The Sylvari are a very new race that are unlike anything seen in Tyria before, and their origins and nature are a mystery even to them.
- The Pale Tree is a unique being of immense power, but while its geographical origins are known, literally nothing else is.
- Mordremoth is a complete unknown as to the style and nature of his minions, corruption, and personal power.
We. Don’t. Know. Anything. Else.
However! There is ample material with which we can draw strings from one point to the other. That, which it’s sadly clear you don’t grasp, is the point of the discussion and conversation. And many people are doing so, using plenty of the available sources.
The main basis of most of your arguments is comparing to other things in Tyria. Different trees compared to the Pale Tree. Different Champions compared to other Champions. But none of that is remotely relevant. What you’re doing is saying that a different character, in a different plotline, under different circumstances, was probably different to something we don’t know anything about yet. What, do you want a prize for that brilliant observation? Of course we don’t know yet. Nobody is saying what is, or what will be. We are making up theories.
You, on the other hand, are attacking other people by saying their evidence is not good enough, when there is no existing standard for “Good Enough.” You’re making irrelevant comparisons which fail to address any relevant points. You’re taking a hypothetical situation where we cannot possibly know what is right, and telling others that they are wrong, and you have no evidence to back that up.
You can’t prove others wrong without you being proven right. And you are not right. You can’t be. Nobody can – and I am aware this includes me. But instead of attacking others whose theories are different to mine, I’m trying to have a civil conversation about this topic.
It’s a conversation about theories and hypotheticals, and you’re trying to make it about who’s right and who’s wrong. And it’s obnoxious. Either enjoy the conversation for what it is, or let the rest of us enjoy it, but for the love of God stop attacking everyone who doesn’t agree with you.
For the initial attack and invasion of Lion’s Arch, and the following evacuation, 2-4 days is a perfectly reasonable timeline. And for the purposes of gameplay, those events were repeated for a full month.
But having taken Lion’s Arch, it’s not at all unreasonable to say that Scarlet’s forces could have then held the city for a month or two. It was a massive, well-supported army of land, sea and air troops, and at any time Scarlet could deploy the miasma to clear any forces not her own out of the city. And a serious drilling operation like she undertook, even with a machine that size… that’s not the sort of thing you knock out over the space of a couple of days. There had to be some decent time involved there. Maybe a full two months wouldn’t have been necessary, but it’s at the very least plausible.
Well, then I apologise if I came across that way. I never meant to say that anyone was wrong, and I don’t think that I explicitly did, but if that’s how it looked then I’m genuinely sorry.
All I meant was to say that regardless of what the past confusion was, for the purposes of any meaningful discussion now, it’s not relevant to talk about things in any context other than the officially confirmed canon.
Again, if I came across as rude or abrasive, it was a genuine misunderstanding, and I’m sorry for doing so.
I’m not saying you’re wrong about ANet’s stance in the past, I’m just saying that their stance now is 100% unequivocally definitely canon. Yeah, the flip-flopping was annoying and confusing, but it’s done now. The metaphorical bridge has been constructed. We can stop talking about how it didn’t used to be there, walk across it, and get on with our lives.
Well, event time doesn’t match real time. For example, the marionette fight happened ONCE. not the hourly event every day for two weeks. Likewise the battle of LA (escape and battle parts) only took place ONCE…Which is why the idea of LA being sieged for “weeks” (as wiki says) is very, very silly.
So we can assume some events take place over certain timeframes, but others are much shorter.
True, I’m sure the invasion of Lion’s Arch didn’t involve desperately evacuating citizens for a full month. Though the Marionette was a weapons test, and it does make sense that Scarlet would test it more than once, and it could simply be that Lion’s Arch was taken and then held by the Miasma and Scarlet’s forces for weeks, and the dynamic events simply focused on the more interesting playable parts of that. But yes, the timeline almost certainly doesn’t go 1-1 for every event.
Still, at the same time it is silly to assume that the events happened in anything resembling a short time frame. At the very least, Wintersday and Halloween both happened in the meantime, and we didn’t jump from Molten Alliance to Toxic Alliance to Tower of Nightmares to the Invasion all in the space of a week or a month. If we assume that some events went faster and others went slower, then we could reasonable average it out to say that the real-world timeframe of 18 months is pretty close to the in-game timeframe. And I’d still argue that if it’s not an exact comparison, it’s much more likely to have been longer in-game than it was real-world.
While that’s true, regardless of what confusion there once was, it’s been cleared up in the bluntest way there is, and at this point trying to claim ambiguity in the timeline is impossible. It’s basically a guy standing on a river bank, wanting to cross to the other side, and refusing to use the newly-built bridge ten feet away because it wasn’t there six months ago. There’s not even plotholes or continuity errors caused by this resolution, it’s just cleared up an issue as simply as possible.
