Guild Wars 2

Coconut.7082:

ButterPeanut.9746:

AnariiUK.7409:

ButterPeanut.9746:

AnariiUK.7409:

I find it difficult to agree that torch is overpowered when condi-ranger is already weaker than many other classes.

Players seems to forget that Engineer provides a passive +150 condition damage buff to the area, which easily accounts for upwards of 4k DPS in a condi-subgroup – meaning you only really need to pull 29k personal DPS to keep up with even very good condi-ranger. I’d also argue that it’s about equally difficult to pull 29k on an engi compared to 33k on a condi-ranger.

Furthermore, condi-daredevil just absolutely destroys condi-ranger DPS at most fights and has a very similar rotation.

And lastly, Elementalist can outpace a condi-ranger extremely well at many encounters (VG/Gorse/Sloth/KC/Samarog etc). I don’t believe that you have to be a skilled Elementalist player to beat condi-rangers at VG/Sloth/KC/Samarog either.

I don’t join many pug raids, but I consistantly see condi-ranger being hamfisted into roles that make no sense just because it’s the flavour of the month right now. For example, joining a Deimos and having condi-rangers sit in the middle, ranging the boss with shortbow.

Basically, easy or not, how can a class be overpowered when it isn’t even best-in-slot for any encounter in the game right now?

I would argue 1 condi ranger is best in slot for VG due to entangle on the seekers. It won’t out DPS tempest due to low armor, but if the speed record on a boss includes the build I would argue that it is best in slot.

That is a very fair point. Right now the fastest VG kill does make use of a condi-ranger.

I do have a gut feeling that it would be slightly more optimal to have the druids running entangle and instead run with 4 Ele’s for DPS. But that might cost some time at the split phase. I’d be really interested to see if 2:30 is possible to beat these days!

You are likely correct in that simply due to the fact that GoTL is way easier to keep up now versus when the 2:30 record was recorded. You likely don’t need the elite glyph for GoTL uptime and could probably use 2 condi druids with entangle. That being said, 2:30 is no slouch with a condi ranger so either way I’d consider condi ranger “meta/best in slot” on VG

So you have 3 Tempests in that composition and yet you consider condi Ranger “meta/best in slot”, because kitten logic.
He is “best in slot” while being out-DPSed by EVERY SINGLE Power DPS class out there? Which includes: Tempest, Guardian, Thief, even Power Eng!
And FYI, only 2 Entagles are needed in a “speedclear” tactic, you can do just as good with Engi.

How is saying that condi ranger is “best in slot” on VG because it was used in the fastest kill yet to date “kitten logic”? It is the only logic! As long by best we mean fastest. If “best at” means something other than fastest in this context, then the discussion is completely different.

Also, power DPS is pretty irrelevant for that 4th DPS slot because you likely need a 3rd condi damage(DPS, condi war, condi druid, chrono) in order to kill red fast enough without significantly delaying the split phase. This would result in a slower overall kill time.

Until someone beats the current record without using condi ranger, which could very well happen, its best in slot on VG!

CptAurellian.9537:

In raids, simply everything should affect 10 people. That would solve quite some issues.

While true, it would also trivialize all old raid encounters even more.

AnariiUK.7409:

ButterPeanut.9746:

AnariiUK.7409:

I find it difficult to agree that torch is overpowered when condi-ranger is already weaker than many other classes.

Players seems to forget that Engineer provides a passive +150 condition damage buff to the area, which easily accounts for upwards of 4k DPS in a condi-subgroup – meaning you only really need to pull 29k personal DPS to keep up with even very good condi-ranger. I’d also argue that it’s about equally difficult to pull 29k on an engi compared to 33k on a condi-ranger.

Furthermore, condi-daredevil just absolutely destroys condi-ranger DPS at most fights and has a very similar rotation.

And lastly, Elementalist can outpace a condi-ranger extremely well at many encounters (VG/Gorse/Sloth/KC/Samarog etc). I don’t believe that you have to be a skilled Elementalist player to beat condi-rangers at VG/Sloth/KC/Samarog either.

I don’t join many pug raids, but I consistantly see condi-ranger being hamfisted into roles that make no sense just because it’s the flavour of the month right now. For example, joining a Deimos and having condi-rangers sit in the middle, ranging the boss with shortbow.

Basically, easy or not, how can a class be overpowered when it isn’t even best-in-slot for any encounter in the game right now?

I would argue 1 condi ranger is best in slot for VG due to entangle on the seekers. It won’t out DPS tempest due to low armor, but if the speed record on a boss includes the build I would argue that it is best in slot.

That is a very fair point. Right now the fastest VG kill does make use of a condi-ranger.

I do have a gut feeling that it would be slightly more optimal to have the druids running entangle and instead run with 4 Ele’s for DPS. But that might cost some time at the split phase. I’d be really interested to see if 2:30 is possible to beat these days!

You are likely correct in that simply due to the fact that GoTL is way easier to keep up now versus when the 2:30 record was recorded. You likely don’t need the elite glyph for GoTL uptime and could probably use 2 condi druids with entangle. That being said, 2:30 is no slouch with a condi ranger so either way I’d consider condi ranger “meta/best in slot” on VG

AnariiUK.7409:

I find it difficult to agree that torch is overpowered when condi-ranger is already weaker than many other classes.

Players seems to forget that Engineer provides a passive +150 condition damage buff to the area, which easily accounts for upwards of 4k DPS in a condi-subgroup – meaning you only really need to pull 29k personal DPS to keep up with even very good condi-ranger. I’d also argue that it’s about equally difficult to pull 29k on an engi compared to 33k on a condi-ranger.

Furthermore, condi-daredevil just absolutely destroys condi-ranger DPS at most fights and has a very similar rotation.

And lastly, Elementalist can outpace a condi-ranger extremely well at many encounters (VG/Gorse/Sloth/KC/Samarog etc). I don’t believe that you have to be a skilled Elementalist player to beat condi-rangers at VG/Sloth/KC/Samarog either.

I don’t join many pug raids, but I consistantly see condi-ranger being hamfisted into roles that make no sense just because it’s the flavour of the month right now. For example, joining a Deimos and having condi-rangers sit in the middle, ranging the boss with shortbow.

Basically, easy or not, how can a class be overpowered when it isn’t even best-in-slot for any encounter in the game right now?

I would argue 1 condi ranger is best in slot for VG due to entangle on the seekers. It won’t out DPS tempest due to low armor, but if the speed record on a boss includes the build I would argue that it is best in slot.

Azoqu.8917:

NikeEU.7690:

Bosses condi ranger isn’t top dps on: cairn, overseer, samarog, deimos, sloth, kc, xera, vg, gorseval, sabetha.

How is this top dps again?

Nike, I totally agree with you on the fact that condi ranger isn’t top DPS on anything and in top guilds it doesn’t matter. But in pugs and lesser groups, the output of a condi ranger laughs at any other class because the damage scales up very quickly compared to the effort put in compared to other DPS classes.

Oh how this has shifted. Previously for PUGs it was tempest or go home, when in reality very few pugs have any idea how to play tempest. Now a build is pretty strong and have a relatively low skill ceiling and that is the new problem!

