Guild Wars 2

Myrdreth.6829:

Mell.4873:

Myrdreth.6829:

…could someone please explain to me what “meta” means? I don’t understand a thing you all say but I am curious and want to understand what’s going on

Meta is the current best way to play the game. There are builds for your class that are Meta and although there room to change them a little you cant go away from core concept.
For example using guardians and running the trait that increases damage with retaliation.
You could almost say most classes have a gimmick and revolving you build around it is key.

Ah, now I understand. Thank you!

I am not sure that is what it really means. However, it is internet slang and subject to different interpretations and anyone not immersed in this subculture may not understand its use. Specific to gaming, most people use it to refer to a particular idea or concept that is the most popular or trendy at that time. In effect, “this is what every one else is doing”. It is an acronym and not the Greek origin prefix “meta”. It’s meaning here is Most Effective Tactic Available (META). The word itself usually refers to a general concept, not an individual detail, but the poster is correct and most GW2 builds revolve around finding a trick/exploit or series of overlapping traits to maximize damage, health, or some other characteristic. Obviously that usage does not have much relation to the origins or normal use of the word/prefix, but human nature is what it is and why explain with three or four clear words what you can spout out with four letters and a vague acronym.

That makes me wonder if it would be possible to create to a tool to scan my PUG group’s internet posting history for literacy, spelling, factual accuracy, and overall contribution to society as a whole. This way I don’t have to waste time conversing with people below my level. Wait, that sounds rather elitist, short-sided, unnecessary, and well… obviously stupid. It is the elitist fractal players that need to find their own groups and stick to them. Of course, we all know why they are picking up randoms in the first place. They are having a hard time finding people who want to play with them.

So the explanation of these changes is a reduction in boon duration and condition duration and further renaming so people don’t realize they have been nerfed. Fine. After years of +20% condi duration, you finally noticed it was way out of proportion.

However, if you want to make a utility consumable that increases healing, make a new consumable. I don’t see complaints of “too much precision” in your explanation and if so, then reduce the stat boost from the current items. You will be converting all the maintenance oils into this new format that has no relation to its current use. Unlike the other two utilities that have a causal connection, this one has none. That makes the item near useless for a large number of people and the value sunk into creating them is lost. The account bound items have already been mentioned throughout this thread. Perhaps you can enable to Mystic Forge to turn them back into something really useful — like empyreal fragments. For a cost, of course.

Multiple paragraphs of explanation for the changes, but none relating to the rationale for eliminating the current maintenance oil function. You appear to be trying to simplify it into Damage (Power or Condition) and Healing, but yet leave condition duration and boon duration as benefited values. While condition duration does have a direct effect on damage, boon duration does not. Precision is a component of damage, but is now excluded. I am having a hard time seeing a clear purpose or direction in this. Just make a new consumable.

The reduction makes the necessary amounts a little more appropriate, but unfortunately it doesn’t really address one of the key problems with this system.

Character A – My engineer is nearing his third birthday. 2nd character I made. Personal Story on last step. My main WvW train engineer. I can’t even imagine how many times he has leveled over. Probably accounts for at least 800 of my WvW ranks. 500 crafting leather/huntsman. 483 hours, 31 minutes played. 83 hero points. This character is loved.

Character B – A Norn guardian I started last Fall. 18th character. No personal story. Speed leveled by running zone lines, only stopping for overlapping events/hearts, and specifically targeting skill points. No crafting. Mostly leveled by doing dailies and eating the XP scrolls. She was a failed concept. I got to 80 and came to a dead stop. Total hours played – 33 hours, 37 minutes. Hero Points – 97. This character was abandoned.

Rather than encourage or reward people for fully immersing themselves in any or all of the games aspects, the new system directly rewards you for merciless leveling, eating scrolls, and running to hero points, ignoring anything and everything on the way. I don’t see how this compliments anything else you are trying to do.

It’s not a bug. Some one made a deliberate decision it wasn’t worth their time to move up or manually initiate their once a week update schedule. It’s likely some will chime in later and say you still got your slot on Oct. 23, just like opening your Christmas presents at 11:59 PM on Dec 25th is still Christmas. Another lesson in how to disappoint people, although this one was completely avoidable.

No, the in game average temps are what I was looking for. There is a lot of limit data out there and it is useful in finding your ceiling when setting the clock, but I was more interested in the game load temperatures and it’s not something you see in most reviews. Nothing I do will be taxing 4/8/12 cores at 100%. The in game temps (minor cooling variances aside) give me an approximate idea of how much heat is being generated and what fan speeds I would need to run for normal gaming. I am curious how much heat the extra 2 cores of the 5820K bring under gaming loads. Normally, you would expect it to be more without a doubt, but with the lower voltages of an X99 and a few ticks less on the clock, those extra cores may not be so greedy. Since I am far too familiar with this game and it represents a higher CPU load than most every other game out there, it makes for a good comparison tool. Obviously, if you want lower temps, lower your clock and voltage, but Muslumgurseks has a very good overclock on the exact board and memory I’ve selected in the X99 build. Sorry to hijack the thread. The 4790k data is useful too.

gigamarkus.2109:

I use the 4790K with a Thermalright Macho Rev. B Cooler and it gets between 55 and 65°C while playing GW2, depending on where you are (leveling or large scale events). So about 60°C is the average I have. When I close the game it’s cooling down fast to about 30°C.

Thanks, that is useful for comparison (4790K@4.6)

No, I have no real need for the extra 2 cores. The pros and cons of the 4790K vs 5820K are covered in pretty good detail around the web, but muslumgurseks has the board I was looking at I and was hoping for some personal feedback —- “I hate this thing. Worst decision ever. Some much easier to OC than regular Haswell.” Whatever. Also, I was curious about what temps he gets running @4.5 in GW2 because that is a more meaningful measure of normal use, compared to the usual Prime95 stuff.

sirsquishy.8531:

Honestly, Unless going for the 8core 2011v3 CPU, I would suggest staying on Socket 1150.
Even if you do plan to Crossfire, 8x v3 lanes are not going to hold you back. Though I would suggest going GTX970 or GTX980 instead of Crossfire/SLI.

