Guild Wars 2

I don’t see any proof for what you claim. Once again – how is the paragon explicitly tied to anger? And how is adrenaline powered by flame? I’d rather say it’s the other way round, and that flames can be powered by adrenaline/anger, if a person (the berserker warrior) specializes into utilizing magic in that way – or purely by adrenaline in case of the paragon, though I’d really say that’s mechanics rather than lore, since paragon fire, like I said, has a holy theme tied to the gods (of course in case of humans that connection could be at least nominally made for berserkers as well, which is btw. exactly what I do in RP with my priest of Balthazar, who will be a berserker in HoT, but the paragon was explicitly themed towards this).

Kalavier.1097:

[…]the healing magic of the priests/priestesses of dwayna (who I see as all being monks)[…]

This is wrong, just a sidenote. While I agree that most likely many of them are monks/unarmored guardians, in GW2 we see elementalist priests of Dwayna on several occasions, using water and air magic.

Paragon flames were themed towards holy fire. They were touched by the gods, meant to serve them as emissaries of sorts. Also, fire was more of a secondary thing with paragons, while guardians and berserkers have access to tons of it. The berserker taps into primal bloodlust to channel flames of rage. Even if they both use adrenaline, that’s hardly the same thing. Plus, like you said, guardians gain access to fire via light manipulation. So while the paragon has something in common with the berserker as well as with the guardian, the three of them can’t really be compared based on a single defining trait. Certainly not anger, at least. I don’t deny that there is some crossover, they can’t be put in one category.

Adrenaline doesn’t necessarily include the anger theme which berserkers revolve around. While paragons, smiting monks and guardians can certainly be angry while doing what they do, their true powers, as far as we can tell, come from belief. Berserkers use anger as their power resource.

Also:

While the guardian uses magical flames for protection and purging, berserkers use the torch as a reckless weapon of destruction

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/meet-the-berserker-warriors-elite-specialization/

Since you were talking of anger and flame – Guardian flames and and Berserker flames don’t seem to be related.

Daniel Handler.4816:

How would they train this ability?

That’s a question you could ask about pretty much any kind of magical ability, since we know little about that overall.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The instinctual magic you refer to seems to be a primal force residing on flame and anger. We see this in paragons, guardians and warriors/berserker.

I don’t see how you connect these three together. The Berserker warrior is the only one of the above to rely on anger for their powers.

It should perhaps be noted that while physical fighters like warriors can most likely imbue their attacks and shouts with intuitive magic, that doesn’t mean your average soldier out there can do it (or at least doesn’t have the talent/knowledge to tap into it by himself – we know that almost anybody can learn to use magic).

Erukk.1408:

A peaceful future might be the goal, but a truly peaceful future is also an unobtainable goal at the end of the day, because there is always going to be conflict in same way, shape, or form. I’m not sure if Balthazar would consider them humans still or not, but as long as they are winning all the wars, conflicts, or battles they are in, I doubt he would care what reasoning they are using to justice the violence.

Plus, they subscribe to Glint’s version of “securing” a peaceful future. While their end goal might be peace, love, harmony, friendship is magic, and all that jazz, Glint wasn’t above manipulation and killing/removing undesirables. She seemed, to me anyway, very much of the “For the Greater Good” mentality, and god forbid you or your whole race got in her way or kittened her off.

Balthazar cares a good deal about etiquette and is even willing to eradicate those who break with it. While of course he’d see that the supposedly peaceful outcome would eventually only lead to new conflict, that doesn’t mean he would agree with the goal. Rivalry between his warlike virtues and, for example, the peaceful ones of Melandru has been shown in lore since GW1 Wintersday. But I agree that he likely wouldn’t care enough to interfere directly.

Anyway, that’s not part of this discussion, so back to topic.

Erukk.1408:

Glint really only wanted the Elder Dragons to no longer be a threat. Even after their eventual defeat, I’m sure Balthazar would be happy as long as there is some sort of conflict in which the humans can prove their supremacy in.

If that were the case, yes. But the article states that a peaceful future is the goal.

It appears I stand corrected by Konig.

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding the confusion between the Forgotten serving Glint or the gods: I’m reminded of Ember’s line in Ghosts of Ascalon when asked what she would do if the interests of the Vigil and the Ash Legion clashed: “Fortunately, that has not happened”. There’s no conflict because from what we know, Glint and the gods were at least allied with compatible goals, so there is no conflict in the Forgotten serving both. In GW1 lore, Glint claimed to be the caretaker of Tyria on behalf of the gods – while this may be one of the things Glint lied about, it might even be that it’s simply a matter of Glint having been absorbed into the hierarchy that leads up to the gods, and asking whether the Forgotten are serving Glint or the gods is a bit like asking whether a British soldier in WW2 was serving General Montgomery or Churchill.

Well, I didn’t say that they didn’t serve both the gods and Glint. I was just annoyed that the gods weren’t mentioned at all. It’s true what Konig says, that they had already distanced themselves from the world, but at the time the Exalted were created, Glint was still serving the agenda of the six (or five, rather) gods along with the Forgotten.

On the other hand, I don’t think that Balthazar would approve of Glint’s goal of a peaceful future.

