Showing Posts For mando.2730:
Down stage brings many interesting boss mechanics otherwise would not be available to the game. Boss can do 100k dmg, but you still could get up.
Remove it is silly. Let along with trinity. If anyone want instant death and trinity, there is a game called wow. We DO NOT need another wow clone. No, thank you. Just go to wow. So you could always die there and no one will res you .
Removing the downed state would not make gw2 a wow clone, and I don’t want the trinity, I just want more solidified roles or significant stat changes etc that will promote build diversity in PvE content.
It seems to you like that because you still attached to typical rpg system. It’s an rpg with action combat system.
“still attached” – How can one become attached to something one hasn’t experienced? Perhaps I am attached to the idea? I can tell you that I am not. You can choose to believe or disbelieve me if you want.
(edited by mando.2730)
Don’t try to make the game what it is not, and will never be. Tanks and Healers have no place here by design
It seems like bad design that healing power and toughness/vitality are stats, yet there is no place for tanks or healers. What is the point in having these stats (especially healing power), if healing has no place?
Healing power makes sense in pvp where your objective can be about defending a point. In pve you are an attacker.
Yeah the diversity in sPvP and even WvW is far better than in PvE. I love playing a healer, or a tank, or a DPS in PvE, but unfortunately there isn’t any point in playing anything other than DPS in gw2. There are some ‘support’ roles that you can fill of course (boon sharing on a guard etc), but it never feels like a solid role, just a secondary thing to DPS (as a side note it has been mentioned that a good idea would be to have to spec into boons/condis more with gear than you currently can, to achieve better boonscondis – e.g. without spec protection is only -10% inc damage etc, and blind is only effective 20% of the time etc).
I suppose not having solid roles is what they were going for in the beginning anyway, but if that is truly what they wanted (dps, support, control I believe it was), then they’ve made a huge mess of the stats system in that there is almost no point in running most stat sets for PvE.
As people have said already, damage and rez mechanics. All other mmos you cannot get killed in 1 second by an enemy player of the same level and stats. It would require all damage to be reworked.
Yes, after reading some of the replies here, it seems that there are some deep-rooted problems with the damage mechanics etc in this game, which lead to a very unbalanced stat system in PvE. For example, I have never come across a situation where there is a need for healing, or speccing into healing even making sense at all <— just kill it quicker with zerker = less damage taken anyway. (Note that I still run a cleric ele sometimes as I enjoy healing, even though people rage at me for it).
GW2 has a lot of the same types of people, but with GW2 the game has been designed less on being individually competitive and focusing more on players working together in a more casual way. This is something that makes GW2 a lot better.
You’re right, perhaps the majority PvE content is just too casual for me. I don’t wish it to be though.
You don’t wish it to be?
You didn’t come back from WoW did you and now you’re trying to change the game to suit yourself ?
A lot of us like the downed state, why should the game change so that you get your way ?
Without the downed state this game would become boring for a lot of us.
The game has been designed this way, so stop trying to get it designed the way you want it.
Casual is good as it tends to keep the elitists at bay.
This is the kind of hostility I had hoped not to see. Let the record show that I am not a WoW player, nor have I ever been. I agree that there is nothing wrong with having a casual game to keep the general population happy/ make it easier for newcomers, but that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t/couldn’t be a hardcore option.
I’ve seen a lot of great responses here, thanks everyone for your input. There have been some slightly… hostile responses, but on the whole it has been mostly constructive.
From what I’ve read, there are a few people who don’t seem to understand the risk vs reward imbalance with running glassy specs due to never actually dying, however I have been shown by the responses here that this may only apply to good players, and that the risk is already high enough for bad players (assuming they aren’t being carried by good players of course). This has lead me to agree with a few people here, in that a ‘hard mode’ for dungeons could go a very long way.
A hard mode could remove the downed state (as well as add/remove many other mechanics – as well as increased rewards of course), which could provide more skilled players with a higher risk for running glassy builds, while not affecting those newer/worse players, as they could just do the normal mode.
The responses here have pointed out countless other issues that exist in PvE content, some of which I already knew of, but others I had not heard of before.
Once again, great responses on the whole.
Regards,
Josh.
I do see a point in your offer, though I don’t see a point in posting this offer here.
You do realize that this is a core feature of the game and it won’t be changed?
