Guild Wars 2

sminkiottone.6972:

The discussion was made several times, here a dev post :

Tyler Chapman.1832:

If you queue up attacks prior to the player stealthing, they will still land. Ranged attacks that is.

Hope this clears it up!

Skills like rapid fire are ment to track the target even after stealth.

Thanks for digging it

Well so even if i still find this illogical seems like it is working as intended!

Terrahero.9358:

shinigamith.7120:

I don’t want stealth to be buffed.

But that is exactly whats going to happen. So what is your real problem here? You dont want stealth buffed, but then suggest exactly that. Keep in mind, your idea that this is a bug and not a deliberate feature is your opinion.

You have not in anyway brought up a reasonable argument that would suggest it is infact a bug. Your opinion, or how you feel about it, are not reasonable arguments.

You’re right about the fact that i can’t prove that it’s a bug and in fact anet only know it.

But hey i don’t expect them to answer here so what am i doing is promoting my idea. If it’s right that it’s a bug and it happen that they fix it, that’s effectively gonna be a slight up for stealth but i don’t expect they make this fix without consideration in wich case it’s not gonna be a up anymore.

BolshoiBooze.3406:

shinigamith.7120:

Pretty much everything you said.

Mate, you need to take a step back, read the entire thread again and try to objectively look at things. It’s utterly ridiculous how hypocritcal you’re being in your argueing. When someone provides you with an arguement in favor of stealth tracking (i.e. it’s one of the very few counters to stealth) you shoot it down saying it’s overpowered, it’s a faulty mechanic, etc. At the same time, you defend stealth itself by saying not being able to deal with stealth outside of said trackig is a L2P issue. You do this for every arguement made. You can’t have it both ways, man.

I’m not trying to insult you, but it’s very, very obvious that you lack experience with non-stealth classes. If you’d play them and then look back at what you said in this thread, you’d realize the things you’re saying are adverse to eachother.

If a cat is black, wether you like it or not i’m gonna say the cat is black. If it’s a l2p issue, wether you like it or not i’m gonna call it a l2p issue.

To end with this (sorry i can’t answer big slab like these everyday)

-I consider being followed by someone is a bug that need a fix
-I have no problem with the new spells that are added to counter stealth

So if you want to counter stealth (which is funny since thieves that fight thieves do not have problem to achieve this => l2p issue) simply use these new skills or the old #1+AoE spam wich actually works pretty well

Otaur.9268:

LOL… Dodging is the damage mitigation. Toughness is not. When stealth grants thieves the ability to backstab players with over 3k armor for 10k damage, Dodge is the best form of mitigation, sorry.

If you forget that with 2k1 toughness i don’t even take 10K damages on a backstab and that landing a 6k on a war/guardian is very good.

Bryzy.2719:

I can see it’s pointless trying to argue with you because you’re clutching at straws with trivial matters such as the distance of a cleave.

You are the one that brought the distances of a cleave here with your “only greatsword can do this”;

Do i have to add hypocrisis to the list of the flaw you are showing? You are trying to use one of your mistakes to discretid one of my answer thats hillarious.

Bryzy.2719:

5. Most of the arguments you are presenting are flawed to some degree, yet you’re not helping your own cause by being ignorant towards people who are showing you why you’re wrong.

I asked you to remind me what i have ignored since i’m not a robot. And you didn’t. you’re not helping your own cause by being ignorant towards people who are showing you why you’re wrong.

Bryzy.2719:

4. The huge majority of people agree with my standpoint in this thread

I don’t care of the majority.

Bryzy.2719:

3. You are trying to remove a large aspect of stealth counter-play because you feel that it makes your gameplay experience too difficult, yet many other thieves/stealth users seem to be able to deal with it just fine – if they couldn’t, we’d see a lot more QQ about the subject, yet yours is the only thread I’ve seen on the topic

I’m trying to remove a bug. And with all the thief hate in these forum why the thieves would come here and QQ. To face haters like you that just want to prove they are right but have nothing to argue?

Bryzy.2719:

2. Every aspect of every gameplay style needs to have counter-play to ensure balance

Yes and stealth allready have counter-plays no need to add a bug like this

coglin.1867:

shinigamith.7120:

coglin.1867:

So let me get this straight. In an action combat game, in which dodging is designs as the main form of damage mitigation. You exploit stealth to circumvent that mechanic. Then cry when other players use channeling a skill, to circumvent a mechanic that you are using to circumvent one of the most integral and main universal game mechanic. Maybe it is just me, but this complain seems to me. to fall deep on the side of unreasonable hypocrisy (to put it politely) to me.

The reasoning is nice but you’re wrong at it’s start:

Dodging is not designed as the main form of damage mitigation. Actually it’s more designed to avoid a threat that can be either damage or crowd control. If you want a damage mitigation dedicated system you have toughness and the protection boon wich are the main form of damage mitigation since they are 100% dedicated to it.

