Guild Wars 2

To clarify – is this release coming tomorrow (May 3rd) or in a later week?

Dusty Moon.4382:

Veles.1405:

It comes down to what are the key roles that each class can play (dps, cc, condi, boon sharing, healing, etc) and then compare the relative power and complexity of each of those. The new elite specializations and HoT stat combinations are basically the definition of power creep. For most classes the elite spec is simply more powerful than any other 3rd trait line you could pick.

One of the best ways to evaluate based on roles was mentioned above, in looking at the risk/reward balance for each action. That concept is what drives the design of utility and elite skills since they are meant to be a significant power increase at a high cooldown or resource cost.

Most importantly do not drop the nerf hammer like in the past. People sometimes find unique and valuable builds that work great in WvW but are irrelevant to other game modes. I will use the old glamour condi mesmer as an example. It was overpowered in that it could blind and confuse large groups of enemies, but Anet responded not just by tuning the power down a bit but instead by breaking the trait synergies that allowed the build to exist. Since the game launched I have seen many builds smashed like this by the nerf hammer, and that is exactly what we do not want. We want power levels tuned so that we have many different build options available.

Roles? WOW, that comes from the Trinity games. The idea is to be as versatile as possible in this game. Everyone has heals, some have boons (Guards, Ele’s , etc.) but all can add to it. Everyone has to have DPS, unless you are a commander.

The trick in WvW is to have builds that compliment your group, unless you roam solo (then survivability is tatamount).

At its core everyone does play DPS but I’m referring more to the utility skills since those can be all personal DPS or group support or healing. The roles I talked about are general types of builds that need to be mixed to have the best result. Organized guild groups mix people playing different roles as their primary focus (assuming that some DPS is done by everyone) so create a stronger team. Pre-stab nerf there were defined frontline, midline, and backline roles (maybe that’s better wording than what I said before). Many classes could fill multiple roles, but not all of them.

The general idea is to compare similar build styles across classes and make sure that none spike too far above the power curve. Similarly, builds can be compared in a single class to balance out the power and make multiple viable builds.

Dusty and Kuru – By “right path” I mean that we have commitments to at least some actions that will help us get on track. We are nowhere close and I am not hyped or optimistic that we will get a perfect end result. My point is that for once we need to stop just complaining and yelling “OMG Anet killed WvW” every time they say anything. That behavior forces them to not talk to us and keep hiding what they are doing since someone always reacts negatively.

I don’t think one big update will fix everything, just like I don’t think reverting the changes will fix everything. Look back 6 months or more on the forums and you’ll see threads complaining about a different set of problems. I’m not expecting anything amazing, but this is our last chance as a community to save the game mode so I I’d rather we do it step by step, evaluate what works and doesn’t, and communicate both ways. The dev responses on the AMA suggested that is the general philosophy moving forward with WvW, and that is the first step (of many) in the right direction.

Before the Desert BL was launched we used to complain that we were tired of the same map. We didn’t get a perfect result, so we complain about it. Why are we so obsessed with the idea of reverting the change instead of fixing the map we requested? Also, let’s not forget that there were plenty of problems with the Alpine BL. Why not work on fixing both maps so we can be happy when we finally get a rotation?

IMO it’s better to fix the background system so they can actually rotate maps because that (and potentially more map additions in the future) would be way better in the long term.

It comes down to what are the key roles that each class can play (dps, cc, condi, boon sharing, healing, etc) and then compare the relative power and complexity of each of those. The new elite specializations and HoT stat combinations are basically the definition of power creep. For most classes the elite spec is simply more powerful than any other 3rd trait line you could pick.

One of the best ways to evaluate based on roles was mentioned above, in looking at the risk/reward balance for each action. That concept is what drives the design of utility and elite skills since they are meant to be a significant power increase at a high cooldown or resource cost.