Good to get confirmation on Trahearne still being Marshall, though. It pretty much guarantees he’ll play a role in the upcoming Chapter Two. It’s just a question of what that role will be…
Konig, the problem is that you’re using things that aren’t evidence to disprove arguments. Saying that Glint could not have rebelled without the Ritual… where’s the proof of that? Where’s anything to say that’s true? The only concrete thing we have is that a Dragon Champion did rebel. With outside help, sure, but we have no qualifiers for anything else. The only concrete evidence we have is that it can happen, there is nothing that proves it requires help – and beyond that, the Pale Tree did have help anyway, just of a different sort. You cannot claim that Champion rebellion is impossible because there is no possible way you can know this.
Likewise, on the Sylvari’s resistance to corruption: All we know is that they are immune to all forms of Dragon Corruption seen thus far. The fact that we don’t know what Mordremoth is capable of is literally the whole point of this. There is only one form of life that has shown immunity to Dragon Corruption: Life forms that are already corrupted. Shattered don’t become Risen any more than Destroyers become Icebrood. Now, we’re saying that maybe the reason the Sylvari don’t become corrupted is because they’re already effectively corrupted. You don’t have to agree, but you also cannot possibly have evidence that disproves it. You might even have another theory! But you have no way at all of knowing the Sylvari-Mordremoth connection is false.
You’re dismissing everyone else’s arguments without showing a shred of evidence for your reasoning, and mocking the standards of other people’s theories while having no standards at all for your own.
If you can show something concrete that says The Sylvari Are Absolutely Not Mordremoth’s Minions then please, link it. Be direct, blunt, simple, and prove everyone wrong. If you can’t, then for the love of God, stop being so toxic.
There is absolutely zero ambiguity: it’s been stated in-game, out-of-game, in all forms of the lore, everything. The Personal Storyline ends, then it’s Living World Chapter One an undisclosed amount of time after that, and now we’re leading into Living World Chapter Two. We don’t know exactly how long the gap is, and how far back Scarlet Briar’s history goes in the timeline alongside the Personal Story, but the first playable part of her narrative (Molten Alliance) is very specifically stated to have happened after the defeat of Zhaitan.
If the attack of the Molten Alliance happened the day after Zhaitan’s fall, and time in-game moves at the same pace as real-world time, then the last time we as players interacted with Trahearne and the Pact in any plot-relevant way will have been a year and a half before the start of Chapter Two. That’s absolute minimum. If time in Tyria moves faster for the sake of plot, or if there was a gap between Zhaitan’s fall and the Molten Alliance forming – both of which are almost certainly true – then we can easily say it’s been two years or more.
Considering this, we have no idea what the Pact has been doing for all this time, where they’ve been fighting, or what the current leadership looks like. Hell, we’re even making assumptions by saying that Trahearne is still the Marshal. At best we’re making educated guesses about everything. But if Living World Chapter Two is going to involve the rise of Mordremoth, or any other dragon, we have to assume the Pact is going to show up, and that we’re going to see Trahearne again.
Absolutely everything else is uncertain at this point. That’s why making theories are fun!
EDIT: Gah, got kitten’d on the qualifier “big” before the word “assumption”. Annoying.
(edited by Tipper.7354)
Yeah, that’s literally the point of the Personal Story – without an army as organized, well-supported, and diverse as the Pact, there was absolutely zero chance of taking down Zhaitan. The Pact was absolutely necessary.
Killing, retiring, or otherwise taking Trahearne out of command is one thing, but ending the Pact itself essentially dooms Tyria. The remaining five Elder Dragons aren’t suddenly weaker now that Zhaitan is dead. We need the Pact.
Only a single Tengu is known to us to be in the Pact, and he’s a SMITH.
Plus what information would the Tengu have on the Maguuma wastes and jungle? Or the Crystal desert… or the far shiverpeaks or the depths of Tyria?
I don’t see how it’s sensible… or maybe even plausible for the most part.
Well, I should specify that I meant “More sensible than, say, an ex-Blood Charr from the Vigil, who would be a politically awkward choice.” A Tengu isn’t objectively better simply by virtue of being a Tengu, but one would lack certain disadvantages that some other races might have. But yeah, that was badly phrased on my part, sorry.
As for the Tengu Smith, sure, we know him. But I can only repeat it so many times – it is not necessarily true that our player will know every Tengu in Tyria. The better part of two years has passed since we last checked in with the Pact. Even if we personally knew every single Pact soldier at the time of Zhaitan’s defeat (which would be absurd), and we were 100% sure there was only one Tengu in the entire alliance (which we are not), that was still two years ago.
In the time since Zhaitan’s fall, anyone could have joined the Pact from any race. If they also had some leadership experience or valuable knowledge, it’s perfectly reasonable they’d be given at least a minor leadership position, and they’ve had two years to prove their worth. When the story starts up again, they’ll have even more time to prove themselves as leadership material – remember, Trahearne had zero military or leadership experience when he was appointed Marshal. All he had was relevant knowledge and the respect of the Order heads, and this hypothetical newcomer has had plenty of time to earn both of those.
