Guild Wars 2

Because of power creep. Look a buff to other classes is effectively a nerf to yours anyway.

Then you have all the PvE where all of a sudden mobs and bosses go down easily because everyone has a new mean of power.

Warriors were over buffed to get them to be playable again. Kudos to ANet for being bold. But now warriors need to be sensible and realize that ANet chose to go fast and far and needs to claw back some of the excess.

Trust me, you wouldn’t have wanted to wait 6-8 months to have 4 patches with small incremental buffs so you FINALLY would be playable again.

You can’t buff every class and not break the game.

The trick with the engineer is that there is no “one thing” to do to remain standing up versus taking a dirt nap.

In other words, we have great abilities to dodge, blind, stealth, weaken, retaliation etc. etc. The hardest thing about surviving as an engineer is knowing what to use when. Other classes have a much simpler (though not necessarily more effective) sustain.

Initially, I think all engineers go thru the phase of “how in the heck to I avoid dying”. But, you will get it.

Why are there 20 warriors? Because it is effective.
Why are there so many guardians? Because AOE stability works wonders in zergs (but may be just fine in 5v5s).

The fact there is such a thing as a hammer train suggests that the skill is OP. Comments of “well if you got hit by 20 of anything. . . .” Ok, when was it NOT a hammer train and say a 20 engineer grenade train? Or an Ele or Mesmer train?
Nope, it is always the hammer or warrior train because there is something very broken about the ability WHEN you have large numbers on each side.

You miss the point.
Warriors were easy kills.
Now warriors get easy kills.
Warriors can be beat (any class can) but the level of effort is higher given how it was buffed.

The warrior needed rapid buffing and should appreciate that it got that buffing and that it was rapid.
But, given it was a rapid set of buffs, does it really come as a surprise that the pendulum swung too far in the other direction? Would you really have preferred if all your changes came over 6-8 months to make them perfectly “balanced”? Isn’t clawing back some of the extremes still going to put you in a just fine position?

Warriors are hardly the problem for condition engineers but that doesn’t negate the fact that for most of the game, the warrior has gotten too many buffs and too few remaining weaknesses. This came BECAUSE you needed a triage.

This is the exact same thing I would ask they do for eles and rangers. Fast buff then pare them back when you really see what is OP.

The only thing I ask is that they BE BOLD.
Quickly buff the classes that are falling into disrepair and lack of use.
Quickly nerf classes which were quickly buffed (but over buffed) like the warrior.
Accept a fast boil of ire versus the slow but long boil that comes if you do little.

Focus on the ranger to get it playable again.
Focus on the warrior to get it fair again.

Let’s be objective for a bit (or at least try to be).

The warrior was in a miserable place.
The choice was to incrementally buff the class or get it very quickly to be useful.
The right choice was made being buff it quickly.
When you buff a class quickly, you often wind up with too much power or unintended consequences etc.
You need to be as quick about readjusting (nerfing) it back to the mean.
But human nature comes in.
Warriors who “unwrapped” their presents don’t want to give them back.
But the other choice would have been to buff a class that was pretty horrible over 6 months+ to “get it right the first time”.
God help us all if that “human nature” results in the pendulum swinging to “small incremental buffs” for the ranger or elementalist.
If you want to see these classes buffed quickly, then you must press the warrior class to accept the very reasonable need for nerfs now to keep this much faster model of balance on the table.

Well, nerfing is anything but the laziest way to handle a situation. Take away any child’s toy and you will more actively have to defend why than just buying a similar toy for their sibling.

Generally, the right way to balance is to QUICKLY get a class that is getting to uselessness (e.g. Warrior pre-buff, ranger etc) buffed THEN shave it to the right size.
Much like you start with a big block of clay to sculpt.

Human nature gets in the way. You got the far overpowered buffs and remember a time you were underpowered. How likely are you to want to give them back to achieve more balance? Mind you, compared to where you started, you will be fine. . . but once a toy has been unwrapped. . . . .

If anything, the approach of buff fast and nerf down is the least lazy way to manage class balance and has the shortest timeline.

Just got done spending a few days as a decap engineer.
They are very easy to beat, utterly annoying if you don’t prescriptively beat them in one or two ways, and otherwise useless to their teams.

1. Kill them at range quickly. They can’t run back fast enough to the far spawn point.
2. Take them out on the journey TO the decap point (this is their greatest vulnerability).
3. Push THEM around. They are quite easy to decap themselves as they have miserable stability.

Overall though, the builds are fairly lame. But they do take quite a bit of skill. The sheer amount of combinations you really need and timing to play it well is quite a bit more than “skillless”. That it is hard to counter (at least to avoid the initial point going neutral) there is little question. Frankly, they lack anything else of real value. In Tpvp a single engineer that is decap build is OP. In hot join if you get 2 or more, your team is at a real disadvantage TAKING the other points.