When it came to the Forgotten being in the jungle: We had hints back in GW1 that the Forgotten had once had a presence in the jungle, but had withdrawn. 300 years before GW2 (meaning 50 years before GW1) does seem to have them being in the jungle more recently than GW1 implied – but it was possible that they kept themselves hidden and didn’t reveal themselves to any humans that they hadn’t already chosen to become Exalted. It’s also worth remembering that during this time, Orr was still a functioning nation, and the nation most devout to the gods as well as being reasonably close to Forgotten holdings – it’s possible that the Forgotten primarily recruited from Orr and some Orrians knew this was happening, but it was kept secret from the other nations (which, at the time, were busy fighting the Guild Wars).

I like this theory very much. However, I see one big weakness within it – if we assume that the Orrians knew about the Exalted ‘project’, what would have stopped Zhaitan from using that knowledge extracted from Risen Orrians and sending his dragon champions after the sleeping Exalted, beings of pure magic?

Overall, the idea of creating beings of pure magic to fight Elder Dragons who feats upon magic seems a bit odd to me (and others who noted on this before).

lordkrall.7241:

So the knowledge, that existed in people that were PRESENT during the whole deal, was lost?

Clearly Glint at the very least had this knowledge.

Of course she had the knowledge. But the reason why she kept it a secret is not at all relevant to this discussion, or is it? I realize you’re trying to tell me that if this could be kept from becoming known, the same could be true for the creation of the Exalted. However, I find the assumption to be quite cheesy considering that Glint appears to have explicitly sent the Forgotten in order to look for volunteers. You don’t do that in secret.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Uh… you need to replay Prophecies.

No, I don’t. Perhaps you mistake me for thinking they weren’t servants of Glint, which I don’t. It just annoys me that the Exalted blogpost ties them entirely to Glint and doesn’t mention the gods as their actual masters at all.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I believe that Agroman refers to the dialogue of this quest. Though it doesn’t really state what he’s claiming.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Keep in mind that two groups of humans attempted to Ascend after Turai and before our PCs in GW1.

And we don’t know who they were.

It’s hinted that they were Ascalonians and the Seekers, but who are the Seekers? We still don’t know.

I forgot about these groups, admittedly. But that doesn’t change the point that knowledge about the continued existence of the forgotten was pretty much lost to humanity 300 years ago and that collides with the idea of Glint sending the Forgotten on a mission to find human volunteers (except if we continue to assume that she restricted them to a specific splinter group of humans within the Crystal Desert at some point, and as I said, it doesn’t sound like that was the specific idea behind it).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Most likely happened after Prophecies’ events.

Anet likes to round things, so them rounding to “300 years” instead of saying “256 years” is understandable. Not desired, can be confusing to those who don’t remember their love of rounding, but understandable.

That’s something I didn’t consider, honestly. All this happening after Prophecies would indeed make the whole thing a bit more plausible.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

10,000 BE according to the Priory’s best guesses. But evidence actually points to it being circa 2,000 BE.

Source? Certainly this has been brought up before, but I haven’t read it yet.

lordkrall.7241:

But why would they? And why would that be all okay that they didn’t mention those massive threats, but there seems to be the worst thing ever that they didn’t mention these secret magical Warriors?

That isn’t the point here, is it? The point is that knowledge about it was lost. Which is a fact.

Plagiarised.2865:

Largely. There’s a difference between largely uninhabited and completely uninhabited. How many is ‘largely’ 90% 95% 99%? How many humans is 1%?

EDIT: Also, you say it is a lore mess, then follow it with as far as we know. Isn’t it logical that this information would be beyond the scope of your as far as we know?

The wording doesn’t sound like it was intended to be restricted to some desert people minority we never heard a word about before, which is why I assume that they didn’t waste a thought about the topic. And since it wouldn’t be the first time something is as sloppily added to previous lore as this, there is every right to be sceptical.

Perhaps because it was, as far as we know, largely uninhabited by humans at that point.

@lordkrall:
You seemingly don’t realize that the previous dragon rise left Tyria in ruins and eradicated most life on the planet. The few races that survived this and kept the knowledge about it also kept it a secret. There isn’t even the slightest similarily in this.

lordkrall.7241:

So a race of hidden lizard-men with very little actual influence over the world being forgotten is used as an argument that massive EXTREMELY strong and dangerous mountain-range sized Dragons (which multiple creatures we actually talk with have faced) were not talked about?

Feels like people have very different standards for different things here.

Different standards indeed, if you really compare events that lore-wise are supposed to have happened just 50 years prior to GW:Prophecies to something that happened tens of thousands of years ago, before most of the dominant races of present day even lived upon Tyria and that left the planet pretty much wasted.

Concerning the rest – I’m not saying that it’s impossible that humans other than Turia Ossa and his followers came across the Forgotten before Prophecies. But the article states that the Forgotten explicitly searched for volunteers among the humans and that only the ‘most worthy’ were chosen. I don’t know what that sounds like to you, but to me it doesn’t sound like it’s supposed to be restricted to some unimportant, completely random group of humans that at some point met the Forgotten while travelling through the desert.

Turai Ossa wasn’t even aware of what the Forgotten were when he and his followers stumbled across them.

The Forgotten are called the Forgotten for a reason. They had been largely forgotten and turned into a myth of ancient times. It’s in the Prophecies manual. Sadly, I only have it in German so I cannot quote it adequately.

Edit: The last time that the dragons rose was over 10.000 years ago and deliberately kept a secret. That’s no comparison.