The benefits from x99 wont really affect 32bit DX9 applications all that much. If you are going to do more then just that, then a 2011v3 build makes more sense. More PCIE Lanes, DDR4 (more costly), and more CPU cores.

http://ark.intel.com/compare/82932,80807

Thanks, I wasn’t expecting any performance difference between the two for gaming. I was more interested in his personal level of satisfaction with his set-up. I would have sent it as a private message, but there are a lot of people pondering the issue at this point. I am doing a ground up build and it needs to be now. Performance/$$ ratios don’t matter to me. I was more curious if he was happy with the upgrade and maybe some GW2 CPU temperature info for his clock speed.

muslumgurseks.4951:

XFlyingBeeX.2836:

I really wonder how much better performance you will over you current setup…

Upgrading your CPU for GW2 is useless… large WvW or Worl bosses your FPS will sucks with any CPU.

Arena.net should push for better performance with low lvl API….
this is not hard to do it… they have 2 options. Wait for DX12 or try it on Mantle.

The problems?
- GW2 is based on DX9…. i dont know if it can be ported to mantle. If it was DX11 then it would much better.
- Of course big investment into this project but… they dont care for our experience.

So if you want to play GW2 you need to spend 200$ on CPU + 120$ on MB and 100$ on GPU.. and yet it is not playable in WvW

So i recommend you to think about it… for GW2 …. not worth

here is some difference between FX 6300 and pentium g3258… actually there is no difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-c1idbPhk

I would second this like 2 weeks ago, it can be quite playable if you are willing to spend thousand dollars on x99 platform. But that still doesnt change the fact that its just not worth it for gw2. Take it from someone who literally change 3 platforms and spent thousands of dollars on hardware just for this game..

While I wouldn’t expect any GW2 difference between an OC 4790K and and OC 5820K, I am in the midst of making the decision between those two set-ups now. I am leaning toward the same MB you have. What are your general impressions so far? The cost difference is unimportant to me, but heat and power considerations are.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

crossoverAtt.9680:

This is why the notion that consumers act intelligently is one of the greatest fallacies of economics.

Do you think before you purchase a good? I do.

If you are of minimum age, you must have taken some sort Economics class at least once in your life and should be familiar with the phrase. It’s not a character judgment. I fully understand that some players make a conscious choice to take less money from selling their goods than sift through the TP for an extra 2-3 minutes.

However, it further illustrates that preferences and actions vary substantially and we can post all night about how you sell your goods and get a wide variety of differing approaches. The reasoning wasn’t about preference, it was about new and experienced players making a 1 click error that is irreversible. I am not comfortable with the idea this is intentional and Anet wished to devalue the currency by increasing the chances players will inadvertently sell their goods for a lower cost than intended.

This is why the notion that consumers act intelligently is one of the greatest fallacies of economics.

Your response is that Anet should deliberately create interfaces that cause players to act in error? How is this consistent with the new -players are helpless and need guidance- policy?

Regardless of the effect on the economy, the main point is the TP defaults to a state where the transaction is irreversible. If they can address that, than the point is at least debatable. I would hope they are not as insidious as you are implying.

I am curious why the decision was made to change the new Trading Post default from “lowest seller” to “highest buyer”. The behavior of people is extremely complicated as to which items they sell immediately vs listing at a set value, so any notion of “most sellers do this…” is inaccurate, at best. Since you really can’t use seller prediction to make the choice, it comes down to one thing —- tragic, irreversible error avoidance.

Trying to unload bags of items is a time consuming affair, even more so adapting to a new interface. It can certainly become frustrating and errant clicks are made. You have now made it so with a single errant click, a seller can off-load their 15 Gold whatever to some speculator who has lodged a 99 silver bid. Previously, if you unintentionally listed something, you could retrieve it back in just a few seconds from within the TP. Now it’s gone. That’s it. Considering most items on the TP (outside of crafting materials) have a top purchase bid drastically below market value, there is a genuine chance of this occurring on a regular basis.

You claim that all Anet employees play the game, and as a player, this problem should have occurred to you in seconds, or at least the first time you used the trading post. It’s also very troubling from a control standpoint. You have a vested interest in the marketplace not becoming a predatory arena where people go out of their way to take advantage of casual or new players, yet you have enabled them to do just that. Combined with standard difficulties in adapting to the new interface (and your glorious pop-ups) and a lot of people are going to come away with negative feelings. I can’t understand how this even got past the group discussion phase in a meeting.

This is an old point of discussion that has been debated many times and probably will continue to be in the future. Or at least until someone posts a video of some Anet personnel bringing down the fire elemental solely by auto-attacking, without condition cleansing, while on level.

Alerno.1425:

But for new player just coming to the game he/she/it won’t even know there are such things as salvage kits or boosting drinks if he can’t find simple versions from the first merchants he/she/it finds like the heart merchants.

Salvage kits? Food buffs?!? Slow down! I haven’t been through it, but I am sure there is a tutorial for that stuff – maybe around level 60. Since you won’t have access to all your basic skills by lvl 15, I would not be surprised if they have stripped all the starter area merchants bare.

I believe there was a snippet about making vendors carry more appropriate level items for their area. Since Anet’s R&D team believe that most of their player base is under the age of 12, selling beer is the starting areas they populate is an obvious no-no. It sounds like a lot of the merchants have been re-worked or re-tasked all across the world. Of course, after playing this game for 18 months, I knew exactly where to find those useful items. I suppose this is one way to encourage exploration.

Knowltey.7684:

I’ve noticed the opposite. I have NEVER dropped below 30FPS anywhere in the game before except in really really heavy WvW.

I walked into the volcano cauldron yesterday after the patch and was getting 15FPS in a place that before I would normally get at least 60. This is on a GTX680 and i5-2500K computer that should by no means having issues running this game.

I’m in the same boat with you. My performance has had more stutters and lags than I can remember since the patch and strangely in remote explorable areas devoid of meta-events, where you wouldn’t expect to see it. Do I really need more than a 6 core processor at 4.5 GHz and an OC’d 680? Must be all the mini’s… in my wardrobe.

dekou.6012:

crossoverAtt.9680:

dekou.6012:

Well, upon closer inspection, this is really confusing. The leveling system didn’t need any changes in the first place, so you’d think they’d take their time to come up with a well-tested alternative… but nope.