That said when i use stealth i want to buy time and to take the hand and decide when the fight is gonna continue. Note that I still can take damages and crowd control during the stealth so im not trying to circumvent the dodge

Do you have any evidence to support that? there are dev post that state otherwise.

As a thief to mitigate damage i have my active defense i.e my skillbar and the initiative system. Dodge is a way to negate crowd control since i have only 1 stun breaker that is a teleportation too and a condition removal too (and so i don’t allways use it to stun break).

What is dodging for the other profession is not important here since we are not talking about the other one

Bryzy.2719:

@shinigamith

Your “hard vs soft” counter-play argument is entirely subjective. Who are you to decide what constitutes hard or soft counter play? The only measure of determining that is how good the player is at handling that counter play. So that’s one of your arguments voided straight off.

A hard counter leave you with no satisfying option unlike a soft counter. That’s not subjective.

Bryzy.2719:

Remember how you wrote about how there are options for “soft” counter-play to stealth like AoE and auto attack? Well guess what, they are both situational too. What if AoE attacks are on cool down?[…] What if you don’t have a viable auto attack for doing that? In fact, the only weapons that have a chance at doing that are the greatswords

First you are maybe gonna learn something but even dagger have a range close to a greatsword so every melee weapon is viable.

Edit: just verified quickly on the wiki thief Dagger auto attack have the same range than guardian Greatsword one. I’m too lazy to watch the other but i’m pretty sure that you will find the same thing for everyone

Then i don’t know any viable pvp build that don’t have recurring aoe OR a viable auto attack. If you do please link it.

Bryzy.2719:

What if the AoE attacks are placed nowhere near you (as they can’t see you)?

I edited the previous quote to take away this sentence and discuss about it here.
That’s pretty much the l2p issue you have to play this matchup again and again until you are used to the timing of a stealth-user.

Bryzy.2719:

You have also chosen to ignore all the logical rebukes people have given on here.

Which one? i may have forgot one since i’m not a robot In that case you are welcome to remind me!

Bryzy.2719:

You have presented no facts. All you have done is given anecdotal evidence laced with hyberbole and a wholly biased view towards stealth without being willing to look at the bigger picture. […]. Every other post you make just makes you look more stupid. You have no argumentative legs left to stand on.

I send you back to my previous post where i talk about “being arogant and denigrate people”.

coglin.1867:

So let me get this straight. In an action combat game, in which dodging is designs as the main form of damage mitigation. You exploit stealth to circumvent that mechanic. Then cry when other players use channeling a skill, to circumvent a mechanic that you are using to circumvent one of the most integral and main universal game mechanic. Maybe it is just me, but this complain seems to me. to fall deep on the side of unreasonable hypocrisy (to put it politely) to me.

The reasoning is nice but you’re wrong at it’s start:

Dodging is not designed as the main form of damage mitigation. Actually it’s more designed to avoid a threat that can be either damage or crowd control. If you want a damage mitigation dedicated system you have toughness and the protection boon wich are the main form of damage mitigation since they are 100% dedicated to it.

That said when i use stealth i want to buy time and to take the hand and decide when the fight is gonna continue. Note that I still can take damages and crowd control during the stealth so im not trying to circumvent the dodge mechanic.

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

Dodging do not fix the fact that the guy know where you are and that you can be nuked by one of his allies.

I repeat, this is COUNTER-PLAY. Christ, talk about a circular argument.

I send you back to my counter-play/hard-counter differences explanation.

Bryzy.2719:

So they know where you are? Welcome to what every other profession without stealth has to deal with 24/7!

Yes and i’m happy that you go in my way since every other profession without stealth do have (not all of what i’m gonna mention but some of it) aegis/protection/higher toughness/higher hp/better sustain/invulnerability/better-more crowd control/stability/better condition clearing/block/better-more stun break and i think i forgot some.

really if i’m with a bunker ele right in the middle of the fight i absolutely don’t care if the ennemy see me or not that’s 100% not my problem and pretty much every other profession can say the same (maybe not ranger ok)

Bryzy.2719:

Furthermore, skills that are being channeled against you can be nullified by simply moving beyond the angle of view of the attacking character, which cancels their channeling.

Yes but you can’t allways move beyond this point it depend on a lot of factor (is the caster far from you? do the terrain allow you to do this? do you have enough time to do this or is it better to choose another option? how many cooldowns do you have actually? are you even aware of where is the caster when you take your first damages?).

Actually on one hand you have someone that press one button and do damages and don’t have to bother about anything and on the other hand you have someone that have to mind about it

Bryzy.2719:

Your arguments have no basis other than “Urgh I’m sick of people being able to kill me! QQ why does the most powerful and abusable ability in the game have to have counter-play?! QQ”.