Under Glint’s instructions, roughly 300 years ago the Forgotten sought out human volunteers who shared their reverence for Glint’s dream of securing a peaceful future. After a rigorous set of tests and trials, the most worthy of these volunteers underwent a ritual that converted their bodies into pure magical energy which were then encased in golden metal armor. From this point forward, they were known as the Exalted.

What the kitten, ArenaNet. I really don’t see any good explanation for this. 300 years ago, the Forgotten had become a myth to most if not all of humanity. I wasn’t until the events of Prophecies that human civilization ran into them again (not counting Turai Ossa a few centuries before). So how is it that we never heard a word about this before? Sounds like another lore mess to me.

Edit: I’m also super annoyed by the fact that the Forgotten are now continuously presented as servants of Glint, where they were primarliy servants of the Six.

I read Edge of Destiny pre-release, so it’s been a while, admittedly, since I found that book to be absolutely horrible. The “not noticing” part was just an unconnected idea that came to my mind, hasn’t got much to do with my actual point, but I do remember that Kralkatorrik noticed Snaff – however that was a different kind of mind control. Nevermind.

Times change, yes, but I don’t see the point of regressing in something as potent and powerful as mesmer magic, given that since GW2, or at least since the Living Story, Anet is very keen on presenting Tyria as a very.. let’s say more sophisticated and open-minded world concerning international matters (which I find to be quite annoying, but that’s a different story). But I don’t recall the GW1 beginner dialogues on mesmerism either, so that might be true.

Well, the nobility part is heavy speculation, but plausible.

Still, I don’t see the need for restriction for something that was commonly used by mesmers beforehand if we assume they did it out of fear to be in the same spot as necros, who are in that spot because of the negative things associated with undead (Khilbron, Zhaitan, Joko, etc). But as Konig said, that’s propably due to Angel McCoy messing up lore.

I wouldn’t necessarily put “primal” on a level with “less intelligent”. Perhaps “less civilized”, yes, but that isn’t the point.
Berserkers (by which I explicitly only mean the Warrior specialization) for example also rely on primal anger to gain power, but that doesn’t necessarily make them less intelligent than other fighters.
The mind of an Elder Dragon is so large and so heavily focussed on destroying/assimilating/devouring/etc that I can’t really see them wasting any thoughts about the subtleties that concern human beings, which are very much what a mesmer has to deal with in order to manipulate their enemies. I believe with all that missing, it shouldn’t have been such a big deal for Anise and Jennah to merely “touch” the mind of Kralkatorrik, who had just awakened and was pretty much on rampage. Perhaps an Elder Dragon’s mind is even so large that they don’t even notice something as small as a human mind. Manipulating anything within and even staying connected with it after Kralky has noticed what’s going on is a different story.

Edit: The question raised by the idea that mesmers perhaps banned those spells out of fear is – why now, if it was deemed acceptable during GW1?

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Mesmer magic, as has been debated above, is usually about illusions, not mind control- that is, changing the input, not the output. I know it sounds like semantics, but it’s an important distinction, since illusions allow for the possibility of the victim catching on to what’s happening and then refusing to act accordingly.

Thank you – this sums up really well what I was trying to say the entire time.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I wouldn’t compare them either.

But I think a many-thousands-year-old intelligent mind that has read the memories of everything it created (said ‘everything’ rising in the millions) would be superior, not inferior, to the human mind.

I didn’t call the mind of an Elder Dragon inferior to that of a human or unintelligent, but more primal and simply different, sentient in a more alien way.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The point was more that the common mesmer of GW1 and the common mesmer of GW2 utilize different skills.

I know. But comparing the two makes it kind of clear that there wouldn’t be any sense to assume that mesmers just put aside what they commonly used in GW1, because it would be wasting a massive advantage. This is why I found the tank example a bit lacking, because it’s fair to assume that modern day tanks are better at pretty much everything.

@dsslive: Agreed. That, however, would also lay close at hand that she could indeed be capable of warping time in a situation such as the one during Party Politics. Which was my original point.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sentience is sentience regardless of race or species.

Still, the human mind can hardly be compared to that of an Elder Dragon. I would argue that reaching into something as large and raw as a dragon’s mind is easier than getting into that of a human, but that it’s much more dangerous for the mesmer and harder to control anything within it due to its vast primal nature.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So does Kralkatorrik and by any indication, the other Elder Dragons.

Dragon champions are independent in their personality and actions, by in large. There is no indication that Elder Dragons “distribute” their mind or thinking amongst their champions.

Perhaps distribute was the wrong word for it. I always had the impression that the Elder Dragons let, or at least that Zhaitan lets his champions do most of the thinking and commanding for him, while he himself is largely the corruption/desire that fuels the champions.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Complexity or basicness is irrelevant. If it can be done, it can be done. We know Anise is one of the two most prominent mesmers in Tyria – Jennah being the other. Few – if any – exceed their abilities. If it can be done, they’d be able to do it no doubt.

You were talking of ‘proper training’, so I picked that up. That aside, I have no doubts Anise and Jennah are propably the most powerful mesmers alive and can pretty much do everything that is possible with that form of magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Isn’t that what you very much said before, however? That mesmers do not mess with people’s minds. This was why you think Anise didn’t do such – because, to quote, “It’s never really stated that mesmers can get directly into people’s head.”

