Guild Wars 2

1. pre-Flashpoint Balthazar
2. Olias
3. Palawa Joko
4. Anzhaer, the Hammer of Balthazar
5. Aidan
6. Phlunt
7. High Inquisitor Toriimo
8. Livia
9. Justiciar Hablion
10. King Adelbern

People are being way too specific about Balthazar losing his godhood. All we know is that he was weakened. “They dimmed my light” is not very specific. Though it does seem likely that he lost his godhood, it might well be that the other gods only restrained him in some way, or that he was weakened by some other force. So please, guys, stop pretending that what you’re talking about is some sort of fact. For as long as there is no explicit confirmation, at least.

As for Kormir – since it does seem plausible that GW2’s next expansion will take us to Elona, we might well see her again. Perhaps because of Balthazar.

I think we shouldn’t make the mistake of assuming that Balthazar’s murderous side ever stood in contrast to honor being associated with him. Honor is always a matter of perspective. Balthazar has clearly been associated with rage and violent tendencies since way back in GW1, and is being praised by his followers nonetheless. They may present him and his teachings as honorable, but that doesn’t mean they are, from our point of view.

So while it is clear that Balthazar has changed, that aspect of him has been there before, albeit less extreme. Strictly speaking, he still doesn’t have any evil intentions. Balthazar is in no way comparable to, say, Dhuum or Abaddon, who enjoyed terrorizing people. Balthazar is willing to destroy Tyria to get what he wants, but it’s just collateral damage.

One could even argue that he’s still got a very bloodthirsty, twisted sense of honor.

“I’ve learned there is no honor in war. But if you crave the glory of the fray…”

Those are his words. Glory, honor, where should we draw the line? He’s clearly reacting to the Commander’s challenge here, unleashing Temar and Tegon, where it seems to me that he didn’t have to.

From the top of my head, I’m not sure if they can be found in GW2. I think it can be safe to assume that they still around, though. These are the official scriptures of the gods, after all.

TheMagicFace.9854:

My guess is after his memory was wiped from history, 250 years later, only the order of whispers and a few Priory members would know what he had actually done and how dangerous he and his acolytes actually were.

His memory wasn’t wiped from history. That was over 1300 years ago. Nowadays, Abaddon’s story is well known and even part of the basic religious texts of Kormir.

I don’t see why a real follower of Abaddon would pick ANY order, because he would basically be an antagonist if not outlaw. Perhaps indeed the Order of Whispers, a known enemy of Abaddon, if he feels like it’s a good idea to infiltrate them (it’s most likely not).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Right, I would count it as a prayer to, but it is a prayer that does not involve a living medium like an avatar or priest. Which was my point.

Perhaps I should have said “prayer and/or communication with an avatar”. By medium, I just simply mean a being/thing/place which is impowered by a deity.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And as I said, that line heavily implies you meant god in general which was why I was replying. If all you meant is “you need to be one of the Six Gods to be one of the Six” you basically stated “water is wet”. Which… in that case, why’d you even say that?

Because Menzies is heavily related to the Six and thus human religion. His relevance outside of that system can be assumed to be rather irrelevant.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Plus you said that in response to Menzies being a god, so you were saying “Menzies isn’t an actual god because he’s not one of the Six” so I don’t think you were talking strictly about how the human pantheon works in that post. So…. Hence reply. :P

Well, I was talking about the human pantheon, I can only repeat that. I didn’t state it explicitly because I assumed everyone would know that other religious systems are not of relevance in this example.

Rhaegar.1203:

Fair enough. I was mostly responding to your statement that to be a god, you have to be one of the Six. Seems to me a logical fallacy: Kormir was not one of the Six, because there were already Six; she had to take one of the Six’s power to become a god. She was NOT part of the Six. She joined them.

Uh.. no. Well, yes, she did. But I was in no way implying that you have to be one of the original Six to be a god. I was simply saying that you have to be one of the Six – which includes ascending to become one of them and take the place of another. So I don’t see what it matters what she was before that. Which was, btw., exactly the point of my argument. :P

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There are several cases where individuals receive blessings from a divine being (Six God or Spirits of the Wild in these cases) from statue alone. Kneeling in front of Reaper’s Gate in GW2 for example, or going to the Raven Shrine/Wolf Shrine in EotN.