Most importantly do not drop the nerf hammer like in the past. People sometimes find unique and valuable builds that work great in WvW but are irrelevant to other game modes. I will use the old glamour condi mesmer as an example. It was overpowered in that it could blind and confuse large groups of enemies, but Anet responded not just by tuning the power down a bit but instead by breaking the trait synergies that allowed the build to exist. Since the game launched I have seen many builds smashed like this by the nerf hammer, and that is exactly what we do not want. We want power levels tuned so that we have many different build options available.

Lord of Rings.5371:

Another idea is to increase rewards for WvW to boost WvW population.

Increasing rewards is still a complex problem. The overall level of rewards needs to be increased to help sustain players who only play WvW (and still need to dump thousands of gold into guild halls and tactivators to remain competitive), but if you increase it too much it becomes an EotM farm. However, that is simply a quality of life update and not a way to solve the population balance problems for 2 reasons: 1) everyone gets the same boost, the imbalance remains 2) does nothing to address the time coverage issues.

Increased drop rates, WvW only skins, access to more stat combos or ascended armor/weapons, or a legendary backpiece (every other game mode has one) help retain the players that have been leaving constantly. Something else is needed to make it matter to the non-core WvW community or people will just go to EotM to karma train and farm the rewards. To actually draw new players into WvW, it needs to have a real impact on the rest of the game in some way. I’d bet that most new players don’t even know the server-wide buff to xp, crafting, etc based on WvW score even exists. Those who know that it exists don’t care because it does not change the way they play the game.

I agree completely about the waypoints and that run times have made it more difficult to defend. I do think that the overall power creep of siege has also had a negative impact on defense (or offense – looking at you shield generators). With guild buffs you have almost every player carrying 20 (or 25) supply and a group of 5 people can tear through a keep.

As for the compromise you suggest, we have been hearing from the devs that due to technical restrictions they cannot switch back to the old BL right now. We may not be happy with that, but it is what it is. The AMA suggested that they plan to update the Desert BL map (along the lines of your suggestions) while they try to work out the technical issues preventing switching BLs. After that, some time will be needed to update the Alpine BL to use the new mechanics released in the last few months. I agree that your proposed compromise sounds good, but it turns out to be impossible and Anet is following that general plan (just reordered a bit).

That runs into some interesting issues and opportunities. A guild leaderboard showing the most kills (or points based on points per kill) would be awesome. Just add up the total kills by guild based on what guild someone is repping at the time they get the kill. I know many guilds that would fight over those bragging rights. However, different tiers (and even servers) have different styles and this would create an imbalance favoring some servers over others. The same issue happens for personal leaderboards since in players in lower tier servers could complete the same tasks way easier.

I think what you are getting at is that there is nothing to work towards in WvW overall. Glicko scoring has trapped many servers in terrible matchups, especially when major population shifts happen, and many people are tired of the same matchups day after day. WvW players have to spend time farming other game modes to get gear, food, etc that they need for WvW. The only reward for currency earned in WvW (like the proofs of heroics) is siege which is mostly placed by commanders. Guilds spend large amounts of gold scribing tactivators but do not receive any reward in return. The only way to make WvW even approach profitable is to karma train similar to EoTM, which is exactly the opposite of what most veteran WvW players want.

I think this means that there need to be different rewards that servers, guilds, and individuals can earn through playing WvW. Some of the ideas from the old WvW tournaments were good since they gave servers a reason to fight for first place in their matchup, which in turn motivated guilds and players. However, the matchup Glicko system would need to be changed to ensure that servers would not get trapped in unwinnable permanent matchups and never receive rewards. And that doesn’t even get into the population imbalance issues.

The more I think about it, server based rewards seem impossible to balance. Guild and/or personal rewards seem like the best way to incentivize WvW play. For players, it could be kills, captures, etc similar to the achievements we had in the original WvW tournaments. For Guilds, let’s say that you get bonus favor or resonance (my guild always has to choose between scribing decorations or tactivators) for every x amount of time that you hold a claimed tower or keep. That gives something beneficial, but not overpowered, to guilds which spend the time and gold to hold an objective.

