Guild Wars 2

Jockum.1385:

Vinceman.4572:

That was not my intention. I just presented facts that apodicticly show you were using data horribly wrong and therefore cannot be used to keep up your argumentation seriously.

Context is relevant. Initially I ~ said casual team content gets played by more players than hardcorecontent. Someone disagreed without giving reasons. Now I could have just written “lol”, but I tried to be constructive and give at least some reasons.
Reasons are not proof. You are right that gwefficiencies data is not correct. It just indicates player behaviour, but it’s not correct data.
But when one side gives no reasons and the other side gives at least some crude reasons (raid players also did fractals; more casuals than hardcoreplayers in most games; gwefficiency)…yeah.
Sure, feel free to critize the data. But as I said: I agree. It’s far from precise data. The point the still stands until you are able to give better data which indicates the opposite.

You don’t get the difference, do you? That’s sad! T1 people show up in GW2efficiency because they will get it done even after hours but rather very easily in minutes.

I ~ said more people do easier teamcontent (fractals) than hardcorecontent (raids). You ~ said “but it’s easier”. So what? That’s what I said.

Bias in your interpretation of data.

Not really. I just said easier content gets played by a bigger amount of players. Raids also have achievements or legendary armour. I was only refering to “players playing the content” and not to “players who love the content and would play it even without rewards”.

Ok, then maybe you start to realize that this isn’t possible at all. Everyone with a little bit of knowledge in software programming knows that.

The same company was able to some years ago. I think this proves you wrong.
It’s a design decision. You can create high quality content which gets handpainted by the pope himself or cheap and fast content. Every 12 year old can create a first person shooter level in 2 hours if you give them right tools.

You have to make compromises. Anet is not in the position to create content slowly. Players have already complained in 2013 about lacking content. After the first LS didn’t delivered enough content players startet to beg for a (full) expansion (GW1 style). We got “half” an expansion.
Quality content is nice to have, sure. But did we really needed 4 huge meta event maps but no simple “exploration” maps? Is a new pvp ending screen for pvp, new heart of the mists, new LA, 2 new frog races, the 5ths trait system rework necessary? Is it clever to rework old fractals or wouldn’t it be better to add new ones instead? LS lake doric: the final story in CM could’ve also been a new dungeon path.
Sometimes you have to make compromises. The new open world maps already do so.
You can have some “perfect” content, but a single perfect map is not going to keep players busy for 10 years.

Vinceman.4572:

You weren’t standing up and fighting for your content in the past. The small community that wanted a challenge did so after years of asking. I don’t see your people here or elsewhere (reddit and so on).

Actually I asked since long ago ( a lot) for easier teamcontent (even my first post in the english forums is asking for it). Also for more difficult teamcontent. I think even a question by me got delivered to an interview with Anet. So there’s that. And many others did the same. But more casual players are not that active, they rather leave the game and play WoW or whatever instead.
I think for many years Anet had the idea that everyone should play open world content. But open world content can’t replace instanced content. It’s a difference if you heal your teammate up because he is low hp or if you spam your heals because some zerg-member might be low hp.
Imho this resulted in many players leaving the game. Playing with friends and family is a strong reason to play a game – or to leave it.
Triple trouble can’t replace raids and fireelemental is not going to replace easy teamcontent.

maddoctor.2738:

Some perspective is needed here and a valid comparison, the comparison is what we used to get versus what we get.

I’m not sure if 0 is a good comparision. A company shouldn’t be proud of “we release more content than zero content”.
I think Anet released 9 fractals in 2012. If they would have released a similar amount each year GW2 would be in a much better shape now.

This is just an opinion and not one that I share. There are diminishing returns on content like fractal and I personally see absolutely no reason for 45 fractals. There’s no way they could do so with enough unique maps, encounters, etc. Also, the “casual group play” audience really doesn’t need 45 fractals worth of content to memorize. What if there are fewer players playing fractals when there are 45 of them because they are too overwhelming for the casual audience than if there were 15? Still worth it?

Jockum.1385:

Feanor.2358:

AFAIK GW1 sold expansions. That’s how it can work – you receive lots of new content by paying for it.

Well, HoT has not delivered 18 new dungeons and 15 open world maps.
How Anet earns money doesn’t matter. Earning 1 million by selling expansions or 1 million by selling stuff in the ingame shop has the same outcome.

Anets team is afaik currently at ~ 400 employees and bigger than ever.
I doubt that all these people are busy counting money. They get paid monthly and are developing games.

It’s not that GW2 is short on money and has to fire employees. 400 people developing a game should result in more content than…well, Idk 200? people at GW1 times.

Thats assuming the time/resources of developing in each game is equal. What if it would take 10x as much time/resources to develop a piece of content in gw2 versus gw1? Not saying its a valid reason because there are infrastructure tools in place development wise to prevent this, but it is something to consider.

zealex.9410:

Rising Dusk.2408:

I am entirely certain that if the raid team were to take on any additional modes it would severely impact their bottom-line content development schedule. For me, it’s far more important that we get regular raid wing content drops of the style we already have than it is that we get additional modes that cater to a small portion of an already small portion of the player-base.

A small portion of an already small portion? What are you even saying? Im not talking about ppl that are raiding for jsut the lore now. Im talking about ppl who dont ahve the time nor the expe to get into raids and they dont care about the “excusive loot” and only care for the content itself. You know the ppl that say dot you dare lock importand lore from me and they were thee reason that w4 almost didnt happen. Im on the group that wants raids with importand characters and themes.

But at what cost? Would you prefer half as much living story content in order to implement these modes?

I’m not opposed to putting easier versions in, I personally just find lore the wrong reason to do so. Lore alone doesn’t make content repeatable which is the entire purpose of this style of end game content.

For me (and I’m sure many others) it all depends on what the community is willing to sacrifice for this lore. The bottom line is that the core nature of end game encounters is that they are meant to be repeatable. I have never met one person who raids consistently that does so for the lore. The lore, and other things like unique boss models, are part of the immersion that you get on your first handful of clears at most. The rewards, challenge, friends, and encounter design is what brings people back every week.

