Showing Posts For brentend.7058:
Maybe I’m getting old, but this felt like listening to a bunch of giggling high school kids. I had to put the thing on mute before long.
I think it’s supposed to be satire. It’s pretty funny in that light, at least one of the more entertaining times I’ve watched gw2 pvp.
Also I think I can assume they’re all pretty jaded about the gw2 pvp scene, true story.
I used ‘R’, which is a statistical programming language.
You are correct, the cooldown keeps the actual amount from reaching the theoretical maximum one would expect given only the proc rate, attack speed, and crit rate. Also, because the crit rate and proc rate are independent, one can miss on the proc despite having 100% crit.
I’ll post the code sometime today when I get a chance to clean it up and add some comments.
Ohh, I didn’t realize “R” an actual reference on my first read through. Thanks for the reply I’ll have to try messing around with it later.
What program or schema did you use to model this? If you don’t mind me asking.
A quick look at the numbers seems that the init return is under-performing the theoretical in both current and proposed methods for 1s:
Looking at the the first graph at 1s and 25% crit shouldn’t the theoretical be .25*.3*1=0.075 init/s while the graph shows ~0.07. At 50% with similar calculation it should be 0.15 init/s while the graph shows ~0.13.
For the second graph at 1s and 25% crit theoretical calc is 0.125 while it shows ~0.1125. For 50% theoretical is 0.25 while graph shows ~0.2.
I would look at the other cd’s but that seems a little more difficult than a simple calculation. Or maybe the slight reduction is from the added time after cd has finished until the next crit that procs opportunist? In that case shouldn’t the simulated values climb closer to theoretical as crit chance increases, (since increased cc means the next hit that triggers opportunitst is more likely to come sooner)?
Either way really cool results and methodology. I’d be interested in hearing more details about how you did this. I’ve been wanting to try some monte carlo simulations for this kind of setting but haven’t found a good approach to do that. My computer has also been getting lazy recently and needs a workout.
edit:attempts to fix spelling and grammar
Option to Surrender
Reasoning: Yes the games are short enough, but if there is a player with a bad attitude that last 10min are unbearable. Often times, I’ll just afk in spawn and alt tab to something else.
Bonus: If afk on vote, please count it as a vote to surrender.
Why and Big Picture:
I’ve already resigned to accepting the terrible balance that PvP will continue to have. Good teamwork is the only effective counter measure that I’ve seen against gross imbalances (and the only way I’ve had fun). The current tools are inadequate to conduct coordination consistently against the current gross imbalances (ie. certain imbalances are such in excess that the current tools do not allow enough ease of coordination to combat it consistently). A highly optimized interface for communication, tactics, and strategy will provide better returns on playability and player satisfaction than the current groundhog playing darts blindfolded balance strategy the PvP team has been utilizing. It will allow players themselves a new better tool against their opponents and compelments the current game mode. It will reduce the requirements for coordinated gameplay from 4-5 competent players to 1 vocal competent player and 4 cooperative players.
These are only a few ideas I’ve though of on the spot, I’m certain anyone sitting down for longer can refine/make better ideas. My point is the PvP team seems incompetent at directly addressing balance issues on a timely basis (but apparently everything is according to keikaku[in which case they have poor communication but not lack of recently]). But they are good at developing spectating/custom arenas/revamping tooltips; you know the superficial stuff that’s less direct at addressing balance. A new design shift to focus on making new superficial changes that can directly address balance would be the best use of their talents. Either that or let me use a rifle and greatsword on my thief (they don’t even need decent skills).
Ranting:
I main a thief if you can gather from above. In my opinion from a thief’s perspective, balance has been handled horribly. Without going into much detail/class wars, at the very least I think most will agree there is much work to be done before PvP becomes fun let alone popular. Or to put it frankly, it has been a year and the amount of changes we’ve recieved has been what I expected them to accomplish 10 months ago. I’ve read plenty of explanations/excuses and that’s all they are, the fact is Anet didn’t deliver.
But I’ll be kitten ed if I let that stop me from having fun if I want to. So through my own experimentation, I discovered that with good gameplay the thief is severely rewarded for going full glass as any attempt at a “balanced” build handicaps damage at too great a cost. But against good players, there are many situations where even flawless play will not yield a win. One counter is to bait your opponent into faults which is possible but unreliable against these good players. The only other option I’ve found that works is getting your team to coordinate (ie. take the aggro off you). In most engagements, I’m targeted first because my danger/killability ratio is the highest so coordination is paramount. Often times though, there will be bad attitudes/newbies which present barriers to coordinating. Typing works sometimes, but I think a more organized/standardized method of communication will stop bad attitudes and get teams on the same page the quickest.
