Guild Wars 2

So wait, GW2’s entire class balancing is handled by two people?

Did I miss the update were GW2 became an indy production or something…?

Lopez.7369:

They balance for WvW. They have said in the past they take it as seriously as PvE and structured PvP.

And yet history would prove otherwise…

Raijinn.9065:

They basically nerfed my whole grenadier build

Apparently Grenades were more OP and demanding of a nerf then HB and Backstab combined.

Yeah, go figure.

JonPeters.5630:

We made the improvements we had time to test.

So in what universe did your “testing” conclude Engineer grenades were more overpowered and nerf-worthy then HB or Backstab, you know, the skills actually killing people in 1-2 seconds

And really, two people working on class balance updates? Did I miss the notice where GW2 was an indy production now?

Eleazyair.5716:

Jon Peters made this statement in the Ranger forums.

“We made the improvements we had time to test. There are still more ranger improvements but when our time is limited we have to focus on things we know we can fix. Signets and shouts are still on the docket, and I suspect some of each of these will get some love in the next time around. As you can see a lot changed in this build for every profession and we have to test these changes as well.
I do still believe ranger is the profession in most need of improvement after this patch and we will continue to make those improvements. If we could fix everything at one time we would, but the reality is there are a limited # of hours to make changes.
I see a lot of talk about ranger weapons, but I don’t think that is the real problem. I think sword and longbow are both good weapons, which is why the changes take longer. The problems are deeper, in pets ability to hit moving targets, trait lines with not enough viable choices and skills that are often too specialized to really compliment the weapon builds. These aren’t things we can change overnight. The change to Greatsword block was in fact a very difficult change, but we made it because we knew it was the right thing to do.
There are >500 skills in this game, 480 traits, and 2 designers working on this. Even then often we are bottle necked by other issues. I’m not going to say we are not working on these things, nor can I say there are things we could have changed but just ran out of time on, but this was a patch that contained ranger improvements and it will not be the last one that does so. Maybe you want more than honesty but that is what I currently have to offer.
Jon”

I think that’s something we need to take into account if what he says is true.

So in what universe were Engineers even hitting people with grenades in SPvP, let alone killing them so much that it warranted a nerf when Hundred Blades and Backstab didn’t…?

Backstab is still grossly overpowered and P/P goes ignored yet again.

Sterling effort AN…

Thanks AN, its not like Engineers needed working sigils or scaling turrets. Them tooltips were REALLY the problems with our class. Also good call on nerfing grendes in PvP. Clearly the entire play-base was hallucinating when we saw Warriors and Thieves ripping people down in 1-2 seconds. It was really us fiendish Engineers that were the tyrants of PvP, with our grenades no less…

Seriously, what the devil are you devs doing up there? Are you even playing the same game as us any more…?

These notes are a joke. No nerfs for Warriors, next to nothing meaning for Thieves but that’s fine, lets slam Engineers with PvP nerfs on grenades of all things because they are the tyrants of SPvP now…?

This HAS to be some sort of joke, right AN?

My first reaction reading the change notes was “This is someone’s joke on Reddit, right?”

Engineers still cannot get working sigils despite that being promised sometime around launch three frigging months ago, turrets still do not scale with anything (see above) but hey let’s eat some damage nerfs instead in case someone actually goes in to a coma at the keyboard and actually gets hit by one in PvP someday.

I am starting to wonder if AN are even playing the same game as us any more.

Well said, OP. AN have really dropped the ball on communicating to the player, especially since launch.

The very idea flies in the face of their own design tenants, especially the “Respect the player” claim. Then again, there seems to be a lot of that going around AN lately…

fixit.7189:

I am going to assume they really don’t care one bit about Wv3 (which was a major selling point for me btw) and will let it devolve into which side has the best gear on a whole.

Considering they have left free transfers open for over 2 months which has been nothing but poison for competitive WvW, we could of established AN don’t give jack about WvW a long time before now. That is before we go in to the problems of exploiting certain skills, model culling, poor server performance, excessive queues, poor rewards/incentives and the whole shopping list of other WvW issues.

