Guild Wars 2

Galen Grey.4709:

Its a story…. whats the alternative…. Scarlet wins, Krait and Nightmare court turn out to be unbeatable, nightmare tower here to stay cause players cant do anything about it?

Tower is indestructible/potentially too dangerous to be destroyed. Scarlet dies, Toxic Alliance decides to stay together under new leadership. There are really a lot of ways you can go.

A Massive Headache.1879:

This thread seems to be largely about entitled whining. They can’t add new traits when they still need to rework the ones that are currently in for starters, and the things that won’t be in by the end of the year they’ve already talked about. Some of the items on the list, like pvp legendaries, I don’t believe were ever even given an actual deadline. and Wintersday has always been december into january content. and there’s been no talk of fractals so I’m sure that’s still at least on track.

I don’t see it as “entitled whining”, I see it as valid criticism on how Anet is going about adding content. A lot of these game changing and exciting features are taking longer because Anet has decided to put all their eggs in the living story basket. And I think most can agree it has mixed results at best. Sure it keeps a lot of players playing to some degree, but for how long? There really hasn’t been a whole lot in exciting changes this last year that wow me, just more and more LS content. And with no expansion on the horizon, it has me worried on what is going to keep me logging in. LS is really wearing me down. Most of it is just mediocre with a few flashes of brilliance and the occasional flat out “disasters”. Less focus on LS and more focus on those features above would make this game better and that is something I firmly believe and hope to see.

Ah the age old spawn camp whine (also technically this isn’t even spawn camping). And the solution hasn’t changed either, play better. If you can’t push the enemy out of your spawn, where you have the advantage of a quick run back, how can you expect to do anything regardless?

Jamais vu.5284:

Valenthor.4052:

Anet, the only MMO developer that removes content from their game.

This is obviously your first MMO.

No it is not. I forgot to add the one year after release.

Heinel.6548:

Valenthor.4052:

It will be a permanent dungeon, but you will have to sacrifice an already existing dungeon. Anet, the only MMO developer that removes content from their game.

Are people still seriously harping on about this?
All other MMOs phase out old content and leave them barren. Be glad Anet actually take the time to reclaim unused areas and make them new.

Thank you Anet for giving me less to do. Most Triple A MMOs revamp areas it isn’t anything we need to praise them for and bow at their feet. Also I should of denoted the only MMO to remove content one year off of release, as in not after SEVERAL expansions later.

It will be a permanent dungeon, but you will have to sacrifice an already existing dungeon. Anet, the only MMO developer that removes content from their game.

KOPPER.1458:

“Because if they change anything someone wouldn’t be able to experience it, and that would be a bad thing, right?”

I answer for him/her.

Yes

You sure like to generalize people and put words in their mouth. Without saying really anything of substance at all.

This game is a year old. WoW was something like 5+ years old before they revamped their old world content, to many player’s dismay. Yes, players are going to go back and play them or, here is a shocker, play them for the first time. Not everyone has done every drop of content yet. Apparently, you also forget that there are new players to this game as well (free weekend this week).

This may be Anet’s new method of revamping content, I sure hope a piece of content you like won’t get replaced by a slapped-on living story element. I have no idea why any MMO company would be “weary” of giving their players too much to do. Let me file that one away as one of the most non-problem problems I have ever heard. To your last point, this is content being removed for the sake of removing content. I don’t think it’s so technically difficult to add another path, this is their way of “revamping” the path.

Any generalization of people is never correct “most of the time”. Unless you are an all-seeing god who can pierce the mind and souls of men. You have zero idea why people are “up in arms” about the issue, beyond what they say. Spare us your “wisdom” of our own internal thoughts.

Vol.5241:

KOPPER.1458:

players are only up in arms because something is being removed. Doesn’t matter what it is, and they would still be “up in arms”

^ this this this

Or pretty much anything Anet does, there will be someone to whine for the sake of whining.

Give everybody 10g upon dungeon completion, someone will whine.
Give a precursor at end of personal story, someone will whine.
Introduce new WvW maps, someone will whine.

Doesn’t matter if it’s good overall. Any minute negative detail will be exposed by the forumites and overblown.

Yes, everyone who complains about anything is a whiner. There are no legitimate arguments, this game is perfect. We all should sit silently and bow to our Anet lords. These “generalize everyone who complains” arguments are as tired and old as the people who whine all the day to begin with. Please stop.