If you do realize that, why would you post this? Just curious, no offence.
Where would you have me post this suggestion? This thread is merely a means to promote a discussion, I’m not holding a knife to Colin’s throat demanding it be implemented or anything :P
read OP but I havent read all responses.
I do like some ideas in this thread.
I don’t think removing downed state will help taking away meta it will only result to a new one, what one I do not know yet. But the reason about downed state negates the down side of Zerker is true IMO.
Combined with some ideas in this post with some of mine I have thought about.
Hard Mode dungeons:
Removing downed state and gives enemies more skills to evade and move around.Some other “fixes”:
- Can’t ress by killing a target (But regen when OoC).
- Stats effects downstate more like, Healing power gives more healing, Vitality gives more starting HP when downed, Thougness, Precision, Ferocity, condition damage and Power is ofc pretty clear what they do.
- Enemies will avoid stacked players and AoE push/pull skills when there are 3 or more players in a stack to long. (I am no programmer so I dunno if it is possible)
- Make healing power better than protection buff wich require no stats.
- Remove Zerker and maby Assassin stats.
Some good ideas. Great post. (And as a programmer, yes that is possible – I don’t know how messy their code is nearly 3 years on though, so maybe it could be difficult for them to implement).
GW2 has a lot of the same types of people, but with GW2 the game has been designed less on being individually competitive and focusing more on players working together in a more casual way. This is something that makes GW2 a lot better.
You’re right, perhaps the majority PvE content is just too casual for me. I don’t wish it to be though.
But i didnt have to go that far: i’ve run cof p1 and 2 countless times and i still die with my ele if the wind blows in the wrong direction. yesterday, without going too far, in the end boss of p2, i was feared and ran through 2 areas, getting downed in the second. Nothing i could do. Why? because i was running with a berserker build.
Right, but you should’ve been defeated, not downed. Perhaps in this circumstance it didn’t matter either way, but in another scenario, perhaps once again you went down, because you were running a glassy spec and didn’t time your dodge etc correctly, but this time you are close to your team, and they just come over and res you and you’re back in the game, no harm done. <— This is a big issue, in my eyes at least.
skilled zerkers can also avoid going down anyhow, so really you wouldnt be changing anything, but crippling the average players greatly.
You should have to be skilled to play a zerker, players should be punished for running a glassy spec. If you aren’t a good player, then you shouldn’t be able to run a super glassy spec, it’s only logical.
You cannot single out Downed State which clearly plays a much greater role in different aspects of the game than just in the scenario mentioned by you.
You’re right, I was only thinking about it in terms of PvE, but whether or not it has a real need to be in the other game modes, I don’t know.
4. Dodge – which enables glass cannons to kill Lupi – lol by your argument we should remove dodge from the game first.
Perhaps dodge should be removed from the game. Dodging however, has some level of skill associated with it where the downed state does not.
Good input thanks.
1st: Zerk isn’t OP, it’s having perma invulnerability through dodges, blinds, aegis, more blinds, stunds/dazes, interupts and so on, wich is OP. The fact the only logical choice for gear being zerk when not taking dmg at all should be clear. I’d think this would be a better perspective…
Yes there are certainly some other mechanics that need a look over for balance issues.
The moment you go down, you either failed yourself OR the team failed to provide active defence.
Exactly, and if you’ve failed or your team has failed, there should be some consequence aside from the small loss in dps uptime while you’re being revived.
Of courese there are a lot of different options reducing dmg. making the downed state missable for etruly experienced runners, but it would destory the wannabee zerker rings…
Destroying the wannabee zerkers would of course be a good thing. It should be a build that takes serious skill to run.
You keep insisting that zerker gear has no “downs”. It has, you die more easily.
But the point is that you don’t actually die. You get downed.
I wonder what that whole zerker complaining is really about. I suspect it is 10% trinity fans finally wanting to get their beloved, dusty system in here and 90% bad players who cannot manage damage mitigation in zerker, feel left out and demand better players having their toys removed.
Well for me, it’s that zerker is too superior over every other build. Which causes the game to be unbalanced, and almost forces people to play zerker just so they can feel effective.
It balances the game vs. spike damage that can take a player to zero health fast but then is left in a weakened state. If there was no downed state, glass cannon builds could shoot teams down fast like ele-spike in guild wars 1 PvP.