I would count this as prayer. Of course this is done by kneeling, gameplay-wise.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We are talking about the Six, yes, but you said “As far as we know, being an actual god requires you to be one of the Six.”

And that is simply incorrect. You do not have to be one of the Six to be an actual god.

As I said, I was talking strictly about how the human pantheon seems to work. Of course there are other deities. And subjectively, anything can be a god to, say, a bunch of grawl. :P

Why wouldn’t he? Okay, perhaps he wouldn’t need the priest. But for one to benefit from divine boons in the absence of the actual god is usually seen to require some sort of medium, be it prayer & communication with an avatar or the blessing of a priest. At least that’s how it seemingly worked with the Five/Six in GW1.

And since there are traitors even among the Eternals, I think it is safe to assume that gods/god-like beings don’t necessarily have direct control over their closest followers.

Rhaegar.1203:

Where do you get this “trying to ascend to godhood”? The reason for the war he’s waging on his half-brother has never been stated.

Since he is trying to usurp Balthazar, it’s relatively safe to assume that he’d want to completely take his place. Doesn’t mean that this is his primary objective, but certainly a part of what he’s doing.

Rhaegar.1203:

For years we thought about the gods as The Five. It was only when Nightfall was released that we counted one more among them. Who’s to say there aren’t more (many more) that just have not revealed themselves?

Highly unlikely within this pantheon. As we found out, they were actually always The Six, we just didn’t know. So I doubt ArenaNet would pull that same plot off once again. Aside from that, the gods represent certain ascepts of life & magic, and there’s not too much left to fill in.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing puts him as divine.

Yeah, I know. I was just using it as a rough description, because he is related to the Six.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And there are gods that exist outside of the Six, if other races are to be believed.

Yes, but we’re talking about how the human pantheon works, aren’t we? At least that’s what I was referring to.

Menzies is trying to become a god by usurping Balthazar’s power. He is certainly a powerful, ‘divine’ entity, but as we have seen with Kormir, that is no requirement for ascending to godhood. As far as we know, being an actual god requires you to be one of the Six.

That might not stop people from calling him an evil god, etc., which is propably why he is simply listed as a deity on the wiki. You need to keep in mind that most stuff on the wiki is written by players, and eventhough it is required to give accurate information, people tend to come up with individual terms here and there.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

As far as Lore and story goes we need to keep in mind a few things.

• There is no actual record in game of Menzies conversing or conspiering with Dhuum and Abaddon, only past tense information given by Dhuum’s or Abaddon’s minnions.
• It says on the GuildWars 1 wiki on Menzies page “To aid himself in his fight against Balthazar, Menzies has made an alliance with Abaddon and Dhuum’s servants. As part of this pact with the fallen gods, Menzies once sent three of his Darknesses to lead a force of Dhuum’s followers and demons in an attack on The Hall of Heroes through the portal from the Tomb of the Primeval Kings.” showing he has demonstrated clear authority over another God’s army.
• As Shadow arm can be found in several places in the Realm of Torment and Domain of Anguish, its clear that he has no reservations about establishing his forces in other domains or territories.

Don’t you think the forces of Dhuum and Abaddon would, you know, do something about Menzies’ soldiers if they were there as invaders instead of allies?

I’m not entirely sure if Gnashblade’s in-character promotion of that outfit should be taken as official lore here. Obviously this always serves to add some flavor to new shop items, but is it really much more than that? I doubt it. Evon Gnashblade would propably be in serious trouble with the Krytan government for a statement such as this.

As Mist has already pointed out, Menzies doesn’t control much of anything as far as we last saw, though his Shadow Army posed a serious threat to the Eternal warriors of Balthazar and even took the Temple of War from them for a short period of time.

However, I believe the aforementioned torch is an implication that Menzies has lost the war with his brother, since it is made of skull-like faces, and we can see a giant skull, which looks quite similar in fact, on a datamined FoW map that was never put into GW2.

