I’m a little confused as to why people are suggesting High and Very High population servers, when the logic for using a low population server was explained earlier in the thread.
This is an interesting idea, though. At the very least it would be a fun outing.
While considering target servers, I noticed that the lowest population is Medium, and the only Medium-population servers are European. Nothing against Europeans, but it’ll look better if it looks like it’s on both sides of the pond. Besides, seems a trifle unfair to only inflict our rally on the Europeans.
Aside from that – High and Very High servers will have more people seeing us, and more people being forced into Overflow by an influx of Engineers, which is likely to draw some concern from the players (especially due to GTAV, and Tequatl). It also makes it easier to spread our ranks across several servers, if we start with the Very High populations and work our way down if we fill ‘em up.
If we end up having to do the Gunpowder Plot, as well, then we’ll be in servers that will draw the most attention.
A guild would be a good idea, as well. Engineers For Equal Treatment?
I think the livestream of the patch will be three days after the patch, though – but I’m sure a pack of Engineers dropping swarms of Grenades to ruin the framerate would get attention, one way or another. Certainly force some kind of response, but that might just take the form of banning the Engineers involved. I would prefer, however, to save that for if the rally is ignored – there will be other livestreams, and if we’ve already resigned ourselves to extreme measures, then we will have ample opportunity.
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So far, I’ve posted it on Reddit and in a Charr thread. I’ll post it directly into the Charr forums and in the In-Game Event board, as I think that’s about all that it would fit in – probably still get an infraction, but I’m really not too worried about those. Anybody that would be willing to speak of it in /mapchat, your aid would be greatly appreciated. The Livestream would also be a good place to talk about it; they’ll know that we’re planning something, they’ll know it’s because they’ve ignored our issues for a year, and so will everyone else who’s looking.
Just don’t be hostile to bystanders – they’re not the problem, Anet ignoring us is. Remember, this is the peaceful protest, where we just show up, sing some songs, demonstrate the issue and maybe look sad about it.
The not-so-peaceful one’s in a couple months, if they haven’t begun addressing our concerns by then.
As for armor…I would probably just go Seeker, as it’s the absolute cheapest, easiest-to-craft, most everybody-can-use-it armor Medium armor has. Even has a mask. I’d suggest we pick a color scheme, too; perhaps all Ebony (I think that’s the black-alike from the starter colors…).
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I’d suggest at least Crystal Desert (American) and Aurora Glade (European), as well as Ring of Fire and Anvil Rock.
I would add the hammer, but they’re already doing that. I’d probably focus on trying to create Engineer-unique ways of controlling battle, such as creating temporary walls and so forth, but I doubt that would be something that would happen.
As for what skills I’d add…I’m actually not sure. I don’t typically come up with this kind of thing off-the-cuff. I’d like more turrets (though I’m not sure what kind), maybe some kind of armor-mod-type stuff, a jetpack that lets you fly places or something.
If there were something I could change, I would probably just set the Toolbelt up in such a way that the skills used on it could be entirely separate from those in the Utility slots, though.
They’ll update us when they’re within a month of implementation. Not a minute before.
Posting a link to this on Reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1m5kqg/engineercharr_rally_in_lions_arch_9172013/
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Oh, Turret builds could exist before this. I’ve been using one for most of my playtime, after all.
Things that make them cumbersome: Plethora of bugs and lack of scaling for the Turrets themselves, massive trait cost (60 points for all Turret traits) to the user.
I’m going to hope that this patch involves some bugfixes, at the very least; I’m a bit too pessimistic to hope that it’ll include trait consolidation or scaling improvements. One way or another, this will likely improve my DPS – as long as they don’t nerf turrets in the process.
Also, I have to wonder if the way this will be handled will be such that I can, say, throw out my turrets, get a good hiding place and target an enemy from a distance, causing the turrets to assault.
In theory, this may indirectly resolve the issue of Turrets not attacking World Bosses.
I’ll be sure to test it, I assure you.
Aside from that…I, too, hope they fix the other nineteen bugs we’ve got on Turrets alone.