Right, so if you can’t dodge the damage or negate it with boons like aegis or protection, then don’t run a zerker, and you won’t insta die.
After reading the OP, I have to ask were you here from bwe or the launch of the game?
I watched beta content but I didn’t play the beta.
Removing the down state from pve at this point would only do one thing:
Create an even more specific rift in the LFG tool or make it useless altogether. People would only want to party with people they know that can carry their own weight without becoming a useless corpse. It would make those who tolerate the odd carry in their party change and be less forgiving, leading to new less experienced players being kicked. New players would get frustrated quicker and possibly give up playing altogether.
Alternatively, new players would just not run zerker until they get better at the game? There should be some big risk for running a build as strong as zerker, currently there is not due to the fact that you have so many second chances when dying.
The people who use glass builds that have taken the time to learn their profession and use effective team configurations will generally melt any mobs before there is any real danger to the group.
Exactly, so if they’re good at the game, they should be able to play zerker, though currently, even people who aren’t good at the game can usually get away with it. (“downed, oh no nvm back up now” etc)
What your lengthy posts have been about is not so much a game mechanic as it is about a learn to play issue. Basically you are saying that 3 years into the game you don’t have any challenging content available to you. I might suggest that you try amuse yourself with 2-3 manning the usual dungeons you 5 man. When that becomes too easy there is always soloing content.
My issue is more to do with the fact that zerker is too easy (due to those second chance deaths I mentioned), not that the content itself is too easy.
Hrm, while I agree that it would add meaningful risk to squishy character setups, I don’t think removing the downed state would be sensible. Overall, we die fast in GW2. Removing the ability to come back from that would be overly punishing for players.
We die fast because we run zerker. If we don’t run zerker, we don’t die as fast, thus the “punishment” is actually just the risk of playing zerker.
No, it would not just magically make there be more diversity. People would continue to run Berserker and, in a stubborn fury, would become even more angry when people messed up than when it happens now. Berserker is not the most optimal for people that can’t survive consistently, and thus “ping zerker” would become not just a simple entry requirement, but would instead be a “are you actually any good at this game?” call. If you don’t have it, you’re not good enough. And are you seriously going to tell me that people are actually going to admit to not being good at that game as a general whole?
People who mess up too much won’t play a zerker, as the risk is too high. People who only want zerkers and good players can have that too. The other players who can’t play zerker or don’t want to play zerker, can play too, except now, they aren’t being punished for not running zerker. Now they have made a balanced/meaningful choice between squishiness and damage. Previously, they still had this choice, but it was not really meaningful, due to the risk vs reward factor being so unbalanced for zerkers.
There’s nothing wrong with being bad at a game, I would hope that people understand this.
It already has its own ups and downs. Vitality and Toughness, if put on in significant amounts, directly make you live longer. That’s an upside that is 100% there and entirely relevant for times you get hit. Its downsides are the entire rest of the sets of stats that aren’t being pumped up. However, when time is literally the only desired thing, the obvious answer is the one that has the fastest possible potential as a general rule. Even if it’s not always the right choice some of the times (there are plenty of people that die enough that tankier stats would be a good idea).
See ‘risk vs reward’ in terms of zerker gear mentioned above. High ups + low downs = unbalanced.
Requiring that everyone get onto specific spots (in this case: the same one) and use their skills in a specific time and order is literally the most coordination that’s possible in this game, or really any MMO out there. Stacking requires that for most dungeons to go smoothly when using Berserker stats, and requires it in 100% of them for optimal times. Similarly, standing right next to everything that can one-shot you and using your dodges/defensive skills at the opportune time is a very obvious application of skill.
Your idea of stacking seems to be a glorified one, stacking involves all 5 players standing in one spot, blasting for might etc and using their damage skills to burst down an enemy. If that is skill then I must be a pro player.
you can really play anything in the dungeons, it doesn’t have to be a zerker, but you should still provide decent amount of damage.
“can really play” – This has been responded to a couple times now. Check above for response.
Of course zerkers are most effective, something always has to be. It’s much better that they make us bring full dps build instead of having to play frustrating tank builds-
Unfortunately zerker is too superior to other builds, and the reason is related to the risk vs reward stuff mentioned earlier.