In almost every post you make you take 50% of your time being arogant and denigrate people. I’m sorry but actually you are the one looking more like a 12yo kid.
I spend my time proving my point of view with facts while you where searching what profession i was maining

Terrahero.9358:

Its been around since the start, those who want to see stealth buffed claim its a bug and should be fixed. Those who dont want to see stealth buffed claim its a feature.

This is not about what makes sense or what is logical. Afterall this is a videogame, people conjure magical stuff. Planting a banner into the ground counts as a blastfinisher, but a steel-packed keg of explosive powder does not. People become tornado’s from drinking a potion, and these tornado’s are vulnerable to physical damage.
Dont look for logical sense, its not an excuse because most of the game doesnt make sense.

So we end up with one way to view such mechanics, and thats balance. Currently Stealth is already incredibly powerful, and absolutely in no need of getting buffed. arenanet seems to agree with this stance as they are infact introducing more counter-mechanics against stealth. So removing existing ones makes no sense then.

I don’t want stealth to be buffed i consider it’s a fix. On the other hand i have no problem with the new revealing skills that are added to the other professions since i consider it as a real counter-play.

Sarrs.4831:

shinigamith.7120:

If you find it trivial you don’t have any problem with the fact that this could be fixed. This would not change a lot of things and would be a life aid

If it does not change a lot of things, why bother? It’s potentially a change with a lot of fallout which doesn’t have much benefit.

As i said it would be a life aid, and unlike you i don’t find this trivial even if it do not really touch a lot of things.

Bryzy.2719:

Also, you can avoid channeled casts, even in stealth, by doing something called dodging.

Dodging do not fix the fact that the guy know where you are and that you can be nuked by one of his allies.

Bryzy.2719:

Not to mention the fact that dodging will allow you to avoid most of the damage from things like Rapid Fire

Just. No.

One dodge allow you to avoid the damages of 1 or 2 shots if you timed it really well and you really don’t want to dodge twice…

Bryzy.2719:

Actually, you are clearly referencing thieves as I can see all your past forum posts and it’s obvious you main a thief.

So you basically base your answer on the fact that:

I mainly post on the thief thread so it’s obvious that i main thief (it’s clearly not obvious i play ele/guardian/war and i don’t post in their thread simply because those profession are in a very fine spot) so as a “main thief” i’m here to QQ because i want my main to be more op and so i’m wrong.

Actually you are clearly in the spot of the guy who have no arguments

Sarrs.4831:

While it doesn’t make sense, it’s relatively trivial. There are very few abilities that track and which deal enough damage to be meaningful.

If you find it trivial you don’t have any problem with the fact that this could be fixed. This would not change a lot of things and would be a life aid

Holland.9351:

It’s the only counter to stealth in the game. So, no, not unless more skills get the revealed debuff (like Sic ’em) or revealed is applied every time someone comes out of stealth.

Explain me what is spamming Aoe and #1 against a stealthed target for you? For me it’s the major stealth counter.

Wyrden.4713:

channeled skills r fine as they r, dont try to change that, they r very limited either.

“very limited”: no they are common. Every skill that have a casting time and target someone may reveal where the stealth user is as soon as you used it before your target go into stealth.

When you have an ai in your opponents the ai allways follow you (bird/dog/ranger pet in sPvp, mesmer clone, pve content that is inside WvW, other pve content that is in sPvP like svanir and so.)

McWolfy.5924:

Stealth in any game is unbalanced. It should be a 1 trick pony or maybe 2 if traited but this is nonsense

That would force dev to completely rework a class like thief and i don’t think they want to do this.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Mayama.1854:

You need to change exactly one thing to keep perma resetting thieves in check (and PU mesmers). Add dimishing return to stealth in WvW. Problem solved.

Incorrect. Change Black Powder (Pistol offhand #5) to a dark field. No more easy access to stealth, you have to start using all the utilities or dagger offhand to do it (which is really easily countered).

yeah it’s just gonna break D/P build since it’s based on stealth + blind to do something.

without smoke field => no stealth => no recurring backstab => the build is useless.

“But you have other utilities to do this”

One is a heal you don’t want to waste and that not everyone is running, there is blinding powder that not everyone run and have a cd and SR that is not meant to be used to backstab AT ALL.

It takes something like between 3 and 5 backstab to kill someone

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

You’re pointing a 2 years-old problem here But yeah i totally agree i’m tired of seeing ppl following me while i’m stealthed.

i.e you want there to be no counter play to your ability. Not gonna happen my friends, especially with all the QQ about how OP stealth is right now.

That’s not a counterplay that’s a design flaw. About the OP Stealth as allways => L2P my “friend”.

Muchacho.2390:

Maybe because those skills are heat (magic?) seeking und stealth makes you only invisible…

It makes as much sense as it doesnt…

There is no logic in gw2 i call it a bad design i’m not gonna search in the lore why it is not working as it should be.