Which goes back to the root of the problem. The bulk of these changes were made for the Chinese launch, and obviously all of those players are new players. These changes were not designed for us, but trying to operate two different versions of the game would be tedious, or more likely require two different operations entirely, and Anet elected not to do that.

Upkeeping two distinctly different versions of the same software is usually not the best idea, so that’s a good point. However, if the Chinese version uses the same downscaling system as ours, this change doesn’t work there any better than it works here.

Unfortunately, without knowing how the monsters are being scaled, we can’t make any definitive declarations. We are assuming a lvl 55 monster is stronger than a lvl 53 monster, as was previously the case . This may no longer be true. Without knowing this, we can’t cut them to ribbons quite yet. Obviously, it was rather careless for them not to elaborate just a little, but perhaps they feel the “adjusted difficulty” phrase covers it.

The quick, imprecise test is to go find a monster +1 on your level. Previously, it would take a few extra hits, but you could manage. If it’s suddenly like fighting a veteran, than that would suggest there’s a problem. You would then need to try it again on a character at a different level to lessen the chance you were sitting on a monster level threshold (52-54 one difficulty/55-57 harder). If the +1 goes down like a cupcake, then it would seem they have tweaked the monster scaling. Try a +2, then +3.

dekou.6012:

Well, upon closer inspection, this is really confusing. The leveling system didn’t need any changes in the first place, so you’d think they’d take their time to come up with a well-tested alternative… but nope.

Which goes back to the root of the problem. The bulk of these changes were made for the Chinese launch, and obviously all of those players are new players. These changes were not designed for us, but trying to operate two different versions of the game would be tedious, or more likely require two different operations entirely, and Anet elected not to do that. All of the rhetoric, explanations, and justifications are damage control. If the China release never happens, neither do these changes. Remember, they sold 3.5 million copies of the game in the first 30 days in China. That 1 million more than all of their previous global sales in the first 18 months. These are business decisions made on the premise there is more money to be made from the Chinese audience than the existing one, which at 2 years, is likely to decline sharply no matter what changes they make.

Again, the missing piece of information is monster stats. I haven’t played around enough yet to see whether a monster +1 over my level kicks my tail. Remember, this has always been the case to some extent. If I buy level 53 rare armor and weapons, it will be strongest for me at level 53 and relatively weaker as I level up. The level 53 monsters died in 3 hits. The level 59 monsters take 6 (or whatever) and then at 60 with new rare armor and weaps, I am stronger again. What’s complicated, is that we now have 3 overlapping systems that work on the same principle. I haven’t seen all the level splits, but there likely are a few problem levels where you are weak on all 3 stat boosts. Anet is probably hoping the overlapping nature will create something of a balance, while at the same time ticking off every power leveler out there. Possibly their largest mistake is not realizing the size of that contingent. Even casual players who have been through the story several times are more likely to gear up, boost up, craft up, or otherwise push through at a faster pace. I don’t understand why they would deliberately frustrate that process.

Your certainly welcome to so, but forgetting to balance monsters or change the downscaling after altering the stats is like forgetting to open the door before walking through it. Your deserve a bump on the nose. It’s unfathomable this problem wouldn’t occur to an entire team of employees.

Level 20 birthday scrolls need to be level 40 scrolls now. Might be an easier compromise than admitting this entire enterprise is based on misinterpreted data and poor analysis.

It’s not a bug. This became an obvious obstacle the moment they announced their intentions regarding the update. Numerous people cited this as a potential problem in complaint posts leading up to the release. Just as the April trait system makes you weaker each level until you get to the next trait/stat boost, the new leveling system compounds that effect. Add in the natural armor and weapon level progression of new gear every 6-7 levels (rare/masterwork), and you have a very tedious mess that may not have a balance.

The easiest solution is to make monsters between those stat bumps all of equal power. So, all level 52-58 monsters have the same stats and relative difficulty. Actually, due to the numerous armor and weapon combinations the scattered levels at which they exist, you probably would have to make it a 3 level system (52-54 monsters all the same). Power players would be gearing up every 3 levels, instead of every 7.

I had assumed they would do as much with this release, but I haven’t heard anyone mention it. And of course, once you start doing this, why have a level 80 cap at all. The entire game is built on an 80 level system and now they are introducing features that are not entirely compatible with that concept. Questionable decision making to say the least.

5 Months later, I still can’t get past the idea traits are “too confusing” for new players, so lets delay the in game implementation. Rather then in game PvE 1v1 type opportunities to try out, lets hold off until 80. After all, World Boss mobs, Dungeons, and WvW are terrific, easy pace, clear cut opportunities to see how your skills and traits function. What’s next? Universal “grow with you” armor and weapons? You can club people with your started stick all the way to 80, then you can have some grown-up weapons. I joked at the time Anet had run out of server storage space and needed people to stop creating characters immediately. I would love to see the how the previous 5 month numbers stack up with the prior 5.

The fact is very few of these changes make any sense from a game play perspective. They had an opportunity to reshape the game in a more profitable way upon entering the Asian market, and they took it. At two years, a large part of the original players will be naturally moving on and they have chosen the focus on the enormous number of new Asian players. It makes sense from a revenue driven model, but they really are going to accelerate their Western decline. Normally, this is where you would save the franchise with an expansion but…

“The trait system had nothing to do with China and everything to do with people who wanted to hunt for skills, like in GW1. Well they got what they wanted and now they are complaining about it.”

Where did you get this idea? The implementation of the trait unlocks was one of the most haphazard, uninformed, “5 minutes before we go live”, poorly executed changes they have ever made in this game. First tier trait unlocks in Lvl 70 areas? (See previous 1500 posts regarding trait feedback) They have cleaned it up some, but it still reeks of hypocrisy in comparison to the “build diversity is our core goal” mantra that has been put out since the beginning. Besides, I believe the devs have already fessed up to making the original trait changes of April ‘14 based on the feedback from the Chineese audience. Sadly, I wish they had created the trait changes along the scavenger hunt line you’ve suggested. It would have turned out much better.

Edit: Someone just posted another entry to the trait complaint thread. It’s over 2000 entries now.