Over the past year one thing I’ve learned in both PVE and PVP is the builds only go so far. At the meta level (i.e. meta for ele/necro/ranger/engi, etc), no build is bad, players are. The highest dps for your group (pending buffs) is likely the comp where people play the classes that they actually know how to play…not when they default to condi ranger.

The idea that a class cannot fill a “support” role and a DPS role with different builds is absolutely ridiculous. (i.e. condi PS versus condi DPS warrior). In this case, the condi DPS warrior gives up 100% of his support (EA/Banners/might/fury) in order to achieve somewhat acceptable DPS for a DPS role.

What do you expect with future elite specializations? Balance in my mind in the long term is the following:
1. Fill the raid with classes/roles that meet the buffing needs of the group.
2. If you are short on step #1, I hope there are multiple options in the future to meet it. AKA, if you need quickness in a subgroup, maybe something other than chrono can provide that in the future.
3. Fill in DPS roles that meet the needs of the encounter. That could be condi for some, ranged damage for others, etc. More importantly, fill the DPS classes with people who are skilled at playing that class. A dead/bad ele does little to no DPS.

For Xera it also depends on your tanking strategy. Pending your groups DPS, there are two tanking methods that keep Xera near the bloodstone shards for an extended period of time. After you kill the shards boon strip becomes relevant for a short period of time.

On deimos, if you don’t break the first saul he steals you boons. This can obviously be prevented by good mechanics, but if you screw up having boon strip is useful.

Like others have mentioned, chronomancer is the main user of concentration. However there are other more niche builds that can use concentration as well, such as a healing druid and ele.

The next best is pretty much exactly the same, just don’t press F1 when swapping to sword for the last time. Getting the last LB burst is better than swapping to sword early and using a sword burst instead of LB.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

So the question that everyone has to ask is:

At what point does the content become a ‘Player’ issue rather than a ‘Content’ issue?

It’s a player issue if it doesn’t negatively affect the company bottom line and game popularity. Once it starts doing that, it turns into a game issue.

The problem is we will never know if/when that is true. Every single number or stat related to finances simply put that less total money was gained. We have absolutely no way of knowing for certain that it was from lack of gem sales, free to play, HoT open world problems, lack of PvP esports, WvW issues, raids, fractal revamp,etc. There is no way of knowing so everyone should refrain from using it in any argument to support your opinion, because it completely invalidates it.

Sykper.6583:

So the question that everyone has to ask is:

At what point does the content become a ‘Player’ issue rather than a ‘Content’ issue?

Where’s the line? I’m fairly certain each of us in the discussion has a fairly significant difference on where this line is, given how different we see the future of raid content in this game to be.

Just to make it clear, I am absolutely opposed to the concept that it is never the player’s fault that they can’t do the content. There has to be a certain level the developers have to expect from the players in order for content to continue to grow and become interesting, there has to be some level of adaptability.

The answer will obviously have huge bias and variety, but IMO, if the majority of the raid encounters can be completed by less than half of the maximum number of people in a raid, then it is always a player problem. You’re non-meta build is probably fine, but that doesn’t mean you are good enough at it. Cairn was solo’d within a few weeks…just let that sink in.

Blaeys.3102:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Blaeys.3102:

ButterPeanut.9746:

The “meta” part sounds like a balance team problem then?

Without completely watering down and homogenizing every profession and build (which we should never want), balance in a game like this is a pipe dream. It will never happen.

That is why the solution has to come from the other side of the equation – the encounters. And, imo, the only real way to do that and still hope to retain any kind of difficulty for min/maxers is through tiers.

The Samarog point – if that encounter is part of the story/experience/etc of the raid, then radically changing difficulty or not offering an option at that fight is probably even worse than 3 easy + 1 difficult fights. It’s basically a big tease saying, you made it this far, but we dont want you to see the end.

No…its saying “You’ve made it this far and we want to see you adapt/improve/change to see the end”. This is exactly what ANET wants, but isn’t what the easy mode crowd wants, which is the disconnect.

Again, it is a matter of perception.

You could just as easily word it “You’ve made it this far, but we want you to change the nature of your character and stop playing the way you most enjoy to see the end.”

Neither is wrong – again, just a matter of your perception and why you play GW2.

Which again, is an argument in favor of multiple difficulty tiers. It is impossible to offer a full and fun experience for such divergent groups in a single game mode. You end up having to water down the content to the level it is no longer challenging for the people looking for challenge (which is the direction they seem to have started toward with the last wing).

I don’t disagree. Another option is to simply remove all incentive for the casual audience to want to raid (i.e. lore)

I don’t think you are victim of this, but per my previous post, I don’t think most people who are “anti easy mode” are because they don’t want to see other players involved. Its more that often those who want an easy mode repeatedly try to play the victim in the situation and it is beyond frustrating to hear it over and over again.

For example: You could just as easily word it “You’ve made it this far, but we want you to change the nature of your character and stop playing the way you most enjoy to see the end.”"

Many “pro easy mode” players (not necessarily you) would interpret that statement as "ANET and other players won’t let me play how I want. Its all their fault, please stop being so toxic. In reality this isn’t true at all. Each player who doesn’t change the nature of their character to adjust to the content is at fault…not ANET. It is a choice that each player makes. If you can’t clear content and you want to, then change. Its always your fault if you can’t do something in this game. Nobody else is responsible but you. You aren’t the victim.

Now, if you want to argue for tired difficulty and your argument is “hey I know i’m stubborn and I don’t want to change my play-style, ANET please cater this content specifically so I can complete it”, then fine! But when requesting something, I simply ask that everyone at least own that they are the reason for the failure to play the content. Not the content itself, not other players, just you.

Blaeys.3102:

ButterPeanut.9746:

The “meta” part sounds like a balance team problem then?

Without completely watering down and homogenizing every profession and build (which we should never want), balance in a game like this is a pipe dream. It will never happen.

That is why the solution has to come from the other side of the equation – the encounters. And, imo, the only real way to do that and still hope to retain any kind of difficulty for min/maxers is through tiers.

The Samarog point – if that encounter is part of the story/experience/etc of the raid, then radically changing difficulty or not offering an option at that fight is probably even worse than 3 easy + 1 difficult fights. It’s basically a big tease saying, you made it this far, but we dont want you to see the end.

No…its saying “You’ve made it this far and we want to see you adapt/improve/change to see the end”. This is exactly what ANET wants, but isn’t what the easy mode crowd wants, which is the disconnect.

Blaeys.3102:

ButterPeanut.9746:

The pure existence of challenge motes has already solved the problem. Whether or not the “activation” of a mote makes the base fight harder, or a hard fight easier is irrelevant.

In fact, the current implementation is actually better for crowd looking for an “easy mote”, where as the motes being shifted to make the fight easier benefits the current raiding community.

If you are going to argue anything, it would be that the normal mode isn’t easy enough, which is clearly an opinion that can’t really be measured by the community.

First, for this to be true, it would need to apply to all bosses in a wing. With the 4th still significantly harder, the story and experience accessibility remain problematic.

Second, as I’ve said before, it isn’t as much about easy as it is about development around – or close to – the meta.

yes the first three are pretty easy if you adhere to the meta – or some facsimile. But, there are still far too many builds and group compositions that have no realistic way to enjoy the content.