Apparently, Turrets will be attacking your own target come the new patch.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1m1mut/upcoming_balance_patch_will_make_turrets_attack/
Thoughts?
I actually just had to update this list of Turret bugs today. The thread linked in OP’s post only accounts for one general category of the issues afflicting them.
For those linking the Reddit thread: That change in targeting methods might fix…the Turrets not attacking World Bosses.
Fixing that would be pretty nice, but it’s only one of the various issues plaguing Turrets. Beyond that, there’s unreliable Overcharges (of various flavors, see thread for details), inaccurate rates of fire, achievements that are not contributed to by Turrets, runesets that do not function with Turrets, downleveling and traits alike malfunctioning, and oversized hitboxes.
Other than that, there’s enough discontent on the Engineer boards over the interactions between Kits (one of the most widely-used skillsets of the Engineer, to the point where I, a Turret Engineer, have been accused of disliking the class because I don’t like Kits, and people confusing it for the class mechanic) and Back Items, as well as Legendaries, that we’re planning a kittening rally to try to get the dev’s attention.
It’s been a year now, and the plethora of cosmetic back items from the Living Story and Gem Store are still something a Kit Engineer will only rarely see…well, except for the parts that’re sticking out through the Kit that overrides the item 90% of the time (until it malfunctions and the two objects clip together permanently).
Legendaries are similarly nigh-pointless for a Kit Engineer, despite the amount of work that must be put in to acquire one.
For anyone who’s unsure as to why this thread is on this board: Is this not a valid set of questions for we Engineers to be asking? Is this not a board to discuss the Living Story patch? The content? What to expect? All that aside, were the devs actually looking at threads on the Engineer board, we would probably not feel the need to shove our issues out into the light like this.
All we’re asking for is to have our bugs fixed, to be able to see our Back Items, and the ability to actually show off a Legendary while using the set of skills the devs push us toward.
New bug added to the list – as expected, Turrets don’t trigger Runes of Perplexity.
Side-note: Anybody know if there’s any progress on Engineer Turrets not attacking World Bosses?
Turret-based Interrupts (Overcharges of Net Turret, Rocket Turret, and Thumper Turret; Detonation of Accelerant-Packed Turrets) do not trigger the Runes of Perplexity’s 6-rune effect.
…Yeah, I suppose that is a Turret bug.
Now the list is 20.
I’m not going to lie – that’s kittening depressing. It’s entirely possible I’d been avoiding thinking about that, to be honest. Also, haven’t been in possession of Runes of Perplexity to test it. Thank you, Riojin, for doing the testing – I will add it to the list.
As for possible reasons for the issue: Turrets are, as far as I am aware, treated as separate entities from the player in all ways that are not Boon application, Healing, or Condition Damage/Duration. I’ve a feeling this is related to why they contribute to Condition Applier, but not Condition Remover or Skill Interrupter – the triggers of Remover and Skill Interrupter are considered to originate from the Turret, rather than the controller of the Turret.
Edit: Ugh. If they don’t start fixing some of these, I’m going to quit the game entirely – I hit the kittening character limit on the first post and had to chop out non-bug portions.
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I dont want to rain on everybody’s parade but nothing in the open world will ever be challenging. The two cannot co-exist. Challenging content can only come from an instance.
I GUARANTEE that tequatl will never fail. Everyone will just run around smacking things and it will die. Sad truth.
Quote me on this. Bookmark this page. Im willing to match any bet.
I’m not trying to get in on the betting, but it seems you’ve left yourself without a win condition – you can only lose, because you say it ‘will never fail.’
So…I guess I’ve gotta ask: How’re you going to win a bet that open-ended?
At least, not that we’re aware of. They were sparse with details on the new LS segment, after all. We’re also not aware of whether our Turrets will even be able to attack Tequatl, as they have been incapable of doing so for quite some time, but that’s something else that makes the devs seem to be ignoring us.
So, now that Tequatl has been properly announced as the focus of the next living story, a thought struck me: Will Engineer Turrets attack him?
I’ve posted the query on the Tequatl boards, but I doubt I’ll get a response for a while. Just a heads-up.