The fact that everyone is posting their own topic about the subject expresses the depth and breadth of the frustration at such an obvious issue and its need to be addressed. It is important to have so many posts for the simple reason that the warrior community (having been easy mode for a while) is large. Clearly, the choice to make adequate nerfs will be met with resistance there. So, it is important to see that while the player base that detests how OP warriors are is fragmented generally, it comes together quite nicely when asked what class needs toned down.

There is a high velocity of tax returns around the 1st Q of each year in the United States with spikes near April 15th.

Now, is there a high delight that comes with that high velocity?

The delight you have established by means of what you call “the economy” of the game and the mode of play crafting has become increasingly polarizing to the community around the issue of character progression and forced playstyles (crafting).

The “economy” artificially creates demand for otherwise “useless” items in an attempt to create more stickiness (goal and aspiration) than frustration (just quitting or giving up on the goal).

Ascended in crafting was a mistake at least as implemented. Most choices that polarize a community when you have multiple core segments (PvE, light WvW, PvP etc etc etc) historically works to your disadvantage. I suspect your crafting first community is one of the smallest micro clusters of your population if history repeats itself.

I view the decision as a short term narcotic (when there was a lack of real market competition) with long term consequences making it much easier to transition out of the game (as new waves of offerings go to market). It would be wise to heed the OPs thoughts of moving this to cosmetic crafting and dramatically lower the “fee” for the best gear in PvP for that community of users that simply will abhor crafting no matter what you do. It is telling that none of the upcoming title releases of competitors so far in betas have made a decision to demand crafting. Perhaps, that alone is worth thinking about.

There are a large number of “on heal” procs. Med kits is the very best for those type of procs as you can get into and out of it quickly and often.

Warriors are extremely OP because they simply have every feature of the game that counts on them. This allows them to maintain high offense and defense at the same time.

They were supposed to melt on account of conditions, which was their known weakness at the beginning of the game. But, ANet for very good reason gave them condition cleaners because the class was too underpowered without them.

The problem is that other areas were not toned down as that was the one key weakness. So, they need a major reduction in something likely healing. A Warrior should be kill or be killed.

Decap Engineer would be the only OP build out of dozens of engineer builds and only for sPvP. Engineer is pretty much the standard of being balanced (outside this one obscure build).

Ah, I would reduce the duration on Elixir F from 3 seconds (swiftness) to 1 second of stability.

But if still too OP, so be it. I would be happy enough if glue shot and glue bomb got stability added

Couple of changes after reflection:

1. E-Gun Elixir F should provide stability not swiftness to any allies it hits.
Your hit by glue and go faster? Strange.

2. Glue should provide stability to anyone in it (friend or foe)
a. You could use it for allies to get stability.
b. This would keep it from buffing decap engineers
c. You still would have enemy with a movement debuff.
d. Now all glue can be played offensively or defensively.

I propose:

1. All grenades skills throw 3 grenades.
2. Each grenade does .25X of the current damage of Grenadier
3. Grenadier adds a 4th grenade and 300 range (essentially doing the same damage as it does now but with 4 grenades).

It would be a 25% buff to damage generally but would not noticeably improve max damage traited.
It would be a buff to the number of targets you could potentially hit.
It fits given the more difficult nature of throwing the grenades in WvW and PvP v PvE.

Bingo Dalanor.

Warriors need to go back to fearing getting stacks of conditions on them. Their counter should be kill the darn condition spammer fast. Now mind you, it shouldn’t be that warriors have no condition cleansing, but it should be a great weakness for them.

Lalangamena:

In many games what you say is true. In GW2, you have dodging which effectively is a gap closer (you miss my spike ranged damage) and there are way too many gap closers to effectively keep melee away from ranged damage. A warrior doesn’t enter a fight with a ranger at half health for example.

Likewise, the game lacks enough crowd control for what you are suggesting (as many characters rather than seeing it as essential for ranged v melee damage see CC as frustrating and taking control from them). Classic melee v ranged argument.

So, the normal reasons for stat imbalances just don’t play out well here. Ranged in general is UP to melee in this game which is a bad thing.

Warriors need to go back to being very susceptible to condition damage.
I would focus on nerfing their ability to cleanse.
Warriors should do physical and eat condition.

Well, on telegraphing, you don’t take a damage spike from conditions, it is DOT. There is good reason why the big physical spike is telegraphed.
The counter for conditions is monitoring what is on you (they all show up) and cleansing.

Equalizing condition removal is a bad idea. Some classes are designed to get chewed up by conditions as they have all sorts of other benefits. Warriors were originally designed to be very susceptible to conditions but they also have high armor, high dps, high stats, high heals etc. Then ANet mucked up the balance making them less susceptible to condition damage.

Trash mobs never belonged in WvW. The idea that you could get “stacks” without actually fighting anyone I don’t think was how the skills were balanced.