Providing the lower difficulty mode isnt about faceroll as much as it is about letting people experience the content without compromising how they love to play their characters.

And again – I realize that experienced raiders can defeat almost any boss on any profession and most builds. That obviously isnt the player group we are talking about here.

So, it isnt quite as simple as you try to make it sound.

The “meta” part sounds like a balance team problem then?

Why does it have to apply to all bosses in the wing? Because the lore is there? What if all the lore stopped at Samarog? Would that still apply? Why don’t we just remove all lore from raids entirely and just fight generic baddies then? Would this still be a problem?

“yes the first three are pretty easy if you adhere to the meta – or some facsimile. But, there are still far too many builds and group compositions that have no realistic way to enjoy the content. "
- My point exactly. It is “easy” but not “easy enough”. Also, I don’t think you can completely ignore the audience. The fact of the matter is that player skill in this game is so spread out and is SOOO much more important for challenging content than builds. The audience you are trying to cater towards likely couldn’t even complete the raids in meta builds, even if all boss attacks did 0 damage until the enrage, simply due to the widespread player skill.

If we are going to create/argue for an easy mode, I’m at least going to be honest and just say we need it not because of builds, meta, group comps, team speak, toxicity, etc, but because the audience who wants to see the lore is so bad at this game that no matter the mathematical odds of success, they still won’t complete it, nor have the desire to do so.

I tend to have scrambled rants to please forgive me on that :P. As you’ve probably notice in other posts, I’m totally okay with the request for easier versions. What I’m extremely tired of is this profound sense that those who “need” an easy mote because ANET, other players, ‘the meta’, etc have decided for them. No! Its always your choice. If you cannot complete the raids because:
1. You choose to not join a guild
2. You choose to play an off meta build, but play it well and don’t get groups
3. You choose to play a meta build and play it terribly
4. You choose to play an off meta build and play it terribly
5. You choose to not join a voice chat and get kicked
6. You choose to join non-training runs for your first attempts at bosses
7. You choose to prioritize real life events over late night raiding (OMG I know right?)
8. <insert any other excuse here>

I’m so tired of folks making these excuses and complaining that its other players or ANETs fault. NO! If you can’t do something in this game, its always your fault. Just own it, and admit that you want an easier version because the choices you’ve made have resulted in you missing the content.

The pure existence of challenge motes has already solved the problem. Whether or not the “activation” of a mote makes the base fight harder, or a hard fight easier is irrelevant.

In fact, the current implementation is actually better for crowd looking for an “easy mote”, where as the motes being shifted to make the fight easier benefits the current raiding community.

If you are going to argue anything, it would be that the normal mode isn’t easy enough, which is clearly an opinion that can’t really be measured by the community.

Blaeys.3102:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Interesting points. Being an engineer in real life, my brain is hardwired to always think about the math and the optimization. In reality. All PVE is math. PVE is simply “kill the creature before it kills you.” The bigger damage numbers you do, the more quickly that happens.

To me, the problem with the “bring whatever play style you want” is that those tend to error on the side of builds where the computer cannot kill you. You rarely hear about folks who never look up a meta build but just happen to pick Zerk/Scholar. More often they want their full solider/rabid builds to be viable (and in reality they are, but like you mentioned I’m not going to really consider what gear qT could use lol).

I can imagine as a developer it is very difficult to design an encounter that is challenging for those who play builds that are offensive and those who want to play builds where you are invincible. Can every fight just have 1 shot mechanics so invincible builds arent invincible? Why even take defensive stats then?

It is also likely that those who played the more offensive/meta builds regularly are simply better players. This is due to the core design of GW2, damage avoidance versus damage mitigation. Being a better player and never getting hit by the AI is the name of the game for gw2, and many of the raiders have been doing this for years. Where as many other games have high unavoidable damage that require a greater mathematical defense on your character in order to survive.

I also never understood the strong desire in this game to be attached to your build/gear. Whether or not you have solders or zerker is just math…It has no feelings towards you. Why have feelings towards it? Like anyone asking you “would you like $10 or $20 for free?” Of course you always pick the better one.

Kind of a scrambled rant, but even in an easy mode I personally feel like it would be a large development challenge to design content that has an appropriate amount of challenge for all of the vast build diversity in this game simply due to how strong damage avoidance is versus building for damage mitigation

First of all, thank you for being open minded and arguing the point in rational manner. That is rarer than most would think.

I understand your points but still believe it is possible. Simply experiment with removing or toning down specific mechanics (primarily any that rely on high dps) and then make that the story or training mote version. With minimal time (probably less than what went into the CM modes we have now in wing 4), I think it could be done.

To the point of watering the fight down to the point where it can’t kill you, I honestly believe that a happy medium can be found – one closer to low/mid level fractals or COE/Arah level dungeons. But even if I’m wrong – and it has be paper thin easy – it would be worth doing (even though, again, I would rather have something in the middle).

Adding to raids in such a way that brings in new blood and opens the experience/story/etc to more casual players is crucial to the success of the game mode, imo.

I agree with you except that sounds like you don’t believe this has already happened. Its impossible to measure, but just based on my play through I would put the first 3 bosses in w4 around a tier 2-tier 3 fractal difficulty. By “difficulty” I mean the mechanical skill of the player required to complete the content and the amount of room for error based on enrage timers and enrage mechanics.

I also don’t think it is unreasonable for the last boss to be more difficult, even in the “easy mode”. Getting “new blood” into the game mode doesn’t mean catering all encounters so that person with “new blood” can change nothing about their build, playstyle, group comp, player skill, etc and still succeed indefinitely. Getting “new blood” into the game mode simply means having enough of a “hook” for the more casual audience to retain and increase their interest in the content. If they have that “hook” down to retain casual players interest and then future encounters are more tightly tuned to require a better group comp, player skill, build, etc…then the “easy mode” was a success.

Blaeys.3102:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Genuine question here. Do you believe that wing 4 has already done this? I do. Except that it’s reverse of what you’ve mentioned. The base difficulty is the “easy mode” and the challenge motes are more difficult.

The differences between this option and what you’ve proposed is actually better for those who want an easier raiding tier.

1. Easy mode being the “normal” versus the “click this to activate easy mode” likely results in better rewards for the easier mode. If you as to activate the easy mode, I doubt ANET would give the same rewards that it currently gives.

2. You don’t have to limit your search for “easy mode” for finding players. By nature it is more straightforward to find groups for the mode that has no additional activation requirement.

If the fights were 100% exactly the same, but the easy mode was activated and the challenge note was base, would we still be having this conversation? I personally think we would simply because I don’t believe the “pro easy mode” community feels wing 4 is easy enough, which I disagree with.

I understand your point (for 3 of the 4 fights in wing 4) – and I think for those three fights, we are close to where we should be – just not quite there. The problem is systemic rather than fight based. The raids are still balanced around the meta (as well they should be), creating a significant disparity between professions in the instance. I realize they are more forgiving, and that the meta isn’t required, but the gulf between top builds and bottom is still significant and limiting.

And, of course, there is still the last fight. Even if the first three could be considered easy mode, players would still be excluded from the story and experience of the wing because of that encounter. In order for your example to work, that fight would need an easier mode as well.