And they wonder why they are losing players…

I could understand the OP’s point if AN had been man enough to present this plan when they were first intent on putting it in the game. They could of treated us like adults, sat down months ago and said “Ok we think end-game activities need a bit more incentive. We are planning something like this, this or this etc.”

Instead they spring a massive 180 degree about face less then three days before the patch and broker no discussion on it. And people wonder why hell broke loose.

I have no doubt a lot of the harsher responses could be overreaction or over-emotional but again, I put the blame squarely on AN. They had the chance to do the right thing and instead act without transparency or integrity. Their actions fly in the face of many claims of the development team (especially the “Respecting the player” tenant.) and in light of this, the whole thing looks nothing short of dishonest and underhanded.

So yeah, frankly I think they deserve whatever they get. You reap what you sow as the old saying goes.

BadHealer.3608:

Deathdance.2045:

dont mis understand Agony with another game mechanics, Agony is the SAME as “Guild Wars 1” that the Mursaat used on you, same mechanics, same name.

Im also ok with agony as it worked well on gw1 but come on, at least guys read the lore from gw1 before posting that Agony is from another game.

Sorry, but every piece that the developer posted is totally opposite of your statement.

You can’t infuse your old armor

It use a slot that is nowhere else to be found

You need to grind for better infusion

And so on. What makes you think that the developers are too stupid to understand what they are doing?

To be fair, considering we have been clearly BSed by both the developers and even the company president, putting faith in anything AN says now is a real gamble.

fixit.7189:

They uh back tracked on their Manifesto and all the things they said for the past 5 years so what makes you think they won’t back track again? Whatever things they say now can be changed at a whim later on. They already did it once; so what’s to stop them from doing it again and again?

That for me is the biggest problem. We were nothing short of lied to by the president of AN. Are we honestly expected to believe anything they say at this point?

Angrec.6970:

Man the closer we get to the launch of this, the more worried I am, especially with such silence/pr stuff coming from arenanet. I dont want to have to leave, but if this goes live Ill experience the lost shore events then do so.

I just honestly cant understand why they have to put in infusion and a higher tier of gear (especially this early). I really cannot find any sort of gap between legendaries and exotics (exotics that cost/time investment that go up from nothing to legendary standards, some like mjolnir cost more then a legendary), and them leaving the manifesto behind really confuses me.

Indeed. The fact they waited to the last moment to spring this change on us shows not only how little they actually value player input but they knew this change would take a lot of flak from the majority of players. Long story short, AN got greedy and are trying to make the game more WoW-centric in a pitiful attempt to milk more box sales. As much as I love this game, I really do hope it bites them in the kitten Hard.

Teva.2807:

I have read te concerns, and I do understand where they are coming from. In a matter of fact, at one point I was one of the concerned. I just think that everyone is overreacting now at this point when the mechanic isnt even out yet. You know that arenanet stinks at explaining, idk why people are overreacting.

Common sense really; once the element gets jammed in to the game, it is going to be close to impossible to get it out.

On top of that, as pissed off as we are, the majority of people that are riled up against this change actually DO love this game and want it to do well. The problem is, this change is going to divide the community, drive off loyal fans/customers and ultimately make the game less fun. People who are not having as much fun are not going to spend as much money and less money means big problems for AN and GW2. Regardless of what camp you pitch your tent in on this issue, this is a huge problem for EVERY GW2 fan.

crewthief.8649:

I’ll join others here and say that i’m pretty disappointed with this. I did alot of research on this game and it seemed to be exactly what I was looking for in an MMO. I’m fed up with gear grinds in other MMOs, and ANet was apparently catering to my demographic (and the demographic of many, many others as well). And then this. After all their pledges, after all their talk, after their Manifesto…they pull this. We all know how this ends, if you’ve been playing MMOs for any significant amount of time. Yet another complete and utter waste of time crafted in the form of entertainment. Sure, you don’t HAVE to get this gear, but then, if you want to compete in the highest end content, be it WvW or PvE, you do. It is a gear treadmill, pure and simple. In fact, it fits the definition perfectly.

One question I have. With all the hundreds and hundreds of options available to players that enjoy gear treadmills, why must they always end up changing every game I seem to end up in?