I’m all for removing them in WvW too.

I like having a map where attrition matters.
I suppose it just depends on your play style though.

I find lots of small fights on my way back to the blob (which is even more fun than the main fight IMHO).

I have always thought that the Mesmer should have far more limited stealth options than the thief (more like a fast blink).

I agree on toning down Mesmer’s access to stealth but would not just change stealth as a mechanic especially for thieves (outside limiting perma stealth).

Please let me know what servers and what guilds kick members for being killed by a ranger. I would very much like to spend a little time there.

Seriously, a ranger can kill any class as can any class kill a ranger. You are a fool to think that you never could die to a ranger. You may kill a ranger far more than they kill you, but if I understand correctly, the rule is if you EVER die to a ranger.

I’ll take that bet any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Rangers are not NO Powered. They are VERY MUCH Under-Powered.

Classes that lack condition removal were meant to have a harder time conditions vs say direct damage. This is also how the warrior should be put back to par.

If anything, I would look at WHICH condition gets cleansed. Would have to crunch numbers, but it could be the largest tick, most ticks, etc. Vs last one. The problem is the number of conditions you can take. However, if you nerf all conditions, the classes relying on one or two main conditions get hammered (opps wrong class).

Balance to the middle.

There are aspects of going “stealth extreme” which are silly for thieves. Such as when you essentially can perma stealth and have a minor Zerg chasing you.

Stealth in general is fine. It could be tweaked to do less base damage but ignore armor to make it more of a melee (warrior, guardian) counter.

Physical damage is fine and bursts. It’s counter is armor.
Condition damage is damage over time and supposed to be doing just what it is. It’s counter is cleansing.

Not sure why people think condition damage is a problem. BTW, I play both.

Perplexity runes are a bit over the top. I suspect they won’t be after the patch.

Classic complaint. Power build hits like a truck. Condition builds are damage over time and can be nasty if you don’t cleanse them.

That is the way it is supposed to be.

Seems we should get stealth when standing still (like a camoflauge) which would be long lasting. Once we go into combat, it should break.

Our ability to get a bit of stealth when fleeing works well enough with Hunter’s Shot IF they would remove the requirement for hitting the target.

You wouldn’t be getting rid of warriors or guardians at all. You would reduce the rolling of new or FOTM warriors and guardians.

You would encourage warriors and guardians to sometimes play their other classes in WvW.

The rewards justify the decision. Playing against a diverse mix of classes is just more fun for everyone (and I imagine more fun for the warriors and guardians too).

Engineers are one of the most balanced classes. They have a large number of builds all of which are fairly “in the middle” of effectiveness. Decap engineer being the exception but that is a one trick pony build.

Rangers are UP and therefore not really balanced as you would put it.

Guardians are on target too.

I really like the idea of having each set of armor have different advantages and disadvantages (faster cooldowns for light etc) but would not think that allowing all classes to use any armor would work at this point.

What is the cost right now after getting to 500 in crafting of making armor and weapons for an engineer?

Engineer
1. Move kit damage to ascended gear levels
2. Make Turrets “Assist” Player using his target
3. Combine traits in Explosions and Firearms to allow greater build diversity
4. Give Gadgets a second toolkit effect.
5. Toolkit abilities should remove 1 condition.
6. Standing in glue should give engineer stability.

Condition damage is supposed to be the counter to your 25k hp 3k armor build. That is precisely what it was meant for.

No, Atherakhia what would happen is that rangers would be first in line (not first in first out) in WvW queues assuming they were the least populated class on the map.

Warriors, assuming they were the highest populated class on the map, would have to wait longer. They always could go to EOTM.

In other words, the queue would look at class scarcity versus just your position in line.

There are too many players playing too few classes.
Warriors and Guardians are overpopulated (pvp and WvW)
Mesmers and Rangers are underpopulated.

Increasing the desirability of underplayed classes should be a key theme of the balance patch as should be reducing the desireability of overplayed classes.

Warriors have no real weaknesses. Sure they can be beat, but they can bring anything to the table from stability to highest armor to hps to high dps to. . . . .

Warriors are like the game rock, paper, scissors when scissors and rock decide to merge and take on paper.

Dear Viking,

What happens when rock and scissors are on the same character? Then, if I were paper I might want those two to be separated.

Hence. . .

Buff Rangers
Nerf Warriors

Move everyone to the middle currently occupied by engie/ranger/Mesmer.
+100 Agree.

Well, I didn’t enjoy how easy it was to get knocked off the map (and I am an engineer fully able to knock you off).
I did immensely enjoy the open feeling of the map and playing with other servers.
I enjoyed the intensity of the combat. You never were without a fight.
In my limited time, it was a good mix of small roam and zerg. That will change I am sure.

Just a few reactions.

This is obnoxious. But the fix could be worse. Do you want to NOT be able to blow up bridges?