Cufufalating.8479:

They should probably make you invulnerable in stealth too. I mean we all know spamming is bad, so why should people be able to spam AoE and #1 and kill you while you’re stealth? Just promoting more spam not skilled play like stealth.

You just didn’t understand that we are not complaining about #1 and Aoe…but about chanelling skills..as allways ppl talk and don’t know why

PS: That’s allways funny to see casual complaining about stealth

No, it’s counter-play. A thief’s primary strength is its ability to stealth. If there are no ways for other professions to be able to defend themselves against this, that would be a design flaw. Also, I never personally said stealth is OP; I referenced the general QQ about stealth on the forums. But yeah, way to add to the stereotype that all thieves are 12 year old kids spouting “L2P!!” at everyone who disagrees with a functionality of their profession. But whatever, you’ll be stuck with this whether you like it or not. So suck it.

First we are not discussing about thief but stealth don’t bring the debate here.

Then, something that break a mechanic like this is not a counter-play it’s a hard counter. The difference is simple: a counter-play can be avoided if you mind that your oponent is gonna counter you. Here you can’t avoid the fact that targetting chaneled spells follow you.

Finally, there are currently ways to defend yourself against stealth (and particullary thieves as it seems like you want to talk about it):

-Aoe spamming. the stealth user will still take them (and in the case of a thief, since the profession have no hp it’s very efficient)
-If you don’t have recurring aoe you still can spam #1

And that’s it you have your soft counter to stealth

“But hey i don’t know where the thief is”: L2P issue the thief is allmost everytime behind you

Yeah it takes time to mind where the stealth user can be and it’s the l2p issue and that’s why when someone say “stealth op” we reply “l2p”. I’m not the big pvp user i used to be the day the game has been released but i’m still able to guess at any time where a stealth user is gonna be when i’m fighting one because i’m simply used to it.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You’re looking at it from the wrong angle.

you shouldn’t stealth if someone is casting, especially if the -only- reason they did it is to get a general idea of where you’re headed.

Interresting post

In the case of a pvp group fight you can’t allways know or even be aware of who is attacking you. Since heavy stealth users can’t stand more than a few shot it’s totally inapropriate to have a mean to lock the user out of stealth.

If you are solo i agree with you it’s a l2p issue for the stealth user.

In the case of pve or pve+pvp fight anyway AI allways target you and allways know where you are => you don’t have the eternity to wait.

Now we can all agree that GW2 is not a solo game. The only moment that it’s a l2P issue for the stealth user is when you are in a solo fight that mean that in a vast majority of the game stealth user suffer of it.

Wyrden.4713:

i think its fine as it is tbh, stealth is probably the best defensive system in this game besides invulnerabilitys, but these r rly rly short duration with a rly long cd so ignore em

and the counterplay with channeled skills is fine, actually its not rly that much of a counterplay, for example gs1mesmer, or scepter air 1 on ele does dmg in stealth if casted before stealth, but it doesnt show the one using it where the thief is unless u got fire sigil, its invicible for the user, only the one in stealth knows that he is getting hit

ofc there are skills like unload as well, or the pistol phantasm, exactly these 2 r real neat counterplays to stealth, it shows exactly where the enemy is and where he is going

ops, forgot ranger lbow2 and war rifle (the channeled skill wich is similar to rangers rapid fire), these work as well

Let’s make it clear:

What’s the point of stealth?:

-Nobody can see you and we can only guess where you are
-You can’t be targeted

When you cast a targeting channeled spell before the stealth user go into stealth what happen?:

-Nobody can see you but everyone know exactly where you are
-You can’t be targeted but are still targeted by the hability

Why is it wrong?:

-It simply break stealth.

About counterplay: you make a counterplay when there is some mindgame. Here it’s not question of mindgame, AI allways follow you when you are in stealth simply because you are targeted by it that’s just a broken mechanic.

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

You’re pointing a 2 years-old problem here But yeah i totally agree i’m tired of seeing ppl following me while i’m stealthed.

i.e you want there to be no counter play to your ability. Not gonna happen my friends, especially with all the QQ about how OP stealth is right now.

That’s not a counterplay that’s a design flaw. About the OP Stealth as allways => L2P my “friend”.

Muchacho.2390:

Maybe because those skills are heat (magic?) seeking und stealth makes you only invisible…

It makes as much sense as it doesnt…

There is no logic in gw2 i call it a bad design i’m not gonna search in the lore why it is not working as it should be.

Cufufalating.8479:

They should probably make you invulnerable in stealth too. I mean we all know spamming is bad, so why should people be able to spam AoE and #1 and kill you while you’re stealth? Just promoting more spam not skilled play like stealth.