I all honesty, this is probably it for me when it comes to MMOs. Folks, with this, I think it’s clear that there is no TRUE innovation on the horizon. You either enjoy this garbage, or you don’t. And if you don’t, then you don’t enjoy MMOs apparently. I suppose I don’t enjoy MMOs.

The irony is GW2 was supposedly “The MMO you will love if you don’t like MMOs” because its mission was to break the molds when it came to the genre and avoid the elements people dislike about such games.

Yet another lie, sadly.

AN has proven it does NOT care what the majority of its players have to say. The fact they are going ahead with this moronic plan when it flies in the face of not only the overwhelming public opinion but the words of their own company president proves this. The only way for the customer to get his word across is voting with their wallets. I refuse to give AN another cent while they see fit to lie and betray the fans and customers that put them on the map. I implore every other disgruntled player to do the same

“Caving in to the vocal minority” is why they are doing this moronic plan to begin with. Do you honestly think the majority of fans are people that bought this game under the silent hope AN would sell out their own tenants?

A good article to post and a picture perfect example of what is happening here. AN are selling out their core customer base and even their integrity and reputation to try and lure more WoW-centric players over. Allowing a tiny fraction of players control the direction of the game, especially allowing it to be steered in a complete 180 degrees is down right foolish.

BurnedToast.3781:

Too bad they already have your money.

Someone said something in a different thread which kind of made me think (I apologize to whoever it was, I don’t remember your name):

“If they lose 50,000 existing customers but gain 10,000 new WoW players, it’s a win for them because the 50,000 lost customers already payed.”

Yeah, it’s a short term gain (because of potential gem and expansion sales) but on the other hand they have the potential to gain a LOT of WoW players (of course every game that tried to clone wow has failed, but anet wouldn’t be the first to ignore that in search of a slice of that WoW pie)

The cynic in me now believes the timing of adding gated content/gear treadmill exactly at the time they add a trial for friends is absolutely no coincidence, but rather a shortsighted grab for WoW’s fanbase.

The might have our money but its the loyalist fans that they will rely on to keep the game afloat. They might get a short term boost of box sales thanks to the few WoW kiddies they do lure over but it will not last. GW2 simply isn’t designed to be WoW and one ham-fisted patch will not change that. Like the article has said, the locusts will chew through the new content in a few weeks, get their shiny new gear, get bored and end up going right back to WoW.

Meanwhile, the once- loyal fans who now feel like morons for believing AN and allowing themselves to be betrayed might stay or they might pack their bags and leave. GW2 has only been around for a few months and there are no long-term attachments to keep people around, especially after AN has blatantly lied to them. I actually though encourage people to stay. Not because of any loyalty to AN (which I no longer have. AN traded in that currency out of greed) but because I paid my money and might as well milk what enjoyment out of it I can. I will say though after spending a fair chunk of change on Gems, that is pretty much the last cent AN will ever get out of me and again, I encourage disgruntled players to do the same. AN have proven concepts like loyalty and honest mean little to them and are fixated on short-term revenue gains at the expense of everything else. If that only language they speak now, I am happy to oblige.

AN has proven it does NOT care what the majority of its players have to say. The fact they are going ahead with this moronic plan when it flies in the face of not only the overwhelming public opinion but the words of their own company president proves this. The only way for the customer to get his word across is voting with their wallets. I refuse to give AN another cent while they see fit to lie and betray the fans and customers that put them on the map. I implore every other disgruntled player to do the same

As much as I am a PvP fan, I cannot blame the OP.

A dagger Thief or GS Warrior looking at you funny is enough to kill you.

MOVINGSHADOW.4632:

Arena Net are starting to wake up! Ascended Gear, well it’s a start I suppose.

Now give the addition of raids, progression and you will keep a large bored slice of your player base and bring those that have left, returning.

This game could be so much more! if you only cater for the more hardcore game types, I wanted GW2 to be my MMO of choice but due to lack of raids this game lacks.

Now before the torrent of casual tears starts, I ask you why are you so bothered? just don’t join in simple!!! Hey your casual, stats on gear, progression should not bother you in the slightest, not like you have the time or want to make the effort is it?