Crafting isn’t a good way to level your early characters. It’s expensive for anyone new to the game, and obviously adds absolutely nothing to your experience within the world at large. Some good tips were mentioned above, but for your situation the best course would be:

1) Run everywhere. Every way point, point of interest, vista, and explorable area provides experience when you discover it. Besides, it lets you see the game and find out what parts you like. I’ve never actually done it, but you can probably level to 80 without ever killing a thing and simply run the map.

2) HUNT SKILL POINTS. Besides the XP, these are now worth more than ever. See trait unlocking.

3) Look for areas where an orange “event” overlaps with a heart. Most of the time kills in this area double count for both tallies. You get the heart XP and the event XP when finished. When an event or heart looks ridiculous or irritating (defend really slow person for 20 minutes plus/dance like a cow) – SKIP IT. The bonus XP from map completion is small and finishing off those particularly tricky vistas or POI’s when you don’t know the secret is very time consuming. (*see below regarding trait unlocking)

4) Eat food & potions. Food, potions, stones, crystals, etc. all offer a 10% boost to XP from kills. At low levels, the stat boosts aren’t worth much, but it doesn’t matter. Having 1 food and 1 potion up on you at all times give you a permanent 20% boost to kills XP. No reason to splurge on expensive food and it doesn’t matter if you are using a Centaur killing potion when you are really killing ogres. You still get the boost. Potions are ridiculously cheap and I would recommend those over stones/oils/crystal until lvl 50 or 60. Many foods and potions are available for less than 5 coppers. Even some one new to the game can afford to quaff that stuff down endlessly.

5) Stack power (optional). Power rules in leveling. Throwing on a sigil of bloodlust makes things go away fast. Also, many events require you to destroy physical objects that are not subject to critical hits or conditions. The new boost to the sigil of speed may be very helpful, especially if you are a mesmer or guardian. Still, you should not let this dissuade you from playing a certain style. If you love your condi necro, by all means play that way.

Those are the big ones. Other people will suggest WvW or champ trains, but there is too much waiting around and you are dependent on other people to help you along. Rampaging through the PvE world can be done anytime, solo or in packs, and it won’t matter. The last time I aggressively tried to level a character, I did it in 7 days, playing 5 or 6 hours a day. I could have gone faster, but occasionally stopped to enjoy myself.

**The other factor here is going to be if your character was created after the April 15th patch. If it was, then you are subject to the new traits system where you must complete a whole pile of map completions to unlock traits, or be forced to pay for them. Some map completion may be in order on the appropriate maps to cut down on your costs.

Out of all these changes, how we arrived at the specifics of the trait unlock task list is the easiest for me to understand. An intern, nervous and running late for a key development meeting, trips while carrying a folder full of trait quest ideas. The contents of the folder go everywhere. The intern, now frantic and nursing a head injury, puts the folder back together without having any idea of what the items are or their context within the game. The intern then hands over the folder to the developers as the completed work of the Trait Quest Unlock Sub-Committee. I understand. This was a human error. Now fix it.

As for the rest of the changes, I can only see two possible provocations:

1) Your boss’ boss came up with this whole idea in a dream. Everyone from the first moment knew this was a bad idea, but fearful for their jobs, kept silent for months on end. I can sympathize, but you’re only forestalling the inevitable.

2) The Mega-Server change did not come without costs. Due to the complicated nature and increased loads, the servers are under massive stress. It was paramount the Mega-Server roll-out coincide with an immediate drop in user activity, both in terms of the number of players actively online and the amount of user data being stored (character slots). If this is the case, then I retract all my previous criticism and salute you for an ingenious solution to an onerous problem.

Yesterday, while slogging through Kessex Hills, I had this very nice moment of excitement. I went into an out of the way cave and killed two veteran trolls, that I’ve killed before, and otherwise would have skipped. To my surprise, I got a little treasure box, and my first trait unlock! I hadn’t bothered to look up how the traits would unlock. I assumed it would be a logical and personal story orientated way. While searching for a list of how to do this, I got excited about leveling again. I imagined all the all neat little scavenger hunts for obscure, previously ignored veterans and champs that everyone skips over because it’s easier to level by running through zones and following trains of players, wherever they might be. I even got a little nostalgic, thinking back to GW1 and hunting down bosses to capture elite skills. But then again, I am probably one of only a handful of people on earth who like scavenger hunts and play large map adventure games for a sense of exploration. But of course, all of those warm feelings turned to ash the moment I saw how those traits would be unlocked.

I don’t understand how we’ve arrived at this position. For more than a year, all of the changes to traits and game mechanics have made based on the idea of build diversity. “We want to see lots of viable builds for each profession.” [sic] Nearly every aspect of the new trait system goes against that laudable objective.

You have back-loaded all the trait abilities until level 80. So rather than experimenting with different traits during the leveling process and learning how they work, you pushed that task back until the end. The very first thing people like to do upon reaching lvl 80 is to GEAR UP. That is the carrot that’s been dangling the whole time. It’s a little harder to do if you have no idea what kind of build you want to make. But perhaps that’s no longer an issue in light of the next point.

Given the absurd trait unlock task list, most people will be buying their traits. This may come as a surprise to you, but people are going to be resistant to simply handing over a huge chunk of gold and buying the whole trait list, lock, stock, and barrel. As a result, some planning will be in order. Rather than experiment with a full list of unlocked traits, it would be far more logical to figure out exactly what build I want by Google-ing “Guardian Hammer WvW” and copying the build from one of the first 3 hits. That will do wonders for your concept of build diversity. Better still, many people may feel locked into the build when faced with the obstacle of forking over another 15 G and 60!! skills points to explore the Grandmaster traits of another line. This can do nothing but widen the gap between existing players and new one who must suffer through this process.

I am curious how you arrived at the current skill point reward system (30, 36,..etc). The concept of using regular and predictable positive rewards for promoting specific behavior (in this case leveling) is a long studied and well established process. From a professional stand point, I am extremely interested in any data you have suggesting that arbitrary or infrequent rewards are also successful in promoting specific behaviors. Please share this information.

So what was the problem that necessitated such drastic changes? If you intend to reply PvE isn’t challenging enough, think again. PvE is a challenge for new players, because of course, everything is new. The vast majority of new players don’t min/max their stats to kill everything as quickly as possible and most probably don’t know how the mechanics work at that point. For experienced players, manipulating the traits to slaughter mindless enemies is the point, because they’ve done all the content before. That is the fun. You’ve done a disservice to both groups.