So, if ANET were to ask the following questions, I know I would pick option A every time (not saying this is how long it takes, but just an example). I’d sacrifice story/lore for more content, because that is what I play weekly. I DGAF about Saul after the first play through.
A. Release a raid with “Insert generic bad guys here” every 6 months
B. Release a raid with lore included in a relatively static difficultly every 9 months (i.e. current state)
C. Release a raid with lore included and an infrastructure for many difficultly levels and party sizes every 1 year (may include slower release cadence on living story as well)

Roxanne.6140:

ButterPeanut.9746:

One alternative that nobody talks about is to simply remove all story from raids such that a casual person now has no desire for the lore that doesn’t exist.

I like this. in fact remove raids because some groups of people are excluded.

Two very different things. Raids are playable content, the lore behind them is not. It’s a side effect of playing the content. Sure for some players that play them the lore may impact their experience on the content, but I would be willing to bet that a very large percentage of raiders would have no problem not having Saul in w4 for example

One alternative that nobody talks about is to simply remove all story from raids such that a casual person now has no desire for the lore that doesn’t exist.

Hey all,

With all of the controversy around match making, its got me thinking about things ANET could possibly do without severely changing the algorithm. Algorithms can always be improved upon but they are behind the scenes and not as visual to the player when they are improved. With that, two “simple” ideas related to match making to give the player some say in what matches they get. (Yes simple is sarcastic here)

Longer queue versus tighter MMR slider
I think something like a 5 step slider between choosing longer queue times with a more tight match making requirement versus quick queues with a loose match making requirement would be beneficial. Not every player wants the same things from their matches and even the same player may not want the same thing each day. This would allow the player to give some kind of input in their matches. Behind the scenes, I imagine this would work like some kind of multiplier. For example, it could take the current considerations about MMR and player rank and multiply them by 0.5-1.5 off of what they are today. I don’t know how their algorithm works and this may not function at all, but you get the idea. Some kind of scaling variable that is based on player input.

Visual indicator of rank searching
I would like when searching for games if the game told me what ranking the game was currently searching over. This could be something like “Searching…1300-1500”. Depending on my mood, I could decide if this is okay for me, or if I want to play unranked instead (or something else for that matter)

kdaddy.5431:

Lets just the hypothetical.

You have 2 ESL players queing and no one at there level currently queing or in que. So you have 2 players of 1700+ rating. Then how do we put a match together?

I know some folks may hate this, and ANET would never do it…but personally, I would prefer a UI where you are allowed to setup a threshold. That threshold would be something like +-100 from my current rank. If the game cannot find 10 players to match me in that threshold, I would prefer the game tell me and stop playing.

There would need to be a minimum value to prevent manipulation, but I’d rather play less against good players and have the game tell me that I can’t play right now because nobody is on, than have faith that their system builds a team of randoms correctly.

Astralporing.1957:

Vinceman.4572:

Yes, in the past ~3 months I have met dozens (lot more) of players that got into raids because they actually wanted to. From good old dungeon and experienced fractal runners to very new players with exotic gear only and just a power ps at start or anything related.
Those people had one thing in common: They put in effort and looked around what they could do to get some starter experience.

The problem is that what you describe in no way guarantees success. Putting that effort and looking around for options does not mean it’s going to bring results. Most people will not make it.

I can’t think of one thing on this planet that guarantees success.

Vinceman.4572:

Roxanne.6140:

Here you have it guys. Need 300+++ Li to do wing 1

Exaggeration is a stylistic device in case that you missed it out in school.

The quintessence is the important part here: Be pro-active.

Waiting to be picked up won’t get you even near to success. Hasn’t been in this game during dungeon peak time nor now after introduction of raids – or in any other mmo.

And yeah, there are enough groups with lesser requirements, especially after Monday and Tuesday when experienced people & static groups want to get their full clear fast without taking care of deadweights/risk of wiping over and over again resulting in a big loss of playtime.

You’ll be just as successful as waiting for a job, romance, etc. Be proactive, it’s a essential life skill

Blaeys.3102:

Additionally, we see new people join the conversation on a regular basis. Even when these threads have died away or, in very rare situations, been closed, they only resurface a few days later by someone new to the conversation who didnt see the NOVELs of text already posted on this issue.

People can try to play this topic off as trollish or unimportant or “its just people bumping posts” all they want – reality is, it isn’t going away because it is still something a group of players want in the game. It doesn’t take anything away from the challenge of what is there now. It adds replayability and extends the experience to more players. It really is something that is needed.

This is my point exactly. By “trolling” posts I didn’t mean the ones who are asking for EZ mode raids, I meant the responses to them that are like “haha git gud, EZ”.

For a new player, it is fine if they have these same concerns and have a post. My point is that when this occurs we don’t really need another thread that is 30 pages long. A simple post with “Hey this has been discussed on the forum very heavily, here are some links to those threads” would suffice. Then after reading, if that new person feels they can add some value to the conversation, then sure feel free to keep adding comments. Otherwise, the post with the links could be the end of it.

My point is that having new people, old people, etc constantly repeat the same arguments back and forth with no value added doesn’t get us anywhere. It certainly doesn’t give ANET any more reason to meet the needs of the people asking for change.

They know this is a concern. They know that the number of players it affects is constantly changing. We really don’t need to have the same conversation today as we did 1 year ago. A simple link to it and “please feel free to add comments if you feel your thoughts haven’t been addressed by the previous discussion” should be enough.

I’m not trying to silence anyone. I’m trying to keep the discussion relevant with new value added/thoughts. Not to keep it around just to say “me too”.

Blaeys.3102:

Ramoth.9064:

I love this. Joke topic from 3 weeks ago is still on the front page. Keep it!

It’s still on the front page because it is still an issue for a lot of people – even when people go out of their way to ridicule or belittle others for even bringing the topic up.

At this point, most of what can be said about this has been said – but the topic remains the most discussed point regarding raids here, on reddit and on pretty much every media and fan site. That alone shows that some kind of change is needed in how raids are developed.

And, yes, there is a very vocal group opposed to that kind of action. But the solutions proposed (story mote, multiple modes) wouldn’t take ANYTHING away from those players. Most of the arguments against story or easy modes are selfish ones, plain and simple.

It will probably be a while before we see the next raid wing. Hopefully Anet takes that time to come up with a real solution to this issue (which, no matter how many times people try to mock or belittle it, is still a real issue for many).

In my opinion, the reason we see these “troll” posts is because the constant stream of “we need EZ mode raids” are essentially the gw2 forum equivalent of a Facebook “bump”. All it does it bring an existing thread back to the forefront with no value added.