Fuller servers, more players and most importantly sales would increase as you open up to an alienated raid player base.

Yes because lying to players and forcing on them the very elements they left other games to escape sounds like a wonderful way to secure more players and revenue….

…Oh wait.

Ganzo.5079:

There is a little problem, that we dont know how infusion work, the wiki said that the infusion provide an inherent agony resistance, but we dont know if the bonus provided BY the infusion is dungeon related only, because if it influence all the world content we have:

And who’s fault is that? AN refuse to communicate or even give us patch notes for months then at the last moment, spring game-changing news on us.

You would have to be crazy NOT to expect people to be upset.

IV Endu.8920:

Man I’m pretty sure you’re all a bunch of whiny kittenes.

Anet is doing everything they can to make the game fun and you’re all making assumptions and having negative attitudes towards everything they do.

“Everything they do”? There has been all of one content patch since launch and it flies in the face of the claims made by their own president.

If I have to explain why that is simply messed up I think I’d be wasting both our time.

Columba.9730:

As long as these are as easily obtained in wvwvw, I am fine.

They won’t be in WvW at all come patch launch.

Deth.4109:

ill say this, dogma and personal philosihpy doesnt need to impeede progress, if the model they started out with wasnt getting them far as they had hoped then its only human of us to want to change our beilifes to “try” to ensure greater sucess.

If you honestly think this is going to ensure success, I don’t know what to tell you. The feedback so far has been nothing short of overwhelmingly negative. If AN do not refuse to see sense on this issue, they risk losing more players then they could ever hope of retaining.

Long story short, customers really HATE being lied to.

Lopez.7369:

That post was a bunch of contradictions:

“We want to add a tier with more stats between exotic and legendary, even though exotic and legendary basically share stats.”

“We don’t want a gear treadmill, but here’s how we’re adding one!”

“We want to make it an even playing field for all types of players, but we’re okay with leaving WvW and event players behind for now.”

The WvW news is no shock. WvW has been a complete afterthought from the get-go. I would wager a good deal of their player-loss is from that (I am a former Titan Alliance member and I know a good deal of our members took a break after we disbanded. There was an awful lot of frustration from the total lack of action on AN’s part.) with the whole scene and their solution is… to introduce outdated PvE WoW mechanics to fix it.

Yeah I am sure that will end well…

monepipi.5160:

Then they’ll just give another response to placate you. Then you’ll grind the new tier, wouldn’t you? repeat ad infinitum. Thats reaaaal fun. Not like wow, guys! I promise!

People are angry because they loved the game. They had faith, and believed in ANET’s initial statements. All this anger and negativity is totally justified.

The irony is they stand to drive off more of their once-customers then they might of retained by appeasing the WoW mentality. Nothing short of foolishness if you ask me. Many came to this game to escape the very concepts they are trying to force upon us. It is not going to end well.

ChairGraveyard.2967:

Well, I am not happy about having my exotic gear obsoleted and being forced to grind out an entirely new gear set.

That said, assuming we don’t have any new tiers coming in every couple of months, it’s not as bad as it could have been. Still bad, but less bad than otherwise.

The day they go adding new tiers though is going to be one I’ll personally be back here, again displeased.

Do you honestly believe there will not be more? Especially after AN claimed there would be no gear progression to begin with?

CJAncients.6907:

Quoted for truth.

It doesn’t matter how much time people have to collect the new ascended items, it’s still vertical progression. The currently slight gap will only widen as more contents are released, and a few years later, we have will just be another treadmill.

This is what worries me the most. It took them less then three months to betray their own word, a word given by their own company president. Are we honestly expected to be stupid enough to believe there will not be more tiers to be added to the treadmill once the WoW kiddies they are trying to win over with this plan get bored of their Ascended nonsense?

monepipi.5160:

So, the only way for us not to get caught in this hamster wheel is to get the legendaries. What if they add in another tier after Ascended? Do you trust them enough not to do it?

Start saving up, people! you better pray to zommoros that you get the precursor!

Exactly. They have proven their word means little. What’s to say when the WoW kiddies are bored with their Ascended gear they don’t try and jam another set in to keep them amused.

replicant.3620:

So, what you are saying here is that you are not listening to anyone and you are going to blindly shove an obvious treadmill at us disguised as “content”?