Every MMO player should be up in arms about content REMOVAL. MMOs are built on the very aspect of tons of content with new stuff added in, NOT REPLACED. This sets a bad precedent, instead of improving/fixing existing content it gets replaced in a messy, retconned way to satisfy the current story line. I was under the impression that content from the base game would not be subject to just disappearing like the living story stuff, apparently I was wrong. I am especially worried if this is their way of revamping dungeons that they talk about previously. Make a dungeon for the living story and somehow force it into an existing “bad” path. This game is barely a year old and we are already taking content out, baffles my mind.

I agree wholeheartedly with this thread. I literally stop playing the game for a week to wait till it died down to see if maybe I could get to a non-overflow attempt. I finally got a kill on my home server (Blackgate) last night and it was a blast. This is event has clearly shown the failures of the overflow system, the guesting system, and trying to put raid-esque content in the open world.

AcidicVision.5498:

You dudes need to cut it out or you’re going to get this dude in more trouble. Trust me, the message you think you are sending or trying to send is not going to get the reaction you are hoping for.

I will not “trust” you. I fail to see how staying silently dissatisfied with ANet benefits anyone.

Adamantium.3682:

It makes sense that it would put unfair pressure on the other devs to be extremely active on the forums. For that reason alone I understand. I’ll miss the interaction and I wish all devs could do that, but that’s not realistic and I understand.

Back on topic, anyone try it after the patch late tonight?

Not realistic? Who says? Why are you willing to settle on no interaction with a company you are sending money to?

I feel like game companies have little to no idea how to deal with community interaction. In a world where communication is practically instant they are more afraid of any perceived negative responses instead of actually giving fans responses at all. Stop trying to please everyone on the internet, they are always going to be people complaining and whining that a dev hurt their poor feelings. As long as the dev isn’t attacking individual players and going crazy then any interaction is good. Right now, I feel like the customers, who purchased your product, have to beg and plead for any interaction and when we get one is PR speak. What they fail to realize is your customers will generally respond VERY favorably to honest and informative (as much as they can give at the time) dev posts. It’s that simple, stop listening to marketing/PR who over analyze every “negative” response.

Pandeh.5248:

Valenthor.4052:

Tolmos.8395:

Karizee.8076:

Valenthor.4052:

Most GW2 boss encounters can’t hold a candle to WoW’s finer boss fights

Hahaha. As an ex-WoW hardcore raider, those “finer fights” boil down to gear checks with trinity training wheels. Tank takes aggro, healers play whackamole, Dps autopilot rotations and every now and then you stack or spread out and get out of the fire. Addons tell you what to do when and the fights are tuned so they cannot be completed with current gear thus giving the illusion of ‘progressing’.

I agree with this. After 4 years of hardcore WoW raiding, starting in 40 mans and ending in 20-25 mans, it pretty much comes down to trinity basics + simon says. The only job that could maybe be remotely difficult is the healer. I main tanked and was one of the main healers (there is no single “main healer” in a 40 or 20 man raid) for the majority of those 4 years. We were always on the cutting edge, and competing with world firsts on each of those raids. I never once felt like it required actual skill on my part, or really the part of anyone else in the group. It just required a basic game of simon says and for me not to mess up my rotation. Every once in a while a boss would have a strange mechanic that required me to not hit them at a specific time, to stand in a specific spot… simon says, basically.

So it’s not a matter of preferring individual skill over group skill… it’s a matter of preferring to be challenged myself, as opposed to standing around being bored and pretending like I’m supposed to be challenged, when in fact I am not.

You basically proved my point. MMOs will never be a good taste of individual skill by nature. They are designed to be played in a group. You aren’t supposed to feel “I am so good!”, you are supposed to feel “We did it!”. A bunch of simple jobs all executed to perfection by each member of the group to accomplish something. The challenge comes in organizing all the group to function that way. I take it you have never tried to raid lead? Or build a guild from the ground up? That is where MMOs succeed, not on individual skill. And I wish more MMOs realized that.

GW2 does this how?

Dungeons> face roll (Except Arah some parts)

General PvE> zerg fest

WvW > Yes, it does require origination to an extent. But in most scenarios it’s numbers vs numbers.

Dunno really where GW2 succeeds in any of those points you said.

It doesn’t. I wasn’t arguing that it does. In fact, I would argue it is significantly worse in that department compared to most MMOs. Especially on the PvE side.

Tolmos.8395:

Karizee.8076:

Valenthor.4052:

Most GW2 boss encounters can’t hold a candle to WoW’s finer boss fights

Hahaha. As an ex-WoW hardcore raider, those “finer fights” boil down to gear checks with trinity training wheels. Tank takes aggro, healers play whackamole, Dps autopilot rotations and every now and then you stack or spread out and get out of the fire. Addons tell you what to do when and the fights are tuned so they cannot be completed with current gear thus giving the illusion of ‘progressing’.