In that case, the appropriate response is just for someone to link any of the hundreds of pages of posts that this topic has already been discussed on. If after reading, the poster still feels like they can bring some value to the conversation, by all means add it in. The problem here is that we’ve been going in circles for over a year.

To be 100% truthful, keeping these posts at the top of the forum with a “bump” post doesn’t give ANET any more incentive to take your suggestion. The conversation does, and the conversation is stale at this point.

And the players who actually play to win are the toxic ones…smh

Jaxom.7310:

Phineas Poe.3018:

…

ArenaNet needs to stop catering to those people and just focus on making PvP and WvW fun to play. New WvW maps/objectives (with a desert BL rework), new PvP modes, and automated tournaments are the types of things we need more of.

i don’t ahve tiem for catchin up w/ whole thread, but i’ve always agreed w/ this, focus on making it fun.

for the new dailys tho, i just have to waste my (and others’) time by joining a un/ranked match. i dont’ care if i win or not, just got to knock that these dumb dailies

As soon as you say “I don’t care if I win, I just want the dailies” the correct response is that you should no longer have incentive to play PvP at all. In a competitive game mode against other players, the goal should always be to win and the reward structure should reflect that. As soon as that isn’t the case, the mode is lost.

An equivalent scenario is expecting to be rewarded in a soccer tournament by sitting on the bleachers and touching your foot to a ball once every minute.

Allarius.5670:

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

You’re welcome! We do plan to tweak/expand the tournament system over time, so I certainly appreciate constructive feedback and concerns. We already have a backlog of things we want to do. (I can’t talk about them yet!)

After some initial thinking, here is a concern regarding seeding daily tournaments by QP.

1) The daily tournaments do not have a qualifying requirement, using QP to seed the daily feels like a misapplication of that information.

2) What are the goals of the daily tournament? [A] Find the best team out of those registered for that isolated tournament, [B] reward qualifying points for admission/favorable seeding for the monthly tournament, and © presumedly create an enjoyable experience for the teams involved. Using QP to seed dailies also has the effect of [D] rewarding favorable seeding as the month goes on.

A and D go hand in hand, allowing A to be more true as the month goes on, compounding the ability for higher skill teams to accumulate more QP, or at least increasing the likelihood of high QP teams to accumulate more QP. This is likely to discourage low level teams from participating in daily tournaments due to immediate matching against the best, leaving no reasonable room for growth of ability without outside pursuit of scrimming. This is in conflict with C, more so as the month goes on, discouraging people to play the daily tournament unless they have been grinding QP since the beginning of the month.

The dailies become less about the thrill of competition and more about QP grinding. Using daily achievements to encourage players to participate may help alleviate some of this by always providing new low skilled players for immediate elimination, but I fail to see how that will encourage increased participation or attraction.

Random seeding for dailies removes D and weakens A, but is more likely to attract a wider spread of teams from all calibers. It creates the potential that a high skilled team may be eliminated early from any single daily tournament, but loss of QP should be addressed by increased participation in other dailies. Luck of the draw for dailies seems favorable if it leads to increased participation, enjoyment, and an overall more healthy scene rather than systematic discouragement of fresh meat.

I think the compounding element of QP is elegant, but in the long run may contribute more to killing any potential scene before it even has a chance to take off.

This is a really good point. The fact that the tournaments are both seeded by and reward QP based on placement results in a situation where the top teams who play often have a compounding advantage. This could be good or bad pending your PoV, which is why I mentioned above that QP needs to be a calculation that includes who you win/lose to

Is there any kind of calculation for the QPs that take into account who you beat to get to your respective place in that daily tournment?

For example, if a team happens to have the same availability as Rank 55 and queues in the same daily tournaments as them but always gets 2nd, will they systemically be seeded lower than a team that queues at exact opposite times with worse competition but wins every time?

It obviously can’t only be base on who you beat because then the top teams could in theory just queue once (repeat issues of S5 ranked solo/duo with no min games), but there should be some kind of variability to in such that who you beat/lose to matters.

Zlater.6789:

ButterPeanut.9746:

You joined an experienced KC run and you think the spirits agro to the tank? You clearly don’t belong in that run then. KC is a power boss because you burst in 15s intervals and you can use impact sigil (tempest defense too for eles). Condi is worse on KC. The adds agro to a random person in the group…

Genious!!!
EVERYONE this guy gets it!
“You clearly don’t belong in that run then.”

eggactly

Was the run advertised as looking for people with experience? The tanking mechanic is something you learn within the first 5 minutes of attempting the fight. You didn’t learn that mechanic, joined an experienced group, and instead of learning it complained on the forums about it.

You joined an experienced KC run and you think the spirits agro to the tank? You clearly don’t belong in that run then. KC is a power boss because you burst in 15s intervals and you can use impact sigil (tempest defense too for eles). Condi is worse on KC. The adds agro to a random person in the group…

In addition, a build that puts out zero pressure will eventually lose every 1v1. This game is about getting kills around the map and snowballing to cap points. We already had our bunker meta in S1 and it was 10000 times worse than what you are describing now. A bunker guardian should never win a 1v1 versus a class that actually does damage. Period.

So how do you kill these classes? Its simple, stop trying to build to have every single cleanse in the game and let the enemy free cast on you. Instead, find a mix between the right about of cleanse and build some offensive skills/stats into your build. You have to be able to kill your enemy to win…you’ll never out last them if you just build bunker.

Also, with necromancer in particular, it is a learn to play issue. You say “it doesn’t matter what build or profession I play, necromancer always condi kills me”…well try power revenant. Attack when they are not in shroud and LoS and kite around when they are in shroud. Rinse and repeat. Necro’s burst is melee, just run away when in shroud.

In my opinion, the real problem is that these balance patches don’t happen often enough. To me, this patch feels like a “lets tone things down” patch versus “lets make more viable options” patch.

I think both types are good, and it would be nice to have both in a single patch, but if you look at this patch from the perspective of toning down the burst/sustain/stab across the board, it did a decent job.

apharma.3741:

ButterPeanut.9746:

apharma.3741:

ButterPeanut.9746:

apharma.3741:

The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players.

I"ll just leave this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bB99ndl0to

Too bad in the comments when asked what he runs Deathly says the following: “(had concentration and accuracy cuz I don’t recommend using this build anywhere). The reason I ran it in this video is to allow druids to focus on buffing gotl and dps rather then healing the tank and to keep VG in place wich means I also had to jump blues(extra damage) and not dodge.”