Since just about every GW1 mesmer did that, I’m doubtful that its impossible, nor do I believe that it’s challenging.

As I said, I’m having difficulties to express what my point is while writing this in English. My native language is German. I absolutely don’t want to say that mesmers cannot mess with people’s head. There has been some misunderstanding in that. My point is that I highly doubt they can just take over another guys thoughts and do with them whatever they want, but that they depend a lot on trickery, hexes and illusions to pull the strings. I’m basically saying that mesmers don’t just do hostile takeover, because if they could do that all the time, there wouldn’t be any need to get in a fight. And I figured that in order to intervene as drastically as Anise does in Party Politics, a direct takeover would at least be partially necessary.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Because it’s too much work, requires too much coordination, and requires being taught in techniques which aren’t commonplace in the modern era (think like comparing a tank operator of WWII’s era to a modern tank operator – their skill sets will be rather different, don’t you think?).

I find the comparison a bit lacking, because modern tanks are pretty much better at everything when comparing them to WWII ones. A GW2 mesmer has a lot more raw power and a lot more reality altering than a GW1 mesmer, but the latter can interrupt spells in the fraction of a second and put hexes on other people’s minds which I believe would win in a direct fight. But actually, I believe mesmers still use interrupting spells and hexes, they just don’t fit well into GW2’s combat system.

Maybe you’re right and direct brain control is possible for a very skilled mesmer (and by ‘direct brain control’, once again, I don’t mean messing with minds via hexes, illusions, etc, I mean direct takeover). Still, I’d argue that it is extremly complex and advanced to do it. So I agree with the ‘too much work/coordination’ part. Which leads me to…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But let’s presume that a mesmer can mind control 5 other people. That means there’d have to be 1 mesmer for every 5 non-mesmers. If some aren’t controlled, then they’ll likely notice – over time – that mesmers are mind controlling others. And if that happens, revolt happens. Prejudice against mesmers that aren’t mind controlling, mass mayhem, genocide – or professioncide rather – occurs.

Once again, I totally agree. However, if mesmers could turn people on a regular basis, they could simply crush a revolt before it even started. This is why I doubt that they simply get into other people’s heads by such direct means.

However, I must admit that under the assumption that direct mind warping is difficult to do and something for more advanced mesmers, it is plausible that Anise did use something like this in Party Politics, given that she appeared to be very absent whenever Canach tried to talk to her. Still, I believe some time warping was involved as well.

I didn’t say that the dragons aren’t sentient at all, but that they aren’t sentient in the way humans are. They have a much more primal consciousness, I’d argue. I’d even say that is also the case with Mordremoth, in a way, eventhough he appears to do more precise thinking by himself instead of distrbuting it among his champions, being the dragon of mind.

I disagree concerning Macha. Perhaps it already took her proper training to implant communication? Later in the book, it is implied that the Krytan navy uses mesmers to communicate across ships in just the same way as Macha does, only over a greater distance. Prince Edair surrounded himself with an elite force, so I believe it is fair to assume that telepathic communication isn’t a basic spell.

Concerning the grizwhirl storyline, I have to admit that I also didn’t play it in a long time, so won’t say much. But as I said, I don’t want to deny a Mesmer can brainwash people. I simply think it isn’t an easy thing to do and it doesn’t come via directly scripting thoughts, at least in most cases. Elsewise, I couldn’t think of any reason why Tyria wouldn’t be completely controlled by mesmers. :P

I doubt the mind of Kralkatorrik can be compared to that of a human. The Elder Dragons aren’t sentient in the way humans are (except perhaps Mordremoth). More like forces of nature. Perhaps it isn’t even as complex for a mesmer to touch a mind as large as that of an Elder Dragon.

Edit: I don’t see where Macha’s telepathy necessarily involes mind reading. I don’t recall any point in the book where it was clear that she knew what Coby was thinking. The grizwhirl story I’d argue uses hypnotic spells rather than direct mind access. So I really don’t say that it is impossible to make someone a brainwashed puppet, but rather that it’s difficult and you don’t achieve it by directly scripting a person’s thoughts.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“Getting into people’s head” is exactly what the majority of the GW1 mesmer plethora of skills are about.

Mesmers, in general, can do two things: First, they can manipulate reality via ether. Second, they can directly alter people’s minds.

When the mesmer was released, there was an argument not unlike the current druid one where someone argued mesmers in GW2 weren’t true mesmers because they’re manipulating reality and that’s not what mesmers in GW1 did. While mostly true (there was some manipulation of reality in GW1), a dev came in to state that mesmers were always capable of doing both (of course, despite this the person continued arguing his point…).

It was also said in an interview with Angel that mesmers don’t like it being known that they can manipulate an individual’s perception of reality (“get directly into their mind”) to avoid fear propagating about the mesmer. Given GW1, either this is a recent thing thus explaining the overall movement towards reality manipulation over mind manipulation, or yet another thing Angel got wrong in interviews.

I don’t doubt that or disagree with it. Perhaps I’m having some difficulty explaining what my point is, English is not my native language.

Of course the mesmer is largely about messing with other people’s minds. What I am trying to say is that they do not directly control people’s thoughts but rather ‘guide’ them in a certain direction using spells. Theit victims don’t just become brainwashed puppets. My point is that they can influence minds, but propably not flat out read them. Which I believe would be necessary in order to achieve something as extreme as what Anise did in Party Politics without involving some time warping.