I agree with this. After 4 years of hardcore WoW raiding, starting in 40 mans and ending in 20-25 mans, it pretty much comes down to trinity basics + simon says. The only job that could maybe be remotely difficult is the healer. I main tanked and was one of the main healers (there is no single “main healer” in a 40 or 20 man raid) for the majority of those 4 years. We were always on the cutting edge, and competing with world firsts on each of those raids. I never once felt like it required actual skill on my part, or really the part of anyone else in the group. It just required a basic game of simon says and for me not to mess up my rotation. Every once in a while a boss would have a strange mechanic that required me to not hit them at a specific time, to stand in a specific spot… simon says, basically.

So it’s not a matter of preferring individual skill over group skill… it’s a matter of preferring to be challenged myself, as opposed to standing around being bored and pretending like I’m supposed to be challenged, when in fact I am not.

You basically proved my point. MMOs will never be a good taste of individual skill by nature. They are designed to be played in a group. You aren’t supposed to feel “I am so good!”, you are supposed to feel “We did it!”. A bunch of simple jobs all executed to perfection by each member of the group to accomplish something. The challenge comes in organizing all the group to function that way. I take it you have never tried to raid lead? Or build a guild from the ground up? That is where MMOs succeed, not on individual skill. And I wish more MMOs realized that.

Karizee.8076:

Valenthor.4052:

Most GW2 boss encounters can’t hold a candle to WoW’s finer boss fights

Hahaha. As an ex-WoW hardcore raider, those “finer fights” boil down to gear checks with trinity training wheels. Tank takes aggro, healers play whackamole, Dps autopilot rotations and every now and then you stack or spread out and get out of the fire. Addons tell you what to do when and the fights are tuned so they cannot be completed with current gear thus giving the illusion of ‘progressing’.

Top tier raiders clear new fights with inferior gear all the time. WoW is very forgiving in the gear check department. Unless of course, your guild is struggling then that’s where the gear comes in. It is used more as a “okay you have spent too much time on this boss, here’s some gear, move on”. I question how far you actually raided into the game, if that is what you think WoW raiding is. Every fight was patchwork, according to you.

Tolmos.8395:

Since I started MMOing in 1997, I have found very VERY few PvE encounters that I considered to require any level of “skill”. I was a hardcore raider in college (the free time allowed it), raiding for 4 of my 5 years in WoW and almost all of my 1.5 in Rift (didn’t really raid in the rest of the games I played, since I mostly played them for PvP). 90% of that raiding was as the main tank or one of the main healers in the raid. In all of that time, I can count the number of fights that I felt required true “skill” one 1 hand.

Liadri is in that category.

Because of the Liadri fight, I had to realize the flaws in my playstyle and my reaction speed, as well as create a new build specifically for the fight. Even with all of that, it was still probably one of the most difficult (by way of player skill) encounters I’ve seen in an MMO to date, if not THE most difficult.

It wasn’t about arbitrarily bigger numbers on my armor, or whether the tank knew the rotation of the AOEs or anything like that. It is about timed dodges while keeping up with your environment. It was about MY ability to play, not my ability to rely on someone else to keep me afloat. Any single mistake meant the end of the match And I loved every second of it.

So thank you. The mini I received from that encounter is probably the first virtual item, far above and beyond any “tier #” gear I RNGed into in a raid, that I actually feel accomplished having and showing off.

Definitely hope to see more like this fight in the future.

You value individual skill over group skill. I wonder why you play MMOs to be honest. Most GW2 boss encounters can’t hold a candle to WoW’s finer boss fights (assuming one refers to 25mans/heroic). I find most of Arena Net’s boss design to be mediocre at best and rely mainly on two factors. Tons of health and dodge. Only recently have they gotten better and I look forward to trying out Liadri. But it’s a solo fight and I will always find those fun, but nothing truly as memorable as many raid-esque fights I have done in other games.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

You aren’t dealing enough damage to qualify for loot. As the amount of people damaging a monster grows, so does the damage requirement.

I’m sorry but that’s not true. Some champions I’m hitting for a minute with everything I have and get nothing. Others I hit once just before they die and get a chest.
I only have this problem with the ember farm though.

Read the second sentence again and think about how many people are at the ember farm. Hint: It’s a lot more than any other champion farm. Couple this with culling and any non-AoE weapon and you get that issue. I suggest getting in a group, preferably with staff guardians (good AoE that tags through culling), and make sure everyone is focus firing a target.