Do I really need another paragraph explaining how dissuading future character development coupled with a lack of new content might be troubling for the future?

The laugher in all this is the change is being made ‘so the stat is easier to understand.’ Instead of a straight percentage, which anyone with a 4th grade education can quickly calculate, they are changing it to a fictitious value, which both the game engine and you and I have to convert back to a percentage to understand. I’m not sure how this is in concert with the rest of the sweeping “simplifying” changes that are about to be made.

Just say, “We are reducing critical damage to curb the abundance of berserker builds”. Practice in front of a mirror if necessary.

The real benefit of celestial gear is allows you to obtain a massively high crit dmg number, more so than any other gear set up. There are so many aspects of the Engi mechanics that don’t benefit from crit dmg (turrets) or weapon strength, or builds that use 30 pts in Tools, or things that are immune to critical hits, or who knows how kits actually work…

Given the ridiculous cost of exotic celestial and difficulty in crafting Ascended celestial, I would save it for another character class that can truly benefit from high critical damage stat.

It’s certainly viable and I’ve had success using it. With bombs you’re tagging everyone and I’ve gotten my monthly player kills in 6 or 7 minutes before (if that matters). Little Asura can run through the zerg dropping bombs and slick shoes, just to be nasty. Good durability and you can easily switch to a turret set-up if you get bored or have the need. The only shortcoming is the physical act of spamming bombs. I get tired of that play style and go looking for other things, but then that is what alternate characters are for.

You certainly could use Zealot’s and get your other stats from trinkets, however Cleric’s armor is so cheap right now (less than 5G for the full set) while Cleric trinkets have gone up in price (3-4 G for each piece). Some stat has to be sacrificed. Most people choose to give up critical damage and precision. You could lean out your vitality a little for more precision, but it depends on how confident you are and having a larger health pool makes constant regen/health builds more effective. Carpboy’s posts are thorough. Be sure to read them.

It took about two posts before this entire thread went away from the original issue at hand, but that’s what happens when you get cute with your analogies. The question is whether it’s appropriate to have Champ trains in any level 1-15 area and if removing them might encourage players to do champ trains (or the like) in the other area of the world.

I can’t think of too many games where high level players are encouraged to come back and dwell in the learn to play area of a game. That said, there are probably some people still hanging out in Pre-Searing Ascalon who don’t even know GW2 was released last year. There was a reason you couldn’t go back. Last week I logged on with 15 minutes to go before reset and needed 4 Krytan Events to finish my daily. I went to Queensdale, where I know I can knock out any of the sub-level 5 events in less than 60 seconds each, with any of my full exotic lvl 80’s. Pressing ahead full speed, I did just that. It was only during the third one that someone finally whispered me and asked “if the rest of us could have a chance”. There had been 3 genuine on-level players behind me the entire time, but none of them could even land a blow before I wiped the mob, and they hadn’t gotten credit for any of the events. I was mortally embarrassed and will be more careful in the future, but it raises the question again as to whether it’s appropriate for elite players to rampage through the learn to play areas of the game.

Well, I wouldn’t hang my hat on any “promises” made regarding future changes. As we all know, many go unfulfilled. But you are right — you are certainly entitled to have this discussion and to let Anet know how you feel. However, some of you may wish to limit your use of the words rational and irrational. They aren’t being used properly, in the traditional or common manner. Hopefully, the discussion will continue on the reveal mechanic, rather than the “I have to change my style” argument. Every update we get game play and professional changes. Everyone has to adapt, not just thieves.

Phys, I agree with some of your points, but you can’t call the hatred of thieves irrational. It has been earned by the large number of people who abuse the daylights out of the stealth mechanic. While it may be human nature to use every tool at your disposal, it’s what these people do with their perma-stealth that infuriates people. No one complains about perma-stealthing in the middle of zerg. It’s the people who use to prey upon the unsuspecting that really turns people off. You can argue that’s part of the game, like it or lump it, but people don’t complain about getting jumped by a guardian.

It’s too bad really. The first 5 thieves on my server who come to mind are very skilled players. They don’t lurk on the other side of doors. They are excellent team players who use their stealth to cover allies and I often see them shadowing small groups like an escort, using their abilities to defend. I’ll take that kind of player anytime.

“Refer to my post above for comments on perma-Stealth.

While this particular implementation has plenty of problems, the main implication of the change is that this is only the beginning of a campaign of similar anti-Stealth changes. It’s safe to assume that ANet intends to make further use of the Revealed mechanic as a hard-counter going forward.

For all those of you who advocate to wait until enough of these are implemented to affect gameplay significantly before complaining, I urge you to consider this metaphor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog[/quote]"

Well, now you are really making my point. Instead of speculating about how this change today will impact gameplay, we should also speculate wildly about changes to the game Anet hasn’t even thought of yet.

I agree with several other posters that eliminating the ability to stack stealth to silly levels would be better than a reveal, on ONE skill, for ONE class. But after reading all the posts crying about the massive unfairness of this act, any sympathy has vanished.

It’s not fair! Now I can’t be in stealth for 3 seconds, every 40 seconds! Of course this only matters is I run into someone who actually uses it…

My entire build and play style is based on being in stealth all the time. This, in combination with the built-in evasions in my attacks and the blindness they cause, is key to my success. What am I supposed to do if other players can see me? Some of them are going to try and kill me! I don’t want to raise my toughness past the 917 I already have.

We thieves are squishy enough as it is. Seriously, they make us wear light armor and there are no ways for us to get vitality or toughness besides traiting for it. Oh wait, that is every other game ever made, except this one.

Engineers, Elementalists, and necros are all long range characters. We have to get really close!

Rangers are very playable in WvW. If being on the front line of Zerg v Zerg is your thing, you might be a little disappointed because you’ll need to keep your pet on passive and by your side. However, in those situations, the brown bear (team condi removal), moas, and jungle stalker are more useful with you at the back line anyway (assuming you are using a bow). Chances are you will want to explore and try things out on your own before diving into Zerg vs Zerg anyway. Rangers do make good Roamers and you most likely will spend your time doing that at first.