And regarding what the Tengu know… that’s the point, we have no idea what they know. They know about the Elder Dragons, and their cycles of awakening. They live along the Tarnished Coast, which means they almost certainly had to deal with Risen and Destroyers, and their city at the very least borders on the Maguuma Jungle, which means the TriWurm and other such events wouldn’t have gone unnoticed by them.
The awakening of the Dragons and the chaos it’s spawned forced the five main nations of Tyria to band together for sheer survival; the Tengu, supposedly a lesser nation, is doing just fine on its own. So while we don’t know what skills, lore or power the Tengu have… they must have something or they’d have been wiped out or forced to relocate by now, like the Skritt or the Quaggans or the Hylek or any number of lesser races. The fact they held their ground must count for something.
When all’s said and done, I agree a Tengu isn’t necessarily a better choice simply by virtue of being a Tengu. What I am saying is that I think it’d be cool, and there’s no reason why not!
True, but my point is that just because we as the player don’t necessarily know this potential Tengu character doesn’t mean that everybody else doesn’t know him. The Tengu may be isolationist, but at the same time they’re not mythical unicorns that nobody’s ever seen before. It’s perfectly reasonable that there would be Tengu ambassadors, travellers, military leaders and craftsmen who are well-known, or simply Tengu individuals that choose to live in Tyria for their own reasons.
Of course, you are right that a Pact leader doesn’t have to be 100% neutral now, but it would still be preferable if they were. And yes, a Tengu character would not necessarily be any better than any other race, obviously! I just… well, I think it’d be cool, and at the very least it’s quite plausible.
Trahearne, while not know to (some of) the players, was still a major character in the world before we met him. It was one of the meaning reasons he fit the leadership role of the Pact.
- He was on good terms with the three Orders.
- He was a neutral figure.
- He was knowledgeable on the world as well as the enemy.
- And he probably has at least some political clout with the other player nations, being a Firstborn.
People have to remember that the Pact is an international military alliance, so its leader is a political role as well as militaristic one, and they have to maintain good relations with all the Orders and nations to work fully.
All good points and obviously true, but it does raise the obvious question – if not Trahearne, who?
It would need to be someone who’s completely neutral for starters. No history with the Priory, Vigil or Order – they’re all struck out and that pretty much eliminates any existing, high-ranked Pact members from the original Personal Storyline. They’d also need to be completely politically neutral, which I think we can say rules out a Charr or a Human – their treaty is reasonably sound, but still has plenty of detractors, and placing one or the other as leader of the Pact would be awkward at best. And if Trahearne does fall, what with the mistrust caused by Scarlet Briar and especially if...there does turn out to be a connection between Mordremoth and the Sylvari race, I’m not sure there’s another Sylvari could possibly fill his shoes.
Eir Stegalkin could perhaps take over – I can’t see another member of Destiny’s Edge taking on the role, and she does have the leadership experience to boot – but she’s pretty much the only reasonable choice of existing characters.
But again, there’s been a big window of time passed with the Living World Chapter One story. It’s now officially canon that Scarlet Briar’s campaign completely took place following Zhaitan’s defeat, which gives us a minimum of 18 months in which the Pact has been solidifying its strength. Add to that however long Chapter Two will go on before the question of Trahearne’s replacement becomes an issue, and it could be two or more years that end up passing since the Pact’s victory in Orr.
With that timeline, it’s not just plausible but extremely likely that the Pact’s leadership has some new faces we haven’t met before. But even if we don’t know them, they could still be well-respected within the Pact itself, and with all the upcoming Living World Chapter Two content, we have at least as much time to get to know these new characters as we had to get to know Trahearne.
So, a new leader needs to be completely independent of any existing politics in Tyria, can’t be a member of the Three Orders, and ideally would have some sort of relevant skills or knowledge that would make them suited to leading a campaign either against a specific Elder Dragon or in a specific geographical region. It’s perfectly reasonable that they might not be someone we know yet, they could quite easily be a member of the Pact’s leadership, they have plenty of time to prove their worthiness as replacement Marshal before an actual need arises, and the whole point of the pact is that literally anyone can join, regardless of background, species or capabilities, so long as they’ll do their part in the battle against the Elder Dragons.
At this point a Tengu isn’t just plausible, it’s sensible.
All that she cared about in that moment was that she needed to know what the Nightmare Courtier knew, and she needed to make sure the Courtier didn’t report back to Faolain. Achieving those two goals help the Tree and the Grove. The specifics on how, exactly, she achieves those goals… they don’t matter to her.
In her mind she’s doing something good, and not getting hung up on the details. Which makes sense for an Assassin who doesn’t quite understand how human emotions work. Once you get that’s how she thinks, you get Caithe.
I think the key with Caithe is that good and evil doesn’t enter into it. She doesn’t care whether an act was “Good” or “Evil” in the eyes of another – she cares about duty, and responsibility, making the choice that pays off for the greater good. She has her own system of morals.
It’s why she doesn’t hate Logan for abandoning them in the battle against Kralkatorrik – she realises he felt he was doing his duty. But she also is very blunt about telling him that she thinks he made the wrong choice, and doesn’t realise why that offends him. She can’t understand why Rytlock, who seems duty-bound, won’t just forgive Logan and move on. She doesn’t realise why Eir is unable to get past her own mistake, and she doesn’t see why Zojja hates Eir so passionately for Snaff’s death even though Eir obviously didn’t kill him.