There is nothing inherently imbalanced about stealth in video games. It can be balanced or unbalanced depending on how it is implemented. To suggest otherwise, is severely discrediting the ability of developers to balance their game. There are many disadvantages to stealth (which you conveniently ignored and makes me want to discredit your whole opinion) that have been added to various games to counter the advantages. It has worked in many games with great success and stealth is an extremely fun game mechanic for some people. Stop trying to ruin other people’s fun because you happen to not like it. Essentially, this thread can be summed up as a thinly veiled QQ post with lots of words.

P.S. I rarely ever play a stealth character and if I do it is an alt.

Mitch.4781:

I love the game. I love the art, I love the mechanics and I love the fact that they tried to do something different regarding trinity. But as a loyal GW2 gamer and someone who played GW1 for 6 years, I can’t help but feel the last few patches have been utterly underwhelming.

They clearly have some very talented people at ANET. Great artists especially, but the potential and excitement of where the game could go has been worryingly deteriorating at a rapid pace. For me, the last REAL update content wise was fractals. An enjoyable update to the game that kinda gave it a mini raid feel without all the hassle that comes with a classic mmo raid.

Yet since then, what really has been added to the game in any meaningful way? Yes there have been updates to W v w and PvP, but as I rarely participate in those, I feel that the core playerbase of the PVE world has largely been neglected. The rot set in with the Karka event..Ill conceived, bugged and although it introduced a new area, it felt Spartan and unfinished with absolutely NO reason to go there other than a bit of gathering.

The guild bounties etc have also been poorly implemented imo too. What you basically have is guilds sending out members to find said mobs and then after a chore of a search we all gank them and that’s it..Sorry, this is dull as and not immersive in anyway. It’s also no where near as exciting in practise as we were led to believe.

And then we have Flame and Frost. Possibly THE single most underwhelming and pointless update yet. First off..no one cares. Seriously..no one gives a kitten at all. We are not emotionally involved AT AL! I have yet to speak so a single player in game who found the event..if you can call it that..anything other than a chore. It didn’t help by starting off with a main feature on the website, yet all you did was build a few sign posts for a few months. Now after all this build up, we find out the Dredge are involved. Do Anet realise that after the risen, most people hate fighting the dredge?

But mostly, the profession balance. Ordinarily, I really don’t complain about profession tweaking and one class over the other but in GW2’s case, its really really hard to ignore the fact that Rangers are getting screwed over and warriors are top dog. But no one knows why? They really can’t understand it..and who can blame them?

Like I say, its cos I love the game so much and its cos I CARE that im making this post, but I can’t help feeling really disappointed at the direction of the game. I already ditched WOW and SWTOR for this game, and tbh now I’m simply thinking MMO’s are not for me. ANET could do worse than examine the masters of MMO’s..yes Blizzard and really investigate why an 8 year old game still trounces every new mmo release to the market…The simple answer is it listens. And Content..lots of it. They have a brand new 12 boss raid…what do we have?? Banging some fences in the snow and npcs we could care less for…

Really Anet? I respect your artistry, but I really sometimes wonder if you gusy actually paly your own game

Guild missions are just as big as fractals for PvE (I hear there is also PvP). I think they are a lot of fun. The problem is they decided to put a huge gating mechanic behind the missions, so all we are doing is farming bounties for a long time. Wait to try them out or don’t and stop playing. GW2 still has a lot of potential, despite your opinion. People need to realize that not every ounce of content is created solely for them, there are MILLIONS of players that all have different play-styles and tastes. This is demonstrated quite easily in this post, which kind of spells out a doomsday situation for GW2 and conveniently ignores all aspects of the game that don’t apply to their personal tastes.

Also your portrayal of Blizzard isn’t completely accurate, as they used to be extremely slow at releasing new content. In addition, they are not the consumer herald you claim them to be. They have always done what they think is best, no matter what the community thinks. Listening to your customers on everything would be bad business anyway, so I don’t blame them (face it, customers rarely see the big picture). It is also funny to me that you list their new raid, but leave out the fact that they have not added in new 5 man dungeons yet. I guess you only seem to care about content that suits you.

I agree this system is far too grindy, punishing, and complex. I have no idea what made them think this was a good system. Small guilds are pretty much crushed.

Vayne.8563:

Valenthor.4052:

I think your idea that Arenanet appealed this game to a certain “kind” of audience is completely unfounded and baffling to me. They want to appeal to as many people as they can, so they can make more money (I know shocking). This is a full on triple A MMO, this isn’t some kickstarter niche game. I think they made this game with many concepts that are outside the norm, but also kept many standard features with a few tweaks. This isn’t black and white, stop trying to turn it into an us against them (those that like GW2 and those that like the traditional MMOs). Shades of gray people, shades of gray.