There was never supposed to be gear progression from Exotic to Legendary. Legendary was a status symbol and nothing else. You are now abandoning your design principles and trying to out market us into thinking you are doing it for our betterment. It IS a treadmill when you add in the fact that our Lvl 80 plateau for gear now slopes upward because we have to do Exotic -> Ascended/Legendary to remain competitive. We didn’t need this in GW1 and we don’t need it in GW2. It’s that simple.

If you truly wanted people to not get Legendary items so quickly, then you should have made the vast majority of the items needed for it unable to be traded or bought. People have Legendary pieces now because they spent a lot of RL cash to buy gems and turn into gold, had guilds funding them, simply set their life on hold to push for that sparkle pony, or all of the above.

Well said. For supposedly “listening to us” I fail to recall an awful lot of posts asking AN to drive a burning truck through the very reasons we bought this game.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I’d like to respond to concerns players have raised about ascended items. Please keep in mind that we’re releasing this as one portion of a massive November update that introduces and improves many aspects of challenge, progression, and rewards. With this and upcoming updates, we view ourselves as introducing large amounts of content with supporting systems and features, akin to an expansion pack, building on Guild Wars 2 through a series of live releases. So it’s important for us to be able to add an expansion pack’s worth of progression and rewards to support that content.

No one is against new content. We are against changes that completely fly in the face of multiple claims made by your team during the development of the game, including your own company president.

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.

You say you are not adding a gear treadmill then go on to talk about how you are adding said tier of gear that is better then anything else out there. Umm…Yeah.

Ascended and infusion rewards will be available in both PvE and WvW over time, and be made available through all sorts of content around the world including existing content. PvP will remain unaffected to ensure our intended PvP balance going forward. We are also working on other reward and progression systems for the game that tie into current and new content and features. As you know we care very much about your support and opinion and are listening intently to what you say.

If you care so much about our support, why are you going ahead with a plan that goes against your very own design manifesto? I and many others bought this game because we could pick it up at any time and experience any content available to my level. I don’t care how much time you give us to get this new Ascended nonsense. The fact of the matter is you and the other developers have completely back flipped on one of the very core tenants you had but a few months ago. You are putting gear treadmills and content gating via resistance checks (a failed experiment in many other MMOs, I might add) in the very same patch and wonder why players are upset?

I don’t mind saying I feel pretty kitten foolish putting stock in all the claims this game would be different to other MMOs. I encouraged many of my friends to try and now you are trying to ram-rod in the very elements we were trying to escape.

Finally we look forward to hearing your thoughts on the upcoming content, and we will ensure we share our thoughts with you on the experiences we share in the Lost Shores.

Chris Whiteside – Studio Design Director

There are plenty of “thoughts” about it right now. Just look about the forums.

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

bow.6179:

@Waar Kijk Je Naar. nobody asked for? So you speak for the entire GW2 community? I want it, so apparently you don’t speak for me.

I guess you’re the kind of person who would say “The GW2 community is asking for flying mounts, 50-man raids, gear-based PvP and easier dungeons”?

Amen. Makes me wonder why people like this even bought the game when it was specifically advertised as having no gear grinds/treadmills.

Loxias.2375:

Very emotional, but obviously a minority opinion, as I doubt they would introduce this without a strong customer desire.

Considering the majority of customer desire since the announcement would be now closer to “poking forks in the eyes of anyone involved in this idea”, I would not really be using that as any form of defence.

The game was marketed for months as a MMO with no gear treadmills. If you honestly think the majority of customers are people who wanted the exact opposite of what this game was sold as being then I don’t know what to tell you.

Subtle and clever. Sadly I fear it will be lost on most who read it.

Gehenna.3625:

Yep, see this Anet?

That’s what I mean. Once you say A, you need to say B. If you think that people are exaggerating because they are upset you let go of your principles….it’s started already and this thread is part of it.

Bring in the gear check. That way we can make sure we can shun players and turn this game into “yet another one of those MMOs”.

I think the OP was making a subtle joke along the same lines.