And if the answer turns out to be ‘no,’…well, then I guess I won’t be doing this Living Story at all, not that it’s likely to matter to anyone.
As a Turret-using Engineer, I’ve compiled a list of issues involving Turrets. One of the first bugs on the list was the issue of Engineer Turrets not targeting World Bosses like the Fire Elemental, Tequatl, Claw of Jormag, and the Shatterer.
Note, if you will, that two names on that list are World Bosses explicitly stated to have been adjusted.
The devs haven’t said anything about whether the bug has been fixed, but I’ve seen a couple mentions of a stream – so maybe you folk will know.
So. Does anybody know if Engineer Turrets will attack Tequatl or the other World Bosses?
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Turret overcharges activate on the next iteration of the firing cycle of the turret. As such, only the Healing Turret will activate its Overcharge without an enemy nearby, because most turrets just don’t run their firing cycle if they’re not attacking.
The Acidic Elixirs trait is also Toolbelt-focused.
That said – I really would like more Toolbelt traits. Other than a vague “More of these would be neat,” though, I got nothin’.
Alright, I’m going to go ahead and suggest some servers. I’ll be suggesting Highs and Very Highs, for visibility to the masses. There is no particular rhyme or reason beyond that for choosing these servers (mostly, they’ll be chosen because they’re easy to write and remember).
European High target: Ring of Fire
European Very High target: Aurora Glade
American High target: Anvil Rock
American Very High target: Crystal Desert (This one was chosen because it is my home server.)
Any objections to these, aside from ‘But X is my home server?’
They’ve been intending to put Ascended gear in for a while now.
That said, you’re essentially asking “Is it intentional for Ascended weapons to be better than Exotic weapons,” which…well, do I really need to spell out how silly of a question that is?
I don’t use Kits at all, so no, not for me.
I’m enjoying the Traveler runes – I was originally going to use the Divinity Runes, but I am a lover of mobility, and the 25% speed boost was too tempting to pass up.
Don’t regret the choice a bit.
Hahah. That could be interesting. Would certainly make it easy to identify people involved.
Be nice, but the staff won’t dedicate the manpower to even doing that much. Too busy fancying up the Warrior, Norn and Humans.
Dear Charr Legions,
We Engineers are going to be holding a rally in Lion’s Arch, in protest of having less manpower devoted to fixing issues (both cosmetic and mechanical) due to having fewer players in the Engineer class…which may well be preventing more people from playing it, leading to a self-perpetuating “Let’s look somewhere else” machine.
I could go on a rant about this, but I’d really rather just get to the point.
So, without further ado…
I’d like to ask the Charr Legions to attend the rally, as it appears we have the same problem.
- When: 9/17/2013; At present, it’s essentially intended as an all-day thing, with people coming and going as they please.
- But GTAV releases that day: GTAV’s release should not cause an issue in getting the staff’s attention – Anet staff will still be working, in order to hotfix issues, and surely enough of the playerbase to make a showing won’t be playing GTAV on their PCs.
- Where: Lion’s Arch, possibly Mystic Forge. We haven’t selected target servers, so feel free to make suggestions.
For further information, the original thread regarding the subject of the rally is here.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/The-first-annual-Hobo-sack-protest-rally/first#post2788540
Likewise. This is getting stupid.
GTAV’s release might draw those with the day off away, but there’s something about patches that seems to have slipped out of mind:
Hotfixes.
This will be a big patch, involving actual changes (balance, mostly, but there will be some bugs and polish to be done). As such, there is an inevitability of emergent bugs – that is to say, something will break, and they will need to hotfix something. Maybe the devs won’t be playing, but they will be working.
And, due to the inevitability of hotfixes…they will have a closer eye on the bug reports than usual, to see if there’s something wrong with their content.
As such, there will be some poor sap who has to page through bug report after bug report – who would probably notice if all Engineers in the Rally flooded the /bug command with a subject-line about how Back Items clip through Kits (because that’s actually a bug) and an actual message that explains A ) the bug, and B ) the purpose of the rally.