TL;DR: I’m suggesting a design shift of improving UI and UI tools to improve teamwork as a means of addressing imbalances.
Short List:
A bindable hotkey that pings on my location
Additional more descriptive hotkeyable pings
A Radial Menu for Tactical communication
List of clickable standard tactics/rules of engagement
Option to Bail Out In Pregame
Create a Post Game Lobby
Option to Surrender
Prominent Sound on Ping/different sounds for different pings
A bindable hotkey that pings on my location
Reasoning: I main a thief and in the middle of combat I don’t always have flexibility to take the ~1-1.5 sec to drag my cursor and ping the map. Often times if I’m not prepared to daze or withdraw on a reactionary basis, I will die. Secondly, occasionally I find myself having to defend a point (due to HeroQ) and as a thief I can only delay most times if I’m unable to kill quickly or if there’s more than 1 attacking. In such instances, the ability to quick ping can get help or serve as a beacon for HeroQ heroes, allowign them to get to me a few seconds sooner and possibly save the point.
Bonus: Give it a unique ping, so that others can see it as a cry for help not just an attention getter. Additionally, quick successive hits on the hotkey produce a number over the ping designating number of hostiles. Something like a yellow circle and embossed or outlined number overlaying it could work.
Additional more descriptive hotkeyable pings
Reasoning: It should be easier to quickly display if I want someone to attack or defend. It should also be easier to state spots on hostiles.
Bonus: An attack/defend ping on a cap point, with a red sword or orange shield or something for quick color/shape recognition. An additional hostile call out ping, multiple successive key presses could display a corresponding number on the ping.
A Radial Menu for Tactical communication
Reasoning: Many times as a thief if I see a fire or water field I’ll instantly switch to SB to clusterbomb. With 1+ teammates the buffs add incredibly to our damage/survivability.
Bonus: This might be a little much but maybe a standard popup menu, with dragable [Field][Finisher] to make communication easier during pregame. Alternatively a chart of faded [Fields] and [Finishers] that turn on or get brighter if it is present in the current weapons/utilities within team (bonus,bonus: icon of class next to it or corresponding number of team member). This would allow for better ease of disscussing more advanced tactics in pregame. Additionally add boons/conds into that chart.
List of clickable standard tactics/rules of engagement
Reasoning: Normally at beginning of match sometimes I like to reiterate simple tactics, especially if there is someone new. Most of it is redundant and I often get ridiculed for it, but assuming they listen and not do the complete opposite, it helps.
[ie. 1) Fight on point 2) Don’t go into an outnumbered losing fight 3) Defend/delay far point if you’re backcapping (don’t just run off) 4) If you’re losing a battle on a pt and it is no longer capped run away and heal and call for backup 5)Go for Lord (variable) 6)Intercepting is a valid form of defense against ONE opponent (not multiple) 6) etc.]
Of course there are scenario exceptions to each rule, but those can be addressed pregame in chat. Point being an easy reference for agreed tactics avoids confusion and quickly addresses shortcomings in individual tactics. [ie. kittentard get on pt, ref. tactic #1 kitten/ or allow tactics to be hotkeyed and it briefly lights up on screen]
Bonus: Simply a text box overlay with votable/toggable selection and indicator at the beginning (like explorable path voting in dungeons). Additionally the window hides into a mouseoverable moveable icon, and the listed tactics are linkable in chat. Each member can propose 1 custom tactic to be added for the match. Tactics only added to mouseover window upon majority vote. More advanced strats usually are more variable and will be typed out anyways.
Option to Bail Out In Pregame
Reasoning: If there is a player I don’t want to play with or who is unwilling to coordinate/communicate, I shouldn’t be penalized for it.
Bonus: Draw bailing penalties from w.e LoL had, it’s been a while since I played that but it seemed to work well.
Create a Post Game Lobby
Reasoning: Sometimes I’m still talking to other players about strategies or advising newbies but then we get kicked out. Simply allowing us to stay in the server until we decide to disconnect could address this.
Bonus: Create a special training grounds lobby with instant on stomp ressurect, to allow for quick demonstartions/teaching.
cont’d
I’d just like to point out that 2x Sigil of Force is overkill as they don’t stack so you’re essentially losing a Sigil.
I would suggest Sigil of Force + Sigil of Accuracy or Battle or Might or even Frailty if you’re super poor.
They do stack, at least last time I checked. Actually just checked again in the mists they at least work for pvp. Is it different in PvE, and is there some documentation on this somewhere?