Downed state is one of the best things in this game, countless of times when i fought veterans/elites/champions i managed to kill while downed at the last second, LAST SECOND before fully dying… you don’t have this in any other games…
Yes, as previously mentioned it does have its fun little moments. It makes for good viewing I suppose, which may have been something on their minds when they created it.
It would not help with anything at all, taking the downed state out, it would just frustrate and infuriate people more, and you would get kicked out of a party so much more fast for the smallest mistake (maybe you had lag for 2-3 seconds, or maybe you play a squishy class and pressed the wrong button…I’m maining a thief so timing is essential, and a few times i pressed the wrong button by mistake and resulted in my death…well not death death but Downed State)
Right, so the people who make mistakes too much wouldn’t play glassy builds, because the risk would be too high for them, that’s the point, that’s the way it should be.
No matter what ANET does, players will always find the most optimal build. Take out zerker? another will become the new META, it’s just how things are.
See my previous response to this, regarding ups and downs of different gear sets.
On my warrior i don’t run Full Zerker, on my Thief also…it’s just more fun to experiment with different builds and sets…until you get something that feels like home.
As previously mentioned, of course you can run different builds, but when zerker has such low risk vs such high reward, it makes no sense to run different builds. This is the main point that needs changing, there are multiple ways to do this, and this was just a suggestion of one of the ways it could be balanced more.
So yeah i’m sorry but stupid idea, to take out downed state it would destroy the game. Cheers
Thanks for your feedback, however you didn’t really specify how/why it would “destroy the game”.
Pve balance doesn’t matter.
It does for people who enjoy playing PvE. Please try to be less ignorant in the future.
Personally, I would just remove zerker gear from the game entirely. In other words, I would just stick Vitality onto all gear, as a non-optional stat. Pretty much in the same way as you have Stamina, as a non-optional stat, in WoW.
Interesting idea. I’d love to run some numbers on this and see how it could potentially affect things. I had never thought about removing the set altogether.
People feeling forced to run zerker does not make them (or some of them, at least) happy and it is bad for the game, as it helps facilitate this abysmally dull, effectively compulsory, skip>stack>melee playstyle. You’re right, the downed state, also, probably doesn’t help, either, as doesn’t the fact that buffs are gained from stacking only. As both of these things make the most boring part of the gameplay (IMO), in this game (i.e. stacking), the most optimal.
Yes there are multiple things that seem to be contributors. As an aside, I made this post specifically about the downed state as it was something that I had never seen anyone mention before.
…and yes, yes, we all know you could, in theory, make your own group, where everyone has to where pink only and stand on their heads eating spaghetti, while playing, if you wanted to. But, that is not the point here, as you shouldn’t have to always make your own groups in order to play in a more inventive, less restrictive, less mind-numbingly boring way. …and the more interesting way should never be the less efficient way.
Thank you! I’m glad that you understand the point, I have heard many people say before “just play however you want, it doesn’t matter”, when in fact, the simple fact that zerker and stacking etc is so much more viable means that it really does matter. When you know that your build is far less effective than full zerker, it almost forces you to run a zerker, because you obviously want to be as effective as possible.
Making the game interesting, for all and preventing cheesing should be the primary job of the game’s devs; not its players. Especially as we all know that most hardcore players will always go the quickest and easiest route, even if it ruins the game for others and makes them just give up and leave.
Yeah, and I suppose it is a difficult job. I have nothing against the ArenaNet devs, and I’m sure that they’re trying their best to rebalance their game (while still having to pump out new content to keep the boss happy).
Thanks for the input.
Yeah it certainly provides for some fun and interesting moments (“Holy crap that was epic!” moments as I said in the post). Of course there are lots of issues that need sorting out for PvE, but I just feel as though the downed state is something that doesn’t need to be there, and I do believe that removing would add a need to have players not being so glassy. Or as stated, at least get rid of the silly rally from kill mechanic.
WvW has real people rather than AI, so I suppose we should also be pointing the finger at bad AI design in PvE? Something which they have said is getting fixed in HoT apparently.
Thanks for your input.