There’s a reason why people feel it’s an us and them situation…and not an unreasonable one.

There are people, quite a few of us, who don’t like MMOs at all. I’ve always seen the potential of MMOs, but I’ve never found one I could play…until now. The reason people are so bent out of shape over gear progression is fear. Fear that this game will become like other games and will suddenly be out of reach for them. In a way, Anet themselves set this up by saying, “If you love MMOs you’ll want to check out Guild Wars 2 and if you hate MMOs you’re REALLY want to check out Guild Wars 2.”

For some people this is the only playable MMO on the market right now. And every time Anet makes a change away from people’s “gold standard”, they take it personally.

I think too many people have been burned too many times to believe it won’t happen again.

First off, let’s not all get wrapped up in marketing spin and quotes made pre-release. It was fairly clear from beta that this wasn’t a totally new experience, but more of a different take on the standard MMO. Honestly, I don’t know how anyone can hate traditional MMOs and love this game. This game has much the same systems, except toned down to a more casual scale. Sounds to me more like a philosophical battle than a real gameplay problem for some people. Regardless, there is no reason to fear drastic change. They have a successful game here, that I am sure will be around for years to come. Nothing they have said or done shows a drastic departure from their “manifesto” (inc ascended gear QQers, sorry that wasn’t drastic). They aren’t going to upset the applecart to just suddenly make another WoW clone.

Morena.9604:

*If you like gear progression… this game isn’t for you
*If you like playing a certain role in trinity… this game isn’t for you
*If you like raids… this game isn’t for you
*If you like mounts… this game isn’t for you
*If you like amateur pvp with different modes… this game isn’t for you
*If you like semi-amateur pvp with ladders etc like wow… this game isn’t for you
*If you like pro-pvp like moba… this game isn’t for you
*If you like real open world pvp… this game isn’t for you
*Most importantly if you like to have a goal… this game isn’t for you

‘this game isn’t for you’ is a common reply to many posts and it is sadly and actually a true reply for the most posts. I really believe that devs prepared this game for a really specific(even unique) type of a player base.

-But there is gear progression, it is just on a much easier/smaller scale than most MMOs (hello ascended gear!). I like gear progression and I like this game.

-Agree to a point, they will never change to a trinity. I like the trinity and I think this game would of been better with it. However, I still enjoy this aspect as a change of pace from most MMOs.

-Agree, raids don’t fit into this game. However, people who like raids actually just want large, guild centered, challenging PvE content. Hello guild missions (just need a way for small guilds to compete).

-I suppose mounts won’t be added, but I see it as a much too tempting cash grab to not add them in. Everyone likes mounts when they are done right (no flying mounts).

-The funny thing about your PvP points is before the game was released Arenanet tried very hard to push the competitive aspect of it and it appears they still want to achieve that goal, so we will see. In addition, I think the open world PvPers can get their fix in WvW, it’s much the same thing with a little more organization.

I think your idea that Arenanet appealed this game to a certain “kind” of audience is completely unfounded and baffling to me. They want to appeal to as many people as they can, so they can make more money (I know shocking). This is a full on triple A MMO, this isn’t some kickstarter niche game. I think they made this game with many concepts that are outside the norm, but also kept many standard features with a few tweaks. This isn’t black and white, stop trying to turn it into an us against them (those that like GW2 and those that like the traditional MMOs). Shades of gray people, shades of gray.

Name one triple A, large community (500,000+), successful MMO that has zero tier geared system. Because I can’t think of any. The only way I could see that working is in a very excellent sandbox MMO, which this was clearly never intended to be. Face the facts, the vast majority prefer “grinding” for gear. It has been around forever and is the simplest form of “fun” in an RPG. But guess what? It still is VERY effective. You are in the minority, I am sorry. Take satisfaction in that this game comes very close and look for future sandbox games for your “perfect” experience.

Stats. Item name is just way too minor to even be noticeable most of the time. The only time you are really going to notice it…is when you go to buy it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Valenthor.4052:

Is there really a GOOD reason why MF should be allowed in dungeons and not just shared/automatically applied? Can’t we all at least agree that it is a bad game mechanic in group play?

I’ve always disliked “lucky” gear in any RPG I’ve played, because there’s always those few things weighted in the loot rolls to have a less than 1% drop rate. The lucky gear was supposedly to allow people to get it easier, though that’s not . . . quite how probability works.