Aside from that, the reason for why the avatar of Balthazar attacks us is simple in my opinion: It’s a defense mechanism. The avatar only spawns when the entrance to the inner temple is blocked by Mordrem vines, while there is no implication that the statue itself has been corrupted.
I firmly believe that the avatar and hounds only appear in aggressive defense against dragon corruption and do not really make a difference between anything that gets caught in between. We know from other examples that Balthazar’s magic is quite violent and dangerous to those that get in contact with it, so it makes sense.

Made my day.

…are you serious?

I tend to agree with Konig that Divinity’s Reach won’t become hostile territory. But I do believe there could still be lasting impact on the city.

The White Mantle could destroy the Crown Pavilion, for example. I have hated that thing ever since they removed the Balthazar fighting shrine and the Great Collapse in favor of it. And frankly, it has always looked out of place and overly decadent to me – keeping in mind that the rest of Kryta struggles severely with all sorts of attacks and money is very much needed for warfare.

Matthias Gabrel: “I am the scythe, the bringer of salvation.”
Squad Leader Bennett: I need your help!
Matthias Gabrel: “And I shall harvest the souls of the unbelievers.”

Matthias Gabrel – Guild Wars 2 Wiki

Justiciar Hablion: “I am the scythe, the Bringer of Salvation.”
Justiciar Hablion: “And I shall harvest the souls of the Unbelievers.”

Bloodstone Fen – Guild Wars Wiki

It seems they did some pretty nice work there. I’m curious for more GW1 references coming with this raid wing!

I am aware of that, however I was rather looking for cases that just happen naturally, perhaps I should have said that more clearly. This seems to be the case with the pirate ghosts at Broken Beacon. Thanks for your input anyways, guys!

Nope, I haven’t, but as I said, I’m not keen on borrowing from other fantasy universes on this matter.

I agree with Aaron here. I was really only looking for regular ghosts that are bound to objects instead of places, which is pretty much what is the case with those pirate ghosts mentioned before. Problem solved!

Yeah, Belinda comes to mind as sort of a special case, since she willingliy bound herself to the blade, but that’s not what I’m looking for.

The pirate ghosts at Broken Beacon seem to be a good find for this. Thanks!

Hey everybody,

some of my recent ideas for upcoming roleplay involve a specific NPC character of our group’s past returning as a ghost. As far as we know, ghosts that remain in Tyria (Foefire ghosts aside) instead of passing into the Mists usually have a reason that keeps them from vanishing and are of varying sanity – some little more than angry spirits, some fully aware of their situation.

However, what I keep asking myself is this:
Ghosts that stick around in Tyria are usually bound to haunt a specific place. That place does not necessarily have to be the place where they died, as seen with Kimmes the historian, but still, they tend to stick there.
Would it be possible for a ghost to be bound to a specific object instead of a place and appearing only near that object? There are many examples of wizards binding souls to certain things, but can it happen naturally?
So far I haven’t found any examples from the top of my head, hope you guys can help me. (Edit: I’m really only looking for specific examples from GW lore, not general ghosts in typical fantasy universes)

Cheers!

Argon.1563:

Fundamentally, its a slightly adapted version of the Feudal System.

Feudalism, like draxynnic said, is based on nobles ruling their own land and having their own soldiers. There was even an interview on Wartower where Angel McCoy confirmed this has been abolished in Kryta, eventhough she said it in very simplistic way – “the land-owning part has gone away” or something like that.

Some people call Kryta a constitutional monarchy, but I think that doesn’t truly apply, since the Crown can still overrule everything the Ministry does. So the term used by draxynnic is propably the best.

Argon.1563:

If there had to be a specific hierarchy, it would probably be
Queen -> Legate Minister -> Ministry -> Nobles -> Ministry Guard -> Seraph -> Peasants.

A linear hierarchy cannot apply to the Krytan ruling system. For example, the Ministry Guard is not in a higher position than the Seraph (eventhough they themselves would say so). They are simply responsible for a more exclusive job. In fact, most of the time in the Personal Story, they are clearly overruled by the Seraph.

draxynnic.3719:

(The Ministry Guard could be said to be knights, since they appear not to allow commoners into their ranks, but I don’t think the term is ever actually used.)