I see as many problems with just blowing up enemy bridges, UNLESS you have to claim the bridge.

At the extremes of building, the decap engineer can be obnoxious if not outright OP.
In most builds outside of PvP, you would never survive with such a build.
The premise is I can knock you off a point and have a huge number of immobilizes if that is how I want to spec. I won’t kill you easily of course, but I will decap.

Some of the largest offending traits are things like accelerant packed turrets, which is great for a new player in PvE and just fine in WvW, but is ripe for overkill in PvP.

On the other hand, the decap engineer has a critical weakness in that he can easily be “decapped” from a point by having almost certainly no stability. Just toss him off. Some classes can’t and that is frustrating for them. You play more Sumo style pushing off point than killing.

Some tweaks to taking EVERYTHING that can cc or knockback might be in order for this mode of play. Overall, it is about avoiding the cumulative effect. But, it isn’t game breaking nor is it unbalanced in any mode that is not PvP so gentle tweaking makes more sense.

To promote class balance (the number of players of each class participating), I propose that any WvW queue prioritize the wait list based on class.

If there are way more warriors playing in WvW and you want to get on a map, bring out your Mesmer, Ranger or Engineer.

The game plays better when there is a diversity of classes on.

To promote class balance (the number of players of each class participating), I propose that any WvW queue prioritize the wait list based on class.

If there are way more warriors playing in WvW and you want to get on a map, bring out your Mesmer.

In addition to balancing professions based on power, there is an even more critical issue.

Currently, there is not a relative balance of class participation in spvp and wvw.

In PvP, I bet the number of times the last class you have left in your achievement (kill one of each class) is the same 3 under-represented classes more often than not.
Likewise, in WvW, the population of guardians and warriors seems to be about 50% BUT there are 8 CLASSES.

The game is more enjoyable when you face all the different classes of the game.

Therefore, a key component to buffing and nerfing should be overall population of a class and its participation in the various modes of gameplay PvE, WvW, and PvP.

You can do things to promote class numeric balance that would be different than profession balance. For example, it might be easier to level up 2x xp a Mesmer and harder to level up a Warrior. You might provide greater WXP for the 3 classes that are underrepresented in that game mode and reduce WxP for the 2 classes that are over represented. You might increase glory for the 3 classes that are under-represented in PvP. Etc.

The number of people playing a particular class in a certain game mode should be a critical indicator of profession balance.

Well, I asked why engineers were not more popular to get at the very issue at hand.
You want to have class parity in numbers to promote general class synergy and multiple play styles. In short, it is a better game when all classes are somewhat balanced in numbers. That is true of any game that has classes.

I certainly don’t think that the engineer needs any significant buffing (though getting AI to work for rangers and turrets would certainly add something back to the game).

You CERTAINLY can be OP and under-represented or UP and over-represented. But, in both cases, you want to improve the desirability of one class and discourage FOTM creation of new members of the other class. You don’t want to hurt your core members of either class.

Too often you get a class that has too large of a population because it seems more user friendly. Warrior is easy to play with little skill (not that you can’t play it very well with skill). Similarly, you might find that the reason rangers are so popular and UP is because they too are easier in theory to level up. On the other hand, you may find that eles, mesmers and engineers are frustrating in quality of life getting used to either.

You can design quality of life changes to make these classes easier to play or make classes which have become a bit too easy, harder.

In the case of the warrior, I would suggest it become a bit harder to play focusing on survivorability.

In the case of the Ele or Engineer (don’t really know Mesmer), I would focus on simple ways to avoid having a numb hand from all the buttons you have to push to make it work.

You don’t have to be as dramatic in the changes to move populations. You could even make it such that you could get 2x experience leveling a new Mesmer but only .75X experience leveling a new warrior or guardian or give a boost to WxP for under-played classes or glory. That way, you could even focus on specific game modes to encourage players to diversify what classes they play. If you find that medium or light armor classes are generally under-represented, change drop rates.

Look at it this way. There is a monthly award in spvp for kill variety (one of each class). How many times do you bet that your last kill is one of the 3 least played classes and pretty predictably you are having to find one?

Similarly, when you look at a zerg in WvW, what percentage are rangers or mesmers? What percentage are warriors and guardians?

Just because I have an engineer, doesn’t mean I only have an engineer nor am obsessed with the engineer. I keep all my character slots filled I would certainly say there are several classes that have worse populations than we do.

Honestly, wouldn’t YOU enjoy the game more if your enemy had broader class and build balance?

First thing I do when I break out of combat is change out to my Air Jordan Rocket Boots to get some distance. I also put them on anytime I am solo and switch them out only when I am about to engage or be engaged.

As an engineer, you should be switching out utilities regularly.
When I roam or am traveling to meet a group, my utilities are quite different than when I am with a small group or a large zerg.