Check around for a build/play style you like. The most common are the LB and GS/Sw&horn high damage types and short bow condition/trapping rangers. The melee Ranger is less common, but from my experience very successful. By forcing the fight to occur in a smaller area, it makes it easier for your pet to get in their attacks, and makes on the spot trap skills more useful. But not everyone wants to give up their bow on a regular basis.

This whole conversation is a little premature. We are talking about 1 skill (sic’em) on 1 class (Ranger) with a 40 second cool down. Rangers don’t have a whole lot useful utilities and most builds require some very specific ones to function. Most Rangers still carry Signet of the Hunt to keep their 25% movement, which leaves only 2 slots open. The Beastmaster Ranger is a rare breed. How often do you see one? You should probably wait to see if anyone actually uses it before crying that you’ve have been massively wronged. Incidentally, balance would be if all classes had a skill to cause reveal, including thieves.

On the other hand, if you perma-stealth thieving types are having nightmares about packs of Rangers running around and revealing you, well that serves you right for the large number of your brethren who run around killing sheep to ramp up their bloodlust and then lurk around a resource node waiting for someone to start the gathering animation.

Ooops. Never the use the words “patch” and “time” in the same post on days like today. Entries containing those words often wind up erased.

Usually, the reboot happens between 12PM-1:30PM Eastern Standard Time.

I am sure you can figure out the full glass berserker traits without much thought. If you’re feeling too squishy, try running 30/20/0/20/0 or 30/20/10/10/0.

Marksmanship is obvious and you can either go Beastmaster signets or some people like using Remorseless with the LB/GS combo. This will allow you to #3 stealth and then maneuver behind the opponent for a GS #2/#5 combo. Also works well with on swap GS sigils (hydro/geomancer).

Skirmishing – I think the last 10 points can be a little greedy for this kind of build. 5% for crit chance/10% crit damage boost your numbers a little more, but the 25 & 30 traits really aren’t game-breakers. Unless you do try the stealth and GS backstab, you will rarely be behind your opponent. Obviously take the bow recharge trait. The first slot is a free choice.

WS (10)- You would put 10 points in here for trait (VI) Wilderness Knowledge. Quickening Zephyr has to be in your bar somewhere. Muddy terrain can also be useful, pre-barrage and camps (especially with piecing arrows).

Nature Magic (10 or 20) – The vitality boost is really what you need here, but Nature’s Protection (5 sec protection after thief backstab) is becoming mandatory. At the 20 point slot you can choose between +5% GS damage or Evasive purity. Condition removal is always an issue, even if those aren’t the two I really worry about.

It’s hard to say exactly what you might need without real stat numbers, but this is a place to start and you can fine tune and improve as you go.

Coarr.3286:

crossoverAtt.9680:

no real access to aegis or protection without allies

Master Trait - Companion´s Defense – You and your pet gain 2 seconds of protection when you dodge roll.

[b]Adept[/B] Nature’s Protection – Receive protection for 5 seconds when you take more than 10% damage in a single strike. This effect can only trigger once every 30 seconds.

in my case its 7.5 + 3 seconds(first dodge) + 3 seconds (second dodge) of protection. with 13 sec protection, 21000 hp and 2900 armor i brawl with every thief or warrior in my radiation field and win them all

That’s an excellent point. I think enhancing that trait option is one of the most overlooked plays we have. I am guessing you run 30pts in NM and at least 20 in WS. But it does bring us back around to the idea of whether or not you want to rebuild your entire character just for the frustrating thief encounters.

Although, I suppose you can also get to the 50% protection duration with Runes of the Earth, omnomberry cream, and just 10 points in Nature Magic. That might be doable for more people.

This is the dilemma with the full berserker thief… you can armor up all you want, but it’s only going to get you 1 more heartseeker’s time to live. We have one block across the entire skill line and no real access to aegis or protection without allies. I have 2905 armor. Tonight some guy hit me for 11,900 backstab + heartseeker 59XX + heartseeker 59XX. I was in wide open space and was down before I got to the “t” in WTF. And of course there is an entire culture of thieves out there running around killing deer to crank up their bloodlust, and then sitting in wait on the other side of a door.

Ralk has your options listed out. Of course, you may not want to change your entire build around just for this kind of thief encounter. 30 points in Wilderness Survival is a lot if you wouldn’t normally invest there. The “Nature’s Protection” under nature magic is probably your best bet. At 10 points in NM, it’s reasonably affordable and keeps those second and third hits from being fatal. Hopefully, that buys you the extra two seconds to disengage and heal. Since all classes have that 10% damage/5 sec of protection trait, I suppose the developers feel this is the universal counter to massive spike damage. After that…

I am not sure there is a foolproof way. I like chilling to throw off timing on cooldowns and other damaging conditions play well — so at least you’re hurting them a little while they’re stealthed. This is one area where your pet can really help. Pets with AOE skills that don’t require a visible target (canine howls, etc) can aid you here. Of course, I usually play as a trapping condi ranger, so those skills are available to me. I think it’s even harder with a power LB build. The longbow sometimes gets jammed up when the melee attacker is right on you (or behind) and the #4 skill just goes right on by. Some nifty Greatsword work may be your best bet for power LB.

This was my very first dilemma when I started this game. I really wanted to make a Sylvari, as it was the newcomer to the bunch. I loved my female ranger, but being inexperienced I felt stuck in axe/torch and either bow to deal with mobs. The axe animation never meshed with my idea of the character and I started looking elsewhere. If I were doing it again it would be Sword/Warhorn and either bow. It fits the body mechanics much better, and of course is a sound play choice. The sylvari racial skills are helpful to rangers. The mini-entangle keeps people still while you rapid fire from LB or move in for the kill with Sword. Two dogs (or even 3) can be a real pain when you run into someone solo in WvW, and is still funny in PvE to watch them knock everyone down. And ranger is something of a stand your ground profession where you can make use of the healing seed or turrets. Ah, I almost want to do it over again.

I went with a female norn instead. Shortest possible height. The axe/torch animation was better and I think what really hooked me was I picked up 4 useful pets in the first 5 minutes. From a RP perspective, she was fantastic. I found a face that fit the voice and all the Norn hunting rhetoric actually made sense with my ranger (as opposed to my failed norn necro). You have a 25% speed signet, so that helps with the size/speed perception. Two negatives —- I’ve never really used the norn elites. in PvE it kills your Master’s Bond stacks, which is key to rolling through PvE. Even at the shortest height, she still feels stiff in her movements.

