Guild Wars 2

Your problem is very simple. You are trying to buy the best stuff that is buyable in the game. And you are complaining that it’s expensive and you have trouble affording it. There are only two real solutions to your problem.

1. Make the best stuff so common that everyone gets more of it than they know what to do with.

2. Ensure that everyone has roughly the same amount of money.

Both of these solutions are obviously game-breaking. If the best gear was so easy to obtain that it didn’t represent a real goal to strive for, then a lot of the incentive to play would be destroyed. All MMOs are, to some degree, about progression. Some gear may not be obtainable on the market at all. That’s a different issue. But the best gear that is buyable for money? It will cost a lot of money. That’s because lots of people will want to buy it. Supply and demand.

The other solution is just the same “problem” of power-gaming, only applied more narrowly to the market. You are annoyed that some people have what you don’t have – yet. You are annoyed that they spend more time/effort making money than you and so they have more. Could be more levels too. Or gear that isn’t tradable. But in this case it’s money.

As long as there is any way to make money in this game, there will be people putting in more time and effort than you do. That’s an unavoidable truth. If there’s going to be an economy at all, some folks will rock it. Others won’t. The solution is to have no economy at all. Which frankly, some games do. But GW2 isn’t one of them.

The only real solution to your problem is a third option, which you’ve already heard. Adjust your expectations. GW2 IS extremely good about one thing. The “best” gear is only marginally better than gear that’s easily obtainable. You aren’t a second-class citizen only because you lack the best. Most times you won’t even feel the difference. So just stop worrying about it. Use what you can afford and get the rest when you can.

GW2 has the best solution built right into it. It isn’t a game that depends on hardcore progression. But if you insist on buying the best, and you think it should be easy, you’re simply playing the wrong genre. Not just the wrong game – but the wrong genre entirely. Not everyone can “win” just by logging in. If it took no effort, it wouldn’t be a game at all.

Respectfully, the OP doesn’t want to learn how to use the forge in any depth, doesn’t want to play the market, and has limited time to play. But he’s still upset that he can’t afford the gear he wants. And I assume he has some high-end wants.

Gear is, for many players, the end goal of a MMO. It’s the most tangible form of progress. Any time a casual player tells me the game should be fun for casuals I agree. I’ve been one myself at different times. But when a casual player tells me they are upset because some goal or achievement seems out of reach to them, I have to wonder what the heck they actually want. If you could “finish” the game easily and on casual hours, what’s left for anyone else to do? Are you really so upset that there’s stuff for other people to do beyond what you have time for?

GW2 is incredibly friendly to casual players. Real progression and interesting gameplay is available in short bites. Gear isn’t a gateway to power. For relatively little money, a character at level 80 can be as powerful as the best geared character with fancy exotic skins and a legendary weapon. Ascended gear may have messed with that a bit, but let’s leave that alone for now. And despite the fact that you can be as powerful as any other end game character on limited time, now you’re cheesed you can’t get the -skin- you want? Man, you must really resent people who play more and better than you having anything at all.

You can play a lot or you can play well. Both can contribute to success. In economic terms, you don’t seem interested in either. And that’s fine. No one is saying you need to get rich except you. I know many happy and poor players. But complaining that things are out of reach is just absurd. That’s a function of being a casual player in a game where others aren’t.

Good luck.

As compared with the cost/revenue we’d expect for a subscription game? No, it isn’t excessive at all – not in real money terms and certainly not in gold.

The unlocks are the one price in gems that isn’t high at all. If anything it’s low. I imagine you’re complaining about this in particular because it’s the only thing you care about. I agree – this is the one thing that most players past a certain point will feel they objectively “need.” And that’s fine. ArenaNet needs to make money, don’t they?

So yes, in terms of real money, the pricing is fine. If you want to unlock a couple of slots every month that’s the cost of a subscription game. Soon enough you’ll have your whole shared bank done (which stays done across all characters) and every inventory slot on the characters you play regularly. And then what?

In terms of gold to gems, that’s what every player who wants everything but doesn’t want to spend real money complains about. And you know what? If you don’t feel like spending real money but you want everything AND you think it should come easily then you just don’t get the model. If it came easily for in game currency then no one would spend real money. Many players, myself included, find it ridiculously easy to make money in game. I know, that sounds like boasting. It isn’t. I know I’m good at it. But if the exchange rate were such that even players who -weren’t- good at it found things easy we’d have TWO problems. First, no one would ever buy gems because they didn’t need to. And second, the gems to gold ratio would suck as a consequence, and even the players who do buy gems would never want to change them to gold because you think gems should be cheap.