However, I still feel the issue isn’t about purely easy vs hard as much as it is about playstyle and build variety. Those players that enjoy the math of the game – or copying meta builds and rotations – enjoy raids in their current form. But, most players that don’t enjoy that kind of limiting playstyle find them tedious and frustrating.

The idea of tiered difficulty is about offering a less frustrating experience for those players who don’t enjoy min-maxing (and I realize any build can probably beat the raid in the hands of skilled players – that is not what we are talking about here – were talking about an enjoyable experience based on playstyle).

If that can be done without compromising the harder difficulties (which the challenge mote concept shows clearly they should be able to do), then it is silly not to do so.

Interesting points. Being an engineer in real life, my brain is hardwired to always think about the math and the optimization. In reality. All PVE is math. PVE is simply “kill the creature before it kills you.” The bigger damage numbers you do, the more quickly that happens.

To me, the problem with the “bring whatever play style you want” is that those tend to error on the side of builds where the computer cannot kill you. You rarely hear about folks who never look up a meta build but just happen to pick Zerk/Scholar. More often they want their full solider/rabid builds to be viable (and in reality they are, but like you mentioned I’m not going to really consider what gear qT could use lol).

I can imagine as a developer it is very difficult to design an encounter that is challenging for those who play builds that are offensive and those who want to play builds where you are invincible. Can every fight just have 1 shot mechanics so invincible builds arent invincible? Why even take defensive stats then?

It is also likely that those who played the more offensive/meta builds regularly are simply better players. This is due to the core design of GW2, damage avoidance versus damage mitigation. Being a better player and never getting hit by the AI is the name of the game for gw2, and many of the raiders have been doing this for years. Where as many other games have high unavoidable damage that require a greater mathematical defense on your character in order to survive.

I also never understood the strong desire in this game to be attached to your build/gear. Whether or not you have solders or zerker is just math…It has no feelings towards you. Why have feelings towards it? Like anyone asking you “would you like $10 or $20 for free?” Of course you always pick the better one.

Kind of a scrambled rant, but even in an easy mode I personally feel like it would be a large development challenge to design content that has an appropriate amount of challenge for all of the vast build diversity in this game simply due to how strong damage avoidance is versus building for damage mitigation

Blaeys.3102:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Astralporing.1957:

zoomborg.9462:

There are games out there that have 2-3 times harder content than GW2 raids. On those forums usually people ask how to progress in the content. Strategies, advice, tips……
Here people asked for things to be catered to them. It’s embarassing really….

Yeah… almost like those games were targeted at different people or something…
Surprising, right?

(When i want to play a hard game, i play a hard game. GW2 i play for completely different reasons however).

So then….don’t raid. There’s still other content in the game that doesn’t offer the difficulty, dungeons, raids, open world gameplay, doing adventures, story missions, etc.

This is just a bad answer – and one we see repeated often by many arguing against tiered difficulty.

If the answer is “don’t” do the content, then there is a problem. All of those other game modes you mention – even PvP and WvW – the people who develop them all want MORE people playing them, not fewer. The idea that they developed any of those things for just a small percentage of the game population is ludicrous. It would be the sure-fire easiest way to make sure that game mode failed.

The same is true of raids. Designing it as the special snowflake mode in a game where that kind of design simply isnt the norm is just bad design.

Yes, people looking for a challenge need more content in this game – but implementing that content at expense of accessibility and player build diversity is taking the game in a new – and poorly thought out – direction. The answer is tiered difficulty across the board – making as much of the game as possible appealing to divergent playstyles without compromising on the others.

And, in raids, it is definitely possible (as illustrated by the use of challenge motes – just make the base line experience harder and use the motes to provide story or training access).

And, to the point about how people look at raids in other games. Keep in mind that, in other games (most anyway), this tiered system already exists. Believe it or not, that system gives the developers greater flexibility to make encounters in higher tiers MORE difficult, not less – because they don’t have to worry as much about how many people are playing the single mode version of the raid (as a side note, it would also open up raids as a viable storytelling tool in the game – allowing for more creative development there as well). If opponents to this idea started realizing this and were open to a little change, you might actually see raid encounters that are truly difficult.

Genuine question here. Do you believe that wing 4 has already done this? I do. Except that it’s reverse of what you’ve mentioned. The base difficulty is the “easy mode” and the challenge motes are more difficult.

The differences between this option and what you’ve proposed is actually better for those who want an easier raiding tier.

1. Easy mode being the “normal” versus the “click this to activate easy mode” likely results in better rewards for the easier mode. If you as to activate the easy mode, I doubt ANET would give the same rewards that it currently gives.

2. You don’t have to limit your search for “easy mode” for finding players. By nature it is more straightforward to find groups for the mode that has no additional activation requirement.

If the fights were 100% exactly the same, but the easy mode was activated and the challenge note was base, would we still be having this conversation? I personally think we would simply because I don’t believe the “pro easy mode” community feels wing 4 is easy enough, which I disagree with.

Astralporing.1957:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

So say you find 10 people that are interested in raiding. And you do an “all builds welcome” raid attempt. You’ve got one full healer druid, a couple 5 signet rifle warriors, a standard staff thief, a chrono with random gear and no plus boon duration, a couple eles in full soldiers gear, a necro in knight’s gear, and a couple others. And you head into wing 1 and try to bring down VG. And after multiple wipes you get familiar with all the mechanics of the fight and you’re positioning properly, you’re not getting teleported, and you’re standing in greens. And then you start hitting the enrage timer and wiping to it. And even with perfect execution of mechanics you’re still hitting enrage timer with 40%+ on the enrage timer. So then what do you do? Would you start kicking people? Would you start asking/telling others to modify their gear? Do you tell the warriors that they have to change to a PS build? Is it still an “all builds welcome” raid at that point?

Precisely. Raids are a game of hard numbers, and usually there’s no way around specific requirements (except, in some cases, for equally specific alternative team setups). No matter how skilled and experienced in the encounter’s mechanic people are, many team setups are just non-viable (and i use viable correctly here).

And you believe that is a problem? I certainly don’t. When designing challenging content there needs to be a balance point. Balancing around very offensive team comps is really the only option because it doesn’t trivialize other setups. If you want to use a super defensive comp and fight a few minutes into enrage, that is possible. It is viable. However if you balance for those super defensive comps you end up with every boss being as easy if not easier than Mursaat Overseer when using more offensive setups.

It could take an entire game overhaul to change that. For example, removing downed state and removing damage avoidance by dodging, distortion, blocks, etc. (i.e. constant unavoidable damage) which is terrible mechanic.

Astralporing.1957:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Please explain why you cannot do this? Is there some extraterrestrial force that has control of your mind and body that is preventing you?

You can raid. Everyone can.

If that was true, you’d find either raid difficulty levels adjusted, or most of the raiders screaming bloody murder.

…oh wait. No, you’re right. Everyone can raid. Not everyone however can raid succesfully.

You’ve completely missed the point. When someone uses words like “cannot” or “completely locked” it gives the illusion that the player has no say in the matter. The content has randomly chosen them to not be able to do it. By random chance or an evil force that they cannot control, they were left out of raids and those who do raid were lucky enough to be able to be chosen.