Temihal.8651:

Where did I say that Kormir used Abaddon power…

I messed that up, sorry. Nevermind.

Temihal.8651:

Anyway, I can see Dwayna not liking Shiro that much but it’s not like anyone is bringing him back to life. Revenants are only using him (and other legends), why should the gods even care?

I could understand the conflict if the gods where some kind of good and pure beings , but they’re definitely not.

I don’t see how this has got anything to do with the gods actually being good or bad. Abaddon was their enemy, and they already put a lot of energy in imprisoning him and his powers in the past.
It is, imho, quite naive to think they wouldn’t object because they can just accept that Revenants use Mallyx and Shiro as mere tools. We know that the gods, or at least some of them, care a good deal about etiquette. Balthazar was willing to wipe out an entire village just because he was angry about a breach of etiquette, and Grenth is known to be a patron of strict ethics.
And even if the gods really didn’t give a kitten , what would that change? Certainly nothing concerning the current state of affairs, because the gods remain silent. The human race clings very tightly to what’s left of their ancient traditions, and especially priests always have their own ways of trying to convince people about what is good and what is bad. I’m quite certain that a great number of people wouldn’t think as sophisticated about the topic, since Shiro and Mallyx are clearly villainous figures in human history. We as players have a very modern approach to these things, but not all inhabitants of Tyria are as open to everything as, say, the citizens of Lion’s Arch. There are NPCs in Divinity’s Reach that think the Elder Dragons don’t exist, and there’s lots of racism – people complaining about the Charr, for example. To people such as these, simply put, the gods are good guys – that’s what revering a god is pretty much about in most cases – and Abaddon’s magic is evil. I can absolutely see cultural biases against strange new magic that involes channeling evil legends of the past.

There wouldn’t be any point in presenting the Revenant as a darker, more anti-hero profession if we assume that they will be broadly accepted by anyone.

@Konig:
Again, you make a lot of good points, and under the assumption that the legends don’t need to be dead/gone to invoke their powers, I would agree.
However, we don’t know if that is the case or not. Knowing whether Jalis is dead or still out there would help to bring some light into this. Honestly, I still think he’s gone and that Revenants only invoke legends that have passed away. There was an article where it’s stated that Jalis is “overjoyed to be back in action”. Which is a heavy implication to me, because I can’t really see King Jalis backing down from fighting the destroyers after he basically turned his entire race into stone warriors with an eternal lifespan whose utmost goal is to fight Primordus.

Mesmers primarily use illusions and, in GW1, curses that affect other people’s perception. They (or at least some) are of course able to enter the mind of other beings, but controlling it directly is a different thing, and that is something we have no explicit lore about.

Edit: Admittedly, Snaff used direct mind control on Kralkatorrik, but that was only possible because Eir shot the dragon with special crystal-tipped arrows that allowed Snaff access to its mind. So that’s a different thing and hasn’t got anything to do with mesmerism.

Kormir wasn’t “using the bad guy powers”. Abaddons powers weren’t bad or evil to begin with. He made them that way and Kormir took the raw power and cleansed it. So that’s no argument for the gods being okay with the Revenant channelling Mallyx or Shiro. Especially Shiro, btw., who stole magic gifted by Dwayna to wreak havoc in Cantha.

Honestly, I find the mind bending thing more unlikely than time warping. It’s never really stated that mesmers can get directly into people’s head. But, any way you put it, the spell is ridiculously powerful.

Okay, I got that Mallyx quote wrong, then. Really didn’t have the exact wording in mind. Nevertheless, I believe that over time, it is possible that a Revenant is being influenced by the legends he channels. Everybody is somehow influenced and even, to a certain point, defined by what he regularly does. The whole profession is described as being more sinister and more “whatever it takes to succed” and honestly I’d be surprised if that didn’t come at a price of some sort.

Jalis – yes, he could still be alive as far as we know, but I believe it can be said that this is highly unlikely. It is explicitly stated that Revenants channel “legends of the past”, and that usually means something that is truly gone.

And concerning the gods – well, fair point with Abaddon, but that doesn’t count for all the other gods. And honestly, I don’t think that ArenaNet would go as far as to let a Revenant channel the direct powers of a god, which should be beyond what a mortal magic user could control (Kormir could only do it because the five other gods gave her a special blessing to achieve it). They chose Mallyx for a reason, I believe.

Calcifire.1864:

or perhaps due to the “blank slate” of revenants, ALL the gods would be willing to grant patronage?

That would reduce the very meaning of ‘patronage’ to absurdity.

Calcifire.1864:

now I wonder: can a revenant channel a god?

The Revenant channels legends of the past. Dead people. The gods are neither, as far as we know.

You do receive conditions, it just cleanses two off of you once you activate it. Also, that’s Flames of War, not the Zerker stance. We’re getting too deep into mere mechanics here, imho – but any way you put it, the Berserker clearly involves several magical side effects/enhancements to their attacks. You shoot frikkin fireballs while going Berserk with a sword. That’s more than just physical feats.

I don’t see how setting yourself ablaze without taking any damage or slamming a torch into the ground and creating a shockwave of fire that breaks the ground open couldn’t be magic.

Plus:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-berserker-on-points-of-interest-a-summary/

“Reapers use ice-based attacks to inflict deathly chill on their enemies, while berserkers channel their fiery rage.”