@Kabuki
I found that the blind from signet of shadows gave me enough breathing room to make the runs consistent.
Maybe check your traits and food, I’ve died many times because I forgot my food buff. And check to see that you’ve queued up the PWs, or adjust the timing of the first PW (so that they queue up right before he attacks). I suspect attempts he attacks on an internal timer, regardless of dazes/stuns but I haven’t tested this out much.
Or you can try hitting mug for the heal, then using 2 for the port.
All else fails try d/p. I’ve actually switched to that since it shaves like a couple seconds off. It’s just not as brain dead to max it’s efficiency, ie. not hitting 5 if he is still blinded to max ini (unless he tries to volley) /timing HS for right at 25%. I found it a little more squishy until you learn when to place BPs. But it is possible to do crowd fav again with d/p I just haven’t been able to consistently do it, I still need to try squeamish and see if it’s more efficient trade off of extra time for one bag. Although, once you have S/P down you can pretty much go braindead and cycle through the rotation, barring anomalous behavior.
Updated Build and Strategy:
So for this new strategy all I did was remove Crowd Favorite from gambits bringing it down to 4 gambits and switched out SoA and Tripwire for IS and SoS. And once again his behavior is a little more random and quick paced but still manageable.
IS (sig) -> 3x PW -> SoS (while queuing another PW) ->(he ports sometime around here) -> steal (while still queueing PW) -> AS (for ini) -> PW until dead
1) So the big change is that they made him prefer kill shot more often which is deadly but just forces us to PW more to avoid it, so now it’s all about ini control.
2) Steal is used for the port now.
3) IS gives you extra dps at the beginning, and a quick port which you must combo to 3 immediately after you enter to interrupt his first shot.
4) SoS is for ini control to keep up the PW spam and give you compounding dps boost as he gets around 50% there.
5) AS is final burst to make sure you kill him before the second port. If not try to use 2 or if IS is up pop that again.
By the numbers:
Since we’re only doing 4 gambits now we get 5 bags instead of 6. So that is an addictional 83.33% factor of the previous values but that’s still not shabby gold. And it still takes about 40s to down him so not much change there.
Final Notes:
Go forth thieves and steal more gold, we’ll probably continually get nerfed but don’t let that be an excuse to be poor.
Edit: You probably should switch out SoS for SoA, after a few more runs I realized you don’t really need that for the blind buffer.
(edited by brentend.7058)
Thanks mate. Really helped me out on this one.
What i did though is i called the thieves before entering the arena for extra DPS and also picked up the grove buff (HP Regen) from the emissary below. I didn’t need the food with that and kept my HP above 70%.
Ohh, I threw thieves up there just cause, you really don’t need it. And since its on a 3min timer it’s useful only once every four runs. Those buffs are nice but at least for me the disappear after the first run :/ .
At any rate glad to see it’s working for you.
Edit: and now there’s a new patch, so let me take that back for a moment.
(edited by brentend.7058)
It CAN be, but he teleports a lot more randomly now. You’d have a much harder time. Shadow Shot stops that being a problem.
I haven’t had trouble with it. I made a post about it a couple days ago, if you do enough dps you can down him before the 2nd teleport, even if you don’t you can use 2 to get to him which I’ve done a couple times when I screwed up badly but not enough to instantly die.
If you do frailty it comes down to timing the mugs just right to heal you and the PW to interrupt/evade most of the dps. If not 4 gambits without frailty is very forgiving.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Deadeye-5-Gambits-S-P-For-Your-Enjoyment
Edit: of course as I say this there’s a new patch.
Edit2: nvm changes weren’t that bad, updated my build but can only do 4 Gambits efficiently now.
(edited by brentend.7058)
By the numbers:
I usually do each run in 40s (including setup time) and receive 6 bags each time. Each bag nets 8-11s and some odd copper, and occasionally other goodies like lodestones.
But let’s be conservative and say it takes kitten per run and 9.5silver per bag. It’s 20s per 5 tickets so that’s 4s per ticket and 1 ticket per gambit +1 per run.
Per run: (9.5s * 6 bags) – (1 ticket/bag) * (24s/ticket) = (57 – 24) = 33s per run
Per minute: (33s/run) * (1 run/ 45sec) * (60sec/ 1 min) = 44s per min
Per hour: (44s/min) * (60min/ 1 hr) = 2640s =26.40g
Granted you will have to do much running back and forth before you build up enough tickets to farm for an hour straight. And that’s assuming you can get an arena all to yourself for an hour straight. I estimate realistically you can expect 70% of your time to be used in that most efficient way possible with the extra 30% left to reloggin to get an empty overflow/ mistakes and dying. With a low range of 50% for slack farming and 90% for being on a roll.