Allow A-Net their business model, please. Or offer to pay a monthly subscription and you can have everything unlocked for as long as you continue paying. I’m fine with either option. But enough is enough with this “I want to play the game for free” crap. We all like this game. It’s just a shame only some of us seem to appreciate the financial reality of it. If there’s no revenue, there’s no development. And soon enough, there’s no game at all.

@Tallis – You don’t even know how the exchange works, but at least you asked. See your other thread for an explanation.

The exchange rate of gems to gold is player driven. But yes, A-Net sells gems which have a value in gold. It’s a variable value, determined by player exchange, but a gold value nonetheless.

You seem to think there’s something nefarious in this. There isn’t. It’s a game that needs revenue. Any other game like this I’d expect to pay a subscription. I’m perfectly fine with A-Net making their money this way. Most everyone else seems fine with it too.

It’s actually very simple. It isn’t buying gems with real money that affects the exchange. If you buy gems with real money and spend gems on things, it doesn’t affect the exchange at all.

When players turn gems into gold, the exchange moves slightly in favor of gold. Meaning, gold is worth slightly more gems.

When players turn gold into gems, the exchange moves slightly the other way.

It doesn’t matter how the gems or the gold were acquired. You could have bought gems long ago with gold and be trading them back to gold (if you did it long enough ago, it could be profitable) and the exchange would still move.

It’s simply designed to emulate the movement of the market. When people are buying one way the exchange moves so that sale is slightly less attractive and the opposite is slightly more attractive. Over time, we reach something like equilibrium.

Note, there is still a transfer tax. As there should be. That’s ArenaNet’s “cut” over and above the cost of gems for real money. But factoring out that tax, the two move together.

No one likes hearing this, but the reason gems are SO expensive (as so many complain) is because despite how much gold it seems to cost to get those gems, no one who has gems already is interested in selling them for gold – at roughly this exchange. And until they are, the price will keep moving in the same direction.

Agreed. People who think gems are too expensive in terms of the gold to gems exchange are only thinking of their desire to buy everything in the game without spending real money. Well you know what? If no one spent real money there would be no revenue stream for ArenaNet, and the game we all enjoy would not have the funds to maintain development.

No one likes to hear this, but if you intend to only exchange gold for gems and never spend real money you need to either keep your expectations modest or else be a very good player, in economic terms. The OP is suggesting that if something isn’t done people will be “forced” to spend real money like it’s some kind of crime. It isn’t. That’s the way the game is designed.

I agree. The exchange is, if anything, too skewed the other way. And it will continue to fall. It isn’t ArenaNet that’s doing it. It’s the fact that more people are still buying gems with gold than there are those buying gems with real money and exchanging for gold. It’s that simple. You may think the ratio sucks, but the weight of public opinion is against you.

It is what it is. There are few enough things that demand gems in this game. If you aren’t happy with the exchange rate, simply don’t buy gems. What unfilled needs are you really angsting for, anyway?

Fiontar.4695:

As time goes on, you will either need to have disposable income n game or IRL if you want to buy things from the gem Store. People who are lacking in both will be at a disadvantage.

Now this is an entirely true and valid point. And truthfully, as a competitive player who does make gold hand over fist, I don’t want my gameplay to become unbalanced. I enjoy a competitive game with other players on equal footing. So finding a good balance here, where the cash shop is meaningful but if a player lacks access to if that isn’t game-breaking … that’s part of the art of good game design.

I’m very pleased to say I haven’t found the advantages that can be bought with cash and/or excessive gold to be game-changing. I wouldn’t want them to be. Fun, convenient, and a way of showing off? Sure. But when it comes to hitting a dungeon or going WvW, I want to be on equal footing with “poor” players also. And I am.

So I share your concern. But thus far, I think A-Net is managing it well. Even the gross cash sink of legendary weapons in game … they’re only pixels. Stats-wise they are identical to much cheaper weapons. So you can’t buy power with gold or real cash. Not to any meaningful degree, anyway. As it should be.

Hit “O” and go to the option menu side that says “my transactions.” At the top, click “Items I’m selling” and instead select “Items I’m buying.” Find the appropriate offer, and click “remove.”

Cheers.

Yeah, well, Snoring – you are allegedly a real player. How do I know you aren’t actually a sentient computer that’s been built by birthers and subsequently confused ArenaNet with the democratic party, hence your ill-informed distrust of their credibility?