The Berserker is clearly using magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t think the specialization lines can be taken literally for what’s happening to the revenant, so much as what the revenant is doing.

The corruption line is a heavy-condition focused line that focuses on benefitting Mallyx’s powers, which is about corrupting boons into conditions. Taking positive effects of others and making them negative; taking negative effects of the self and making them positive.

Similar to how Devastation isn’t causing harm to the revenant’s body, but is about the revenant causing harm – or devastation – to opponents.

Fair point. However, regarding that Mallyx tries to tempt the Revenant with ‘ultimate power’ (at least I think that’s what he says, don’t recall it exactly atm) and that the Legendary Demon skills put conditions on the Revenant that can damage him if he doesn’t manage them properly, I tend to believe that the risk of being corrupted by Mallyx is quite real. Yes, that’s all jut mechanics, but thematically it appears that way to me.

Yes, the Revenant channels these powers as useful tools. However, it is implied that there is a certain amount of corruption included (hence the trait line name).

And while that does not necessarily make the Revenant himself a heretic to the Six if they use Shiro or Mallyx, I do think that most faithful humans would disapprove of using such powers and likely proclaim that as being blasphemous.

In addition to what vanderwolf says.. Actually, I don’t think any of the human gods or their priests would give their blessing to a Revenant. I would even go as far as to call the Revenant profession heretical in human culture.

Why? They channel the powers of Shiro und Mallyx – both powerful servants of Abaddons evil during their lifetime, and both enemies of humanity (especially Shiro).

I don’t see the Revenant fitting into the faith of the Six at all. They are a dark anti-hero profession with a ‘whatever it takes’ attitude. That doesn’t work well with the virtues of the gods, not even Grenth and Balthazar.

I could even figure Revenants being equally hated and mistrused as the Sylvari (with HoT release and all the dragon minion knowledge) among humans.

vanderwolf.7084:

and I bet she’ll be the first lore based chronomancer.

Just a sidenote – that would already be Anise, considering what she does in this quest (whenever the PC fails at something):
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Party_Politics

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Master_of_Travel

The NPC seems to be gone since August 27. Is this intentional?

I know that going back to the starter area wasn’t of much use, but I liked the map and had some RP going on there from time to time. Any chance the Master of Travel is coming back?

I do not recall saying that it’s bad to roleplay something unique. However in my experience, unique things rarely come to pass by doing what is most unlikely and shocking for people (by which I mean RP characters). In fact, people have been talking about this topic a long time.

But that’s not the point of this thread. I do agree with what draxynnic said, by the way.

It’s complete nonsense to say that only Ascalonian descendants hold a grudge towards or are suspicious of the Charr. There are several examples of human racism/mistrust towards the Charr in Divinity’s Reach, and even Minister Caudecus is said to be veteran of the war against them.
Kryta has been supporting Ebonhawke for decades, or else the city would have fallen a long time ago. Many humans of all sorts detest the Charr.

Ehecatl.9172:

Why is sylvariXhuman different? If anything sylvari are MORE biologically and psychologically different to humans than charr are. Humans and charr are separate species but are in the same class of life. Sylvari are in an entirely different KINGDOM of life.

The Pale Tree modeled the entire sylvari race after a human example. That’s why it’s different. Malyck is the only sylvari that doesn’t quite fit in.

Also – I read a lot about RP being more interesting when not following the norm. While that is true to an extent, stereotypes are important. If everybody’s a special snowflake, the world we are playing in is getting less and less important.

From a roleplaying point of view, I think this is very questionable. Think of the biological barriers between humans an Charr. It’s highly unlikely that either side would find the other attractive. The idea might be exciting as long as you’re a real life person sitting behind a computer, but imagine a creature such as a Charr standing right in front of you. Would you have any intentions of getting intimate? On top of that, Charr most likely have a smell about them that would hardly be attractive to humans, and the other way round.

Yes, perhaps it is possible in a really, really exceptional case. But think of the consequences a person would suffer. An interracial couple such as this would be shunned and most likely even hated by a large part of its own people. So really, I wouldn’t do it.

Sylvari+human is a different cup of tea. One could also say that human+Norn or Norn+Charr would be less of an issue, since the Norn are pretty much in between the two concerning several points (humanoid physique, large body, animal transformations), but still, I would disapprove if they steered Braham and Rox in that direction.

It’s not that I doubt it can be done from a lore perspective. Within reason, GW2 offers a ton of possibilities for what could be done with a certain type of magic (for example Flame Legion smoke shamans, who use fire magic indirectly to create ash blasts).

But it’s the wording which I find a bit lacking in that interview with Angel. I just wish they hadn’t just dropped the topic of secondary professions so much. It feels a bit like a mechanical choice that has intermingled with lore.

Well, just because GW1 mechanics didn’t have greatwords, maces and warhorns doesn’t mean they didn’t exist in lore. :P

Of course, magic has become more complex, due to the dragons leaking more magic into the world. I absolutely get your point in comparison to chemistry and how it evolved. But that is not really the problem I am pointing at.

Angel explicitly only speaks of powerful mages that delve into different forms of magic. That’s not what secondary professions were about. The point was that even a warrior or ranger (eventhough rangers are definitely magic users by themselves) could get limited access to elementalist or necromancer spells.
That’s hardly the same scenario.