All she sees if that Destiny’s Edge have a duty to fight the Dragon. So she tries to bring them back together, again and again, and she just doesn’t understand why they can’t let go of their anger, because to Caithe it’s not about emotion, it’s about duty. And if there’s a feeling that this makes her borderline Evil herself, or close to the beliefs of the Nightmare Court… well, we all remember what happens in the Future Vision of Orr that the Pale Tree grants us, don’t we?
But this makes me like Caithe a lot. She’s a Sylvari firstborn, and she highlights something we forget: This entire species is very, very new to the world. There are things that they simply do not understand about other races, about other people. For Caithe, one of those things is how two people can see the same situation but react differently, when logic or duty should dictate a clear course. It’s why she says that Love is dangerous, why she’s so frustrated that Destiny’s Edge cannot let go of the past, and when she executes the Nightmare Court prisoner, she’s eliminating a threat that she knows wouldn’t hesitate to do the same to her.
If you asked, she’d probably wonder why you didn’t kill the prisoner before she did.
That idea wouldn’t really work for one of the same reason people complained about Trahearne. “Who is this person? I don’t know him. He came out of nowhere!”
The Tengu had little to no contact since they have established the DoW. One popping out of the woodwork and taking the reins of an international military alliance would make no sense.
Oh, absolutely they couldn’t do it straight away. Part one of the Living Story Chapter Two shouldn’t be, “Trahearne dies, here’s a Tengu replacement.”
But… suppose we investigate Mordremoth’s awakening for a while, and a Tengu or two is introduced as Trahearne attempting to form allies. Doesn’t even have to be a raw recruit, they could simply be officers that were recruited during Living Story Chapter One, who you haven’t met yet. Trahearne and the Pact had to be doing something during the months that we now have it confirmed that Chapter One took place in following the defeat of Zhaitan. We could spend the entire Chapter getting to know the new officers before Trahearne is defeated, betrayed, killed by the Dragon, steps down from leadership voluntarily – Or if a popular theory pans out...Mordremoth's corruption could slowly turn him to the dark side before it kills him, or he turns evil and we kill him, or he kills himself to stop himself falling completely. At which point it would be a much less awkward transition, with the Tengu being an established character and a member of the Pact without ties to the Orders of Tyria.
For that matter, replace “Tengu” with any other race you’d like to see more of and it works as well. I’d like to see the Tengu explored more, so that’s what I’d enjoy, but it’s open for anything. And this is just a random suggestion off the top of my head, I’m sure the writers have considerably better ideas if it comes to that.
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Don’t forget the Ossuary of Unquiet Dead quests where you have to shut down Zhaitan’s soldier-manufacturying plant beneath the Temple of Lyssa. You’re told very specifically that they stitch together mangled remains to create Abominations, and raise some pretty ancient remains as full bodies. So it’s clear that Zhaitan doesn’t need an entire corpse – he can reanimate dead flesh in any form he likes.
Someone with leadership ability and who’s reasonably well-known. Perhaps a member of the Council of Lion’s Arch? Failing that, someone new who’d be introduced before Trahearne needs replacing and prove themselves capable. A lot of people want the Tengu to become playable, one of them would be interesting…
I think the Rule of Cool pretty much gives guns a free reign to be what they want in Tyria. I mean, Engineers can fire half a dozen different kinds of bullet from one gun, and make a rifle behave as a rifle, blunderbuss or rocket launcher at will. Thieves can fire flintlock pistols as fast as if they’re fully automatic handguns.
I’d say the best in-universe explanation is that most forms of technology in Tyria seem to have at least a little magic behind them, and that magic itself is treated like technology. So, there’s cannons, mortars, and special-use weaponry like the Charr use against Ghosts. But for rifles and pistols and spearguns… perhaps there’s just one basic ammunition for each type of firearm, and the effects are done with subtle enchantments and the user’s own magic upon firing?
Yeah, I actually do agree with you there, but in fairness I think that Canach would actually make a very decent addition to the party on his own merits. You could switch his race to a Norn or a Charr, keep everything else about his character the same, and I’d be pleased to see him join up with the other heroes. The fact that he also happens to fill the hole in their current demographics is just sort of a bonus, y’know?
Well whoever purchased him, I can’t help but notice that the Living World’s band of heroes is slightly lacking in the demographic department. One Norn, one Asura, one Charr, and two Humans, but they very noticably do not have a Sylvari member.
And now we’ve got Canach who’s being shipped off to parts unknown, and may be seeking redemption for his actions in the past…
All I care about the Pod Races is that I went to watch a movie about Ninja Space Wizards using laser swords to fight each other in a massive robot war, and then someone interrupted that so that the plucky young kid could win the Big Race to save the day and impress the girl of his dreams.
Get your bloody 1990s kid’s movie plot out of my Star Wars.