Or at least I hope he/she is.

A legitimate concern. More so consider AN’s poor handling of WvW so far.

moirweyn.9872:

Not excited about any of it. Not even a little bit.

I seem to remember a video where they said grinding was not fun….

A video, multiple interviews and a statement from the bloody company president.

I am looking forward to seeing AN trying to hand-wave all this away…

The community was nothing short of lied to by no less then the company president of AN.

Frankly I am surprised there isn’t MORE of an uproar but I suspect that will come about once the news circulates during the day.

loaded.1938:

forum users are about 5% of gw2 community and the other 95% are probably looking forward to the new patch as i am just saying

Pulling numbers out of your behind is a bad habit but here is something else to consider; It’s not the angry voices on the forum that you should be worried about. It is silent masses that will simply pack up and go elsewhere if the game becomes not to their liking.

Considering the game was founded on such tenants of no gear progressions, resistance checks or grinds, I can safely guess which of the two camps here is likely the overwhelming majority in this train-wreck of a situation.

Albert Einstein once said insanity is doing the same thing over and over while somehow expecting different results.

Resistance checks have been done in other MMOs many times in the past and the results have been pretty much terrible all around. They are boring, take away from gameplay and serve little purpose then being an artificial speed bump to content. Other companies have learned from the mistake and moved away from the idea.

Now in late 2012 we see AN proposing content which is…a gated resistance check.

Insanity indeed…

Hycinthus.6483:

I think ANet is pressured to do this because they are losing players, so now they’re going against their own , as what ppl call it, ‘manifesto’….

Sounds like a sound tactic; dealing with player/revenue loss by pissing off the players loyal to AN and its design ideals.

Wait, no it doesn’t…

arcaneclarity.5283:

If I wanted to play a game with grinding for item progression, I would just play Rift which has far superior itemization.

Exactly. If you were conditioned enough to actually enjoy gear progression, there is plenty of games out their built around it.

GW2 however, was not. Trying to smash it though the wall at this stage in the game is just going to end poorly for all involved.

I will never understand while “meaningful end-game content” has to involve a gear treadmill which is a poor illusion at best to someone with even half a brain.

I swear 15 years of EQ/WoW/etc. has really done a number when it comes to conditioning people.

Crackbone.5710:

Experience.

When something that’s a core philosophy changes so very quickly there’s typically something behind the scenes that is forcing that change.

Typically it has to do with money. Sure, it’s a guess, but an educated and experienced one. Things don’t just “change” because things are working. Something in their model clearly isn’t working, and they’ve decided on this course of action to right whatever is wrong.

But even that doesn’t make sense. How is this going to make them MORE money? At best you pacify the minority of people who are trying to turn this game in to WoW while stabbing a blade in the back of your much larger customer base that bought this game based on the principles preached.

Looking at the server populations are this hour, there seems to be no shortage of people playing and if there IS a financial issue, I’d hazard a guess it would have more to do with pitiful level of products/services added to BLTC since launch. Wasting time and resources that could of been spent on such content instead on some foolish project that will drive good numbers of players away just seems little short of madness to me, especially from a financial point of view.

Celesica.5790:

We are not sure yet what will happen. Let us, again, wait, and see.

I don’t want to say bad things about ANet yet because I’m not sure how this new mechanic and new items work until I experience them. I don’t want to whine without any valid reason/proof. Don’t judge the book by its cover, they say. :/

The problem is once the system goes in, its going to be a hell of a lot harder to dig out. Better to try and trigger an outbreak of common sense now then later.

Crackbone.5710:

Bottom line, ArenaNet needs to keep people playing.

Do you honestly think this move, which is clearly pissing off masses of players, is going to keep people playing let alone putting money in to the game…?

I tend to find business practices that are completely the opposite of what your own company president promised are not the most reliable ways of making money.

I’d challenge you to find a quick fix to stop the bleeding that I assert is going on with the player base besides gear.

What “bleed”? Where are you even getting these notions from…?

Harbard.5738:

kitten me…

I couldn’t of said it better myself.

I hate the idea of Ascended gear.I hate the idea of being lied to even more.

For shame, AN.