Nice try but it’s still a niche build that they wouldn’t usually run. I am by no means saying the builds are bad just that they provide a higher carrying potential at a loss of some or a lot of damage in some cases.

“The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad player”

This video is the fastest 10 man kill of this boss to date by the best players. Deathly’s reason for why it was run (aka increase druid DPS based on build, and to keep boss stationary) is irrelevant. If they had a better option, they would have used it. This is one example of where your statement is completely false.

We can see based on the video that they used 10 players, so I guess you are arguing that Deathly is carrying all of those bad players.

I never said it wasn’t niche, I simply provided an example of where it is used by the best of the best that is not a lowman scenario.

Yes, well done, you found that absolute niche place where it offered the fastest clear time with some of the best players in the game using a strategy most pug groups would never do.

In other words a situation so completely detached from the thread it might as well have it’s own zip code.

You can run minstrels, skip the extra healer and 9 man a boss which isn’t completely outside the realms of pug groups. Even skipping a 2nd PS warrior if you have eles which can fill in the gaps on might without losing much damage. However in the context of this thread and most raid groups they will not run minstrels and it won’t be the best for most bosses or most groups.

Would you like me to add a disclaimer to my statement saying it is a broad generalisation across all raid wings and that these niche builds may in fact offer the quickest clear time in extremely organised groups doing unconventional tactics?

Pretty much.

This thread is covered with examples of where this build is useful, and you are right, most of the time it falls under the following categories:
- Low man
- Make up for mistakes of others
- Progression raids while learning

That being said, if I personally were to use such strong language as “The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players”, I would make sure to include a disclaimer about the fastest kill on the most refined boss in the game (aka the first)

It probably is a bit unfair of me to call you out on something this small, but its what it represents. The raid sub-forum has be COVERED with people speaking in false absolutes over the past year+. “My class can never raid”, “I’m always excluded”, “Make raids available for me specifically”, etc. As an avid reader of this forum, it becomes very frustrating to constantly read these absolute statements that are just plain wrong.

apharma.3741:

ButterPeanut.9746:

apharma.3741:

The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players.

I"ll just leave this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bB99ndl0to

Too bad in the comments when asked what he runs Deathly says the following: “(had concentration and accuracy cuz I don’t recommend using this build anywhere). The reason I ran it in this video is to allow druids to focus on buffing gotl and dps rather then healing the tank and to keep VG in place wich means I also had to jump blues(extra damage) and not dodge.”

Nice try but it’s still a niche build that they wouldn’t usually run. I am by no means saying the builds are bad just that they provide a higher carrying potential at a loss of some or a lot of damage in some cases.

“The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad player”

This video is the fastest 10 man kill of this boss to date by the best players. Deathly’s reason for why it was run (aka increase druid DPS based on build, and to keep boss stationary) is irrelevant. If they had a better option, they would have used it. This is one example of where your statement is completely false.

We can see based on the video that they used 10 players, so I guess you are arguing that Deathly is carrying all of those bad players.

I never said it wasn’t niche, I simply provided an example of where it is used by the best of the best that is not a lowman scenario.

apharma.3741:

The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players.

I"ll just leave this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bB99ndl0to

Crinn.7864:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Ryou.2398:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Chun.5827:

When you optimize to the point where your doing 3-5 times more DPS needed, to reliably beat a encounter. Then yes, your cheesing (i.e overpowering the enemy with overwhelming damage).

Please stop thinking in extremes. Its not either nomads or zerker. There are a lot of choices in between. You can still clear content in “decent” time without meta builds. Everything else isn’t useless or extremely inefficient. Hyperbole and emotional responses, is not a good way to get a point across.

You interpret that as cheesing…I interpret it as the content is too relaxed on DPS requirements.

But you just proved his point, he is trying to say that meta is subjective between over dpsing and doing it a little different.

That impossible based on the definition of meta. Its like saying there is more than one “best”. Are other things viable and possible? Sure! But not meta.

That’s not what meta means. Meta is simply the understanding of the most popular builds.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Metagame

What makes a build popular in a game? Its effectiveness…aka meta = “best at”.

Ryou.2398:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Chun.5827:

When you optimize to the point where your doing 3-5 times more DPS needed, to reliably beat a encounter. Then yes, your cheesing (i.e overpowering the enemy with overwhelming damage).

Please stop thinking in extremes. Its not either nomads or zerker. There are a lot of choices in between. You can still clear content in “decent” time without meta builds. Everything else isn’t useless or extremely inefficient. Hyperbole and emotional responses, is not a good way to get a point across.

You interpret that as cheesing…I interpret it as the content is too relaxed on DPS requirements.

But you just proved his point, he is trying to say that meta is subjective between over dpsing and doing it a little different.

That impossible based on the definition of meta. Its like saying there is more than one “best”. Are other things viable and possible? Sure! But not meta.

Chun.5827:

When you optimize to the point where your doing 3-5 times more DPS needed, to reliably beat a encounter. Then yes, your cheesing (i.e overpowering the enemy with overwhelming damage).

Please stop thinking in extremes. Its not either nomads or zerker. There are a lot of choices in between. You can still clear content in “decent” time without meta builds. Everything else isn’t useless or extremely inefficient. Hyperbole and emotional responses, is not a good way to get a point across.

You interpret that as cheesing…I interpret it as the content is too relaxed on DPS requirements.

Chun.5827:

Celestial (the title of this topic), has sufficient DPS and defense. In fact, the stat combination is so self-sufficient that you can hold your own not only in PvE but also in WvW and in the past PvP. It is a stat combination that works everywhere. How many stat combinations are effective in all game modes? You have “just” enough of everything to get the job done, no matter what the job is. I personally like mixing a few pieces of celestial in with zerk/vipers. Small decrease to my attack, for significant increase to defense.

The point is that this statement above doesn’t matter at all. GW2 is not a game defined by “pick the build that is overall the best across all game modes”. Can you do it? Sure. But the core functionality that this game is build on it making many builds that are best AT an individual specific task. Maybe for Cele thats WvW (I know guards use it), but it definitely isn’t PvE.

Highest level of equipment is account bound. You can stat swap the highest equipment to new builds very easily. There are weapons, backpieces, and armor that you can stat swap for free out of combat. There are trinkets that you can stat swap for 100 of a currency that is so filled that it is irrelevant. All of these things add up to mean that this game is designed to its core for you to make a specific build for each situation…not one build that does most things very average. This is also way better for ANET because the more time you spend playing with new builds, acquiring more gear, etc the more money they get.