That was stated early on, but since Marjory served in the Ministry Guard and is a commoner, that’s not entirely true anymore. Perhaps it is realistic to say that they rarely allow commoners into their ranks, that there are some exceptions from time to time.

draxynnic.3719:

The interrelationship between the Crown and the Ministry is probably similar to that between the President and Congress (the Founding Fathers of the US basically gave the President the powers that were typical of kings at the time: an elected, limited-term monarch was pretty much exactly what they were going for)

Aside from the actual point you make, I think this is a bad comparison, since the Krytan monarchy is based on being inhabited by a descendant of King Doric – which means, being from a bloodline that was chosen by the gods themselves.

Hi folks,

I’m sorry if this has been posted before, but after reading the Exalted tablets from ‘A Study in Gold’ more closely, a fellow roleplayer has stumbled upon this pretty outrageous continuity error:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Study_in_Gold

“Glaust herself was a defender of civilization, at great risk to herself, and Kralkatorrik understood the depth of her betrayal and killed her for it.”

So let’s get that straight. These lines are supposed to be from the final speech which the last of the Forgotten has given to the Exalted. That’s approximately 200 years ago.

Glint died just eight/nine years prior to where we are now. We definitely need some fixing here. Almost as bad as the time they messed up Dhuum with Abaddon.

On a side note: Humans are also said to hold the best knowledge in agriculture of all races, at least according to the wiki. That can be quite important as well and might be one of the reasons why Kryta can still endure on an economical basis.

Good to know, thanks.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

we have the xenophobic and (recently confirmed) prosperous nation of Cantha.

I haven’t noticed any recent confirmation for that. Could you please post a reference? That would be interesting to read.

Well, that was fixed quickly! Forget I said something.

This is just pathetic, sorry to say so. Hope they fix it.

This is obviously just an oversight. Look at the other lines – rhey are an exact copy of the human ones.

I have never come across any non-human members of the Order that speak this line. Generic lines for Whispers Agents are listed at the bottom of this article:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whispers_Agent

Do you have any proof for your claim?

I’m not talking about taking gameplay mechanics as lore. I’m a huge enemy of that. But the skills give us a theme, a direction. Let’s say someone RP’s with channeling Jora as a Revenant legend and later on Jora is actually released as a legend but doesn’t provide magic that is anywhere near that guy’s roleplay. That would suck for said person and mean they RP’d outside of lore up to that point.

What does it matter? People revere gods based on which attributes und values they represent.

I didn’t watch Rytlock channeling that accurately, so I can’t tell. And yes, Revenant lore is weak at the moment, but the skills at least give an impression of what you can do by channeling which legend.

The explanation ist simple: The Order of Whispers obviously relies on stealth, and Grenth is the patron god of darkness an assassins. Similarly, all Seraph will greet you with “May Balthazar strengthen you.” since they are the Krytan army, and soldiers pray to the god of war – eventhough the Seraph armor style was inspired by Dwayna.

There is no confirmation for what some of you guys are claiming. The revenant channels powerful legends from the Mists, not just anything – that is what we know. I tend to agree with Diovid in that the profession is restricted to legends, because they leave an impact of power large enough to be noticed and harnessed.

That aside, of course it is plausible that there are more legendary heroes/villains to call upon other than those we currently see ingame. But I wouldn’t advise to roleplay other legends, because there might come a day when those or similar legends are actually implemented into gameplay and it turns out you were RP’ing it the wrong way.

draxynnic.3719:

There’s a bandit champion in one of the Caudecus Manor explorables who is very obviously a guardian – spirit weapons, symbols, and all.

Wasn’t she one of the separatists hidden around the manor? I’m not sure if I remember correctly.

@Daniel:
The example is perfectly fine, so I’ll stick with it, although there is not much to say about it.
What does it tell us? Elementalists and berserkers both make use of magma rocks. That’s it. What can we do with it? Speculate. Because that’s essentially all we are doing here.