I don’t think the Pact necessarily needs to be destroyed. There’s a reason that it was formed: It would not have been possible to kill Zhaitan without it. If you take that away, there’s… really no force in existence capable of matching the other Elder Dragons. That’s not promoting them to “Look Tough” or anything, that’s basically flushing Tyria down the drain. A simple band of adventurers is not capable of killing an Elder Dragon by themselves. Destiny’s Edge tried and failed, and even with Logan there’s no guarantee they’d have succeeded.
Now, what is true is that the Pact pretty much curb-stomped Zhaitan with a string of nearly flawless victories. It wasn’t easy, but their campaign was a big long success story marred by only a few notable losses of personnel. But we can actually justify this by the simple fact that nobody in all of history has ever challenged the Elder Dragons on this scale before. Zhaitan was utterly unprepared for such an organized, well-supported, full-scale attack on it, and that’s doubly true because Trahearne specifically led the Pact against it. Immune to the Corruption, a gifted Scholar of Orr, one of the most formidable Necromancers alive, and guided by the visions of the Pale Tree while wielding Caladbolg. Honestly, Zhaitan really didn’t stand much chance. So I can sort of see why the Pact might seem overpowered and boring from one perspective.
But none of that stuff is really relevant any more, is it?
The Elder Dragons are extremely intelligent, and they’re obviously going to be aware of the Pact and the fact that they slew Zhaitan. They will be much more careful, they will be much less likely to underestimate the Pact’s capability. And again, as ideally suited as Trahearne was to fight Zhaitan and the Risen of Orr, he no longer has specialized knowledge or skills that will be relevant against the other Dragons – let alone Mordremoth, who is a complete unknown.
What does make sense is that the Dragons would target the Pact specifically now, as a visible and significant threat to them. And considering how incredibly valuable Trahearne is, as a leader, a figurehead, and a symbol of unity – not to mention that the entire Pact is his fault anyway – he should be at the absolute top of the remaining Dragons’ Kill List.
I want to emphasise that I liked the character of Trahearne. I think he played a vital role in the story the player character could not, and he was believable as a scholar who got thrown into being a military leader and had to find his footing. I just acknowledge that he was a tiny bit of a Mary Sue in his infallibility and limitless knowledge, and that the player carries him through every one of his important victories. To me this is not a reason to want him dead, I still like him, but it did make him unpopular in some circles – and that’s not a complaint, just an observation that he is unpopular in some circles. So ArenaNet may want to shed an unpopular burden?
For me though it’s that Trahearne is not as vital to the story as he was. Zhaitan could not have been defeated without him. But the remaining Elder Dragons can be defeated without him, and it makes perfect sense in the story that they desperately want him dead. From a narrative perspective, it raises the stakes and deals the first real blow to the Pact since it was formed. From a character perspective, it gives closure to Trahearne’s story in a way that suits the continuing campaign. And he’s no longer as vital to the story as he was – he’s incredibly important to the Pact and all but impossible to replace, but his loss would not be a death blow to the alliance any more.
It’s not a matter of him having outlived his usefulness. It’s not a matter of killing him off for the sheer fun of it because he’s no longer a necessary plot device. Rather, it’s that the most valuable thing his character can do for the story at this point is to be killed – because that will push the story on further, even without him.
The Pale Tree is a city-sized being of immense magical power. It can create a limitless army of smaller minions from its own pods, that are connected telepathically to both the Tree and one another via the Dream. Despite being a Dragon Minion, it is in possession of free will, to the extent that it can grant its own children free will and actively choose the knowledge they are born with. It houses these children within its own body, sending them out to destroy the minions of the other Elder Dragons due to their immunity to the Corruption they spread. The one thing it seems to fear is Mordremoth itself, to the extent that it actively shields their minds from its influence, and the only being we canonically know to have communicated with and openly served Mordremoth was one of the Pale Tree’s rebellious children. It is unquestionably the most powerful creation of Mordremoth seen thus far, it is possessed of abilities and a sense of self that are rivaled only by other Dragon Champions, and it very specifically possesses Free Will to a level that only Glint has ever matched before.
Frankly, if it’s not a Dragon Champion, then presumably Mordremoth’s actual Champions are literal Gods, because they’d have to be in order to be more powerful than the Pale Tree.
So there we go. You wanted evidence to argue that the Pale Tree was a Champion of Mordremoth. How’s that?
EDIT: Sorry for the triple-post, but it was the only way to get all this wall of text out properly. I apologise to the families anyone who died of sheer boredom upon looking at it and solemnly swear I shall never do it again.
(edited by Tipper.7354)
All that said, if we can accept (if only for the purpose of this discussion) that the Sylvari are the creations of Mordremoth, then we can look at the Pale Tree. It’s the origin, home, and leader of the Sylvari Race all at the same time. One sentient being of enormous size, capable of communication through great magical power and creation of an Avatar, that connects to the minds of all of its children. If the Sylvari are Dragon Minions, then the Pale Tree is the greatest of all of them – in a way, it is all of them.