Each /bug takes a screenshot, and with enough reports, the onlooker will eventually take a look…only to see Lion’s Arch, positively stuffed to the gills with Engineers. We might not be spotted by the devs who would be playing, but we might get that looker talking, we might get the attention of whoever’s keeping an eye on server health…
Short version is, I don’t see a problem with GTAV’s release – because somebody will have to be working. We’ve got less chance of being spotted by the playing devs, anyway, if we’re on a low-pop server.
Looking over the servers, I notice Medium is the lowest population rating; I suggest that we try to wedge as many people into one of the Medium servers as we can, and then cram into a High server if we bring it high enough, with Very High after that. Thoughts?
Edit: Also, I’ve gone ahead and asked the Charr Legions to join the rally. With luck, they’ll provide more numbers and provide suggestions on target servers.
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The next balance patch is supposed to be the 17th, I think. I doubt we’ll see anything of substance, but they’ve had a kittening long time to work on it.
Actually crashing a server, while it would probably get somebody banned, would likely only get the instigators banned – myself, and Arkham Creed. Personally, if that’s what it took to make them realize that while we might not be a majority of the playerbase, we’re enough to require attention, I’d be willing to accept a ban.
Agreed. If that’s what it takes, that’s what it takes. I’ll enjoy my time off relaxing and basking in the knowledge that Arena Net wouldn’t be able to deny the problem any longer.
First, let’s try the rally, though. I’ll post about it on the Charr boards once we know what server we’re doing it on; both us and the Charr are being deprioritized on the basis of numbers, so I feel it’s a good plan to get both our groups together.
Engineers have a strong enough throwing arm to out-range a Mortar.
There is no explanation beyond “Yeah, you’re just supposed to use Kits for combat and your Weapons for…uh…utility.”
The Hobosack overriding back items and Legendaries is something that should have been changed months ago – every new release that includes back items, every overhaul of Legendary looks, and the eventual addition of more Legendaries benefits every class except for those Engineers who use Kits.
Hopefully, they’d do something like this: Have the kit check whether the Back Item in use is one with a skin (such as the quaggan backpack). If it is, then it checks whether the Show Back Item toggle is On. If so, it puts some manner of alternate-placement thing like the fannypack kit mentioned by Bill Friest. If not, the old Hobosack pops up.
Don’t want the hobosack to override your fancy back item? Turn on Show Back Item.
Happen to actually like the hobosack? Turn off Show Back Item.
The Hobosacks aren’t the only reason we’ll be protesting, though – we’ll be protesting, when you get down to it, because our problems aren’t addressed because there’s less of us than there are of the other classes…which aren’t plagued with bugs and cosmetic troubles. I don’t know about anybody else, but I’d have second thoughts about starting a character of a class with almost twenty bugs on a single category of skills, who couldn’t even see the fancy back item they earned or bought, or the Legendary they might spend six months grinding for, if they were using the only skillset so influential that people think of it as the class mechanic.
But there’s less of us than the other classes, and they’d rather focus on what there’s more of.
Actually crashing a server, while it would probably get somebody banned, would likely only get the instigators banned – myself, and Arkham Creed. Personally, if that’s what it took to make them realize that while we might not be a majority of the playerbase, we’re enough to require attention, I’d be willing to accept a ban.
I’d also like to suggest that Engineers boycott the Gem Store until they address at least the cosmetic issues. Bugs, those might have a logical reason there’s a problem, but they’ve never committed the manpower to fix the cosmetics to begin with.
How are you to concentrate magnificence if you don’t eliminate the submagnificent?
Pretty good question.
I’m sure one of the devs will be around to say “Hey, yeah. We read the threads, we just don’t have the time to reply to them all. Don’t worry, we remember you!” and then we won’t see them again until the end of October, if then.
Or Bill Friest will say something about spitballing ideas about handling Kits and Back Items, Colin Johanson will tell us the resources for making Legendaries cosmetically worth it for Kit-users are being directed to more important things (oh, he won’t say that they’re more important, but that’s what he’ll mean), or maybe they’ll completely ignore us some more after they nerf one of the things our class relies on and ignore the bugs afflicting a quarter of our skills – or maybe that one guy will pop in and tell us they’re working fine, because the script looks okay.