So I’ll leave it at that —- if you want to make a super mobile ranger, go with the Sylvari. The Norn makes a better turret.

Remember the original poster still needs to complete PvE and is at Lvl 25. Arguing over 40+ Fractal abilities is unnecessary. And unless the poster is part of the 1% who obsess over DPS, arguing minutia in that category won’t help him decide either. Besides, we all know skill trumps DPS and all classes can be a serious menace when played well. Unless of course you’re invisible all the time, but that discussion belongs in another thread.

On the first go through, I would hope they have fun with their character. Otherwise there won’t be Fractals and WvW. If you want a DPS min/max character, make it your second, and choose which one of your three you enjoy playing now.

I’d love to compare the answers you would get posting this in each of the respective profession forums… These were my first three characters and I selected them because they were different from each other.

Rangers – Pets aren’t broken. Too many people think the pet should have an AI equivalent to its owner. You could argue some already do. The downside is you will need to keep your pet on passive for most dungeon, WvW zerg, and World Boss fights. This means using your pet to buff, rather deal direct damage. Some people just can’t live with a theoretical loss of DPS. On the bright side, your pet is what makes PvE relatively easy. You can go 1-80 and not die and without playing it safe. If your pet dies a lot in PvE (outside of the first 15 levels), you need to change your strategy, or your traits. Your skill bar won’t change much. The same 3 utilities you use at lvl 20 will still be there at Lvl 80. Whether that is a plus or a minus depends on the user. Condition removal is a serious issue, far more than the pets. But you do have a good healing skills, so all is not lost (at least in PvE). Ranger is a nice first character. If you like exploring and collecting pets, give it a go. It also helps if you like killing things with a bow.

Engineer – The opposite of a ranger. 3 weapon choices. Very limited range. 8,000,000 ways to kill your target. I brought my engi along very slowly. I knew I was going to love it, but wanted to make sure I really could play it before diving in to WvW, PvP, etc. SO many useful utilities, so many tricks. Lots of combo fields, might stacking, party buffs, throwing things, turrets. It really is fun, but I think it is a tough first character unless you study up. Nevertheless, if you love versatility, gadgets, and permanent swiftness, this is the place.

I have a level 80 thief. She is retired and lives in Lion’s Arch making over-priced jewelry. There are a lot of thieves out there, most of whom rush through PvE so they can start terrorizing people in WvW. I had much more difficulty in PvE with my thief than the two above. I am not sure that would be the case now, but stealth isn’t the over-powered menace in PvE that it is in other parts of the game. When an enemy wants to hit you, especially veterans on up, it doesn’t matter if you are stealthed or not. So you wind up playing the bulk of PvE in some sort of D/D, Sw/P. Shortbow combination, spamming 1-2-3. Then you get to lvl 80, decide you want to play WvW/PvP, and you need to learn how to play an entirely different kind of character. This is why you hear so many people complaining about all the “bad thieves” of there. It’s a whole new game. I’m too old to enjoy running around ganking people, and then running away again, all the while singing “nah-nah, you can’t see me!”. It’s not the reason I play this game. And so my girl retired to her kiosk. My guess is that if you really wanted to be a thief, you would have been instantly drawn to the stealth and backstabbing, love it, and not be asking the question above.

I stuck another Long Bow/Sigil of Fire on a different Ranger (with much lower power). Across 15 flame blasts, I got a range of 700-1250 (rounded slightly). It was a fairly even distribution across that range. I’ll admit, I really can’t say whether Sigil of Fire criticals or not, but there is the damage range on a 1950 pwr Ranger, if you’re comparing. But again, this character has a 33% dmg bonus on crit. 1.83 X 700 = 1281. I guess we need to call that coincidence. I don’t know —- my other character’s bow is a transmuted thrice sigiled heirloom. Maybe it mutated. Maybe the proc’ing blow hits a low armored target causing huge damage. Either way, I’d keep the sigil Kyrene.

Solandri’s math is spot on, but of course in PvE, your life doesn’t hang in the balance if sigil procs every 6.5 seconds vs 5. No need to completely min/max in PvE unless that’s what you enjoy. Surprisingly, most people enjoy fiery explosions….

Thanks Noobie and Cufufalating. I’ve been eyeing them since they announced the change and deliberately bought the very cheap Runes of Speed after the update, just to see if the issue was fixed. Strange they didn’t address the Speed Runes at the same time. But I suppose it’s even more bizarre that a year after launch, we still have so many broken sigils and runes.

Gotejjeken: You can do exact calculations from the wiki, but quick math is each 100 points of condition dmg = 5/sec bleed —- 10/sec poison —-- 25/sec burning.

Also, I don’t think you want sigil of bursting (6% condition damage). If you have 1000 condi dmg, you get 60 more (=3/sec bleed — 6 poison). That’s not a great improvement, although non-interfering choices are limited.. I am not sure why it sells for so much. Perhaps availability, or maybe for a necro going all out. An alternate choice for an offhand weapon might be sigil of malice (6 condi duration). However, given your current build with zero in marksmanship (and thus 0% in condi duration), I don’t think you would get the full benefit. You need to get those conditions up to the next full second, the damage doesn’t hit the extra time.

Yes, thieves and necros… a ranger’s best friends. They know we have horrible condition removal and will target you. I cringe every time I see a two thief/necro team running around my borderland. I like freezing the perma stealth thieves — frost trap/axe 3/chill from pet, and not necessarily all in a row. It’s really all I can do to throw off their skill recharge and keep them visible. Within this forum, I;m sure there are a lot of suggestions.

With necros, watch out for the initial Death Shroud attack (the swarm). It’s hard to pick up because the 1st skill (#2) is a teleport and chill – and now it’s too late. Really high condi necros can do 15-17K in the intial burst. There’s nothing you can do, but keep as far back as possible. Necros have crappy weapons range, so keep moving and fire short bow #3 every time it comes up to keep your swiftness.

If you’re by yourself and run into a mesmer, just leave. 80-90% of mesmers in WvW are cloners. They may not be able to kill you, but you can’t kill them either. 20 minutes wasted. The primary job of a mesmer is to be a distraction. Most are very good at doing that.