Realistic Per hour: (26.40g * 70% efficiency) = 18.48g
50%: 13.20g 90%: 23.76g
Chances of nerf:
-Variability in damage and attacks(low): I’m not sure they’ll do much more here because, it’s cutting it really close and this is a max dps setup. If they touch this any more it’ll affect casuals with non optimal exotics faster. If this does happen, quick fixes are gear swaps with more sustain + SS. If dramatic then the d/p setup will be more efficient.
-Reduction in rewards (mod): Anet seems to favor this. Although this just further promotes disparity between the gaming leaders and laggers. Meaning the more casual player base that takes longer to progress will relatively get even less rewards/incentives for this event.
-Direct nerf to thief(high): This is probably the most likely fix even though I’ve observed other professions match this efficiency. Probably some nerf to PW stun and SoM regen. Probably accompanied with a range reduction on headshot.
Closing Thoughts (since I’ve written this much):
A little ridiculous, but I’ve seen a mesmer and a warrior match my efficiency. I actually rotated with a warrior for a while and by the time i was set up it he was just finishing his run. I ran 6 times in the video and died on the 6th run. I hadn’t run into other professions but I’m sure they all have some variants to make this possible.
But w.e, I’ve grown really tired of playing my thief and the game in general (since this is the only class I really have an interest in). Playing off and on tPvP for the past few months, then even stopping that I thought I’d stop with a bang or something. So I had 102g yesterday but I really wanted the Commander’s book but I didn’t want to get broke in case I come back and want to play the markets again. So I figured this out yesterday and now have 54g after buying it. I love min/maxing but hate farming so now that I figured this puzzle out, I hope this will make playing a thief more fun for some others again.
Edit: as of 8/13 the patch seemed to changed Quagan’s behavior so no more Crowd Favorite but it’s still doable. He also seems to teleport more, and prefers killshot more than volley/aimed shot so it’s easier to interrupt.
I pretty much worked out a new build which is just as quick if not a few seconds quicker. It’s only 4 gambits though. I’ll make a new post soon.
(edited by brentend.7058)
Updated (8/13) Build In Another Post Below.
So I usually I’m not one to post on forums, but I thought it would be fun to see this getting abused at least for a little while since there isn’t much else to do with the thief.
So basically it’s a S/P sig build, everything zerkers, and heal on crit food, and w.e wrench for fun. And all gambits except Squeamish.
You can pretty much reduce the process to a simple rotation, instead of being more reactionary like our class is built to be.
Scorp Wire ->3x PW -> (he ports) -> Steal -> PW (w/ 2x sig) ->2-3x PW until dead
Breakdown:
1) You’ll want to hit Scorp Wire as soon as you can because burning ticks from the start and his expected behaviors vary a lot if there’s a delay.
2) Make sure the 3x PW is queue’d right after each other (most of the time this will give time for a few AAs before he ports)
3) Hit steal right after he ports. (I’ve tried doing it before and after, but his behaviors and my HP pool tend to be more stable this way.) (an exception is if you are <40% hp by PW#2, you’ll want to mug for the heal to try to salvage the run)
4) Hit PW right after he ports. Always. If you do it before you’re gonna miss out on essential dps. (alternatively you can hit steal while you do this PW)
5) While the post-port PW is winding up hit both sigs (essential for dps)
6) PW until dead. (if you timed it all right, your hp should just barely let you win)
Additional Notes:
-Gambits: Don’t use frailty at first, timing requirements are very strict (sometimes you still die but very rarely when done flawlessly). Taking less damage allows you to mess up the timing on steal and mess up the post-port PW, but no more than 2 strikes.
- Mug is used for the heal more than the buffs, but the buffs give you some minor flex room for mistakes at the end.
- If you spend more time learning his attack behaviors you can probably supplant some PWs with AA chain which can give you more flexibility in the rotation and capitalize on the +10% dmg from crit line.
- You could probably switch out some of the zerker’s for a little more vit or toughness for more leeway. Since with full zerkers you end up having enough time to do one more PW before he ports if he didn’t die by the 3rd one (usually sometimes with full zerkers it can take 4x)
- I tried outlaw potion for wrench but it didn’t seem to enhance my damage from my limited testing.
-Running on 5 gambits, you will die, but if you get the timing down right and use your mug when your health gets low the survival odds go from dying in (1 of 5) to (1 of 10 or 20).
(edited by brentend.7058)