Magic Find falls in the same category, but I didn’t find it so detestable here maybe because it didn’t seem as impactful as . . . say, it was in Diablo 2. (Even worse, in Diablo 2 it was possible to have that hard-won jumped-up loot ninjasnatched by a “friend”.) I suppose it’s that nobody gets to see how much you’re using or even what drops for you unless you tell them. And even then, well, there’s accusations of dishonesty since nobody’s quite really . . . sure.

You know what would be interesting? If when you weren’t grouped it only worked for you, but if your party had an averaged-out bonus where you take the MF of everyone there and divide it by the members active. And people would still complain it was useless, worthless, and weakening the party :P

(That’s not a strawman for the people who want it gone, that’s more like “I’ve been around the internet long enough to know better”.)

It’s an okay solution and would probably quiet the discussion down a lot. It would then only come up if there were wipes and lack of progress. I personally just want the stat gone from group play, as I am sure WvW players don’t like it either. There is nothing compelling or interesting about it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rezzet.3614:

you wont even notice the MF on skilled players even i trash dungeons in a blink with MF gear. so its more a L2P issue.

I’m more worried about the people who might see me getting killed, decide I’m wearing MF gear and kick me even though I don’t have any on anymore.

Yep. I hate how divisive it is. It is completely against everything GW2 stands for and I expect it to change at some point.

My Dead Characters.9517:

this thread is no longer inviting constructive critisism. Moderators, please close this thread as it is just a “blah blah blah mean comment mean comment” "blah blah blah mean comment mean comment. im looking at you tobias and valenthor>.>

Please quote a mean comment of mine that wasn’t constructive. Thank you.

Julie Yann.5379:

I agree that there are situations where MF is not warranted and I think the problem is the a lot of people don’t know when to take it off. In most dungeons MF is pointless cause half the time the mods are skipped and half the mobs don’t drop a thing anyway. Fractals past 30 MF is not recommended, except for Maw, second half of Ascalon (if you are good enough to stay alive), middle part of the dredge (If you are good enough to stay alive), and the first half of the Aquatic Ruins (If you are good enough to stay alive). I agree, if your party is struggling, take it off. If you are struggling, take it off but if all is going smoothly, keep it on. To outright call it useless and people who use it selfish is wrong cause in a way you are selfish as well. You want people to play like you so that your runs go better and that you can improve your time invested/reward ratio. You can try and hide behind the whole “for the good of the entire party” argument all you want but in the end it’s your time and what you want to be reward for it and you are even more selfish cause you are trying to impose your way of thinking to achieve your goal. We all are selfish, it’s just human nature to look out for yourself first.

This is not the military where people actually die if you are not at the top of your game, it’s just a flipping video game and everyone should be able to be play and enjoy it the way they want without discrimination because they paid for it too.

This thread is just going to go on forever, like countless other MF argument threads and nobody is ever going to agree on the subject. In my mind it should be closed and the argument ended.

Oh where do I start. Last I checked everyone has the mutual goal to get through the dungeon, correct? I don’t see people having their goal set on wiping repeatedly to the same fight over and over. No bosses die if no one works together, it’s kind of the whole point of GROUP content. If you want to do things your way, with no scrutiny, then there is plenty of other content to indulge in. You criticize me for calling out players that selfishly choose MF gear because it is their right to play the way they want. Of course it is, but it is also the group’s right to not want to carry said individuals especially when the group is struggling and the individuals choose to purposely hide their intentions. Apparently, the idea of working as a team is a foreign concept to some people.

Many people are calling for a thread close to end the discussion. The problem is people keep getting off track, including me. Is there really a GOOD reason why MF should be allowed in dungeons and not just shared/automatically applied? Can’t we all at least agree that it is a bad game mechanic in group play?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Valenthor.4052:

It amazes me to no end the amount of rationalization MF leeches will go to justify their leeching. The stat helps no one but yourself, it is purely selfish. Any other stat would be better to the group, it doesn’t matter how marginal it would be. Stop rationalizing that the “extra stats wouldn’t matter” or “my skill can somehow surpass all game mechanics”. Since when was it okay to not be the best you can be? Since when can you spam dodge and dps while dodging? Since when do numbers not matter in a MMORPG?

Some MF defender please tell me how is it any better than someone rolling in all blues and asking to be carried? And don’t tell me that you would be okay carrying them because we all know that is a flat out lie, as soon as you wipe once. And before you get all excited, I am fully aware you can wear MF and not wipe. Speed becomes important as soon as people know the routine and just farm it for whatever. And guess what? Every number matters when you want speed. I feel like, all of a sudden, people want to change decades of common gaming etiquette because the shinnies are too tempting. In what other game is it okay and accepted to not be trying your best for pure greed? Apparently someone trolling your dungeon with purposely done lesser gear (for his own personal lawls) should be accepted because that is the path some of you suggest is okay.