You just didn’t understand that we are not complaining about #1 and Aoe…but about chanelling skills..as allways ppl talk and don’t know why

PS: That’s allways funny to see casual complaining about stealth

You’re pointing a 2 years-old problem here But yeah i totally agree i’m tired of seeing ppl following me while i’m stealthed.

what?: Dagger Cleave
why?: They don’t have it yet but it already ruin the game

Did i just read in that post that ele is bad ? Oo

Yeah sure it’s just a mandatory profession in pve, have good roaming potential and is very effective in a blob, yes it’s one of the kittening best class in sPvp… Some “pro” team even choosed to replace the guardian in their team by a second ele…

scerevisiae.1972:

I just wish they’d gone for the long-duration, no-stealth-in-combat implementation of stealth you find in other MMOs.

That’s not a bad idea but you know what? If they do this thief is gonna get huge buffs.
At least a surviving buff and then a damage or crowd control buff.

But i’m not against this idea at least pve thief is gonna be good

well…you want to play sPvp? Guardian is one of the best.
you want to play high level pve? Guardian is mandatory.
you want to play wvw? it’s not the best roaming profession but it is just op in bus impact.

Yes you have high cooldowns skills but they are high cooldowns, high reward

what if i say that the rewar is:

-the thief lose time wich is important for him
-the thief lose initiative which is even more important for him

increasing the cost on spammed skill would just lead even more to the death of the profession in pve…

If i’m ok to say that thief need a rework it doesn’t deserve a nerf again

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

mrmadhaze.8706:

gotta love gw2 community, their anti thief crusades and the mods that let this crap going on.

i could say the same for the warrior haters you know

You are in a bad position to say that you allready have one of the best group/solo pve class, one huge capacity of roam/impact in bus in wvw, a good sPvP class, even one of the best class to farm blacklion keys….And all that with a low to medium skillcap depending on what gamemode you play…

DesertRose.2031:

shinigamith.7120:

Exactly what i said in my previous post. The problem is that it’s a pvp nerf that touch pve.

Being invulnerable against pretty much any non-boss mob is very OP. The PvE version of Thief Pistol #5 should had been nerfed long ago.

I’m ok with as long as you give us something in return. Thief don’t have very high damages, are the squishiest class of the game, are bad support in pve. BP here was op but since all the rest is bad that was balenced.

Mayama.1854:

shinigamith.7120:

-This nerf don’t make the build less spammy

-The only few builds that works on thieves are spammy builds. We searched for anything else but nobody found because there is nothing else.

Than make them less spammy, honestly you could reduce the dodge, stealth or blind spam by 30% and those builds would work exactly the same in PvP. The only difference would be that you could not spam those skills anymore. You would have to actually counterplay enemies and use those defense skills at the right moment. Those spam builds carry players to a higher ranking as they should be because the spam closes holes in their defense skills. For example I play alot engineer pvp and if I fight a good player that doesnt track enemy cooldowns its usually a thief. You wont find it on any other professions, even good thieves usually have no clue of all the cooldown timers because they automatically dodge, dodge, dodge or blind, blind, blind no matter what the enemy does. Another thing that hints at that problem is that you usually only find whine threads about condi necros and engis in the thief forum. The reason is because those builds can spam their damage even more than the thief can spam his defense so they eventually down in damage.

Well but if you remove this hability to spam the thief have nothing at all. This is the only thing that make it usefull. I’m ok with you that would be great if on my skillbar i can use all my skills and not choose 1 because it is simply the more initiative-efficient one. But that’s not the case.

Esplen.3940:

RyuDragnier.9476:

sirrealist.1360:

roamzero.9486:

The SB Choking Gas nerf is pretty ridiculous too, considering Mesmers can summon phantasms and clones without breaking stealth.

The thing that breaks stealth with SB choking gas is that it will now register a damaging hit from the player. They might make it do 1 damage, but it’s a hit if an enemy is within the AoE. A mesmer summoning does not hit, and the illusions doing damage is not the player doing damage. You’re confusing two very different things.

Okay, so all AoE fields should proc retaliation from your line of thinking, correct? Because that’s exactly what this move will be doing from now on.

Well, I mean, Caltrops counts as a damaging AoE field. It gets affected by Retal, reveals if the Thief is in stealth, and doesn’t stack with Caltrops on dodge (shhhhh, this isn’t relevant).

But on the bright side, it does count towards the healing off of Signet of Malice, allowing you to heal tons of small numbers like a Necromancer with points in Blood Magic… not that you need to know that considering I’m sure you’ve used Bladestorm to get a full heal in a pack of trash.

So yeah, Choking Gas might get hit by Retal and reveal you, but it can also heal you slightly in certain builds.

Correct me if i’m wrong but it already proc the signet of malice so you are offering a nerf that make this skill useless (since the only spec that uses it is a stealth spec) for nothing

woaaa a guardian complaining This day is great!

yeah that was 5/6/0/0/3 ^^’

didn’t slept so brain was dead!

5/6/0/0/3 with scholar rune, full zerk stuff, S/P for multi target, D/D or D/P for single target, depending on the target resistance to blind (typically you are gonna run D/D on bosses and D/P on lonely trash), Short bow to stack might.