When you can say at the same time “these are the facts as presented” and “they make perfect sense based on observed reality” but still refuse to accept the truth of something only because it hasn’t been -proved- to you … what proof would you accept, anyway? Odds are, if they showed you exactly what they are doing in raw code you still wouldn’t understand it. And the very next fool who refuses to accept any evidence save what they have personally witnessed would be no more persuaded by you than you are persuaded by anyone else. You seriously want A-net to explain this to every player individually?

Serious discussion only, please. Until there’s some reason to not believe them, it’s based on player driven decisions. When players trade gold for gems, the cost goes up. When they trade gems for gold, the cost goes down. With a healthy spread for A-net’s bottom line, as there should be.

Nope – you just need to get better at making coin in the game.

AN’s entire business model is based off selling gems in the cash shop. It SHOULD NOT be easy for the average player to make so much gold that they never want or need to buy gems with real money. If everyone opted out of that system, AN would have no revenue stream at all.

Now I really don’t mean to be a jerk here, but there are lots of players out there who are good enough at making gold in game that they don’t need to ever spend real money on gems. I’m one of them. And I’d spend money on gems if I needed to. I like this game and I don’t mind supporting a game I like. I’m just good enough at making money in game I have no reason to do so.

If you can’t make enough coin in game to buy the gems that you need, then fire up the credit card and spend $10. It won’t be the end of the world. I’m not saying you’re an inferior player or that I wouldn’t group with you. There are guildies I love who can’t make cash and spend real money for what they want all the time.

But let me ask you this. If you are bad at making money in game (and you are) and you still expect to be able to make enough that buying gems with gold feels painless to you and that’s where you get all you need … who is supposed to be spending real money again?

Good players can make more than enough gold for the gems that they need. By “good” I mean good at the market, or at otherwise earning gold in game. Average players probably won’t be, unless their expectations are modest. Weaker players, definitely not. The system needs to be designed that way.

If you want to be able to get all your gems via in-game gold, then get better. Or stop complaining. Because there are plenty of players who find it easy enough. You just aren’t one of them.

The entire premise of the OP’s long explanation is that “fair market value” can only be determined if sellers are allowed to express what they are willing to sell at buy buyers are not allowed to express what they are willing to buy at. The entire premise is absurd.

This may seem to make sense to someone who’s entire exposure to market economics is at the retail level – after all, Target, Wallmart, and other retailers all compete as sellers of goods but we never see their buyers expressing what they are willing to buy at. But to anyone with exposure to economics above that level, we all know that it is -extremely- common for the market to account for both what people are willing to sell at AND what people are interested in buying at.

Note, btw, that sophisticated retailers take this into account anyway. You just don’t see it.

If you think it’s unfair that someone is able to express a desire to buy at a certain price, and that the people need to be protected from this information only so that you can sell at your price, that’s … well, one opinion, I guess. Buy if you think “fair market value” in the marketplace is arrived at only amongst sellers, in the real world or otherwise, you need to do some introductory reading in the subject. That’s just at odds with reality.

MMOs inflate very heavily at the beginning, yes. This was very predictable.

To those who regret not buying gems early, well, that sucks. But a month from now you’ll be looking at a far worse exchange rate and you’ll wish you bought gems now. If you are ever going to do so, should be now and not later.

Although have misgivings about the price of consumables such as keys, the gem cost in real money terms for bank slots, inventory slots, extra characters etc. is very reasonable. If you took an ordinary monthly subscription cost and bought 400-800 gems each month only to unlock things, you’d have a lot unlocked before long. And GW2 is easily worth that. The rest of the gem shop may be skewed, but the price of unlocking things is entirely reasonable.

To ArenaNet – Thank you for correcting the problem that I identified here in all subsequent sale days. Since this initial issue, discounts have been appropriately applied both to individual items and to the bulk packages.

To those who choose to think this was complaining, and that I was full of it for bringing this up – see above.

Note – I am under no illusions ArenaNet is bringing us deeper discounts as a consequence. They are most likely only presenting those discounts more honestly. But I’m fine with that, as I always was.

Final note – If most of us are buying bulk items in bulk already, offering a discount based on the individual price is, indeed, disingenuous. That’s like advertising four winter tires at 50% off and then applying it against the price you’d normally pay for one multiplied by four, when most people buy four at a time and are budgeting based on the price for four. You can claim otherwise, if you like. But it’s still oddball math.

This was never about what ArenaNet must do or must not do. It isn’t even about right and wrong. It’s only a question of whether they choose to respect their players’ intelligence or if they prefer flea market economics. I’m very pleased they’ve taken the high road, and I respect their willingness to adjust.