I’m not saying that one cannot sometimes look at what a skill does mechanically, which boons or conditions it creates, etc., etc. to determine what exactly it does lore-wise. This is easy when we are talking about skills that are clearly magical spells. Warrior/ranger and even a few of the guardian shouts are not clearly magical, but still, they need to be just as viable mechanically as spells are, so they are balanced that way to do what they do. And this is the reason why I tend to raise an eyebrow whenever people try to take gameplay mechanics on a rather non-magical skill and try to explain it all with magic if there are other ways of interpreting that do not frantically stick with mechanics (e.g. shouts that simply rally people based on pushing them to their limits in extreme situations). Of course, that does not mean there is no possibility of magic being combined with that.

Kalavier.1097:

Because the guardian is NOT a paladin of good and justice and righteousness. There are bandit/separatist guardians out there.

Well, at least in case of separatists, they can still perfectly believe that what they do is good, just and righteous. Faith is often enough about fanaticism, and what are the separatists if not racist Ascalonian fanatics? They are certainly not to be compared with Krytan bandits.

And I can’t remember any bandit guardians from the back of my head. Correct me if I’m wrong.

But I agree with your point. The whole “guardian = paladin” thing that people keep bringing up really gets to my nerve. Of course, the profession is themed around very similar things, but it’s not the same thing. There are some perfectly fine options for guardians who are not stereotypical guys in bright, super-heavy plate armor wielding a sword and shield. The dragonhunter is only one example – personally, I like to think of a more officer-style elegant guardian in a 17./18. century military coat. A friend of mine role-plays a guardian of this sort, and actually, if I remember correctly, Osh Moran in Sea of Sorrows was described in a fashion similar to this, being a navy captain.

We’ve had that discussion before, and my answer is still the same. It’s entirely situational. Personally, I tend to look more at thematic display of a skill rather than what it does mechanically. I never said anything about “lore vs mechanics”.

I’m just saying that could be pure mechanics in the same way rapid fire/endless ammo is.

Also, it should perhaps be noted that in extreme situations, motivational shouting alone can enable people to do things in spite of severe injury that should normally stop them from it. Of course, that doesn’t remove said injury permanently, but you catch my meaning.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Because by all accounts shouts removing a crippled condition caused by a weapons seems like healing magic.

Or mechanics as well.

Guns in the books are described as regular gunpowder weapons. No magic rapid fire ammo there.

Also, I agree with Kalavier. I’d add to this that it is perhaps possible that primal magic can alter how loud or how ferocious a voice is, but how much that affects the opponent/ally still depends on that person and is no direct use of magic.

draxynnic.3719:

Came across this guy while researching another project. He describes himself as a ‘monk’, although whether he’s actually a member of the profession in the GW1 sense, I’m not sure. Might have to see if it’s possible to get him into combat and see what he does.

Similarly, I don’t recall seeing the inhabitants of Eldvin Monastery fighting, although it’s been a while.

I believe he calls himself a monk because he is from the monastery rather than being a member of the monk profession. I’ve seen him fighting once, I think he used the same lightning spells as the other NPC priests of Dwayna.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It alters the dialogue of a specific priest/priestess in Queensdale.

That’s all.

Actually, there’s one more thing to it. After doing the first few personal story quests, you get a named priest in Salma District that is determined by which god you chose.

Sadly, these don’t have any real dialogue, but at least some unique greeting dialogue if you try to speak with them.

Kalavier.1097:

Hm. Well, gameplay mechanics will play a part in it. For example, the “Ascalon monks” in fractals don’t really use any monk like skills that I remember.

But hey, I did say it’s my head-canon/personal belief that monks are still around, just to a lesser extent. Because honestly, the type of magic monks used/the role they filled in society wouldn’t go away (even if the gameplay reason for it has).
edit: I simply don’t see the monk, so heavily tied to Dwayna, being removed and all priests/priestesses of Dwayna being eles now :P.