A company wouldn’t hire you if you said “Well i’m going to do ‘just enough’ to get the job done and make money”. Same concept here.

TLDR: There is no “best”…there is only “best at”

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

Well, yeah, every item in the game should have at least 2-3 different (preferably significantly different) acquisition options, preferably with one of them being through mainstream content, and/or one requiring dipping into a niche content, but not heavily investing in it. Obviously, acquisition options through heavy investment in specific part of the content should be the fastest, while other methods can take longer.

In such a situation, if one dislikes all of the choices, they also likely dislike the whole game anyway, so we do not have to worry about that.

And i don’t see how it would rob anyone of anything, unless their sense of achievement is based not on them achieving something, but on other players not having shinies.

See last paragraph here

Seen it. I literally can’t understand this way of thinking. I do’t see how the item can be devalued that way. Other people having that item would not diminish your effort and dedication any way.
Also, i’d rather pick what i wear based on aestethics, not on trying to boost my ego. The second way only ends up with everyone in your social circle looking exactly the same, which is lame.
Besides, i don’t really need any ego-boosting.

Supply and demand says otherwise…the more available something is the less valuable it is. I agree with this basic principle in the context of a game, but you may not.

Azoqu.8917:

thrag.9740:

Sirbeaumerdier how many LI are you at? If you did escort every week since release you would be around 40 LI now. Add trio to that and your at 80 LI without even killing a real boss.

Additionally I would consider mursaat overseer to be in about that same range of difficulty. This means even casual raiders can kill 3 bosses / week which would net over 150 LI a year going forward.

I’d add in Carin as well and maybe Samarog. Wing 4 was made so easy compared to the other three that I swear it’s whole purpose was to give an easier way to get LIs..

This 100%. With all of the access to LIs with pretty easy bosses (aka bosses that you can pug reliably in a short period of time), the issue of getting legendary armor for most folks will NOT be the LI requirement. The challenge will be, as it should be, completing the raid collection. Killing Deimos/Matthias/Xera and doing things like getting 5 of the unique drops from Gorseval is going to be much more challenging for folks who struggle than getting 150 LI…as it should be.

To add a little bit, the main reason why magi is the recommended is because it has the highest healing power with the lowest toughness.

There are so many variants to druid, that it really comes down to what you want/have/can get as long as you are lower in toughness than the tank.

The main reason something like Zealot isn’t used as often is because there isn’t much need for a “middle ground” in the current raids. Either you dont need much healing and can use zerk/viper, or you’re better off going full heals. The DPS gained by Zealot usually isn’t needed, but this can also depend on group.

There are builds that use cleric, minstrel, viper, zerk, magi, etc.

Blaeys.3102:

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

But, at the same time, recognize that there are players who would really enjoy the raid fights, narrative, etc at a lower level of difficulty (and, again, by offering that, they would be free to put in more difficult encounters for those – including me – that want that kind of thing).

They recognize that those players exist, they specifically didn’t create this content for them.

So the question is, why should they change their stance on it? Perception? They knew the perception beforehand and embraced it. Because people want it? Pretty sure that not enough want it, for it to become a priority. Although if you have numbers indicating that a significant portion of the population wants it (>50% of the population across all regions, not just NA), I sure would like to see those.

I’m not asking how easy or little effort you think it will take to implement, I’m asking why should it be.

I agree this isn’t why the content was originally developed. However,I believe that, based on player feedback and perceptions the past 2 years, it is time to extend that experience. I believe this is needed not only for accessibility – but to allow them to really let go when it comes to developing true hardcore raid content as well.

The real question becomes the exact question you ask – how much effort it would take to do so. I agrue the existence of challenge motes in the last wing indicates it wouldnt take any more than they exhibited in making that wing.

And, as to the last few posts in this thread, thanks to those who stepped up and defended the “argue against the point – not the person posting” ideal. It really is important to keeping a conversation civil and productive on the forums. At this point, I think it is best to just ignore those who choose to attack people directly. We will just have the discussion around those individuals – with level headed posters – like Fatalyz, Skyper (whom I both disagree with but at least respect how they choose to discuss), etc. It isn’t worth wasting any more time on people whose only obvious goal is to shame and browbeat people into submission or silence (and I will, even here, refrain from calling out anyone directly).

One could argue they already made an easy mode for wing 4…normal mode. What if they had reversed the motes system but kept the content exactly the same? I think it’s easy enough but others may not.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I have nothing against skill requirement to get anything. However, why only through raid, a niche content? And why couldn’t they have been a lot more transparent about it when advertising it?

Raids niche is the fact that its challenging content…

They have been 100% clear that legendary armor will require raiding since its announcement before HoT launch. It has also been all over the forums, reddit, Dulfy, MMOgamer, etc for the past 18 months.

It was 100% clear that legendary armor would require raiding since before HoT. I had no problem about that. It was never clear, however, it would require more out of raid than map completion was required out of the old set. Do the collection and you unlock the precursor was more or less what I expected.

I guess I’m curious as to why this is coming up now? As far as I know, ANET still has not given a 100% confirmation in a post or in game about the legendary armor recipe. That being said, it has been leaked and posted all over the forums/reddit/dulfy/etc.

So if it still isn’t confirmed by ANET and likely won’t until its released because that’s what they do…then did you find out it takes 150 LI from one of those sources? If so then it sounds like you are frustrated with your own ignorance. For instance, this was posted by Dulfy almost 1 year ago.
http://dulfy.net/2016/06/17/gw2-legendary-armor-collection-crafting-guide/

I found out it was going to cost 150 Li when the recipe started to appear on the wiki and I already said what I say here long ago in other threads.

BTW, how is any post anywhere about Leg armor details relevant unless they predate the prebuy time? How were people supposed to buy knowing all these details if they were available after?

The marketing was misleading to me in the context of past legendaries is what I will say. The promotion back then about legendaries was about freeing the acquisition of precursor from the TP and the mystic toilet (enter collections), not bury them behind niche content even after you had acquired the precursor.

I’m still not understanding your argument. “How were people supposed to buy knowing they were available after?” All I know it is has been almost 1 year since it was public knowledge that 150 LI were needed for a full set. IMO thats enough time to essentially disregard anything else.

In terms of whether or not you think the LI collection is a good idea, thats a matter of opinion. I personally hate all the old legendaries because they mean absolutely nothing to me if Joe schmo can put his credit card in and buy the legendary in 2minutes.