This is obviously false. Every…single…person who says they “can’t” raid really means “I have chosen not to raid”. It is always a player choice. That player may choose not to join a raiding guild, or choose not to start their own PUG group, or choose to play an “off meta” build, or choose to prioritize real life over late night raiding. The point is these are always choices that the player makes. There is nothing holding you back from raiding other than your choices.

Those choices may be valid. Someone with a newborn baby may not be able to stay up all night raiding! That’s valid. However, that doesn’t mean that you are entitled to have the content shift to meet your specific need. Adapt to the content, don’t expect the content to adapt to you.

My point is, as soon as we stop saying “I cannot raid” and start saying “Based on X reason, I’ve chosen not to raid” it becomes much more clear that the issues are based on BOTH the game design/content and the player, not just some arbitrary external force that has deemed them not worthy of experiencing the content.

If you aren’t going to take responsibility in actually experiencing the content, at least take responsibility in the fact that it was your choice in doing so.

Andovar Edoras.2143:

So i was watching W.P.‘s videos about the lore of the currently released raid wings, particularly the latest one.. And it just makes me feel so sad that as a person who loves stories and lore, i’m completely locked out from the immersion and the tale because i cannot play this 10-man system which focuses on difficult and coordinated combat..

Please explain why you cannot do this? Is there some extraterrestrial force that has control of your mind and body that is preventing you?

You can raid. Everyone can. If you choose not to, it is simply that, an active choice made by the player to not do some part of the content. Saying that you are “locked out and cannot do it” makes it appear like the player has no say in the matter and that by definition and random chance you are locked out of content you want. NO! You have the power to make choices that could lead to seeing the content in the raid, and you chose to not go down that path. It’s 100% on you.

Get a group and play wing 4, it is easy enough for anyone who can do mid to low level fractals. It doesn’t need to be any easier.

Rednik.3809:

ButterPeanut.9746:

No…it means that the entire game of gw2 has made less revenue than it did previously.

There is absolutely no evidence that any one particular aspect of the game was directly related to this revenue loss. It is equally as likely (and could even be more?) that the revenue loss is from poor WvW support, HoT maps too hard at launch, 4 seasons of bad PvP structure, poor class balance at HoT launch, etc.

Only in the raiding subforum to people explicity blame raids for this…even though there is no evidence to support it.

Please stop with this. The game made less money. The…Entire…Game. Not one specific part of it.

The entire game without that specific part was making more money before. The entire game with with specific part being pushed as only valuable endgame (recent nerfs to fractal ascended drops says hello, lack of updates in comparison with raids says konichiwa) for a wast majority (because PvE players are wast majority) is making less money than previous game version during its worst days. So… something is clearly wrong, right?

Like other said. What about masteries? What about the new WvW map? What about elite specializations? What about changes to fractal scaling to 100? What about the new legendary weapons (or lack there of)? What about a short HoT story? These are all new things that came with HoT.

I dislike story, WvW, and legendary weapon grinds but don’t spew false accusations that a single one of them is the sole reason for the revenue loss in the game. Your dislike for raiding is a personal vendetta and nothing more. There is no fact behind any of it.

Nobody will ever know for sure, but I’m VERY confident in saying that the exact same HoT game except no raids would result in far worse earning reports than we currently have.

Rednik.3809:

It does mean that raids in their current implementation does not help to retain revenues.

No…it means that the entire game of gw2 has made less revenue than it did previously.

There is absolutely no evidence that any one particular aspect of the game was directly related to this revenue loss. It is equally as likely (and could even be more?) that the revenue loss is from poor WvW support, HoT maps too hard at launch, 4 seasons of bad PvP structure, poor class balance at HoT launch, etc.

Only in the raiding subforum to people explicity blame raids for this…even though there is no evidence to support it.

Please stop with this. The game made less money. The…Entire…Game. Not one specific part of it.

If you have the time, or play wvw and PvP, the bloodstone fen ones are by far the best. For 100 unbound magic you can reset the stats, effectively making them legendary trinkets

Rev downstate knocked me into the pillar…Can’t relog anymore either.

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

maddoctor.2738:

zealex.9410:

also on the part of removing world eater that goes against the whole point of the fight that skill makes the fight a dps check if someone goes to easy mode and completes it and the decides he want tomexperience the normal mode he will be treated with a metric kittentone of kitten from ppl because he wont knownhow to dps or what to do in that phase.

It’s when posters have conflicting opinions on what to use an easier version for, that things get complicated. Some want it to experience the story, others to train for the higher difficulty and others to access the rewards without ever trying the higher difficulty.

I think it’s safe to say that a “story mode” for Raids in a way that removes the most important mechanics won’t be used in any kind of training and that’s why it shouldn’t have any kind of reward like achievement kill awards or legendary insights because those can cause confusion on how someone got them.

If we remove training and those specific raid rewards, a story version to experience the story and the lore of the Raid would be both easy to add and provide access to the story to those who don’t want to Raid. And I call it “easy to add” because most Raid bosses already have an easy version, for example, Vale Guardian from 100% to 66% is the easy version. The question is if something like this is worth adding

i also take it that these ppl would do it once and then be done since they wxoerienced the story it doesnt give aby rewards or acgievement point then why repeat it. Are we sure we want devs to put their few resources on making a 1 time version of the raids?

Agreed. Of these 3 goals, implementing the first one in the long term is likely a waste of resources. But that’s only when assuming that other goals would not be accomplished at the same time. I don’t think that all of them are mutually exclusive however

Basically, the easy mode needs to be easier, but not too easy. Mechanics should be weakened, but not to the point where they aren’t noticeable. So, not an open world dynamic event/easier dungeon path type of difficulty, but more like aetherpath/arah/ fractal t3/t4 one. At this level rewards can still remain meaningful.

You already have this…It’s called wing 4. The first 3 bosses aren’t “easy” but they definitely are “easier” than all bosses in wings 1-3 excluding the event bosses.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Mitch.4781:

Necro is very popular , especially in wing 2. Epi’s remain their best utility.

lol, let’s try being serious here.

Necro is the worst class to bring to a raid. Even Revenant is better. Their damage is near the bottom and they offer no utility. The only thing they can do well is clear adds but, there isn’t a single fight where clearing adds is important enough or difficult enough to justify bringing a necro. Every fight that has adds all you do is have the chrono use focus 4 to group them up, and then your eles aoe them down.

Challenge mote for mursaat overseer in wing 4. Many of the best/easiest/fastest clears I’ve seen in this fight include necro.

There really isn’t an argument here. Every class can raid. There is just this false perception that only elementalists can do damage. The damage checks are not that tough. Player skill is much more important than class in the long run. Hopefully with dps meters PUGs start to see their terrible eles do less damage than most condi warriors and will start considering other DPS classes.

Blaeys.3102:

Sykper.6583:

Blaeys.3102:

Sykper.6583:

CrustyBot.3564:

As for story, sometimes you require challenge for the story notes to be the most impactful. There are some stories where you appreciate the narrative more because you earned your progress in it. Immersion and all that. As long as the story for raids aren’t necessary to understand the main story arc, and are self contained story arcs, I don’t see the problem.

If the story in the raid is more interesting than the main one, then that’s on the team working the main story to up their game. Not on the raid team to make their stories worse or less interesting.