Note that Short Bow is mandatory in high level fractal since melee = suicide most of time.

Edit: have to leave now but i can post the 5/6/0/0/3 build later if you want…Or you can search by yourself and decide what to pick…It’s as you want.

Mayama.1854:

Everything that makes a build less spammy is a good thing. Thief has way to many spam builds nowadays. Stealthspam, blindspam, dodgespam. Spammable stuff removes alot of skill from a build. For example the dodgespamming thief build isnt that strong because you can dodge every important enemy skill, its because you randomly dodge all that dangerous instant cast skills that you shouldnt be able to dodge at all.

-This nerf don’t make the build less spammy

-The only few builds that works on thieves are spammy builds. We searched for anything else but nobody found because there is nothing else.

BurrTheKing.8571:

This nerf was clearly intended to add counterplay when it comes to stomping.

Exactly what i said in my previous post. The problem is that it’s a pvp nerf that touch pve.

well. In sPvp thief is a good roamer and stealth is a good way to force your oponent to focus your allies while you are doing the backstab job. It’s not OP since it’s the “where this class shine” thing in sPvp.

In high level pve stealth is used to resurrect downed ppl with shadow refuge and sometime to skip. Useless in fight.

In wvw you have to use a stealth build simply because the other way to survive don’t really fit the wvw battle. The thief is still not immortal since as the warrior said he is behind you and made of paper… Last time i was running careless, shuffling my inventory (big mistake when you are roaming but i was tired), and a warrior came from behind bull rushed and one shoted me with his eviscerate and fire+air sigil. so i guess 4 second of stealth is a fair trade….

Do people realize that when you are inside your BP field you are not actually protected?

any melee class can attack you while standing outside the circle in pvp, when you are using this skill it’s either to apply blind 2 times, to safe stomp someone or to go into stealth…

The only thing that this BP nerf touch is the safe stomp part.

On the other hand it partially destroy one of the only uses a thief can have in pve because let’s be serious and honest thief is not a good pve class in general…

When you take a thief to clear a high lvl pve content like fractal 50 it’s mainly for BP. The other use of a thief are the Shadow refuge, the explosion combo finisher and the trait for increased damages with picked up weapons.
It’s not the best dps class, the sustain in pve is extremely limited (it’s even worse with the stacking meta), you have a very little supporting capacity…

Edit: some of you are gonna say “yeah but you have acces to perma blind and even with this nerf you are still gonna have access to it since mob don’t attack really often”
Yeah you’re right but this is not because BP is overpowered it’s because the AI is very bad and i think upgrading the AI should prevail above nerfing the capacity that can break it.

what make me sad is that this change are not for today..let’s say september or even october…and then we will have to wait 6 month again to have another changes.

And the patch on thieves is ridiculous they changed allmost nothing (just destroyed even more thief in pve) ….

To be serious i prefer they try something and break the class than not trying anything and just make some tweak.

I think we can sum up all of this by “Please our class need some love now…”

I hope that…when i go into stealth, people who targeted me with a chaneling skill stop following me with their attack… yeah i find this terrible..really…

Since there are lot of stupidity here i’m not even gonna try to argue more that’s not even usefull

Just:

>>And what AOE would a guard have

mmmmmh Auto attacks? you know the thing that destroy a thief because they have no armor or hp!

ReesesPBC.4603:

Then it sounds like you want to just take that away from a Guardian who uses his virtue, which is a high cooldown, when he wants to counter play an incoming stealthed attack

Guardian have a passive aegis…So even if i surprise him, if the fact of blocking a stealthed attack revealed me he would have a passive hard counter to 100% of the backstab build and i could do NOTHING for it…simply nothing.

ReesesPBC.4603:

you have no downside to it since you want to be able to spam attacks until its gone.

Yeah because it’s well known that everyone let you spam without using is AoE or Attaking the wind while turning around.

ReesesPBC.4603:

So if breaking stealth is too much then perhaps making BS or other stealthed attacks cost more initiative should be a decent anti-spam compromise?

I already have to position myself, to use initiative to be stealthed, by preference to be undetected by you before begining the fight and i have NO RIGHT TO MISTAKE.
And now i have to waste more initiative?

At this point i guess you don’t play thief and you don’t really know what you are saying by asking it.

phaeris.7604:

Like I said, raises the skill cap.

It just allow anyone to sit in his aoe and wait for the thief to appear…Or to spam the wind and see the thief appear. Just break thief stealth.

phaeris.7604:

Invisibility will always grant the user the biggest advantage, but you want it with no trade off.

Sure having medium armor, a low pool of hp, a very poor sustain for condition and the need to place yourself better than the other professions…Sure there is no trade off

phaeris.7604:

I still don’t see anyone explaining why stealth should remain on having your attack blocked/evaded etc.