We could preorder HOT since june 2015. You show me a 2016 link… need I say more?

I show you a link from 2016 and you are complaining about something that can be finished in 3 months. Maybe its just me but I really don’t have any sympathy when you’ve had plenty of time to meet the requirements. Also, its not like you need to make the armor at launch next Tuesday! You could start raiding today and make the armor in a few months.

Did you know the exactly requirements for the HoT legendary weapons 1 year in advance? No, of course not.

What about the legendary GS, LB, Sword, Focus, Warhorn, Torch, etc…we don’t have the recipes for those! Those were promised almost 2 years ago!

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I have nothing against skill requirement to get anything. However, why only through raid, a niche content? And why couldn’t they have been a lot more transparent about it when advertising it?

Raids niche is the fact that its challenging content…

They have been 100% clear that legendary armor will require raiding since its announcement before HoT launch. It has also been all over the forums, reddit, Dulfy, MMOgamer, etc for the past 18 months.

It was 100% clear that legendary armor would require raiding since before HoT. I had no problem about that. It was never clear, however, it would require more out of raid than map completion was required out of the old set. Do the collection and you unlock the precursor was more or less what I expected.

I guess I’m curious as to why this is coming up now? As far as I know, ANET still has not given a 100% confirmation in a post or in game about the legendary armor recipe. That being said, it has been leaked and posted all over the forums/reddit/dulfy/etc.

So if it still isn’t confirmed by ANET and likely won’t until its released because that’s what they do…then did you find out it takes 150 LI from one of those sources? If so then it sounds like you are frustrated with your own ignorance. For instance, this was posted by Dulfy almost 1 year ago.
http://dulfy.net/2016/06/17/gw2-legendary-armor-collection-crafting-guide/

I found out it was going to cost 150 Li when the recipe started to appear on the wiki and I already said what I say here long ago in other threads.

BTW, how is any post anywhere about Leg armor details relevant unless they predate the prebuy time? How were people supposed to buy knowing all these details if they were available after?

The marketing was misleading to me in the context of past legendaries is what I will say. The promotion back then about legendaries was about freeing the acquisition of precursor from the TP and the mystic toilet (enter collections), not bury them behind niche content even after you had acquired the precursor.

I’m still not understanding your argument. “How were people supposed to buy knowing they were available after?” All I know it is has been almost 1 year since it was public knowledge that 150 LI were needed for a full set. IMO thats enough time to essentially disregard anything else.

In terms of whether or not you think the LI collection is a good idea, thats a matter of opinion. I personally hate all the old legendaries because they mean absolutely nothing to me if Joe schmo can put his credit card in and buy the legendary in 2minutes.

NikeEU.7690:

Astralporing.1957:

NikeEU.7690:

So no, I don’t want people with the narrowest, most myopic, most exclusionary view of fun and good gameplay imaginable having any influence whatsoever.

Are you sure there aren’t other parts of the community, also very vocal on forums and other social media, for whom this description would also be a good fit?

No one group has the market cornered on bad ideas and stupid people, but the question I was answering was why I didn’t want those specific groups having influence and I gave rather specific reasons why. Would I want the average raid pug running gw2? No to that either. But the question was in regards to the awful gw2 facebook community and the comments on fansites articles that attract the lowest common denominator and I think I made my point about them clear enough.

Someone suggested that they are customers too, and I agreed. 98% of content is designed and developed for that sort so I don’t feel their victim mentality about the other 2% is at all justified.

To add to this, in my opinion, simply being a person who bought the game doesn’t make you qualified to discuss feedback on certain parts of the game.

Some posts on those articles/FB are so far out there that it is very clear the writer is very ignorant about the topic. Do your research (which most of you guys have done) , then post if you still feel its a problem

Astralporing.1957:

ButterPeanut.9746:

I guess I’m curious as to why this is coming up now?

It isn’t. It’s been going on since the first legendary armor announcement, and it did certainly get stronger when the recipe got revealed. Now is just another occasion to bring that up.
(by the way, when it was brought up after the recipe reveal, the common answer was “don’t worry, Anet’s likely going to reveal a second, non-raid set soon, so just keep quiet and wait”. You can guess how well did that work out.)

I think you are misunderstanding the argument, or maybe I did before I posted.
Nothing that Sirbeaumerdier or I said has anything to do with:
- Whether or not you think having legendary armor in raids is a good idea.
- Whether or not you want them to put another set in the game via other means.

His comment was strictly about the knowledge of the recipe and how much raiding it would take. He had thought you only needed to complete the legendary armor collection and there was nothing else in recipe to make the armor that required raiding. This would essentially mean he is disappointed about the LI requirement, and more importantly, he was surprised by it.

That is why I asked why this is coming up now. The only person you can blame for your ignorance on a publicly available recipe is yourself. Being upset about the content of that recipe, or its availability elsewhere is 100% irrelevant in this particular discussion. This argument was only about the availability of this information…and it is quite available.

Astralporing.1957:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Vinceman.4572:

Dunno what you what to blame me for. I never said Anet should stop developing content for PvP/WvW/RP/other PvE stuff. And nothing stops ppl of playing these things because there is an existence of raids.

Didn’t you know that when your favorite restaurant adds one “side” item to the menu that you don’t like, for some reason your favorite meal tastes worse? (just a joke guys :P)

Try adding pork chops to a restaurant with kosher food and see how well it will end.

The kosher food would taste exactly the same and only the people who want the pork chop would order it… sounds familiar

Vinceman.4572:

Dunno what you what to blame me for. I never said Anet should stop developing content for PvP/WvW/RP/other PvE stuff. And nothing stops ppl of playing these things because there is an existence of raids.

Didn’t you know that when your favorite restaurant adds one “side” item to the menu that you don’t like, for some reason your favorite meal tastes worse? (just a joke guys :P)

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I have nothing against skill requirement to get anything. However, why only through raid, a niche content? And why couldn’t they have been a lot more transparent about it when advertising it?

Raids niche is the fact that its challenging content…

They have been 100% clear that legendary armor will require raiding since its announcement before HoT launch. It has also been all over the forums, reddit, Dulfy, MMOgamer, etc for the past 18 months.

It was 100% clear that legendary armor would require raiding since before HoT. I had no problem about that. It was never clear, however, it would require more out of raid than map completion was required out of the old set. Do the collection and you unlock the precursor was more or less what I expected.