Now, it’s established that Dragon Champions are free-willed, capable of rebellion, and can be active while their masters sleep: we need only look at Glint for that. We also know that Ronan took the Seed of the Pale Tree from a cave with many others like it, guarded by dangerous plants, and carried it far from where he found it, tending to it with Ventari’s help. When it grew, away from the influence of Mordremoth, it had true free will – something possessed only by the most powerful Dragon Minions. It’s no drone or mindless soldier, it’s capable of independent thought. The only Dragon Minion we’ve ever seen capable of actively turning against its master was Glint, an established Champion, and the Pale Tree not only possesses the same level of freedom – it was able to pass that free will onto its children, while retaining a connection to them all through the Dream and making itself into a mother-figure.
There is no doubt that it possesses incredible magical power. It can see the future and grant visions, it protects and guides an entire sentient race, it can create Sylvari at a rate with no known limit, and a single thorn from the Tree was Caladbolg – a blade which was specifically good at destroying the Corruption of another Elder Dragon. And yes, while size is not itself a specific indicator of power, it’s still an enormous, city-sized sentient being with incredible wisdom and intelligence.
Now, none of that was hypothetical. The only thing about all of that which we don’t have absolute proof of is that Mordremoth created the Sylvari race, and there is a lot of evidence to imply that it did. If we grant that single assumption for the purpose of the theory, then when you combine it all and lay it out together, this is what we know to be absolute, factual canon about the Pale Tree…
Look, the Elemental Alignment thing… I can only say so many times that it’s just a perspective for looking at the Elder Dragons and not, in fact, a Canonical Classification that they must adhere to. I like the idea of them aligning to the Elements, I think they kinda fit the molds… you don’t have to agree with me, I’m saying over and over that it’s just a perspective that I like. Any attempt to lay it out factually is doomed from the start because I’m openly acknowledging it’s not a canon thing, so can we agree to disagree on that one?
As for the Pale Tree… well, since this one is less a perspective and more a theory about a factual status, let’s see what we’ve got. You want facts? Here we go.
The first and most obvious thing is to establish that the Sylvari are heavily implied to be Mordremoth’s creations. The Sylvari have only just begun to appear before the awakening of Mordremoth – much like the other Dragons, where their minions mobilised before the Dragon awoke. Their immunity to the Dragon Corruption is something not shared by any other life form save for those already corrupted, which suggests a further connection. Risen do not become Branded, Destroyers do not become Icebrood, and Sylvari don’t become any of them. So either they have a completely random and mysterious immunity to Corruption, or else it’s explained by the fact that they are, effectively, already corrupted.
There’s the obvious artwork of plant-based dragons that others have linked in many cases before. Zone Green of the Crucible of Eternity has an obvious plants-and-nature theme, and Mordremoth himself is officially referred to as the Jungle Dragon. We learn in the Personal Story that the Pale Tree came from a seed found deep in the Maguuma Jungle, and there may be others like it.
If anything, Scarlet Briar is the best evidence. When Cera attempted to look into the Eternal Alchemy, the experiment she underwent was designed to break down barriers in her mind and give her visions of things greater than herself. When she was about to break one last barrier in her mind, the Pale Tree telepathically begged her to stop, but she went on, and encountered the will of Mordremoth. Meaning that the Jungle Dragon’s will was already present in her mind, but hidden and dormant behind a barrier that the Pale Tree knew of, instinctively knew Cera was about to breach, and desperately tried to stop her. That’s pretty unequivocal that the Jungle Dragon had a connection to her mind. And while it’s not in itself solid proof that Mordremoth was able to connect to Cera’s mind specifically because she was Sylvari, the actions of the Pale Tree strongly suggest it was.
Adding it all up, we have the highly-suggestive origins and traits of the Sylvari Race, the few known themes of Mordremoth thus far, and the fact that we’ve only ever seen one of its agents, and that was a Sylvari who found its will existing inside her own mind. I’d say all of that forms reasonably strong evidence that the Sylvari could be the minions of Mordremoth. It answers a lot of existing questions without contradicting anything that we know for certain. It can’t explicitly be proven yet, but then that is sort of the point of theories as opposed to canon fact.
I’m not disputing any of your points about Jormag being the Ice Dragon, nor have I ever said that’s the wrong title for him. He is the Ice Dragon, canonically and literally. I’m just saying that, to my mind, he also fits the theme of Air, especially when compared with the others – Primordius is clearly Fire, the Deep Sea Dragon is clearly water, and I still think that Kralkatorrik’s crystals give him strong links to Earth. When balanced against those, to me at least, Jormag matches up with Air.
I’m not saying that we should start calling him the Air Dragon or anything silly like that, and never suggested anything of the sort. I’m also not saying that my way of looking at the Elder Dragons is mutually exclusive with any other interpretations. Heck, I outright admitted that I’m twisting the lore to suit my perspective here, and I’m not even twisting it especially far – just saying that the six Elder Dragons do, in a lot of ways, match up to the six classical elements. Which is not untrue! And that, from that perspective, Mordremoth could reasonably be seen as the element of Life. I’m not saying you’re wrong, because you’re not, but I’m saying that you being right doesn’t mean that I’m wrong either!