Or it’s just mechanics, to make things look more epic. Just as leaping around in heavy plate armour.

@Aaron:
Angel McCoy said that only the most powerful of mages have the time and energy to do it. Perhaps she’s only talking of truly mastering two magical ways, but if she’s not, we have a contradiction to GW1 lore, where it was no difficulty to learn some elementalist or necromancer spells as a warrior, eventhough they would never be just as powerful.

Yes, one could say that professions are more complex these days. But that doesn’t mean that everybody has the potential to do that or even that everybody is really into that. The PC hero can hardly be representative for all magic users in Tyria. He/she is a hero. Heroes always stand out.

I think Konig describes the problem quite accurate – we don’t know if flashy mechanics are just flashy mechanics or actually magic. Rampage falls in this category as well. It could just be some visualization for archetypical berserker rage, or there could be a magical effect.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In Sea of Sorrows, what happens is a fighter with a hammer slams down on the beach and a cloud of sand around said fighter/hammer shoots up. Which is possible, though not quite to the degree described, without magic.

Actually, in this instance, it is even described that there is a crackle of magical energy around the head of the hammer.
So one could interpret that there is either some passive physical magic involved (of which I have so far not found any other description in GW lore) or perhaps earth magic.
This is, to my knowledge, the only source that gives us a clue for some specific ‘warrior magic’ that doesn’t involve secondary professions.

Which brings me to another point that was mentioned before – GW1 secondary professions. There is no plausible reason why they shouldn’t work anymore (since magic has become more potent in GW2), especially for warriors who wish to spice their combat style up with some minor spells.
I think the way ArenaNet has (or rather hasn’t) treated this topic in GW2 is really quite lackluster.

Angel McCoy has stated that learning two magical disciplines (say, mesmerism AND necromancy together) is possible but akin to having two doctorate degrees and includes the risk of an explosion if directly combined with one another.
I think this is a blatant contradiction of what secondary professions were in GW1, but perhaps she is speaking of completely mastering those two different magical professions.

On the other side, there are several NPCs in GW2 that combine magical spells and weapon choices of several different professions. For example the undead priests in Orr, or these two guys:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vallus_Smokemane
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Drakin_Cinderspire

I’d really like to know what we’re supposed to make of this mess. Especially since I am roleplaying a priest of Balthazar who is a warrior with some fire magic spells, albeit not being a guardian.

I’m with Konig and Aaron in that there are enough references throughout both GW1 & GW2 for the Clergy of the Six being separated into several churches (e.g. one for each god).

Also, it should be mentioned that High Priests did very much exist after Orr was sunk. Examples include Head Priest Vahmani (eventhough his title is somewhat odd) for the priests of Lyssa in Vabbi and High Priest Zhang, the head of the priests of Balthazar as well as leader of Zaishen High Council.

I believe the reason why we don’t specifically see the title of High Priest in GW2 is perhaps the fading influence of the clergy in general. However, what Priestess Rie says pretty much indicates that there still is a leading cleric for each church.

Worth noting is perhaps that the churches appear to have been more diverse und loosely organized in GW1, where there were different forms of priesthood in different countries. In GW2 we see a very strict distinction between priests of different gods, with a specific style of robes/clothing/armor for each priesthood.

As for role-playing as a priest, Hyldenia, I can give you an example from the German roleplaying community where I’ve been playing a priest of Balthazar for well over two years now.
We have, for the most part, come to an agreement for RP that the churches are mostly regarded as splitted into six with their own separate hierarchies, however still belonging together for a single larger concept (eventhough there can, of course, be rivalries – the gods and their priests are known to have competed with each other since Wintersday in GW1).
As for specific hierarchies within the churches, you should refrain from playing high priests or the likes of them. That’s simply because we don’t know enough about the topic, and also because it would be a bit much to let a single player dictate everything. You can simply separate into aspirants (new acolytes/novices), acolytes/novices and fully fledged priests.
The authority of priests among themselves is a more complicated matter, but imho you can – roughly – expect an elder, more experienced priest to have the deciding vote in an argument.

On a side note:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The difference is the government.

You say “government is government”. But:

Is the government of the United States the same as the government of North Korea?

Is a monarchy the same as a Krytocracy?

And even amongst the same types of government, is one the same as another? No. It is never “government is government”.

The charr would never allow their trade to be dictated by a human constitutional monarchy that is split between charr-haters and peace-wanters.

Actually, Kryta is no constitutional monarchy as far as I can tell. That would imply that the power of the Krytan monarch is restricted by law, which appears not to be the case, eventhough it is implied in LS episode 4 that Jennah could get arrested for treason in a worst-case scenario .

In every other context it appears to be an absolute monarchy, albeit a mild one – which doesn’t mean that the queen dictates everything, but that she has the right to overrule ministers every time she likes to, which is not possible in a constitutional monarchy.

Other than that.. eventhough I find Mental Paradox’s patriotism regarding a fantasy nation a bit disturbing, I have to agree partly.

Eventhough it doesn’t seem realistic that the Dominion of Winds is going to be claimed back by humanity any time soon (less so with Lion’s Arch, actually, in its severely weakened state), I miss a lot of human ambitions and racism in the game that are not connected to typical villains such as Caudecus.

For all we know, Balthazar has always encouraged humanity to take whatever they want to take via conquest, and they were fairly successfull at that back in the time. Why move away from that so heavily and make humanity so soft in that regard when the charr still seem to be heavily focussed on conquest und racial superiority?