As for whether they remember that we exist in terms of ‘classes to buff/nerf/neither,’ I’m really not sure. They ignore our feedback, though I’m pretty sure it’s mostly been “Yo, will you kittening fix these godkitten bugs, you kittenknuckles?” for a while more than any actual ‘balance’ concerns. Having to post about one of our traits being bugged on the sPvP boards before anyone bothered to acknowledge it, after having a thread-a-month on these boards for it, has pretty well abolished the idea of the devs paying attention to our boards and feedback, in my eyes.
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We could well turn it into a monthly thing – or we could make a day of it, to accommodate for schedules.
Edit: I mentioned this to a guildmate of mine, who will also be joining the rally. He suggests that we see if we can get the discontented population of the Charr (apparently they’re kitten ed about bad armor skin jobs) in on this.
I’m inclined to think it’s a good idea – the more folk we get, the more impact it’ll have.
Edit2: Having just watched the segment of the Livestream where the devs went “Yeah, they’re a lesser-played race, so we’re not putting a lot of manpower toward fixing the issues,” I’m pretty sure asking the Charr to get in on this would be a good idea – we’re both in the same situation of having wonky looks as a result of being deprioritized on the basis of what percent of the population we are.
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Making more of our traits and stuff be triggered by/interact with the toolbelt would be pretty great, I think.
An automated Mortar turret would be pretty cool – maybe have the autoattack be the #1 skill, and the Overcharge would be the concussion barrage, with a bunch of Blast Finishers (it is an Elite’s Overcharge, after all).
Not sure how to handle its targeting, though – that’s one I’d especially want functioning effectively, preferably either with the attacks centered on me or my target.
That said, I also like this Teleporter Turret idea.
Remember, remember!
The seventeenth of November,
The Gunpowder treason and plot;
I know of no reason
Why the Gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot!You know what? If this hobosack crakitten till an issue by the time November rolls around, then every Engineer should put on their most eye-catching backpack, the Bomb or Grenade Kits, and blast the kitten out of Lion’s Arch.
Girlfriend also suggests all of us dressing in the same set of armor, preferably dark-colored, with masks, while doing it.
If either of these things A ) happen and B ) work to get the Hobosack issue fixed, I’d also like a turret rally to be considered.
Seconded. Also I’d suggest using the throw mine skill and its tool belt. We all gather around in the same server, scatter our mines, and right when the server resets……simultaneous detonation.
Heck, we might even crash the server. I doubt it, but that would certainly get noticed.
Now that would surely be something.
Remember, remember!
The seventeenth of November,
The Gunpowder treason and plot;
I know of no reason
Why the Gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot!
You know what? If this hobosack crakitten till an issue by the time November rolls around, then every Engineer should put on their most eye-catching backpack, the Bomb or Grenade Kits, and blast the kitten out of Lion’s Arch.
Girlfriend also suggests all of us dressing in the same set of armor, preferably dark-colored, with masks, while doing it.
If either of these things A ) happen and B ) work to get the Hobosack issue fixed, I’d also like a turret rally to be considered.
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Hey wait let’s be smart about this lets all meet up in black gates server and spam in lions arch. Most populated server demands most eyes by people in arenanet.
Most populated server also means less space for guests. If you think Black Gate has a large enough native engineer population to get noticed then by all means go there. I think it would be wiser to flood a lower population server, and hopefully bump it up to full. That kind of sudden population spike will be a lot more noticeable than a very-high pop server becoming full for the millionth time.
I second this – they probably aren’t going to see it with their own eyes, but a low-pop server spiking would certainly spur somebody to say something about it.
Overflow issues: Handled easily enough; if you’re in an overflow, either start a secondary rally, or try another server. People will be in the overflow if we get enough people in on it, so we might as well explain the issue to them.
Timezones: Perhaps arrange a couple separate rallies, to allow everyone interested in this to participate – or just start it, and everyone comes when they please. I know I’ll be camped out probably from when I get up to when I go to bed, and my girlfriend’s Engineer will be, too (she’ll actually be at work, but she wanted to participate so I’ll mostly just make sure she doesn’t get disconnected).