And as for the Pale Tree, come on. Yes, there are big trees and there are special trees and there are magical trees, but you cannot seriously be trying to claim that the Pale Tree isn’t a unique being (so far as we know). There are a lot of things that have similarities, but there are a lot of things that are “sort of similar” to a lot of the other Dragon Champions as well, and that’s completely beside the point. I’m just highlighting that the Pale Tree is a being of great power that is unlike any other creature seen before it, and has implied strong connections to an Elder Dragon, and that this is more than enough to imply that it could be a Champion.
True. Hey, it could even be that the Living World will play out with Mordremoth’s awakening… at which point, rather than being limited content, the campaign against him will be added as an expansion of the Personal Storyline instead. Which would be cool!
Jormag is not air. Jormag is ice. He has nothing related to air.
And Kralkatorrik is crystal, but also utilizes earth, fire, and lightning.
And Mordremoth’s only related element is earth presently. Which Primordus also uses.
So your allignment doesn’t really work.
Well, let’s be fair – if you’re going to unilaterally state that Jormag is not Air, first we have to establish what Air is, and then we have to justify why that’s not him. I’d have thought it was pretty reasonable to say that a Dragon who uses blizzards, storms and subzero temperatures could perfectly reasonably be equated with Air.
And besides, where does it say that because an Elder Dragon is aligned with one Element, they are automatically prevented from using anything but that Element? In the examples of Kralkatorrik or Mordremoth or Primordius seeming to have overlap in their powers, nothing about their themes says that overlapping is against the rules, or even that there are any rules to begin with.
Yes, none of this specifically proves that the Elder Dragons are aligned in the way I suggested, but at the same time it doesn’t in any way disprove it.
What’s most interesting to me in that quote is his list of “elements, vegetation, water” – separating water from elements; it may have been unintentional, but I think those three link to the “themes” of the Elder Dragons. Kralkatorrik, having used lightning, earth, crystal, sand, and fire in his attacks and minions, would be elements; the DSD would be water; and Mordremoth would be vegetation.
Now this could work. More general classifications, and there’s a connection to themes rather than specific classifications. The Dragon of the Ocean, The Dragon of the Jungle, The Dragon of the Deep Earth, The Dragon of the Mountains. Gives more range to their power, less limitation. Though even then, it still means that Mordremoth is more than just The Dragon of Plants.
What is so unusual about a white barked tree? It isn’t like the Pale Tree is the only sentient or magical tree out there.
Urgoz, all treants (oakhearts, mosshearts, willowhearts, and pinesouls), the Ancestor Trees, and the Terebinth are all magical and/or sentient trees in Tyria.
Well yes, but none of those have spawned an entire and seperate sentient race that considers the magical tree to be their mother. They are also not the size of an actual, literal city, and grant visions of the future through an Avatar of themselves. Yeah, there’s nothing so unusual about “A white barked tree”, but you can’t really pretend that The Pale Tree and The Grove are exactly normal or in the same category as a Treant, can you?
Well, I guess that’s fair to say. I’m trying to make the lore fit my theory. But having admitted that, I still think that it does fit.
Kralkatorrik is different to the “Traditional” element of Earth, but think about it: the most obvious show of power was to turn huge swathes of living things into crystalline golems, more or less. And several of the Branded have abilities that revolve around earthquakes, eruptions and explosions. Sure, they’re not throwing literal dirt clods at you (for the most part, that is – some do), but at the end of the day they’re still stones. Just shinier ones.
As for Jormag, he’s described as a “Living Blizzard” which to me suggests wind as much as water. Chilling mists are part of his theme as well. And besides, how would we define Air? For an Elementalist that means lightning, but let’s be fair – lightning isn’t an exact adaptation of air, and it makes just as much sense as cold does.
I know, I know, it’s not perfect, but it does make a certain amount of sense. And the only thing that we do know about the various Elder Dragons’ abilities is that they are supposed to be different to what you’d expect. On Jormag’s wiki page, for example, it links to an interview with Stéphane Lo Presti and Jeff Grubb, where this is mentioned:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png
Worth thinking about, at least. Yeah, it’s a wildly unsubstantiated theory, but it does fit!
Exactly. And the Elemental themes of the Elder Dragons aren’t exactly subtle in the cases of Primordius, Kralkatorrik, Jormag and the Deep Sea Dragon. So if they do fit Fire, Earth, Air and Water, and Zhaitan is Death – which again, is pretty much canon – then having Mordremoth be “Life” rather than “Plants” does seem logical.
And from there, it’s all up to your own interpretation!
It strikes me more that the six Elder Dragons are basically aligned with your classic elements. Each one fits the theme with their appearance, minions and (so far as we know) powers. Primordius is Fire, Jormag is Air, Kralkatorrik is Earth, the Deep Sea Dragon is Water, Zhaitan is Death, and Mordremoth is Life.