I am certain this post will draw out the trolls in the community (the same ones who take to the forums and Reddit to attack devs), but someone needs to speak up for the part of the WvW community who support what has been announced today through the AMA and other sources. I am all for trolling (Maguuman WvW player since beta) but many of the comments I have seen today were simply disrespectful and unnecessary. Today we had a chance to provide valuable feedback but it got drowned out in a flood of people venting.

First, a big thank you to the Mike O’Brien and the WvW devs (like Tyler and Shuai) for telling us what you can for now (even if it was vague). We have been frustrated, and it is good to have that acknowledged and get a better idea of when more information/betas/etc is coming. We didn’t get all of the information we wanted today but we know there is a plan and they are listening to us.

How many times have there been threads on these forums begging for devs to ask WvW guilds for feedback? Today Mike committed to doing that. How many threads have complained about terrain blocking skills? Tyler announced they are working on that. We also were told that the Studio Tech Director is working on WvW. These are all steps in a good direction.

Put simply: today we got good news. We aren’t there yet but progress is being made. Let’s use the next month or two to provide meaningful feedback. Continued ranting helps nothing – let’s work on compiling the most important suggestions and writing them down. There are many disagreements about what the path forward is, but we have a chance to make a difference for this game mode that we love. If you do not take this chance to make constructive suggestions, then you give up the right to QQ.

That said, we need more information from Anet before we can provide useful feedback. If we do not know the plans then all of our suggestions are based on what exists right now. When planning a major overhaul, everything could change and our ideas could be invalid. I look forward to the upcoming blog post and hope that it comes sooner rather than later so our ideas can be included in the design process rather than just during beta tests.

I have waited years for a WvW overhaul. Keep calm and carry on for the next month (or so) until we get more information so we can discuss the positives/negatives and work with the devs to improve WvW in a way that benefits all of us.

A while ago I made a joke guild, of which I am the only member of and never did anything to upgrade, etc. I went to delete it to free up the slot and discovered that I am unable to leave or stand down as the leader (the “Leave Guild” button is greyed out).

Is there some way to delete the guild that I’m not seeing or is that just impossible since the release?

ParaldaWind.4523:

Ninein.4782:

Maguuma has no tolerance for commanders trying to learn the rope.

This is actually true. I have 6 or 7 icons in my guild, and only 2 ever use them. Maguuma isn’t very friendly to new commanders.

Mostly, but not entirely true. My perspective is that of a new commander (pulled several shifts in the BLs when I had time over the last month or so since I got the icon) and there are definitely some barriers to entry. A lot of people just want to follow the old commanders they are used to, and are skeptical of new commanders until they prove themselves. The key for me getting experience was to listen/follow the commanders I respected, figured out how they led, then once I got my icon was ready to step up when a commander needed to go get food/sleep/etc. Right now is actually a great time for it since a lot of commanders have been taking breaks to make sure they don’t burn out.

I’d also like to say that the experienced commanders have been really helpful in trying to get more newbies trained up, and when I’ve commanded I’ve constantly received pms with advice. I think we are in a perfect place to train new commanders if they aren’t afraid of making mistakes every once in a while (and the regular non-commander players can tolerate the learning process). It is rough to start out, but once you get rolling it’s pretty awesome. While Mag BL is really intimidating to start out in, it’s so much more responsive thanks to the active mumble community, which helps a lot for newbies.

B-b-b-bump! <3 Invalid

Anyways, we got small tidbits today… Something, but definitely hoping for more

https://twitter.com/DragonSeasonCom/status/304249153335218176
“Colin: Orange swords in WvW won’t show if there are less than ~25 people after February’s update (unsure exact number)”

https://twitter.com/DragonSeasonCom/status/304240335310159872
“Colin: WvW updates will not introduce new skills. Will bring passive abilities aimed towards group play eg. Extra supply”

The silence has been broken-ish but just makes me want more… Please come to tell us on the forums, Anet instead of retweets!

Only a WvW player is confused by why no loot bags drop at their feet when guildies drag them to PvE.