Possible alternate locations: I’m sure a pack of people with hobosacks, letting off Kit attacks to show the clipping errors, /crying, /disagreeing and /threatening in between protest songs and rally chants will be noticeable, particularly if it’s a large enough crowd to force folk into the overflow – and if we get all the Engineers who’re disappointed with hobosacks and Kit interaction with back items in on this, people will be in the overflow.
That said, yeah, it might be a good idea to consider other locations – but what other places are frequented by enough people? Perhaps Rata Sum, around the SAB?
Once we have this a bit more organized, it would probably be wise to have cryers to alert those who don’t use the forums. I’ll certainly volunteer for that on Crystal Desert.
I must admit, I’m concerned as to whether we’re considered a Condition Spam class – with 4/5 of one of our Pistol skills inflicting Conditions, one of our Rifle skills doing so, and Conditions being a large part of most of our Kits (in fact, I think all Kits involve Conditions to some extent), as well as one of the only things Turrets scale to…
If they nerf Turrets as part of this, I might actually just go make a Warrior, since they actually seem to listen to feedback from them.
My Guardian girlfriend is going to train up her Engineer for this. I’ll be there, too.
Interesting how exactly the same they were. Kinda demonstrates that downscaling works, but only really when naked.
It’s also worth noting that this was a Power measurement. Were I to test it with a full set of ’zerker’s gear on, with no ranks in Explosives, the result would be the same, as Turrets don’t scale to gear except for the purposes of Conditions, Healing, and Boons.
Maybe this’ll get them to finally actually set it up so that Kits scale to whatever weapons are being used by the player. Otherwise, this is idiocy – on their part, I mean. ‘Oh, yeah, we didn’t mean to do that. We’ll just go ahead and undo it…don’t mind us…’ and not a word of explanation as to why.
Testing the inaccurate downleveling. Neither character used had any Explosives trait points, and I stripped them of all armor, trinkets and weaponry before performing the test to ascertain that any results would be accurate.
Level 80 downscaled to Level 6. Rifle Turret Tooltip says: 120 damage. Target: Level 5 Flame Legion Axe Fiend.
Results: 130 on first shot, 33 on all subsequent shots.
Level 6, at level 6. Rifle Turret Tooltip says: 120 damage. Target: Level 5 Flame Legion Axe Fiend.
Results: 130 on first shot, 33 on all subsequent shots.
Unless somebody else can confirm that bug, I’m just going to be over here being glad I didn’t just confirm Bug #20.
It’s all context. In the context of the Ranger, they’ve been nerfed, because now they can’t potentially have their spirits up forever by cyclical summoning. And I guess they had CC-vulnerability added to the spirits, but nobody seems all that concerned about that.
However, a chunk of that nerf makes their spirits do something our turrets have always done, and so we consider the 25-second cooldown a buff because the context we have for things like the spirits is our turrets.
Really, we could pretty much be saying “Welcome to our world.”
If nobody else has tested that by tomorrow, I will. Actually already have a second Engineer.
Things to possibly be considered, however, for anyone who decides to do this:
Traits can influence the power of your turrets. If you’re using a build with lots of points in Explosives, your turrets will have much more Power, and this might throw off the results.
I’m pretty sure nothing’s going to happen with turrets, sad to say. They were broken at launch and every single patch for them so far has fixed one issue and introduced another. Even today they’re still broken, as a developer somehow managed to make it so turrets are wrongly affected by downscaling. If you’re level 80 and you deploy a turret in a level 10 zone, you end up deploying a level 10 turret that ALSO gets its stats reduced due to downscaling, so it ends up being worthless.
…wait, so you think the fact that turrets are affected by downscaling is a bug?
Personally, I’m pretty sure that’s an intended effect. Doesn’t make sense for them to not be affected, after all. Is there some kind of secondary stat-reduction that they then undergo? If so, how did you discover this?
What I’m sure isn’t an intended effect:
The on-placement shot of a turret is not affected by downleveling, and thus hits like a truck. It’s also not affected by Rifled Turret Barrels, but that has nothing to do with downleveling.