Note: I forgot to mention that when it comes to the meta shifting, while knights may become more prevalent, that doesn’t mean it would be ‘the new zerker’, where everyone runs it. As I stated, the only reason everyone runs zerker is that there are no real ‘downs’. Comparing zerker and everything else, zerker wins every time, whereas comparing knights and everything else, knights doesn’t always win, as it is more balanced compared to all other gear sets.
- In GW2, build is largely a function of traits, weapon choices and utility/elite choices.
- Gear serves a different purpose, determining whether you do largely condition or direct damage, and the continuum trade-off between glass cannon and bulky.
Gear is of course heavily tied into what a ‘build’ is. E.g. As you said, if I build in my traits and weapon choices for conditions, then whether or not I choose condi damage gear makes a huge difference on my builds effectiveness. I would personally not split ‘build’ and gear up, gear is part of the build.
- You propose a means to make dungeon instances harder. This could move more players to the bulk side of the glass/bulk scale. All this would do is create a greater dichotomy in the LFG. Those who could still do the content as glass would, and would shun those who cannot, same as now. So, you’d have more players being shunned. They would then likely adopt a different gear set that had some bulk while still doing high damage. Perhaps we’d see a Knight’s meta. Then we’d see people kittening about it. Meanwhile, the real issue, dungeons that have been done ad infinitum and as a result are obsolete, would still be in place.
I promote a means to provide some real consequences for running a glassy spec, where there currently is none. This would lead to lfg posts being more divided, but that also means that they would be more varied! Not just ‘zerker only’. This is a good thing. There will always be players who shun others, that cannot be prevented, and I don’t believe that “more” players would be shunned. Yes we would see the meta shift, and knights may become the ‘optimal’ choice for direct damage, but that makes some sense at least, as it is a balance of damage and defense, a middle ground, rather than the current meta which makes very little sense.
- You believe your suggestion would promote diversity. It would not. Diversity is already in the game, in the form of the contributions the various professions bring to the table, and in the versatility to switch out weapons and skills between combats to meet the different needs of the next encounter. There is more build diversity in GW2 than you find in trinity games, where all party members use the same builds the entire instance.
Diversity inside each profession is what, in terms of build diversity. It does exist already of course, but it is not promoted due to the zerker meta having no real consequence. Of course gw2 has more diversity than trinity mmos, but it isn’t promoted in PvE, which means in most scenarios it may as well have not been there in the first place.
- Even if you insist on gear diversity, exchanging one “best” gear set for a different “best” gear set is not going to create diversity. At best, you’d have two camps, using different sets. At worst, you’d still have “zerker only” and you’d have more people kittening about it.
The idea is that every gear set should have its ups and downs, perhaps as stated earlier, knights would become far more prevalent, but as I said, that makes sense, as it is the middle ground for direct damage. The problem is that zerker has huge ups, and small downs, therefore rendering it far superior to anything else.
- GW2 dungeons can be done now in any gear set one desires. The only thing you cannot do is get into those LFG parties that require a given set. However, if you make the dungeons substantially harder, you are going to limit the options of every “anything goes” party out there. That would kill gear diversity, rather than promote it.
Of course it is correct that any gear set can complete content, although as stated earlier, zerker is so superior compared to other sets, that it doesn’t make sense to run anything else most of the time. Also, it seems that you think I want dungeons to be substantially harder, when in fact, all I want is there to be a real consequence for running a glassy spec (you die). Therefore, the options of “anything goes” parties will not be affected at all.
- You seem to believe that “not stacking” is fighting properly. ANet designed dungeons, originally, to challenge “coordinated groups of skilled players.” Whether they succeeded or not, what is there to coordinate in GW2 other than the application of offensive or defensive buffs? And where do you have to be to benefit from those buffs? Game design suggest that fighting in proximity to each other is intended, and is thus fighting properly.
Stacking does not take coordination, and does not take skill. So where does that leave the stacking method of fighting? The majority of people I know who play the game all believe (at least partially) that stacking is more of an exploit than anything else.
Thanks for your feedback,
Josh.
(edited by mando.2730)
I agree, it isn’t the only viable build in my opinion (as can be gleaned by the fact that I want more build diversity in the game), but it is the best choice far and away, as it provides very high rewards, for very little risk. Even bad players can play a zerker build and get away with it for almost all PvE content, all I want to do is increase the risk so that playing a zerker becomes less viable on the whole (assuming that everyone isn’t amazing at the game).