The only explanation I can find for this is the overly diplomatic nature of the current monarch. Jennah seems to be more of a Dwayna/Lyssa follower while neglecting Balthazar.
Replace her. è__é (which would be easier if there were any successors to the throne, duh)

That’s what I found cheesy about that argument as well, admittedly. But you have to consider that our GW1 heroes usually came straight from an academy (Ascalon Army, Sunspears, Shing Jea Monastery) and went through an intense training tutorial before the main storyline actually begins.

Bump.

Thought I’d search the forums a bit before creating a new topic by myself, so I found this old thread. I do realize that it’s over one year old, but I think it’s worth it to look into this topic once more.

Secondary professions were certainly integrated into lore in GW1, and I really see no reason why they wouldn’t work any longer in GW2. For all we know, the bloodstone schools of magic had lost a lot of actual influence in Prophecies already, or else we could not have combined just about any profession with a completely different one and use all forms of magic related to it. As for GW2, we know that the bloodstones have lost influence and have fallen out of style (stated in this interview - eventhough I hate large parts of it because of Angel McCoys careless approach towards original GW lore), and that magic is much more widely available to people. Thus, saying that something shifted in the way bloodstones work that made secondary professions impossible makes no sense to me.

Lore-wise, imho, profession names and actual magic schools need to be separated when speaking about magic. Warriors for example are a physical profession, and while they have got signets and it is implied their attacks might be enhanced by crude magic, I don’t think they can be seen as a magic school for themselves.
And then there are professions that have magic related to them that is not implied by their profession name. For example shadow arts (thief/assassin) and nature magic (ranger – though it is implied in the Factions manual that this is a more harmonic approach to elemental magic).

It has also been said in this interview that the reason why we don’t see profession changes and dualclassing in GW2 is that the PC heroes go down a specific path and are too busy doing heroic deeds rather than dabble into another form of magic. Ree and Jeff say that it’s possible to learn two professions equally, but that it is comparable to being a college professor who has studied everything about physics all his life and then goes back to school to learn chemistry.
It is also said that people use spells in everyday life, for example a barkeeper might use cold spells on drinks, but cannot truly be called a real elementalist because of that trick. So access to simple spells appears to be no big deal in Tyria.

I think the lines between professions are much more fluid in lore than the game mechanics allow. One of my primary examples for this is Vallus Smokemane, who is a mesmer, but uses thief skills as well while equipped in medium armor and using a mace and shield in combat.

Thanks for your opinions on this topic.

Regarding the interview with Angel McCoy – I’ve taken a closer look back at some mesmer skills from GW1 (I never played a mesmer myself, so I had to refresh my memory) and many of them are implying a direct influence or attack on the enemy’s mind. Visions of Regret, Psychic Distraction, Panic, Confusing Images, Fevered Dreams, just to name a few obvious examples.

Most of these skills are hexes and thus directly connected with a single individual. It might not be the same thing as creating an illusion the way mesmers do it in GW2 and only make it visible for a specific person, but there’s a strong implication that mesmers can control minds to a certain degree, I think.
Hexes were a common type of spell back in the original game, and I don’t think they aren’t used anymore in lore just because the combat system in GW2 is a different one. So this seems to contradict Angels statement in that interview.

I don’t know if this topic has been brought up before, but it is one that really bothers me lately.

As a roleplayer, you see lots of wierd things that don’t fit well into the lore, and very often these are associated to magic and how it works in Tyria.

One of those shady topics is mesmer magic and its ability or inability to control minds. While we do know that direct mind control is very much possible in GW, especially with the Elder Dragons, to my knowledge it has never been linked to mesmers primarily. Their focus lies much more heavily on creating illusions for everyone to see, imho. At least since GW2, less so in the original game.

We do know that they can put pain or even voices in your head (as is done by Macha in Sea of Sorrows), but as far as I know, there are no real examples of them truly messing with the head of a single person, e.g. creating illusions that only that single person can see and/or illusions that show something of which that specific person is afraid of (except of course if the mesmer knows beforehand what that guy is afraid of). And we especially don’t see them straight out commanding people around via brainwashing them with spells.

While I don’t think it is something that cannot be done, I’d rather say it is something that is extremely powerful and difficult to do, and should be a done a lot less in RP.

I’d appreciate your opinions on this topic. And should I have overlooked an example of a mesmer messing directly with someone’s head in lore, please feel free to post it.

GscGunner.2419:

Can we get a source or reference somewhere Agroman? i would like to believe it

Here you go: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six

_

Also, a very good point, draxynnic. However, I don’t think that it really matters all that much in the present conflict. Everything the Charr and the remaining Ascalonian nationalists truly care about is their own claim, and both sides are relying heavily upon whatever vague clue they can find within old history scrolls.

I always found it somewhat hypocritical that the Charr claim that humans ‘stole’ their land (via conquering it) while they stylize themselves as a superior conquering race.

Edit: By the way, I don’t think the humans were there to strike back at the Charr for what they did in their war against the forgotten. As the history scrolls mention, Balthazar urged them to fight ALL the other races, and the forgotten were… well, forgotten. Most humans didn’t even know of their existence, and if the gods had sent them in order to avenge them, I think Balthazar would have instructed them differently.