And what can we do against for example a guardien that have his aegis at the start of the fight, and then can put another 2 aegis when you go into stealth? Lose initiative? yes initiative do regenerate but the rate is not really high compared to the loss…we can’t begin a fight having waisted 2 stealth to remove all the aegis a guardian have.

phaeris.7604:

Judging from the posts it’s already begun to filter out the bad players.

What you are saying is stupid and show a total misunderstanding of what you have to sacrifice to kill someone as a thief.

You are the bad player here.

The funny part is that you focused on the “removing DB” part and ignored every other agument like when i said removing db is not an end and we should give condition a compensation.

You can’t say D/D condition is ok. Not with only 1 skill to use in your hotbar. You can’t defend this!
I can understand why you are defending DB (here we have different point of view but we both have argument for us) but i can’t understand why you are defending the actual D/D condition build even in the name of diversity. There is no point in having a build with only 1 skill if it’s for diversity, just to say “hey we have D/D condition too! We have lot of shiny stuff to do!!!”

Anyway i think the point is made you didn’t convinced me and i didn’t convinced you but atleast our point of view have been exposed. It’s up to Anet now to change the things in a way that make everyone happy!

phaeris.7604:

If a thief hits/gets evaded/gets blocked stealth should break. It raises the skillcap without breaking the profession.

If I miss a skill it doesn’t get refreshed instantly until I land it.

That’ll stop the HS from black powder and hit whilst still staying in stealth nonsense.

Or make backstab use initiative.

This post is a nonsence…Totally…

If you want to balance stealth then remove the fact that targetting skills continue to follow the target even when she as gonne into stealth.

That’s really the only balance that is needed actually.

That’s a nice idea. Don’t really now if it’s balanced but that’s not important things can be tweaked after.

+ it is not normal that some thief-like mob in pve have access to rifle and we don’t (caudecus manor is a good example).

babazhook.6805:

P/d works in power builds. P/P works in power builds/ S/d works in power builds> D/dd works in power builds. S/p works in power builds. D/p works in power builds.

If by working you mean “i can kill something in pve” yeah every build work. Now come and try to kill a player with the same level with P/D power build we are gonna laugh…
Yes i prefer to talk about PvP simply because PvE is easy and don’t need anything particular to work if you don’t take it to a very high lvl (like soloing arah which is not possible with many builds anyway)

babazhook.6805:

When a person sees a thief coming at them with ANY weapon set, they should not be able to tell it condition/hybrid or power just because of that weaponset choice.
THAT is good game design.

Yeah and at the moment i can tell you what build play a thief only by looking his weapons. Actually we are not in a good design if i follow what you said.
Things have to change but to achieve a good design you have to break things before building

babazhook.6805:

Your solution is to further restrict a condition build to one or two sets > That is poor game design.

My solution is to change things and as i said before you have to break things in order to improve them..we have only 2 melee weapons and 2 ranged so yeah actually if you change something you restrict a build the poor game design is already here.

Dustfinger.9510:

letting players make the rules in spite of a-nets intentions is allowing players to recreate a game against what the creators want it to be.

They wanted D/D to be hybrid but didn’t improved it to make it attractive. You can say hybrid D/D was their intention but you can’t say that it’s their intention now.

Dustfinger.9510:

Changeing a particular part of a particular profession set that have nothing to do with gw2 identity isn’t changing the identity of the game but it is changing the identity of that particular weapon set. An identity that the devs specifically want to be a certain way that happens to not line up with what some players may want. That certain way seems to be that they want more options. Not less. Options to work in a power build and a hybrid build

If you want to preserve an identity you have to protect it and as i said make it attractive.

Yeah they designed D/D to be hybrid. On release day it was good as hybrid and over powered as a power build (since you could one shot and no match everything)

Did they changed the things to make it more attractive for hybrid and less for full power? No.

It took a tremendous time for them to nerf the full power build and when it was done the hybrid one, even if it was good wasn’t efficient enough.

They didn’t improved hybrid D/D they just nerfed power D/D.

I’m ok with Anet following their original design but only if they do something to make it attractive. If they don’t they have to break it.

Dustfinger.9510:

We have thing like traps and venom share in the game. Not many use them > They would rather take stealth and sources of evades and more power and damage.

But you can choose to use another utility skill if you don’t like them. You can’t choose to have another #3.

Game design should preserve diversity =>The actual one create a meta (meta is nothing more than the sign of problem in balance).
As they don’t try to protect diversity they could at least give some stability to the system and then improve it. Breaking DB is only a step it’s not a end they totally have to give us another finished set to play condition because actually D/D is not a complete one.

I invite you to watch the episode 15 of ready up on the guild wars 2 official twitch channel where they talk about reacting to what the player do with what they designed.

If you design something but absolutely nobody uses it (why nobody play hybrid D/D? => too weak) you can be very happy with what you have done but it’s not a good design.