All of this.

The one thing I can promise you doesn’t impact how the story is told is something that is taking place in a completely different instance with different people than the one you are in.

It absolutely does. That’s what I believe the underlying statement has been all along, the real discussion taking place here. There’s a disagreement where you believe that setting up encounters in an easier ‘story’ mode that anyone can do, does not take away the impact and immersion of the encounter in question. I believe it does, the mere existence of a story-mode Deimos would utterly decimate the immersion those who attempt him in the normal-mode have against him. It turns it mechanical, almost systematic like what happened with WoW and in part FF14.

It’s not just something selfish I am describing here, it’s a factor of ascertaining the extent of which the evil we face is a threat. It’s why I continue to bring up the prospect that no one remembers the fights they breezed through, but the ones they struggled with. I would rather there be pure difficult encounters in this game that is memorable for being difficult only, than turned difficult on a dial and reduced to just numbers.

And I don’t believe I’ll ever convince you otherwise of what I mean by this. Nor will I expect you to make me believe that story-mode hasn’t ruined other raiding MMOs by making them into systems instead. I will say this and I believe you will agree with me, the raid releases are slow, it’s already hard enough to release just a single difficulty wing without previous raids breaking (W1/W3 bosses have changed). Beyond the merits of the discourse we have right now, I don’t think we should even consider multiple difficulties/instances given how much more time might need to be spent with the next release.

Do you agree with that?

I think that, given the lukewarm reception the challenge motes in BoTP have received from raiders, the energy behind them would have been better spent making the current challenge motes the baseline difficulty and incorporating story motes or modes to improve accessibility.

I agree that we will likely not convince each other of the other’s point of view, but consider this. Right now, based on the difficulty of BoTP, which is too low for those who raid steady and still too high for those just looking for the story, they are obviously pulling their punches in developing the fights – probably to find more of a middle ground and up the number of people raiding. Wouldn’t you rather they give you real raid fights with truly challenging mechanics across the board and then deal with the accessibility issue in a completely separate instance/mode (or via a story mote, as I recommend above)?

It really does seem like all sides would benefit from that kind of solution.

The problem is still the subjective nature of that question. I would argue the first 3 bosses are easy enough for people who just want to do it for story. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a person to spend just as long on the encounters as they would doing the whole LS episode ( a few hours minimum). One could argue they delivered story mode and then delivered challenge motes with no incentive to repeat them

The one to Rule.2593:

As a regular raider, I also think vale Guardian is a more advanced boss. Sure it’s the one that we all banged our heads against when we started, but escort, and wing 4 Are so much better as introductory raids. When I killed VG finally, it had taken me three weeks to get that first kill. And another month or so for gorseval. Now I can one shot almost all raid encounters. The thing people don’t understand about raids, is that you have to take time to learn bosses, and you have to be willing to fail. With each failure you get better, you learn what not to do. So don’t expect to go in and get it in a few hours, or even a few days, but stick with it and you’ll get there.

True about VG, but that isn’t a bad thing. Remember at the time, the question was whether or not ANET could make challenging content at all. Everyone was convinced it was going to be too easy (dungeon level) when raids were released. It was important at that time that the opening encounter to raids was relatively challenging.

Sarda.5918:

Right now you can have the reward, or you can have the reward and the challenge. Everyone wins. What you are asking to have is that nobody gets the reward unless they do the challenge. That’s called elitism.

How is that what I said at all? The normal mode rewards can stay. All we are asking for is very small incentives to do CM weekly. Something like 5g and a 5% increase chance for the skins would suffice.

There is this concept in this community that giving good players rewards for being good is a bad thing. Next time you out perform you co-workers, think about how it would feel if your boss says “here is some extra work to challenge you that we aren’t giving anyone else, but you aren’t going to be compensated in anyway for it”

I listed multiple examples above of how this is already done successfully in GW2 yet for raids it’s “elitist” (said with negative connotation).

Rednik.3809:

and overall, explore mode dungeon can be beaten even with clueless party so training for them is not required at all.

This isn’t really relevant as the reason it can be beaten by a “clueless party” is because of the massive power creep over the years. This wasn’t true at launch.

Cairn was already solo’d and the Mursaat Overseer was killed with 4 people all in the first week of its release. If they had 9 or 6 more “clueless players” would that not count as a “clueless party” that could beat the encounter?

Sarda.5918:

The incentive to do the challenge more more than once is provided by wanting additional challenge. If that’s not enough for you, then challenge was never really what you were looking for.

That is such a silly argument and one that I see a lot. This same logic applies to everything in the entire game, yet it only gets mentioned for raiders.

1. Everything with decent replayable value has some kind of in game reward. If raiders are “only allowed to do challenge mote repeatedly because they want the challenge and deserve no additional incentive to do so”, then you can remove 100% of all map currencies. 100% of all rewards for story. 100% of all rewards for PvP, WvW, etc. 100% of all achievements that require multiple attempts on something (i.e. AB “Golden”). You only play the new maps and story because “Lake Doric is so pretty I just want to spend all of my time there looking at the flowers and kill White Mantle because they are mean!”. No! Of course not. This would not happen because nobody would replay the content! Maps like BF would be even more empty, and you could argue that BF is the most rewarding content in the game! (Easy access to “Legendary” trinkets). Why is it so bad for a raider to ask for a small reward for their time spent doing something that is more challenging than the standard?

2. There are instances all over the game where if you are “better” at something, you get slight additional rewards for doing so. Look at Dry Top and the Silverwastes. By this logic you remove all incentive to push for a top level map. No additional rewards. We just like doing well on the maps because “Mordrem are bad!”. Nightmare Challenge mote has a few unique rewards as well. PvP seasons you have incentive to keep winning and part of the last reward (i.e. the gold and some shards) is repeatable. Why is raiding any different? The personality, skill set, and play style of a raider is SOO much closer to that of a high level PvP player than some casual 1-2hr per week general PvE player. Why is that the comparison we make? Because they fight mobs instead of players? No, compare raids and their reward schemes against other skilled players across the game, not other casual players in the same content realm.

3. It is good for ANET! I’m sure they spent tons of time working on the challenge motes for these raids. Hell, I would be willing to bet they spent more time on the CMs than the regular ones. Why spend all that time and give players a reason to do it once? Also, this would generally strive for players to improve their game play. Players improving is also good for ANET. It gives them more design flexibility in the future.

4. Your statement is fine and dandy for a solo player. I do things solo “just because they are hard” all the time. However, when you are talking about convincing 9 other people as well, that argument loses its value.

5. Its good for players because it means ANET can effectively deliver “challenging content” to a wider audience. With no additional incentive to repeat the CMs, all they’ve done is nerf raids for the audience that likes them and they are still “too scary” for the audience that doesn’t.

6. It delivers a more interactive raiding experience. For instance, maybe you are a guild that is recruiting. As you are training the new raider, maybe you spend a week or two focusing on the normal motes. You don’t feel like you are losing out on rewards as much because you know its unrealistic for this particular group to try the CMs with a new player. However, over time maybe you bring that new player into the CMs and the veterans are still rewarded and encouraged to help!