Look, I get it. GW2 is free to play with a cash shop. I have no problem with that and I am glad when the game makes money. If the game isn’t making money it won’t last and continue to be developed. I like the game so I want to see it succeed.

I don’t buy gems with real money. Sorry. It isn’t that I’d be unwilling to, I’m just really good at making gold. So I don’t need to. But again, I want the game to succeed. I’ll buy expansions and what not. And I know my guildies buy gems sometimes.

Now here’s what’s pissed me off. It’s something really simple. Your Black Friday event is advertising Black Lion Keys at 50% off if you buy 25. The prices as advertised are:

1 for 125 gems
5 for 450 gems
25 for 1560 gems (50% off!!)

Now, for anyone with a shred of common sense or math skills, that doesn’t add up. The real cost of 25 keys is currently 450 × 5 for 2250. Half off would be 1125, not 1560. 1560 is only half price if you assume I’m buying 25 keys individually. And who would do that?

This is just one silly example, but it illustrates a problem in the marketing of the gem shop. You seem to think your customers are stupid. We really aren’t. We know bad math when we see it. And I don’t personally have any problem at all with pricing your gems at 125 per, or 5 for 450, or with offering 25 keys at 69.33% of the regular price instead of buying 5×5 (that’s the real discount) or however you happen to price things. Just please, don’t act like we’re stupid.

Like it or not, your economy is being driven by smart players. You can make -some- money off dumb players by hoping they don’t notice a bad deal when they see one. But you can make a lot more money off smart players by offering a good deal instead. Just FYI.

Observation offered with the best of intentions. Cause I like this game and want it to succeed.

You can buy and sell as many items as you want (at least, I’ve never hit a limit, with hundreds for sale at a time and I can’t even guess how many to pick up) but the items waiting to be collected sit in a pile. Money is part of that pile. Until you’ve cleared the top of it, you won’t get the money showing. It’s there. You just need to pick up everything and do whatever it is you’re waiting to do with it.

I would definitely support higher incremental pricing based on the current buy/sell positions. That is, something like 5%. A higher buy order that is less than 5% higher than the present highest wouldn’t be valid, and a sale price less than 5% lower than the currently posted lowest wouldn’t be valid. I think it would make the TP fairer and more accessible to people who don’t obsess over it to the same degree as some, and certainly it would put a crimp on some botting too.

I’ve read numerous topics on gem prices and just to state the position I’m coming from, I’m comfortable with them. I accept that the price of gems is determined by the rate of conversion going on and I think it’s a reasonable system. I also tend to believe prices will continue to rise (as in, more gold for fewer gems) and I’m sitting on a huge pile of gems as a consequence – hopefully all I’ll ever need. But that’s beside the point I intend to make here.

Much as we claim this system finds its own balance, there are actually a number of constants in it. That is, any time there is a gem-purchased commodity that can be otherwise valued directly in gold, it represents a constant. And as the price of gems inflates, which is otherwise not a bad thing, it can create some oddball situations.

As one example, the Instant Repair Canister. This is a boost, of sorts, but it’s acquired through gems. It’s only value is to save on repairs. Now here’s a problem. The cost of the canister now wildly exceeds its value. You can buy them in bulk for 60 gems per, but that’s roughly 40 silver at current exchange. Meanwhile, even if you’re in all orange gear at level 80 and everything that can be damaged IS damaged, the cost of repair in silver is only about 20. Now, tell me. Who is ever going to buy these canisters again?

Mystic Forge Stones are another example. They can be used to make Mystic Salvage Kits. I decline to run the number but at present this represents better value than using other salvage kits – notably the Master’s Salvage Kit that has the same chance of recovery. Mystic Forge Stones cost (in bulk) 45 gems per. Right now that’s about 30 silver. If that ever passes 50 silver, by my calculation, it will be cheaper to buy Master’s Salvage Kits in bulk rather than make Mystic Kits.

Now, my suggestion to the devs responsible for the economy is this. Carefully review all gem store products for direct gold-gem comparisons and ensure as gems inflate in value that there is, at least, an incentive to still use and purchase gems. Otherwise, key pieces of your equation (reasons why people would buy gems at all) will stop working.

Character slots, bank space, expansions (if gem purchasable) have no direct gold comparison -other than- the gold to gems exchange rates. Those will take care of themselves. You don’t have to modify them. Any gem products that have the main direct effect of saving money, however, or which serve uses which could otherwise be had with money … those need to be regularly adjusted.

Good job otherwise. I figured I’d lend a hand.