All right, assuming I concede the point (I’m not, but we’ll assume I did). Assuming that not being the absolute best I could be is detrimental to any group I would join, MF, GF or neither . . .

What exactly should I be putting on my character to make him the best? And if I go with something else, we’ve already established it’s not good for a group, since it’s not the best and I made the choice not to.

I’m trying to see if this is what you’re suggesting in turn . . . that unless I am running a specific set of armor numerically identical to what you determined was “the best”, I should not be grouping. Am I correct?

No. Stop turning this MF debate into a debate about elitism. It is pretty difficult to have a “best” build in this game by it’s nature, but this is besides the point. The key is intention. There is a big difference between someone trying their best to help the group and someone who intentionally puts on a MF stat that helps only them and hurts the rest of the group. Especially when the group is struggling. If you are breezing through and let the group know you are going MF than it really doesn’t matter. Problem is most people will just hide it and leech, even when the group is struggling.

Ehra.5240:

Valenthor.4052:

Excellent argument skills. Just label everyone who disagrees with you as “elitist”

Kind of like how you’ve been throwing out the word selfish or accusing people who use gear you don’t like of being trolls, right? Come on, no one is buying the victim card you’re trying to play here. And, seriously, a huge lol at you trying to equate being called an “elitist” for throwing a fit over a player’s gear rarity to a personal insult directed at a person’s body type.

There’s all sorts of crazy going on in this thread right now so I think I’m going to call it quits for now. At the rate this thread’s going, it won’t be long until someone goes on about how Necromancers trying to join a dungeon are selfish for not playing a glass cannon Warrior instead.

And FYI, I don’t run Fractals.

edit:

And you think you are being clever? Putting words in people’s mouth isn’t making good points. You are so caught up on labeling me an “elitist” you can’t even see anything past that. Totally misunderstood what I was even saying. Someone is sensitive.

First you assumed that if someone had a suboptimal build then they didn’t know any better. Then you said if they didn’t take advice on their build for “selfish” reasons like playstyle or RP then they deserve ridicule. That was your exact argument, didn’t need to put any words into your mouth at all.

Selfish isn’t a stereotype label to generalize a group of people. Selfish is an intention. Explain to me how choosing MF is not selfish in almost any context. You threw around the word “elitist” to try and say my point is wrong because I belong to some group, this isn’t my first rodeo in the poor internet argument land.

If we are wiping and struggling through a dungeon and I ask you “What spec are you?”. And you respond, “0/0/0, I am RPing a character that doesn’t use traits”. I am going to ask you to change, maybe make fun of you if you are an kitten about it, and if not kick you. When you enter a group environment, you are required to at least try your best to help the group. Not do whatever you want because it suits you. Welcome to normal human social interaction in any group environment. Stop with the slippery slope fallacy, it doesn’t lead to suddenly nobody inviting Necros. Nor do I personally review everyone’s spec (nice exaggeration btw!) and go on witchhunts when they have a “different” spec. You act as if this is black and white, either allow everyone to do whatever the hell they want or the evil elitist control the world. Some things are allowed and some are not, call it common sense, gamer etiquette, whatever you want it exists in every community.

Ehra.5240:

“People who don’t use the best builds are just ignorant, except when they aren’t in which case they’re selfish for not changing their character to meet my whims.”

And you think you’re helping your case

And you think you are being clever? Putting words in people’s mouth isn’t making good points. You are so caught up on labeling me an “elitist” you can’t even see anything past that. Totally misunderstood what I was even saying. Someone is sensitive.

Ehra.5240:

It amazes me to no end that people QQing about MF try to gussy their outrage up as an argument about what’s “fair” rather than that blatant elitism it is.

“Oh dear, you mean there might be people with blues in my PUG dungeon run!?” Monocle pops out. Record scratches to a halt. Closeup on comedic relief character making a funny face with a “huuuuuuuuuuuhgh??!” sound dubbed over.

Excellent argument skills. Just label everyone who disagrees with you as “elitist”, a loosely held together insult akin to calling someone a fat nerd who takes games too seriously. It is a lot harder to put your big boy pants on and think of counter points isn’t it? This where I call you a terrible mouth breathing casual who facerolls his way to exotics.