I agree completely with your opinion. But I’d also say that it’s more than just mechanics if we see the priests putting out fires with water magic that cannot be done by players in the same way. I believe that is more ambient stuff than mechanics. Still, you’re right – it doesn’t make much sense that monks are completely gone, especially among priests. We have been told that more effective ways to achieve similar magical effects have been found, but clerics are very traditional people. So I believe it’s fair to say that we have both monks, unarmored guardians and elementalists among the priests of Dwayna.

Kalavier.1097:

Well, isn’t air magic under Dwayna’s domain anyway? Easy to see some being air elementalists.

Course, my viewpoint revolves around all the priests in the salma district hospital and at the post-tutorial house being monks due to their role as healers. I see monks as still being around, just not as prominent outside of humanity, and not playable.

Actually, especially the ones in salma district hospital are the ones I was referring to. During personal story, they use water magic to put out fires and later air magic to aid the PC and Seraph in the fight against the bandits. Which, of course, is also fitting for a priest of Dwayna.

Daniel Handler.4816:

You are equating game mechanics and lore. Because I don’t believe we are shown adrenaline outside of the game. I don’t even think we are told that paragons can perform magic outside of the mechanics. Do they even tell us that Paragons use fire?

I equate lore and mechanics in some cases, where I deem it to be reasonable. Looking at visual skill effects and atmosphere is most important to me. Which is, of course, a biased method, I won’t deny.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fire magic cannot be added to the discussion because of the bloodstones.

Bloodstone distinction of magical schools is mostly ‘artificial’ and also less important in modern times.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The possibility that elementalist and paragons drew from the same source is more than unlikely.

True. Could the same thing be said about elementalists and berserkers? Certainly not.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The ritualist spirits were made from lightning.

Where do you take that from?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Guardians have zero access to lightning. Guardians make everything they do out of a blue white or flame.

Actually, Osh Moran (a guardian) used a lightning-related spell in Sea of Sorrows, if I remember correctly.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The comparison of mesmer and thief is comparable to paragon and warrior.

I believe that nobody here had any doubts about warriors and paragons being comparable to one another.

I wasn’t talking about the ‘Furious’ upgrade, because I, unlike you, do not equate mechanics and lore. And concerning the paragon skill, let me quote myself:

Also, I did say before that I have no doubts that guardians and paragons can utilize anger as well.

Monk prayers were powered by faith and by invoking the gods. Of course smiting prayers are more aggressively themed, but the important part in my argument is about what’s the primary source of accessing magic. Which isn’t anger – neither for the smiting monk, nor for the paragon and the guardian.

Yes, I take the warrior’s way of building adrenaline as mechanics rather than lore.

It appears to me that you try to explain every bit of game mechanics as lore. There is no 100% correlation – they are simply often connected to one another. Because that’s logical. Also, I did say before that I have no doubts that guardians and paragons can utilize anger as well. But, once more, that doesn’t mean that it is their primary source of power. They don’t use it for everything they do – unlike berserkers.

Yes, Balthazar is a lot about rage. But that isn’t the point in this discussion at all.

You seemingly don’t understand that while anger is in many cases linked to adrenaline, that does in no way mean that adrenaline itself is synonymous to anger. Clinging to that in order to proclaim that paragons and berserkers use the identical form of magic doesn’t make it any more true. They perhaps have a very similar source. But not the same.

That’s nonesense. Adrenaline is not anger. It can be (and is, in many cases) tied to anger, but not necessarily so. Anger is, however, the same thing as wrath.

I agree with the common opinion that it’s always about context when a profession’s power is concerned. Magic has always got the highest potential of raw power and large-scale effects to be achieved by a single person, but a very skilled and/or experienced warrior can still take out a powerful mage with pure martial expertise if they get close enough, as has been stated before.

However, in terms of power in connection with adaptability, I’m going to claim that mesmers are the potentially most powerful profession, hands down. They can pull off illusions (massive ones in some cases) and put hexes on people’s minds to influence reality, they can do speedcasting to interrupt enemy spells AND they can alter time. That can beat pretty much everything – potentially, that is.

Concerning Norn – while they are physically superior to the other races (including the Charr, though I’d give these guys one advantage in that they possess claws and fangs) by far, I agree with what draxynnic. There were human heroes that could best norn warriors