Players react with what developpers design the players are not wrong if they use D/D with a power build because they find hybrid build too weak. They do it because it is simply better.

Finally you can’t compare the will to change D/D build with the one to have a hard trinity.

In one case you want to change a Global gameplay design that is a big part of gw2 identity.
In the other case you want to change a particular part of a particular profession set that have nothing to do with gw2 identity.

I’m gonna repeat myself but:

We are using initiative. So, every skill in our hotbar have to be usefull for every build that can use this set.

Actually this set is more oriented toward power build than condition build (you have only 1 condition skill…NO #1 is not a condition skill you have to make 3 attack before the poison is applied and anyway poison is not a killing condition it just reduces healing) so i think it’s normal for arena net to rework DB for a power build.

When 90% of the skills you use in an ENTIRE set is one skill there is a design problem and it should be fixed.

babazhook.6805:

Claim made: D/D was intended as a damage set. DB is out of place.

Claim made: D/D was intended as an hybrid set but players played it as a power set for now two years.

I think there is a reason and it’s not meta but the simple fact that there are obviously some problems with the condition D/D set.

babazhook.6805:

Fact: This is false. D/d was intended as a source of damage and of bleeds, very much a hybrid. The bleed was not an “oversight”.

Fact: The bleed was not but is an oversight in this set

babazhook.6805:

Evidence: D/b is the single most potent source of bleeds for the thief and inflicts AOE bleeds by design. In a single weapon attack wherein no weapon in off hand the skill twisting fangs has bleeds and is also AOE

Evidence: Anet should have reworked it to fit the players preferences and added another source of bleed in another set of weapon (Why not in Pistol/Pistol ? the set actually have a poor #3)

RyuDragnier.9476:

Except that basically destroys any and all uses of Signet of Malice outside of Shortbow and P/P (which is a power set), making it worthless. I use D/D on my apothecary build for multiple reasons.

False: Sword/pistol use it, i personally use it a lot in pve it’s very powerfull with cluster bomb or even with D/D Auto.

babazhook.6805:

If that the case the designers would not have put bleeds on DB. They would not have put the most powerful single source of bleeds on DB. It was not an “oversight”. It was intended to be a source of bleeds for which it works very well.

There is what they designed and what the player found. Their main mistake is to not having reworked the thing at the very beginning.

borgs.6103:

I really wish they do this. This is really good. Have you proposed this in the balance forums?

No it just came out when i made the post.

babazhook.6805:

The only time I could remotely support such a notion is if an entirely new MELEE weapon introduced that focused on condition damage.

100% with it. Everyone would be happy end of the story… They could rework P/P (useless) too…

Add a daze and everyone is gonna cry…

babazhook.6805:

You are not forced to use it but please to not advance this notion that it “useless”

Again i remember you:

Because thieves skill are worth initiative they have to be usefull for EVERYONE in EVERY build. I’m ok to have a not so usefull skill for my build in my hotbar if it’s worth a cooldown. I WANT a usefull skill for my build in my hotbar if it’s worth initiative.

They have to change DB…well it’s easy: you increase a little bit the dodge remove the bleed take the cripple from the #4 and you have a good utility skill. Then you can rework #4 so it cost 1 more initiative can’t bounce more than one time on each target but dispell one buff (only an exemple of what you can do).

Yes…with this solution no more bleed for D/D but you now have 5 skills in your hotbar and not 3

The main strategy used in fractal (i talk here about high level fractal) is bursting the ennemy down as fast as possible.

You can try a D/D build but it’s gonna be…well… less than average. Or totally useless in some situation like when you fight dredge fractal last boss or in the underwater fractal. (plus you can be sure ppl are not gonna enjoy it…)

babazhook.6805:

>>But for pvp well optimisation is important and in that case if i run a full power build, having one skill i have no use for on my bar is annoying.

Yet, what would be more annoying , is being forced to use JUST the p/d (and to lessor extent SB) set if one wants a condition based thief which is what those requesting changes to DB are in fact advocating.

If you re-read the end of my post i ask for a thief rework that’s not just simply removing death blossom but making it attractive to everyone or making the entire D/D set more specialized. Anyway the D/D set is not really meta in pvp atm.

The problem of death blossom is that initiative have a big drawback: with this system every skill have to be usefull…If we had a cooldown based class, we could use this skill as a situational dodge or as a stopgap in our cycle

Here we can’t do this simply because using this skill in a power based build mean losing initiative

As someone stated previously in the post we can talk about this skill both in pve and in pvp:

For pve i don’t mind if i have one skill that is not usefull in the setup i use. In fact it’s a great condition pve skill and the 1/2/5 skills are usefull enough to do everything i want when i run with a power build

But for pvp well optimisation is important and in that case if i run a full power build, having one skill i have no use for on my bar is annoying.

I Feel like thief need a rework some mechanics are not really fine like this skill having NOTHING to do in a pvp power build.