I could keep going…

Combat data is not “your data” so it requires no permission. Whether or not you hit for 100 or 101 doesn’t make it your data. Anything that “inspects” the player on things that they do own, such as gear, is not allowed.

The “petrify” thing may be a difference between CM and regular mote?

Definitely seen the “rez” bug and run into the green circles missing before. I’ve found that its later in the fight when the time between the green circles being visable and the explosion is shorter

Sykper.6583:

You are pretending that GW2 is locking the killing of Elder Dragons behind raids. You are pretending that major GW2 lore bombs are being held behind Raid Bosses. There is a degree of lore that can potentially enhance the world of Tyria for you behind a cleared instance and just a tiny bit more behind the encounters themselves. But absolutely none of the lore in raids has constituted interfering with how each player goes through the Main Story of GW2.

It is utterly selfish beyond a doubt to demand that something unrelated to the direct lore at hand be made available to you because you were not determined enough to try. There’s a consistent flow of success stories flowing in about how new raiders are getting together and trying the content, something you wish to stifle because you believe WoW had the better model. Something I am more and more disagreeing with every passing day a legacy WoW raid is trivialized by a solo over-leveled character.

This exactly. If there was story directly related to the dragons (aka we interacted with Tiami), then I could understand the argument. The argument now is that “Raids have story I like from Gw1, but for <Insert reason here> I’m choosing not to do them” and too that I say “too bad, you aren’t entitled to this story more than anyone else, so play it or don’t”

draxynnic.3719:

A question to everyone opposing the idea of an easier mode, call it story mode, training mode, easy mode, whatever you like…

Let’s say that ArenaNet did introduce one, with the minimum amount of extra work to make it happen. So they’d need something to allow people to choose this mode (a reverse challenge mote, say) possibly disable some features, and perhaps scale down the numbers, comparable to the difference between doing the Domain of Anguish in normal mode rather than Hard Mode. They also make it so that all the exclusive rewards for raids currently are still exclusive to completing the raids at the current level of difficulty.

How would you be disadvantaged by this?

loot =/= gear ill leave this here

(Weird, the forum lost the quote identifier…)

Chris.McSwag suggested it as an option (albeit an obsolete one) in an earlier post. The connection is clear. Loot -> Wealth -> Resources for crafting Ascended. Present examples could include, for instance, Silverwastes farming and Cursed Shore event farming.

oh and also do you know why the zhaitan fight was so bad ? it was because it was faceroll easy to.the point where its sad.The “amazing” lore raids have is becaise you get invested to the story through the challenging content its not that the challenging content block you from getting that lore it makes it even better…say u want raids to be another zhaitan fight?

Not sure if this is a false dilemma, strawman, or both, but it certainly bears no relevance to what people are asking for. There’s a broad range of challenge between the current raids and pressing 2 to win. I’d expect the proposed ‘easy mode raids’ to be no easier than taking on Lupicus with exotic gear using the builds available at the time. Still hard enough to make for an epic fight, but a little more forgiving. As I said in a previous post, just removing the enrage timers, DPS checks, and inability to res defeated players would make a big difference in accessibility while still being fairly challenging: it would allow players to go in with more defensive gear and work their way through it slowly rather than the current environment where the majority of participants need to be in berserker/viper/sinister just to have a chance.

But they’ve already done this…instead of calling it “story mode”, or “easy mode”, its called “Bastion of the Penitent”.

How does this hurt the raiders who want that challenge? Well, the game mode that is supposed to be the challenging content that they enjoy, is no longer challenging. In addition, the “challenge motes” have no incentive to be completed more than one time.

Wing 4 lore is NOT important lore. It has no effect on any of the gw2 story of the past and LS going forward.

Wing 4 lore is a wrap up from GW1, nothing more. You may like that story, but it doesn’t make it important to gw2.

I could maybe understand the argument for w3 as Xera is referenced a bit elsewhere.

W4 lore has absolutely nothing to do with the current LS. That is what they said they’d be careful about. OP you arent upset because the lore is related at all to GW2 LS, but simply because you like the lore from gw1. Two very different things.

Blaeys.3102:

For me, the bigger issue is groups of friends wanting to experience the content without having to compromise on how they enjoy their characters or the game.

In my opinion, this is the definition of a bad player. Almost anyone can learn to see/react to mechanics and the damage check on all bosses is so low that you really don’t have to be very good at rotations to beat them.

However, a player that is so stubborn that refuses to change their playstyle/build doesn’t get any sympathy from me. This is true in every game mode, so why not raids. A person who runs a PvE build in WvW or PvP is going to struggle and likely be a very poor WvW player or PvP player. Each game mode requires different skill sets, gear, mindset, playstyle etc. Expecting that the content will conform to your playstyle is silly. Players should be REQUIRED to adjust their playstyle as new content comes out.

Playstyle could be anything from “i want to use my staff wvw guardian build”, or “i don’t want to take well on precognition of Demios”, and anything in between. Not making adjustments is the reason for the failure.

Blaeys.3102:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Well…looks like wing 4 came to the “easy mode” prayers. First two bosses could very easily be completed with any comp, any build, etc. Especially boss #2.

W4 is a dumbed (except last boss? not sure haven’t tried it yet) version of raids with no incentive to complete the challenge motes more than once…smh

This is the other side of the coin justifying the need for tiered difficulties.

The one thing I think we can all agree upon is that there are many different types of players – who enjoy playing different ways, seek different things in difficult content and need/want more/less challenge in the content.

There is no way a single version of the map is going to meet the gaming desires of all sides of this equation. Thus the need for tiered difficulty or some kind of scaling system (as a really bad example – give better rewards to 8 player groups that beat the content and lesser/almost no rewards for 12 player groups that beat it).

I don’t think it needs to be that complicated necessarily. Normal difficulty is definitely easy enough to bring in more players than say wing 1 is.

All they would need to do is add increased incentive to do the hard mode every week

Well…looks like wing 4 came to the “easy mode” prayers. First two bosses could very easily be completed with any comp, any build, etc. Especially boss #2.

W4 is a dumbed (except last boss? not sure haven’t tried it yet) version of raids with no incentive to complete the challenge motes more than once…smh

OneUP.3024:

this complete wing is an absolute joke. Waited 6-7 months for a new raid and all we get is this. The bosses look cool but their mechanics are either copies from raid 1 mechanics or no mechanics at all. Also 2 Bosses with big hitbox and 2 bosses with medium hitbox. Why would anyone bring anything else but eles to this wing. This raid just shows how little anet understand about their own game and that kicking experienced raid guilds from testing wasn’t a good idea at all.

The only good things are no time gates, no events like escort or trio and the overall look of the wing. The 2nd and 3rd boss are looking sick.

100% agree 1up. The base difficultly of some of these bosses, in particular boss #2, is unacceptable. Killing in under 2min with 0 mechanics (literal DPS golem) on the 2nd day of release is NOT okay.

The only way this could be acceptable is if there was incentive to complete the challenge mote every single week…but there isn’t. Almost ever game mode (i.e. fractals, wvw, pvp, etc) have repeatable in game incentives for excelling at the content (i.e. challenge mote).

This boss might as well be escort or trio except it takes 2minutes. It is just as easy or even easier than escort.