Sigil of Battle, or any on swap weapon sigil can be tricky if you use an “on crit” sigil on your other weapon. Since most of the on crit sigils have 5 or 10 second cool downs, you’ll almost never get the on swap one. If you use on swap sigils, you usually need to have it on both your primary and secondary weapons. Personally, I find sigil of battle and sigil of might difficult to use with rangers. We tend to swap weapons with a tactical purpose, rather than switching to deliberately stack might. I tried using a superior sig of might (on crit 30% might) along with runes of strength and a longbow. I thought with barrage and rapid fire I could pile up stacks of might in PvE like crazy. It never really worked out. Even if you fire 1 shot/sec with 100% crit chance, it’s only 3 stacks of might in 10 sec (the same as your sig of battle). 97 pwr and 97 condition dmg sound fine, but that only adds 5 dmg/sec to your beed/10 to poison and remeber short bow has .4 weapon strength, so you only realize 40% of any power increases. It never winds up being worth it.

I think the two sigils you want to look at are sigil of earth and sigil of blood. I like the sigil of earth on the short bow for the obvious reasons. At 900 condi dmg, you’re doing roughly 88 dmg/sec on 1 stack of bleeding. Multiply by 10-15 stacks and people just gush away. I like sigil of blood on the axe. At 50% crit rate (or thereabouts), you will hit three targets on each throw —- 6 targets in two throws — 3 of which will critical – 1 of which will trigger the sigil giving you 450+ health every 2-3 seconds. There are certainly other choices, but when I solo a camp, I only have to use a heal skill if I make a mistake. Against a single target, your proc rate will obviously drop, but in those situations you would probably axe 3, torch 4, axe 2 and then into short bow for the duration. I would stick your reclaimed sigil of corruption on a torch. It’s not that the weapon choice matters, but there may be times where you go axe/warhorn to run and you’ll get caught out. Having the sigil of blood may save you, where as getting +10 condition dmg only matters if you survive.

Rune of the traveler sounds great — and if it works, I will use them too. However, they are brand new and somewhat pricey. The issue is the #6 trait +25% movement speed. Fantastic. However, the Rune of Speed has the same #6 skill and it has never worked. It’s been broken since launch, as far as I know. Superior Rune of Speed is still broken, as of today September 11, 2013. I have the full set on my lvl 78 engi. No speed bonus. I would be concerned about buying a pricey set until we can confirm the speed boost works. If any one has them, please let us know. I don’t blame you for hanging on the Signet of Hunt. I can’t play without either, and I also only run 1 trap at a time, outside of special circumstances.

The forest spider is the less useful of the three for shortbow rangers. You can poison any time you want. It can be a compliment for long bow rangers. However, the other two are nice. Untraited – 10 sec of weakness for the cave spider and a 3 second immobilize for the jungle. And of course, with your BM points, a lot of pets will be effective for you. Glad to here you’re having fun.

Well, first off, congratulations on trying to make a Beast Master build for WvW. It’s one of the more difficult set-ups. Pets have a much harder time tracking the highly mobile human targets, and when you put 30 into BM, you have to give up something valuable elsewhere. I think your gear and overall numbers are pretty good. I wouldn’t change anything until you’ve locked a style in place.

The hot thread in this forum today runs a 20/20/0/0/30 and 30/10/0/0/30 is also suggested. I’ve run both in WvW, but ultimately found I was still susceptible to what all rangers are —- massive condition damage and back-stabbing thieves. That does not mean they are not viable and I am still trying to make it work, although with safer gear the OP in that category. You just have to give something up in return. You’ve given up your marksmanship traits, which frankly I just don’t have the guts to do. I find the second level of traits (@20) too hard to live without.

I think the one thing you do need to give up is your off-hand axe. Axe #4 and 5 just don’t work in WvW. Nobody stands still for #4 and I’m not sure what you can with Axe 5, other than draw a lot of attention to yourself when it ends. Main hand axe is great, especially on a condi and trap build. Consider off-hand torch, which also might allow you to dump flame trap for your stun breaker (or double up on fire when taking a camp). You can use Quickening zephyr as a stun breaker, but of course you have to have the patience not to pop it right off the bat. I have a condi/shortbow/trapping ranger with similar stats to you. The QZ, along with a sigil of earth on my shortbow, is essential for really piling on the pressure. With a 47% crit chance, I can peak @ 20 stacks of bleeding with standard pet help.

Try it with a different 2nd weapon set up and see how it goes. If you are still having trouble, you may need to make a decision about traps vs BM. I chose traps. The most common build is 20/30/20/0/0 – with mostly the same traits you have now. In a 4 or 5 person group (or larger) that would be my recommendation. However, I run solo quite a bit with this ranger. I made her to solo camps in quick order and chase on her own. I find myself running 20/30/10/0/10 most of the time. Those 10 points in BM really don’t make much of damage difference, but the vitality for the pet does. At 0 points, I feel like I can only use bears and drakes. Everything else can’t make it to my next heal. With the 10 points in BM, that problem mostly goes away and I can use any pet effectively (or at least as much as anyone can). The other thing to consider in a trapping set-up is using your pet as a trapper too, rather than a pure damage dealer. Malicious training (Marksmanship II) increases your pet condition duration by 50%. Not groundbreaking for poison, but that’s 15 seconds of AOE weakness from a black bear and more than 6 seconds chill from owls, ice drakes, and my favorite snow dog. That is often enough to turn a fight in your favor, and when combined with frost trap and axe 3 on an ill-prepared player, just cruel (and fun). You’ve already got a spider queued up, so your half-way there. The two of the three spiders can be very useful in a trapping build and do a better job staying out of danger. Good luck.

You suggested Sigil of Fire was inappropriate for Rangers. However, you did not offer a reason why or a counter suggestion. You simply stated it, as a matter of fact.

The OP is trying to decide whether to use the SoF, or sell it. If you read the OP’s second post, he mentions he is a casual player, thus we’re not talking about PvP. Another poster already mentioned taking Air over Fire for PvP, and I concur. The OP identified he was considering it for his long bow, so we’re not talking about sticking on a GS slow attack rate weapon. As all of those points were already made, I thought you had something unique to offer as far as mechanics or strategy, but were withholding it for some reason.