I guess I’m curious as to why this is coming up now? As far as I know, ANET still has not given a 100% confirmation in a post or in game about the legendary armor recipe. That being said, it has been leaked and posted all over the forums/reddit/dulfy/etc.

So if it still isn’t confirmed by ANET and likely won’t until its released because that’s what they do…then did you find out it takes 150 LI from one of those sources? If so then it sounds like you are frustrated with your own ignorance. For instance, this was posted by Dulfy almost 1 year ago.
http://dulfy.net/2016/06/17/gw2-legendary-armor-collection-crafting-guide/

Ardid.7203:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Making heavy ASAP simply due to the fact that what I personally find valuable is exclusivity. Only other legendary I own is the pvp backpiece.

Exclusivity is the only reasonable explanation for Raids. It’s also the saddest.

Then so are professional sports, engineering, science, doctors, every nobel prize winner, business executives, authors, writers, teachers, etc…without some level of skill/effort requirement these things have no value (aka most people will never be nobel prize winners no matter how long they live). Its the same concept. Some people won’t apply this concept to a leisure activity like a game…but I do. I personally find value in things that take a particular skill set/effort.

Astralporing.1957:

Fatalyz.7168:

Ardid.7203:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Making heavy ASAP simply due to the fact that what I personally find valuable is exclusivity. Only other legendary I own is the pvp backpiece.

Exclusivity is the only reasonable explanation for Raids. It’s also the saddest.

I’m curious, what reasonable explanation are you referring to and how is exclusivity a sad thing?

Getting enjoyment from the misfortune of others is a sad thing.

I think you are misunderstanding. It all depends on what you find valuable. Some people find the skin valuable. Some people find the process valuable. Some people find the achievement points valuable. Some people find the fact that you can stat/rune swap valuable. Me personally, I find the fact that it takes some effort/skill to acquire valuable.

I like to look at raiding from a different lens. There are posts pretty frequently about “can I raid on X”, and its usually a build that doesn’t fill a role that the current raids are looking for.

Wanting to raid has nothing to do with your characters, your gear, your playstyle, etc…its about the raid content. If you want to do that raid content, then none of those others things matter.

If you have to say “I want to raid IF <insert class/build/spec/reason here>”, then you really don’t want to.

If you phrase the argument in that manner, then these posts about specific builds are really more about time investment and research. More along the lines of “am I building my character in the right way so I can get into raids?”, NOT, “I’ve already built my character this way, will I be accepted?”

This doesn’t mean balance isn’t important, of course it is. What it means is that the desire to complete the raiding content shouldn’t hinge on balance. Either you want to raid and you’ll do your homework/research and build a character that will help you achieve that goal, or you want to raid conditionally and you may see resistance.

Blaeys.3102:

ButterPeanut.9746:

While this is true, and I’m not necessarily accusing you or the OP in this post of doing this, but it is absolutely infuriating the number of people who use the word “can’t” when talking about raid accessibility.

You are right in that we all need to stop talking in absolutes. Most of what we are all (on both sides) is saying is definitely opinion and comes from our individual perspectives, both in game and out.

I will try to stop using words like can’t or anything else that implies an absolute barrier to entry.

But I definitely still see the need for greater accessibility when it comes to raiding – and I believe a story mode of some kind is the best way to do that without watering down the challenging raid modes.

No arguments here. I think you do a great job of presenting your arguments in a clear case. But there is just so much fluff with this “we need a story mode” argument from others that if ANET was simply to say “No we aren’t pursuing it”, it would be as if the world ended.

Blaeys.3102:

The one to Rule.2593:

everyone has a chance to play anything, you choose not to.

They choose not to because they do not enjoy how that content is designed in game.

When that is the case, people can either accept it and move on – or they can bring it to the attention of the developers and make the argument for change.

A big reason the forums are here are so that people can talk about – and even fight for – what they would like to see changed.

So it isnt always about simply having the chance to play it. It can just as easily be about letting the developers know when content is unsatisfactory for us and how we would like to see it changed.

After two years, it is very telling that this particular topic and request for change seems to still naturally pop up on the forums on seemingly regular basis. Anet needs to be paying attention to it.

While this is true, and I’m not necessarily accusing you or the OP in this post of doing this, but it is absolutely infuriating the number of people who use the word “can’t” when talking about raid accessibility.

“Can’t” in this context means there is some force 100% outside of your control that is prohibiting you from doing content that you would otherwise do. Think random number generator that kicks you out of the instance indefinitely…The facts are that this simply doesn’t exist. When people use the word “cant”, they really mean, “due to XYZ I have chosen not to attempt to raid”.

The reason this is SO important is because it is very challenging to have a constructive argument with someone who uses the word “can’t”. It is essentially trying to argue that discrimination is okay.

However, imagine if someone presents their argument as "Due to XYZ I have chosen not to raid, yet I would like to for ABC reasons (rewards, story, etc). ANET/community, do you agree/disagree with my arguments for adapting the raiding content so I can meet my ABC goals given my XYZ limitations?

There are benefits on both sides when presenting arguments this way.

The folks who support your argument can also give their opinions, but those who oppose your argument, including ANET, can simply say “I disagree and we won’t be changing the content in that manner at this time (or maybe ever)”. This IS an acceptable answer when you phrase your argument as an active choice, but it is NOT an acceptable answer when you use the word “cant” because of the preconceived discrimination it portrays.

TLDR: you aren’t being discriminated against if ANET doesn’t change the raiding content to meet your specific needs.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I have nothing against skill requirement to get anything. However, why only through raid, a niche content? And why couldn’t they have been a lot more transparent about it when advertising it?

Raids niche is the fact that its challenging content…

They have been 100% clear that legendary armor will require raiding since its announcement before HoT launch. It has also been all over the forums, reddit, Dulfy, MMOgamer, etc for the past 18 months.

savacli.8172:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Astralporing.1957:

apharma.3741:

In fact if you actually stopped and thought about it why would any company make a raid you run once for the best stuff in the game?

Maybe because the best stuff in the game should not be so strongly tied to something that is a side content.

apharma.3741:

The concept of doing that is really poor and that’s even if you’ve never done a raid before, those that have done raids before know they’re designed to be rerun multiple times to get gear.

That’s the concept of raids from other games, that GW2 was supposed to distance itself from. The raids in GW2 were not supposed to be a content you farm for gear. They were supposed to be a challenge for a small number of people that thought the rest of the game was too easy for them.