I understand groups have improved in the last year…But the 2nd boss is an absolute joke. I’d say easier than everything above fractal 25-50 scale.

I also understand the design of giving challenge motes….But for the love of God if you are making the regular modes insanely easy, there absolutely 100% without question MUST be incentive to repeat them every week. Gold, shards, unique drops, whatever.

If we can clear the boss in under 2 minutes on the 2nd day the boss is available, please make sure there are incentives to never do regular mode again

Bratwa.6582:

My Team killed it with a pure power comp. I know some other groups killed it with a condi heavy comp as well. Don’t read further if you want to figure it out by yourself. You can simply stack near the boss let Rigom and Gudhelm come to you. You push Rigom into Samarog. You may ask why. the asnwer is like crosknight.3041 explained before Rigom once “dead” explodes his explosion aoe stuns the boss breaking Rigoms shield, during that phase he is vulnerable to power and condition damage.

You don’t even need to attack Rigom, because he is basically a Sponge absorbing all damage directed to Gudhelm, which you can use to your advantage and use your soft cc such as chill and imobilize on Gudhelm, which Rigom will absorb. As well as the direct damage which Rigom will absorb as well. So you just dps Gudlhem and Rigom will die eventually, the only trick it to let him die near Smarog in order to break the Shield.

Vid example below of this strat if you want to see it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COflnr5dtbo

Its the communication people are upset about. In my opinion, they should remove the word “soon” from their vocabulary. Either its ready or its not.

My main question would be, was Monday so important that missing Monday meant missing the release day? Why wasn’t everything done a week+ ago? If it was, would we still be in this situation?

Blaeys.3102:

The problem isn’t that chronomancers are the only profession that can tank. The problem is that, in the current meta, the difference between bringing and not bringing a chronotank is far too wide a gap. You lose too much utility.

This is also true of PS warriors, druids/rangers and elementalists (in the last case, for their damage).

Can you raid on any profession? Of course. Will you struggle/suffer for it if you try to bring something not on the approved list? Most likely (unless you have a very experienced group, almost definitely).

No matter how much people want to deny it, raids are about the meta – and while that is partly a player created problem, it is a problem that only ArenaNet can really solve.

Raids are a mess. The only skill required comes primarily from the ability to copy paste builds, a gear grind and then a tiny bit of practice.

As I’ve said before, however, I would have far less of an issue with it if there were some way – preferably through tiered levels – to let people realistically experience the content regardless of playstyle, build preference or gear related timesinks.

Don’t want to get too sidetracked, but “The only skill required comes primarily from the ability to copy paste builds, a gear grind and then a tiny bit of practice.” isn’t correct. See any ele in any other guild besides qT. Same gear yet their damage is significantly lower.

TBH, the real issue was with the latest balance patch in terms of tank. Previously, with 1 mesmer, you could make an argument that having a different tank, such as 1 druid, was a great alternative. But now that the balance makes 2 mesmers “mandatory”, it doesn’t make sense to not have at least 1 of them tank.

MikaDeMika.4369:

This was a thread initially created to ask for current support builds, not to debate the meaning or understanding of “support”. Please refrain from presuming ignorance in others and only post if you have something to contribute to the actual topic of this thread.

My post was in response to:
“That’s good to know. Before I quit playing, berserk meta was everything for every profession which spawned the “if you ain’t doing zerk you ain’t doing it right” mentality, but condi Druid sounds like it could be fun and challenging so I’ll go check it out.”
and
“Part of why I quit was due to the mindset that if it wasn’t berserk, it was neither wanted nor needed.”

Equal understanding of a generic word “support” is 100% required in order to give recommendations. My intention never was to make you feel belittled, but just to have a clear understanding as to what to expect. I have no idea based on your original post if you are looking at a cleric staff guardian or a meta chronomancer/druid, hence the rants on what “support” means in PvE in its current state.

Ajax of Telamona.6974:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Ajax of Telamona.6974:

Ok!
I break my promise and answer to you.
My mistake that i wasn’t clear on my last post.
Because of the the more you lose the worse both your teammates and enemies get .
Because of this this guys can’t be higher from me. Played less games and lost too many time on the amount of games he played . So CAN’T BE HIGHER!
Last time i answer to you

This is assuming that everyone is playing at all times.

Match making will have an effect on this. So the person who has a worse win percentage than you could be playing at a time where he is the lowest rated person in the game. Maybe he wins 50% of them.

You could be playing at a time where you are the highest rated person in the game. Maybe you win 55% of them.

The ranking takes these things into account. So a strict win % is NOT accurate because not everyone is playing at the same time. This is why who you beat and who you lose to is important. Yes over time, the more you lose the lower ranking players are in each game, but there will always be a delta because of the fact that everyone is not playing at the same time.

Nice!
Never thing that. I usually play 1-2 hours after come back from work.
What you say makes sense but still needs to be fixed .

What needs to be fixed? This is a better solution than pure win/loss ratio.

What I would appreciate (but won’t happen), would be more visual transparency of the search algorithm. For example, if you are at 1500 rating, there could be a screen on the PVP UI that says “Searching…1450-1550” then over time it goes to “Searching..1250-1750”.

What this would allow you to do would be to decide to leave queue if you felt the range wasn’t what you were looking for. The reason this is unlikely to happen is that it is an incentive for players to NOT play, which isn’t what they want.

Ajax of Telamona.6974:

Ok!
I break my promise and answer to you.
My mistake that i wasn’t clear on my last post.
Because of the the more you lose the worse both your teammates and enemies get .
Because of this this guys can’t be higher from me. Played less games and lost too many time on the amount of games he played . So CAN’T BE HIGHER!
Last time i answer to you

This is assuming that everyone is playing at all times.

Match making will have an effect on this. So the person who has a worse win percentage than you could be playing at a time where he is the lowest rated person in the game. Maybe he wins 50% of them.

You could be playing at a time where you are the highest rated person in the game. Maybe you win 55% of them.

The ranking takes these things into account. So a strict win % is NOT accurate because not everyone is playing at the same time. This is why who you beat and who you lose to is important. Yes over time, the more you lose the lower ranking players are in each game, but there will always be a delta because of the fact that everyone is not playing at the same time.

I’ll never understand the love/pure hatred for “zerk meta”.

Roles in GW2 are NOT defined by gear stats. Roles are defined by class specific mechanics and boons. Gear stats simply supplement or add to the role you want. However, “roles” in GW2, like Nike and others have stated, are not clear cut damage, clear cut tank, or clear cut support.

“support role” in gw2 means using your build to maximize the group buffs that your class can provide.

For example, a warrior can provide banners and EA passively. However, if you are using GS, Phalanx Strength, and Forceful Greatsword to generate might, the amount of precision you have is VERY important. This is what make zerker stats important in this case, in addition to increasing your own damage.

Minstrel chronomancer is a meta build that does very low damage itself, but is a great tank because it has all the benefits of chrono while also providing decent group healing and consistent boss positioning (i.e. you don’t move)

Druid is a support class. Whether or not you are berserker, viper, or magi doesn’t change its role. However, the gear stats will greatly change the effectiveness of your group depending on how skilled everyone is. The gear can also inherently change your rotation which can also affect your capabilities as a druid.

Roles = Class…Roles!=Gear