Enjoy doing harder level fractals with someone in all blues. No, and this will shock you, I really don’t care if you are in blues and we are breezing through the dungeon. But as soon as we struggle and not killing anything, yeah you bet I am going to question things. The MF choice should be removed by Arenanet in group play, a selfish stat doesn’t fit in a group environment.

Ehra.5240:

Yeah, like I said earlier. It comes down to people getting upset because they feel they’re entitled to some imaginary run that COULD have gone a few minutes faster if their party members had done X thing differently. And there are a huge number of things that X could be, but for some reason only MF gear gets people upset enough to start throwing out insults.

The answer is simple. You purposely chose to equip MF for purely selfish reasons. You knew exactly what you were doing and decided your drops were more important than any group concept. You decided that being lesser in a group environment was okay, so you can get dem shinnies.

Other sub-optimal builds are mostly done out of ignorance or poor choices. There was no intentional choice to screw the group and they often can be educated. If they refuse to accept any criticism for whatever selfish reason (RP, style etc) then they are ridiculed for not helping the group. I also aware that some builds are good on certain fights, so optimal build is very debatable in this game. But there is no debate for MF, it doesn’t help you preform at all.

Be right back guys, someone paid me 50 bucks to play a pickup basketball game with one of my fingers taped up. After all, it’s just one finger I am 100% sure it will have no effect on the game. I am sure they won’t mind, so I can get my money. Although I sure wish I could hide it, like MF, that way they would never know I was being selfish! (yay anonymity!!!)

It amazes me to no end the amount of rationalization MF leeches will go to justify their leeching. The stat helps no one but yourself, it is purely selfish. Any other stat would be better to the group, it doesn’t matter how marginal it would be. Stop rationalizing that the “extra stats wouldn’t matter” or “my skill can somehow surpass all game mechanics”. Since when was it okay to not be the best you can be? Since when can you spam dodge and dps while dodging? Since when do numbers not matter in a MMORPG?

Some MF defender please tell me how is it any better than someone rolling in all blues and asking to be carried? And don’t tell me that you would be okay carrying them because we all know that is a flat out lie, as soon as you wipe once. And before you get all excited, I am fully aware you can wear MF and not wipe. Speed becomes important as soon as people know the routine and just farm it for whatever. And guess what? Every number matters when you want speed. I feel like, all of a sudden, people want to change decades of common gaming etiquette because the shinnies are too tempting. In what other game is it okay and accepted to not be trying your best for pure greed? Apparently someone trolling your dungeon with purposely done lesser gear (for his own personal lawls) should be accepted because that is the path some of you suggest is okay.

Use what you think looks good. Ignore trends/trying too hard to be unique.

EverythingXen.1835:

Thoughtless.7148:

if everyone has it, is it really legendary? of course you want a Lamborghini for the price of a civic…everyone would jump at that chance.

What you have right now isnt a Legendary either.

You didnt work hard for it. You farmed dirt easy dragon events until you won the lottery. You did nothing that comes remotely close to “legendary”.

There’s no prestigious connotation with Legendaries anymore (like in your Lamborghini analogy). The only people with them are either lucky, no life farmers, or stupid and rich… none of them are legendary.

I disagree. There are aspects of it that are prestigious, let’s not go crazy. The 100% map completion, dungeon tokens (although should be more), and WvW tokens to show that the player has done many different things. The precursor aspect of it is obviously not one of those prestigious things. The act that you can buy it straight off the TP does kill it a little, but how many can really afford to do that?

It doesn’t matter if you think they are fine, ArenaNet does not agree. They have said they don’t like the precursor market at the moment and they will do something to remedy it. Whether that’s scavenger hunt, drop rates, or something totally new remains to be seen. It is fairly obvious the ever increasing price was not an intended design decision.

Your whole position is based on the fact that you were lucky enough to get one and now justify it with how you “worked hard” to get it. Well there are a lot of people “working hard” to get it and if you were one of those people I seriously doubt you would be of the same opinion. This super RNG aspect of the legendary is just not fun and poorly designed, a relic of the past as it were. All the other steps are fine and allow for any player to slowly work their way up. But with precursors ever increasing prices, with no end in sight, the final step will be out of reach. The precursor should be some legendary style, long, maybe a little grindy quest. Something people actually remember, not “I bought it off the TP” or “I spammed 2 on easymode dragon fights” memories.

Finally, I find it laughable that you even consider dragon fights “work”, as you can literally afk/autoshoot and get your precursor. Not epic, bad game design. End of story.

Please name the triple A MMOs that have released more content in this amount of time. Prove it.

Unlucky + possible DR (although I doubt it in 2 hours). Do it for more than 2 hours to gather more accurate data.