There’s a lot of potential crossover and varied interpretations, such as whether Ice should count as Water or Air, and whether Mordremoth’s powers have shown alignment to Earth more than Life, but I think the six Elder Dragons do fit into the pattern fairly well.
That being said – and yes, it’s all completely unfounded speculation, but still – it makes sense that the Dragon of Life is able to grow its own minions rather than spreading traditional corruption. Plants, trees, insects, grubs, oakhearts, wurms, and of course the Sylvari. And if we’re talking about how Dragon Champions take unusual forms, let’s not forget that the Pale Tree is not actually the white Sylvari you meet in The Grove. That’s just her avatar. The Pale Tree is actually the entire Grove itself.
The simple fact is that we don’t know anything for sure yet, but the pieces do fit with what we know so far. As for the rest, I guess we’ll find out soon!
At no point did I say that he was not widely respected, and I’m aware of the implications of his death, which is sort of the point. The Elder Dragons aren’t just mindless beasts, they are extremely intelligent. Trahearne is an excellent leader, and would be nearly impossible to replace, which is why killing him is an incredibly smart tactical move for Mordremoth to make.
I went out of my way to highlight that it’s not a matter of “Kill this guy because the plot no longer needs him!” I simply pointed out that the plot no longer specifically requires this character, because he’s played his strengths to the best possible ends. Having said that, I pointed out that while I like the character, it actually makes sense for him to fall in the coming campaign against Mordremoth.
You’re absolutely right that Trahearne is a widely respected hero and would be nearly impossible to replace as leader of the Pact.
And that is very specifically my point.
So… I think Trahearne is going to die.
Let me explain. Trahearne was, as we all know, a big part of the Personal Storyline. And he was well-suited for it. A scholar of Orr, a Necromancer of formidable power who studied the undead, and a Valiant whose Wyld Hunt was the cleansing of the undead corruption. Well-known and respected by the Three Orders, he was the perfect figurehead to form and lead the pact against Zhaitan.
Except… with the fall of Zhaitan and the conclusion of his Wyld Hunt, every single one of these plot coupons has expired. The same traits that made him perfect to lead this campaign also, by definition, give him no real special qualities that make him a good choice for any other campaigns. To be blunt, the story no longer needs Trahearne.
On top of that, well, Mordremoth is about to get out of bed and go looking for breakfast. Now, if the implied connection between Mordremoth and the Sylvari turns out to be what it looks like, the Sylvari’s famous immunity to the Dragon Corruption might turn out to be not all it’s cracked up to be. Trahearne himself as a Firstborn might even turn out to be especially vulnerable to Mordremoth’s power.
Mordremoth also wants to flex its muscles a bit. With the defeat of Scarlet Briar, it’s time we saw a show of force from the Elder Dragon itself, and as we all know, the traditional way to do that is to find an In-Universe Hero and grind him into a fine paste. The Marshal of the Pact is one of the most famous and respected heroes in Tyria, and he also just so happens to be leading an alliance that exists to fight the Elder Dragons. Tactically speaking, Mordremoth has a lot to gain by going out of its way to squish him.
Also, and I hate to break the Fourth Wall, but it must be said… Trahearne’s had his popularity issues. Now speaking for myself, I liked the character and thought he was a vital part of the story. I thought it suited the story better with the player character not being the leader of the Pact and Trahearne filled the role well. But escorting him everywhere so that everyone in Tyria could compliment him for things that I’d done… even as one of his fans I’ll admit that there’s a faint whiff of the Mary Sue here.
Now none of this actually means anything yet, they’re just observations on the character, but this is where the twist kicks in. The sixth Elder Dragon is waking up. The Pact exists for the sole purpose of fighting the Elder Dragons. When Mordremoth starts to flex its muscles, the Pact is pretty much guaranteed to get involved because of course they are. As leader of the Pact, Trahearne is definitely going to be there.
In short, the Living World story can’t simply ignore the fact that he exists. The story absolutely has to do something with his character at some point in the near future. And as much as it pains me to say this as a fan of his, the best thing I can see his character doing at this point in the story is, well, dying.
There’s a lot of ways it could happen and I’ll refrain from speculating on those until the story unfolds further. There’s a lot of twists that could happen as a result of his death. Certainly the implications of Mordremoth’s awakening and the upcoming chapters of the Living Story have definitely got me interested and excited. But I just can’t shake the feeling that wherever the story goes… Trahearne’s role in it might just come to a short sharp stop.
Thoughts?
For some odd reason, I’m unable to purchase anything from the trading post.
When I enter the trading post, I don’t get Item Descriptions when I hover my mouse over an item, and don’t know what the stats are. I’m able to run searches for items, and get lists, but if I select an item, I cannot purchase it. I have enough money, I’m of a high enough level, and the item is not unavailable, but the “BUY” button is greyed out and I cannot click it.
Has anyone else had this issue, and perhaps has a theory as to how it could be fixed? It’s extremely frustrating! I’m running around at level 20 with level 12 gear here, and I cannot get any new stuff!