And that is exactly what they got. The people that have 500+ LI haven’t done it for the gear that they were promised almost 2 years ago…

In all fairness, we were given the outline of the armor recipe loooong ago (based on the wiki, the recipe data was entered around June 2016. ). So players knew the exact items and their quantities needed for the final mystic forge toss-in. So outside of achievements and collections players knew there was no reason to go beyond 150 LI unless they were going for multiple sets.

An LI is the same whether it be from Escort or be it from Deimos. So, if you started this very moment, you can spend upward of 3 years getting 1 LI a week from escort, or you can do more bosses and get your 150 LI’s in just under 3 months….you know, not that raids have been out for over a year or anything like that. Though you would eventually have to work on the collection items as well which requires you to beat each boss at least once.

“So outside of achievements and collections players knew there was no reason to go beyond 150 LI unless they were going for multiple sets. "

How about the most important reason? They enjoy the content. LIs are a consequence of raiders wanting to repeat the content they enjoy, just like everyone else does. That is why people have 500+ LI.

Astralporing.1957:

apharma.3741:

In fact if you actually stopped and thought about it why would any company make a raid you run once for the best stuff in the game?

Maybe because the best stuff in the game should not be so strongly tied to something that is a side content.

apharma.3741:

The concept of doing that is really poor and that’s even if you’ve never done a raid before, those that have done raids before know they’re designed to be rerun multiple times to get gear.

That’s the concept of raids from other games, that GW2 was supposed to distance itself from. The raids in GW2 were not supposed to be a content you farm for gear. They were supposed to be a challenge for a small number of people that thought the rest of the game was too easy for them.

And that is exactly what they got. The people that have 500+ LI haven’t done it for the gear that they were promised almost 2 years ago…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

apharma.3741:

Yes, because gen 1 legendaries weren’t locked behind repetitively running around an open world mapping it right?
Legendary backpiece weren’t locked behind repeatedly doing PvP or Fractals right?

Like it or not you need 150 LI’s to craft it, at the moment you can get 13 a week, so that’s 12 weeks of running each encounter 12 times. Hardly that bad now, even if you take 3 hours to do a full clear it works out as 36 hours total, can you say that mapping isn’t just as boring, annoying and repetitive to others as you are claiming raids to be to you?

There are 25 zones to map and 6 cities, if we assume a swift speed of 1 hour per map and 30 mins for each city it’s 28 hours, which is every bit as mind numbing to people that detest the open world as those that dislike raids. I know you’re going to bring up 2 gifts of exploration but raids also gave you a full set of ascended armour for very little effort

New legendary weapons also require you to constantly repeat the same 4 maps over and over for map currencies and even worse dragon stand a ton for crystalline ore for those horrible ingots.

As for your final thing, once again the armour is the reward for doing the hardest content they planned for the game. It’s a reward for achieving something. If you don’t understand that concept then I dunno maybe gaming isn’t for you because most do use this structure of putting the best shiniest behind the hardest content.

What I found hilarious is you complaining you can’t commit to a set schedule as you have to be available to duck out at a moment’s notice. The raid format for GW2 punishes people in this situation far far less than most raids in other games as each raid is separated into 3 or 4 chunks that can be completed all at once or off and on over a week.

World map is nothing like LI. You had no repetition with map completion. You had to flag all once on a map and that was it. It was also no barrier save to boredom. The comparison is WAAAAAAAAAAY off.

As for Fractals and PVP, they did indeed changed the way it was done from gen 1, but players still had an options to get a back piece by going PVP or PVE. I did both. It was also far less repetitive to me since the currency you had to get for either wasn’t only obtainable in ONE way. It asked you to play that game mode and progress, not kill a boss or get nothing. A magnetite shard requirement would be closer to what was asked rather than LI.

As for the new weapons, it is true that they asked to redo the new maps ad-nauseam (I hated it too btw) but at least, again, the currency you needed wasn’t only obtainable via succeeding the meta of the map and only THAT precise way. ANYTHING on the map was advancing you in that regard.

As for what you still find hillarious, I think you laugh without understanding. Some weeks I’m bound to travel for days to where Internet or a gaming computer is not availble. And it’s not the same every week. I’m glad you have a different arrangement, but really, you might want to enjoy your situation rather than deny other’s RL imperatives by laughting at them.

At this point IDK why you even reply to me since you show zero openness to understand the point of view I express and basically tell me to suck it. I will continue to suck it. I’m too far to stop. But I will remember next expension if I’m still around.

I think the bottom line is with the pvp backpiece and now the armor, with HOT ANET moved in a direction where these Legendaries require some amount of skill and perseverance to acquire.

I like to think of it as the “skill versus time” graph. For the gen 1 and gen 2 legendary weapons, this is a linear graph. The more skill you have as a player (or group) the less time it takes overall to acquire them. (Or just buy the credit cards, which drives me INSANE…this should never have happened).

For the armor and arguably the early adopters of the pvp backpiece, the graph is exponential. At some point, if your skill is low enough (or group skill), then absolutely no amount of time will get you the legendary.

Now the argument is really whether or not you like this idea. Personally, this is the only legendary that I’m going for simply because of this fact. I never went for any legendary weapons because I hate mindless grind, but also when I see players who basically AFK in all content they do yet they have the most prestigious items in the game (which BTW give you no in game advantage), it makes them lose their value for me personally.

Making heavy ASAP simply due to the fact that what I personally find valuable is exclusivity. Only other legendary I own is the pvp backpiece.

zealex.9410:

NikeEU.7690:

On stream last week the Condi thief had a 38k pull on overseer. Tgat was higher than normal but 37k isn’t crazy

how the duck did he pull such high numbers lol even od deathly’s kills he average around 31 33k or lower. Ill make sure to take a look on your twitch channel for the mo kill

Not sure if this was done, but condi thief can have a crazy opening burst if you are willing to wait 25-30s for the venom cooldowns. You can cast them before combat, and then enter combat just before they come back off cooldown again, essentially allowing you to double cast. On short fights like MO, this could lead to 37k+

Astralporing.1957:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Until someone beats the current record without using condi ranger, which could very well happen, its best in slot on VG!

Just as every other class used in the same attempt?

Yes exactly. The original statement was simply that condi ranger wasn’t best in slot on any bosses, so why is it a problem? I simply provided an example where I believe that is an incorrect statement.