My problem isn’t with the restrictions people put on their lfg posts, my problem is that zerker is the only restriction, and rightly so, as it is by far the most (and in some peoples opinions, the only) viable build.
Playing as a zerker is fun, I do like it. But the risk for playing as a zerker is not high enough to merit the reward it currently gives.
Let me know what your thoughts are on this issue, and please provide constructive feedback about my proposed change. Please try to keep replies on the topic of the downed state as much as possible, rather than having it spew over into too many other topics.
Kind regards,
Josh.
P.S. My apologies for the long post.
Hello forum,
This is my first post on here, and it is regarding something that is core to the game, but is, in my opinion, hurting the game. The downed state. I understand that the downed state can provide a lot of “Holy crap that was epic!” moments, especially in sPvP, but on the whole, I believe it is damaging the build versatility in this game. Most of this post will be PvE related, but please feel free to comment in regards to sPvP and WvW also.
Please read everything I have to say before posting your replies. Thank you.
Guild Wars 2 has many great combat mechanics that aid in the versatility of build design, some of these could do with some changes of their own (e.g. in my opinion there are too many boons and condis that can be flung around by players who aren’t even specced into boons and condis at all), but on the whole, the combat mechanics provide a fairly solid foundation for versatility in build creation.
Unfortunately, as we all know, in PvE build versatility flies out the door. “AC P3. Exp 80s only. ZERKER.” “Link gear please.” “No necros.” etc. In PvE, if you aren’t running zerker, you aren’t as viable for the team. I understand that there will always be the want to kill enemies as fast as possible to clear a dungeon asap, and also the less time an enemy is alive, the less time they have to hurt you. But I feel that there is not enough consequence for players running a full zerker build. This is due to many factors, including the ever prevalent stacking tactics in a lot of PvE content.
But I propose this to you: How many times have you been stacked in a corner, bursting down an enemy with all of your zerker friends, when all of a sudden, one or two or even three of your party get put into the downed state (after all, you are all standing on that big boss and taking all of his damage), only to be immediately rallied off a nearby low level enemy, or speed ressed by the rest of the party? The party finishes off the boss, collects rewards and moves on. There was no real consequence for those players ‘dying’.
What if, those players had actually DIED? Defeated. Deaderoony. No downed state, just dead. Now all of a sudden, the team is one or two or three players down, and have potentially lost 20, 40, or 60% of their DPS. The boss is quite likely too hard to kill now, as the DPS has been lowered, AND the boss focusses targets more often, and the team most likely wipes. Now we have some real consequence for the team running a full zerker setup.
Of course, they could instead not stack, and fight the boss ‘properly’. This would decrease their overall damage done, but if they are actually good players, they could still kill the boss while surviving themselves, all still while being full zerker. But in this scenario, the only reason they were able to run glassier builds is because they are good players (which makes sense).
So now, we’ve removed the downed state, and all of a sudden people are finding that dungeon runs are too hard to do with a full zerker setup (aside from the good players potentially), so people start trying out tankier builds. Builds that give them more health, more armour, more healing power, so that they don’t die so easily. Now our lfg post says “AC P3. Exp 80s only. Looking for dps” or “… Looking for healer” or even “AC P3. Exp 80s only.”
I know ArenaNet stated very early on that they didn’t want people to have to depend on a certain role and potentially have to wait around for that role to be filled, but I think they overestimated how long it would take for that role to be filled with an active player base, and also, as can be seen with my 3rd lfg example above, I personally don’t believe a team would ‘have’ to depend on any role, they might find that it’s easier when they have a healer in their group, but that doesn’t mean that they could not finish the content without one, they would just have to play smarter.
I do not believe that the downed state will be removed from the game, it has been there for too long. I only wish they had never come up with it in the first place. I would love if it was removed, but I just can’t see it happening. At least a minor tweak they could make would be to remove the rally from kill mechanic, as this comes under ‘exploit’ in my books in most scenarios (especially PvE). At least with the rallying gone teams would actually have to revive downed players rather than just burst down a weak enemy, but it wouldn’t be as grand a fix as removing the downed state completely.
Of course, as I stated earlier, there are other mechanical issues that need fixing, and removing the downed state would not be the be all and end all solution to the (in my opinion) toxic zerker meta, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction.