Guild Wars 2

Just wanted to add my voice and say that this is a perfect example of what’s wrong with the gem store. Either add the same watchwork bonus to the previously released gathering tools or remove that functionality from the watchwork one and leave it the same as the others.

Others have brought up the slippery slope argument, I don’t need to go into it. Maybe ArenaNet is hesitating because they’re coming off another huge gem store scandal with the human light T3, but this is unacceptable. Find another way to make money from the gem store without compromising your integrity, please.

Tyrantis.8640:

Why the hell do we all level up our characters? To do damage. ArenaNet took this away and introduced barrels (the same from the nightmare tower might I add) to force players to all do the same damage.

Well if seeing numbers pop up is what counts as fun for you, I’ve got some spoilers for you: After you remove the wurm’s defenses with the bombs, then you do damage while it’s vulnerable. Tah-dah!

If you don’t want to run the bombs, fighting and controlling the mobs is also an important job while the rest of the group is running the bombs. Plenty of numbers there, but yes, there’s no loot. But that’s not why you do a big boss encounter anyway, right? Trash mob loot? I sure hope not.

It would be nice if we had more control. Perhaps even adding functionality into the game that lets a guild/commander/whatever force a private overflow?

Just wanted to pop in and say that I absolutely love the Marionette fight. Sure, it can be frustrating that a single weak link can spell failure for the entire event, especially when the actual Champion fights aren’t terribly challenging, but overall I really don’t mind. There’s something really exciting about defending your lane, wondering if the people fighting the marionette are going to be able to sever the chain or not. And when you’re up, it’s extra exciting knowing so much is riding on your shoulders.

You guys did a fantastic job with this content. While I do think as a whole, the possibility of one individual bringing down the entire team should be relegated to instanced content, it makes for a very interesting living world encounter this time around. It’s a really fun fight, and it’s a shame it’ll be temporary. I would love seeing an instanced version of this showing up someday, possibly as a fractal boss and rebuilt in such a way that it’s designed for one party.

Falkor.7932:

As far as the Sociopolitical Diversification goes, are we talking about revamping the current personal instance, or a whole new player housing? I really like where this is going as far as horizontal progression. (would love to unlock hammer on my Mesmer)

The discussion about personal housing has been centered around an entirely new instance, not just revamping the personal instance from the personal story. It would theoretically include the ability to customize the house with furnishings obtainable in the open world (crafting, dungeons, rare drops, etc.) and the ability to upgrade our homes into more impressive iterations as time goes on, granting us various horizontal bonuses and rewards in the process.

Nike.2631:

I would like for this point to specifically mention character Personality. Personality choices don’t have quite the gravitas of going to and slaying 6 Champions solo, but ultimately I think Personality is one of our most nuanced ways of developing our characters and their view of Tyria to our exact preferences and should be a key point in how “Tyria looks back at us.”

Agreed. I brought this up in another topic about the living story in general and our PC’s relations with NPCs. The living story as a whole would greatly benefit from putting more work into allowing us to play our character’s the way we want personality-wise. I’m not sure this really falls under the umbrella of horizontal progression though, and it’s probably suited for a thread centered around writing/living story/personal story. Of course, it should be something more pervasive throughout, and it could certainly factor in to the Grail Quests, for example.

BobbyStein.2315:

Matthew, Leif, and Theo, Witter, and others have been kind enough to devote some of their free cycles toward training the writers on scene and conversation scripting. Because of this partnership, we’re beginning to improve our methods of in-game storytelling. Expect more of these kinds of moments in the future.

It’s great that you guys seem to be constantly working on ways to improve the storytelling, and it’s nice to see that you’re picking up on the stuff we think worked well. I’m really hoping for some kind of season 1 postmortem thread where we can get you and your team’s opinions on what worked, what hasn’t, your take on certain aspects of community feed back (stuff you agree with, stuff you don’t agree with), and the big takeaways of what you guys plan to improve upon in the next season.

Nike.2631:

Whether they are limited patches in existing zones or entire zones designed for that purpose the issue is less in setting up Perilous Areas and more in making sure you can display your demonstrated prowess beating them in a way that others can both see and not second guess. There are a million challenges in the game where you can tell yourself “I did that, and I know it, and it was cool!” There’s very few that let you communicate that to others with the game itself backing up the veracity of your cool story.

The best thing about the Liadri encounter isn’t the precise level of difficulty it offered… Its that there is no known hack or cheat that taints the accomplishment. You see one of those minis, you know what was achieved to get it.

Well, the way the open world currently works with all the zerging and such, they would need to come up with something totally different that granted a reward you could actually be proud of. Even the “Sunbringer” title isn’t all that impressive, and that’s the most challenging open world content in the game at the moment. Liadri I honestly don’t consider open-world content even though she technically was, just because it’s a one-on-one fight, but you do bring up a good point about how there isn’t really a known exploit for her fight, which means the reward for beating her isn’t diminished. That’s probably the biggest thing ArenaNet needs to be careful of when putting out challenging content that comes with rewards that are actually prestigious due to the difficulty: lots and lots of testing to make sure you can’t cheese it.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Cliff.8679:

The best rewards should always be attained through skill. Not RNG drops, not from a merchant, not from crafting, not from the gem store.

I agree with most of what you said, but I don’t think that the best rewards should necessarily be gained through skill. I just think that there should be some rewards unique to skill.

The game supports a wide variety of players. Not all of them will be able to reach a certain level of skill. And for the top layer of players, very few things so far have caused them any trouble. As veterans keep playing and new players keep joining, this variety in skill level may only increase.

Locking the most awesome looks behind skill gates could be a big turn-off for players that really want to look kitten. (Which is, as far as I can tell, a common goal for players, skilled and unskilled alike)

What I believe that skilled players desire most in rewards, is a way to show off what they have accomplished. And this does not need to be done through having more awesome clothes than someone else, just by having something that is unique to the challenge that they have beaten. (From a mini-liadri to a yellow pointy hat)

Maybe I was being a bit dramatic, and I probably should have phrased that last part better, because it did come straight off of talking about cosmetics. When it comes to cosmetics, I don’t really believe there is a “best” reward, because it’s all subjective anyway. For example, if someone dropped a legendary in my lap, (the current “best” reward in the game), I’d transmute it to something else faster than you could blink an eye. I think just about every single one of them are overdesigned and obnoxious, and I can’t stand the footstep effects.

But there is a serious lack of rewards for skill currently, and it’s something the game desperately needs. ArenaNet had originally intended for the dungeon armor and weapon sets to fill this role, but we all know how that turned out. I mean, come on…Light Up the Darkness, the single most prestigious PvE achievement in the game, doesn’t even have a title attached to it. What’s up with that?

Bear on the job.6273:

I highly doubt the VIP package will be a subscription thing. It will most likely be a one-time purchase, bought with gems. Probably something on the order of 4k gems. Maybe it will be priced cheaper if you pay real cash, and higher if you pay gems.

The reason I think it’s a single purchase is simply because of the boosts it provides. Namely extra bank space, additional bag slot, additional character slot, additional skill points, etc. They only make sense as one-time increases to your account.

If it were a subscription model, what happens when you stop paying? You lose the bank/bag/character slot they gave you? For skill points, do they take away the skills you bought with those extra points? And if you keep subscribing, do you get more skill points every month? A new character slot every month? The logistics just don’t work out with a subscription.

I was just thinking about this. I don’t see how they could take away most of these if you stopped subscribing, so I’m not sure how this would work as a subscription. A bit less worrying, but we’ll see what happens.

DarkWasp.7291:

1. What would you do to help players along to getting visitors to their houses?

2. Do you feel that open world or solo content needs a “Hard Mode” of some sort?

I came up with Eminence and Visitation because I liked what I saw in LOTRO with the neighborhoods, but found that without a designated RPer get together I found myself the only one in the area. I want the neighborhoods, I want people to check out all of the work I’ve put into my house but I don’t necessarily want to RP.

I actually had the idea that visitation would be mostly automated to draw the methods of acquisition away from begging (much like the trading post alleviates most trade spam). I’m not too attached to it, as long as there’s a system in place that motivates players to visit different houses.

The boast system I just wanted to toss out an idea that other ideas could spur from. I’m tired of PuGs, but I also want to PvE on my own time so organized groups aren’t generally an option. I just want stuff I can do solo.

The inspection system I allowed because there was the underlying idea that I was pushing for a more “exotics for everyone!” type of system where drop rates and prices were better. The game itself hates players entering dungeons in green gear more than their party does. I stated that the inspection system would not show stats or builds so that players could experiment and not get kicked. Sub-par gear isn’t as much the players’ fault as it is the game and economy’s fault. Thus the inspection system as I proposed it would require the drop-rate change added first or at the same time.

When it comes to the relationship system, I threw that in there because day one my guild had like 6-7 real life married couples. I threw in self-account-relationships because it always bothered me that there is nothing more distant in an MMO than your own characters. The one exception for me being EVE where I had two accounts and my two capsuleers complimented each other, one combat and one industry.

1. I’m not really sure we necessarily need an entire system designed to force people to go visit other players’ houses. I think first and foremost, a housing system would be something you get personal satisfaction from (on top of the actual rewards). That being said, people would obviously love showing their houses off to their friends, and seeing their friends’ houses. You certainly don’t need a system for that. But if you’re really set on having reasons to guide people to visit stranger’s houses, maybe it could be tied in with the living story somehow. Or perhaps even a “Daily Visitor” achievement added to the daily rotation where you have to visit someone’s house. I wouldn’t want anything particularly intrusive, though.

2. Honestly, no, I don’t think open-world content needs some kind of “Hard Mode.” I think I mentioned before, I think any difficult content in the open world should come from the areas themselves. Right now, the most “difficult” areas would be Orr and Southsun, but neither of those really fit the bill. Future areas that are actually difficult open world areas would need to be populated with enemies that simply couldn’t be solo’d, or at least solo’d efficiently. They would also have to be designed in such a way that it would be difficult to make it through the areas by just popping swiftness on and running past everything. Of course, this risks making the areas unenjoyable, especially if they’re not populated. So, I think a really great option would be more minidungeons out in the open world, such as the Flame Legion one in Diessa (I think?), or the dark caverns in Dredgehaunt. Make more of those, make them legitimately difficult, and it’s a great middle ground.

BobbyStein.2315:

Azure Prower.8701:

… onto the compost heap.

Are we going to get SAB returning shortly after?

Because lets be honest. This is the only living world update the majority of people enjoyed.

Actually, we have metrics on every LW release. While SAB was indeed successful in terms of participation, so were the other releases (Scarlet ones included). I understand that forum feedback can color perception on which releases were the most popular/best received/most enjoyed but opinions on this are largely anecdotal. Please keep that in mind.

Now to your question: will we see a return of SAB? That’s not for me to say, but if it were to come back, what would people like to see from it? Harder/easier content? New world? More/no Moto story?

Or would you like future LW releases to cover other topics? Share your thoughts, but please keep it constructive. Thanks.

Oh come on Bobby, you can’t just tease a whole mysterious storyline involving Moto and the other krewe and then never resolve it! Besides, everyone is already expecting World 3 and 4. I’d be extremely disappointed if SAB was left unfinished. Not only is it incredibly unique, it’s a very welcome change of pace. I think this game could use more fleshed out, non-combat related activities (not minigames), and SAB is a perfect example of that.

As for content difficulty, I remember this was discussed very thoroughly during the release (and was one of the single best examples of dev communication we’ve had since GW2 came out). I think it was generally agreed that World 2 was a too steep of a jump in difficulty considering the fact that a World 3 and World 4 would still be on the way. Maybe some additional adjustments to World 2 to make it easier/shorter in the next release, with World 3 being of comparable difficulty to the old World 2. Then for World 4? Go all out, baby. I’ve got nothing but praise for Josh Foreman and his SAB team, and I can’t wait to see what they cook up next.

There absolutely should be more rewards for skill. There’s not a single armor or weapon reward in the entire game that can legitimately be considered “prestigious.” That’s a problem. If we’re still talking about unlocking new skills and such, yeah, okay. That shouldn’t necessarily be something locked behind extremely difficult content, as those are things everyone should be able to gain access to because it makes up a core part of the gameplay itself.

But if we’re talking about cosmetics, titles, stuff like that? Absolutely. Will people complain about difficult content preventing them from getting an attractive set of armor or something? Sure, but no one should really have any sympathy for that kind of attitude. If content is difficult (and as long as it’s fair, and not just poorly designed), then you practice. You learn the content. You get better until you can beat it. The best rewards should always be attained through skill. Not RNG drops, not from a merchant, not from crafting, not from the gem store.

This is worrying to say the least.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Which account-wide achievement bonuses? Luck? They specifically overhauled Magic Find so there were only limited sources of it, with Guild Banners being one of the easier to get. (Stand at LA bank for a little bit, collect banner, move on.)

Here’s how it steps on the toes of guild banners and such . . . with a simple question:

“Why would I bother being in a guild for the boosts if I can get the same boosts off my home?”

“Why would I go through the expense of making a banquet item if I can just get it off my home? And if I can do it so can other people, they’re just being lazy not doing it.”

The achievement bonuses. Exp Gain, Karma Gain, Magic Find, and Gold Find. Luck is one way to raise Magic Find, but you also get bonuses to all those from your achievement score. There are guild banners for all of those, so how do the account-wide achievement bonuses get in the way?

I think you’re misunderstanding my point: whatever bonuses that I’m proposing come from the housing system would stack with existing bonuses. So getting a bonus that increases the duration of your food buffs? That would mean any food you eat, including banquets, last longer than normal. A bonus that increases magic find? Added to your account magic find bonus, which a magic find booster and magic find banner can also increase.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Actually what a lot of people seem to be thinking of is “Prestige Classes” a la D&D 3.0. I should note these were incredibly nice in some instances but were prone to being used to min/max characters capable of things which could break the game completely unless clamped down on HARD by the GM.

What I’d like to see is something akin to a more recent incarnation of D&D: “Paragon Paths”, that is, you know what you want as you approach it and you’re picking something which meshes into the character.

And what I’d really like to see is a form of the Secondary Profession system which doesn’t break the Primary Profession by being more useful than the base, and isn’t neutered into being pointless.

How else to put this . . .

What I would really really want out of this system being proposed is for my style of play to be enriched without necessarily causing me to lose options. I wouldn’t forsake being a Druid ranger if I picked the Beastmaster path, for instance. Or if I wanted to follow a Sentinel path with my warrior because I want the defense but the Lieutenant’s is more useful for guild outings . . . while I might want Herald’s for WvW . . .

You get the point? I want them as options to enrich, not definitions of what I can’t have.

Yeah, Prestige Classes is a good way to describe it. Anyway, it’s like I said: nothing about what you just proposed seems necessary to me and can be done entirely without the need for subclasses. Why does being a Druid have to exist if all it is defined by is the Beastmaster path? Sentinel for Defense, Lieutenant for guild outings, what do these add to the game? Is “Sentinel” just a fancy way of describing a particular defensive warrior build?

I’m not saying a subclass system is impossible, but I haven’t seen a single argument for them in this entire thread so far that makes them seem worth the trouble of implementing when any benefit they would give comes from the addition of new weapons, traits, skills, armors, etc. I think we should be focusing on fun horizontal progression systems that result in attaining these things for our characters rather than trying to figure out how all these would fit into some subclass system. I like the idea of the more personal story-style missions combined with some new open world content for attaining these.

Also, it’s a small thing, but I have a special fondness for Maat from Final Fantasy XI. In Final Fantasy XI, you actually had to do a series of quests for an old man named Maat when you got to be higher level, and each one would raise your level cap by 5. The final quest, which would unlock the full level cap for your character, was actually a duel against the old man himself. Whatever class you were, he took on that profession in the battle. It could be a pretty rough fight, and it was always fun announcing to your guild that you were about to take him on. I think this kind of thing would work well for what we’re talking about here. Not to raise our level caps of course, but to obtain a new skill or something for our characters. Perhaps Nike mentioned something like this in his “New Masters” thing I keep seeing thrown around that I need to sit down and check out, though!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Any or all of those could render guild banners pointless, and irrelevant. I would
suggest when pitching new mechanics to avoid stepping on the toes of other features which exist . . . it’s more likely to be seen positively.

For seeing what I’m getting at? A guild with properly stocked banners can share almost all the effects listed under the housing benefits you offered. And the “food” ones can be shared with the banquet-style creations, so what we’ve got suggested would render the banquet items and guild banners less useful.

And there are also the guild buffs which can be bought, one of which I think is reduced waypoint costs. So . . .

I mean, these are not BAD ideas, but they’re already in here and making the existing ones redundant or found better with less work? Not good solutions . . .

How do those step on the toes of guild banners or banquet items? That’s like saying the account-wide achievement bonuses step on the toes of guild banners. These would be buffs in addition to banners. Food duration buffs would work on banquet items as well, making them last longer than if you didn’t have the buff. It wouldn’t step on the toes of any existing features.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Depends on if the subclasses are “one only” or build like Secondary Professions were in GW1. Because Secondary Professions in that game were what made it crazy full of potential builds.

The discussion on subclasses has centered around them being special versions of existing classes, not the GW1 system of multiclassing. More like “advanced” professions that you would unlock for each class.

As for DarkWasp’s posts, you can just click his name and go to “See all messages” or whatever. Just scroll down a little bit and you’ll see it.

darkace.8925:

I’m late to this party and I don’t feel like combing through 47 pages for the answer to the question I’m about to ask, but I’m wondering what a sub-class system offers than the current trait system doesn’t already afford?

Nothing that I can tell, so far. The real issue is creating content and new, interesting, and fun “journeys” to attain new skills and traits for our characters. Attaching a fancy name to an existing class, like “Infiltrator” for a Thief and giving them their own abilities isn’t really any different than giving those “Infiltrator” abilities to the Thief class itself, and if players enjoy that playstyle, they can build around the relevant traits and skills. Some people have also mentioned unique “looks” that would be tied to subclasses, but what if you want to look a certain way but don’t like the playstyle of the relevant subclass?

Subclasses just seem like they would do more to limit us than anything else.

DarkWasp, I read over your 5-post proposal for your idea of the housing. You obviously put a lot of thought into it, so I thought I’d offer some feedback.

First of all, I think a neighborhood system is an interesting idea and something I remember considering myself before GW2 actually launched and they were hinting at personal housing being something they’d like to implement sometime down the line. I think as a social system, that would be really cool. However, as a progression system, I think it would end up being too limiting. A personal instance would allow a lot more freedom as far as housing expansions, and ArenaNet would likely be able to make these personal instances a lot more sophisticated without having to account for a huge number of factors that would come with the inclusion of other players. I do like the idea of having extra things to do within the personal housing instance though, like being able to build a jumping puzzle or little minigames you could acquire for your instance.

I don’t really like the idea of a Visitation/Eminence system, because it’s far too easy to see it perpetuating a system of people spamming map chat begging for visitors.

Blueprints/furnishings/whatever similar system I think would be essential for any kind of proposal to a personal housing system, as how players furnish their homes should be the core fun of the activity. Furnishings and items within the houses that grant desirable functionality would also be a big thing that can help drive an economy with furnishing items, as well as provide new options for rewards that players will actively want to pursue.

For Boast Challenges, I don’t really see the need for open-world “Hard Mode” type content that involves handicapping yourself, so I can’t say I’m a fan of that. The most difficult content should be instanced, such as dungeons, anyway. I do think it would be cool to see more challenge out in the open world, but I think that should come more from the areas themselves rather than a handicapping system.

Character biographies and such could be fun little optional features, but I don’t think we really need an inspection system. I think ArenaNet purposefully left that out because they didn’t want to add another tool for people to discriminate against undergeared players. I’m not a fan of being forced into town clothes when in towns, especially due to the overall lack of town clothes at the moment. I don’t think perma-swiftness is necessary, as NPCs exist to grant that if we want it.

For buffs tied to housing, I think we should stay away from ones that affect anything combat-related. Magic Find, Karma Gain, Exp Gain, Food Buff duration, Waypoint Cost reduction, that kind of thing is all fair game. We should stay away from HP+, movement speed+, etc.

Relationship status seems weird to me, and I don’t really see it being beneficial to the game as a whole.

That’s all I’ve got.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I call that region “Orr” because more often than not there are tons of waypoints and all of them are contested

Funny you mentioned that, I had another little paragraph talking about Orr being the closest thing we had to it due to all the contested waypoints, but ended up deleting it right before I posted! I feel like Orr isn’t quite what I’m looking for as far as a waypoint-less region because I feel like that area is just more annoying than scary. I think part of it is because it is still easy to get through it by yourself without worrying too much about sneaking around enemies and such, and that if you do die, there are still a few waypoints here and there. You don’t really feel so much fearful as you do annoyed running through Orr. Plus, by the time you go there, you’re already sick of dealing with Risen and the region itself is under siege, which kind of diminishes the whole idea of exploration.

Plus if you really wanted to get the full effect, a waypoint-less region would have to be far bigger than Orr.

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

I had a discussion about this recently with some friends. It’s a bit offtopic, but yes. Waypoints are a fantastic convenience, but they have the side-effect of making the world feel a lot smaller and diminishing the feeling of exploration. One thing that this game completely lacks, which I’ve always actually kind of enjoyed in MMOs in a kind of masochistic way, is actual fear. It’s hard to be afraid in a new, unknown place when you know you can just respawn at the waypoint a minute back. I would love to see some experimentation with regions that don’t have waypoints.

If we’re going down this route of making new skills and weapons obtainable through the Orders, it can’t be done in a way that you’re locked out of certain skills and weapons due to the Order you picked in your personal story. A choice you made in your personal story should have no bearing on your character progression options that actually affect combat. Otherwise they’d have to be balanced like the racial skills, ultimately making them useless.

Not a fan of the subclass ideas that have been thrown around. I don’t see why it’s necessary to come up with special labels for what is essentially just another class build. Everything I’ve seen people saying subclasses would do is something the game already can do through new skills and traits.

StriderShinryu.6923:

There’s the housing system that players all have in mind when they think housing system. They think of that perfect spot on a hill overlooking their favourite spot. They think of being able to totally customize the appearance of the house (or mansion.. or, heck, castle) both inside and out. They think of all of the possibilities of crafting any item they want and placing it where ever they wish. They don’t, however, generally think about what’s actually possible within the world of GW2 and, perhaps more importantly, what’s possible in the engine that GW2 is built on and in.

The question about a housing system should really be, given the limitations that it is absolutely going to have, is it still worth pursuing above other horizontal progression options? Or, in other words, is the disappointment you’re likely to have with the housing system we do get going to be something you’re going to be okay with accepting knowing that some other item may have been put in place instead?

If course, that’s all speculation that only the developers can truly speak to.. but given that doing so might require crossing some of the hallowed lines of transparency they refuse to cross, I don’t know how likely it is that we’ll get that sort of explanation.

Absolutely. Some players may have unrealistic expectations and may be disappointed with what ArenaNet is realistically capable of, but I still have yet to see anything else that acts as a horizontal progression system that’s as compelling and has as much potential as a personal housing/guild hall system. It’s one of the only things in this thread that’s received much attention or discussion that has the potential to be tied in with just about every type of existing content and future content in GW2, as well as the gem store. And once the system is in place, creating new furnishings would be a relatively simple matter (although I had assumed that would be the case about armor and weapon skins, and we all know how that’s gone…).

Sirendor.1394:

Of course in theory it sounds fine to have housing like that, BUT you forget it will kind of go beyond the purpose of housing in the first place. If you want to make housing something succesful, you want it to be part of the world and part of the game. Your house shouldn’t be just another empty building that was built for you without any options for customization. Instead it should be a process that requires you to adventure for materials and build the way you like, wherever you like, and making it open to any random player, so it should be in the open world à la sandbox.

The way GW2 was built, open-world sandbox housing simply cannot work at this point. If they were to do it, it would require making enormous new maps with the sole purpose of player housing, and even then it wouldn’t have enough room for everyone if they want to make it an inclusive system where all players have a home. It would also require a decay system so that players who quit long ago don’t have their houses taking up world space. GW2 wasn’t designed for this kind of housing system from its conception, and this kind of system isn’t feasible unless that’s the case. Open world housing is incredibly cool, but we’re not going to see it in GW2. It needs to be instanced.

And I didn’t say houses should only be open to us with no chances of customization. We should be able to invite friends into our house, and the entire point of bringing up personal housing was as a horizontal progression system: this means customizing.

I have a whole writeup on how personal housing like this would work.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/6#post3410915

Palador.2170:

If you want to do this right, I think you’ll need to make a new zone to base it all in. You could even make the introduction of the new zone a part of the living story. Start with it opening up as a bunch of workers move in to start to clear and build in the area. As we deal with the threats and problems of the zone, they start to build. Eventually, we have a new city that was made to be a social central hub for the game, much the same way that Lion’s Arch is the practical hub for the game.

I discussed this with someone else a bit earlier, but I’m not so sure this is the right approach. From an in-character perspective, there’s very little reason our characters should all just be living in some new multicultural city that springs up far away from our home nations. I think it makes a lot more sense to start with the assumption that our characters live in their respective nations. If housing is going to be instanced anyway, they could even allow us to warp there at any time, similar to the Heart of the Mists. That way it doesn’t require them to redo the existing cities to accommodate the new housing system. This also means that it opens up a lot more possibilities for different styles/settings for our houses, because they won’t necessarily be tied to the look of the surrounding area in the open world. An Asura player could have a floating lab that requires a teleporter to reach the front door, or even a fun, mini jumping puzzle. Or, if they prefer, they could have an underground lab with a cave entrance. Both very different, very cool options that are made a no-brainer as far as implementation goes if it works like Heart of the Mists.

cesmode.4257:

Adding to this discussion…
Does anyone consider the Vision Crystal a time gate? If the ‘run of the mill’ world bosses and temples only get completed by enough players X amount of times per day, wouldn’t that almost qualify as a time gate as well? A player could not zone into an area, and farm nodes for what he needs for ascended crafting. He/she is reliant on the following:

1. The temple/world boss must be available to fight.
2. The server must have enough players to complete the event.

And you can only complete, for example, Temple of Lyssa X amount of times in a day. It isn’t like you can buy dragonite ore or empyreal fragments off the TP.

So you are reliant on the above two factors, there are only so many times each event spawns per day, and the fact that you cannot purchase the ore/fragments off the TP. Does qualify vision crystals for time gate as well?

No, that would be a huge stretch calling that a time gate. A big difference with that and clicking a button and being told you can’t click that button for another 24 hours is that you can set the pace yourself. If you want to spend a whole day jumping from world boss to world boss and amassing a lot of dragonite ore, you have that option. The “needing enough players” issue I haven’t come across, but perhaps that’s a problem for servers with lower populations (but nothing guesting can’t fix). Keep in mind, you can also obtain dragonite ore from WvW, though admittedly it’s not much and should be buffed.

Mikuchan.7261:

Cliff.8679:

Mikuchan.7261:

Well, the arguments are for open world housing, as that is what is most in line with the game in my opinion. For open world housing, decay is not optional. Otherwise you will end up with a lot of unused space.
And the force sell returns X% of your value you put into your house to you. So you do end up with practically what you had when you left. Except you need to find a new plot because you didn’t maintain your old.

The reasoning for the building fund is… How the cat do you pay for a house and a plot except with materials and money? Sure you can require karma as well and perhaps that you have a character of a certain race and some other criteria.. But a house should cost supplies or it makes no sense really.
No matter if it’s instanced or not.

The reasoning for having open world housing is that Guild Wars 2 is a living, breathing and ever-changing world.
Having instanced housing i weird when the housing can be used to create a more living and breathing world with player villages that collaborate to do stuff and what-not.
I think open world housing definitely is the way for GW2, if it’s made in a good way.
But as Dev said, that’s not easy.

I don’t think there is any possible way open world housing could work in GW2. The areas weren’t created with that in mind, and it would require enormous revamps of places like Queensdale or Wayfarer’s Foothills or similar areas. It’s just not going to happen. I can almost guarantee you that if/when ArenaNet implements player housing and guild halls, it’ll be through instances. It’s just a necessity at this point, but one advantage that instanced personal housing has is that it allows for a lot more expansion and customization than an open-world system would, as ArenaNet would have a lot more control over what they can implement within the instances for us to be able to customize.

Quite correct. The world wasn’t built with that in mind.
But if you take a look at Kessex Hills, ANet has hinted that anything can happen anywhere.
It was probably not on the scale required, but what happened was on a large scale.

Open world housing is not impossible, but as said, it will require a lot of thinking and work.

In the end, if it turns out good, the thinking and work will have been worth it.

And I do want to keep pointing at “A living, breathing and everchanging world” which open world housing certainly would help building.

EDIT: There will also be new areas in the future. We will not always be stuck with only what we have.

True, but what ArenaNet did with Kessex isn’t anything like what would be required to make personal housing out in the world feasible. All they did with Kessex was add some props to an already existing area. To make personal housing work, they’d need to drastically increase the size and scale of every eligible area to make room, make sure enough of the terrain is flat and able to support new housing structures, adjust creature spawns and events so that they wouldn’t get messed up by player-made buildings…it would pretty much require rebuilding existing areas from scratch. As far as creating new areas, where would they go? The areas around the cities are already accounted for, so any new areas that would allow for personal housing would be kind of in the middle of nowhere at this point…it just wouldn’t make much sense. I think they’d rather give us the feeling that we live in the actual racial cities, or at least around them. Instanced housing allows for this, and also allows for extra variety assuming they implement a system where we can choose what kind of backdrop we would like (within a city, out in the countryside, in a cave, you name it). There’s just so much more freedom for ArenaNet to give us options with an instanced housing system, and it wouldn’t require them to tear apart the entire game and rebuild it to do it.

I agree, I think open world housing is a very cool idea, but it can really only be done in a sandbox-style MMO that was built with that system in mind from the start. There’s still a lot of potential for ArenaNet’s living world that they’re pursuing, but I don’t think player housing is going to be, or even should be, a part of it.

Mikuchan.7261:

Well, the arguments are for open world housing, as that is what is most in line with the game in my opinion. For open world housing, decay is not optional. Otherwise you will end up with a lot of unused space.
And the force sell returns X% of your value you put into your house to you. So you do end up with practically what you had when you left. Except you need to find a new plot because you didn’t maintain your old.

The reasoning for the building fund is… How the cat do you pay for a house and a plot except with materials and money? Sure you can require karma as well and perhaps that you have a character of a certain race and some other criteria.. But a house should cost supplies or it makes no sense really.
No matter if it’s instanced or not.

The reasoning for having open world housing is that Guild Wars 2 is a living, breathing and ever-changing world.
Having instanced housing i weird when the housing can be used to create a more living and breathing world with player villages that collaborate to do stuff and what-not.
I think open world housing definitely is the way for GW2, if it’s made in a good way.
But as Dev said, that’s not easy.

I don’t think there is any possible way open world housing could work in GW2. The areas weren’t created with that in mind, and it would require enormous revamps of places like Queensdale or Wayfarer’s Foothills or similar areas. It’s just not going to happen. I can almost guarantee you that if/when ArenaNet implements player housing and guild halls, it’ll be through instances. It’s just a necessity at this point, but one advantage that instanced personal housing has is that it allows for a lot more expansion and customization than an open-world system would, as ArenaNet would have a lot more control over what they can implement within the instances for us to be able to customize.

Chuggs.1682:

Time-gating or soul-binding key ingredients are basically the only way to guarantee profits, because an efficient market will drive the cost of the end-product toward the price of materials. This is because the effort or skill involved in crafting is just pushing a “craft” button, so you aren’t really bringing much value to the table vs. the other 10,000 max level Tailors out there.

Time Gating guarantees that demand will outstrip supply, and thus guarantee profits for crafters.

Soul binding/account binding ingredients also works, but will reward heavy grinders/farmers much more heavily than the common producer. If the grinders/farmers produce enough to drive supply up, you still might not even be able to make a profit this way.

TLDR: Time Gated crafting is an AWESOME solution to a very vexing problem, and although it SEEMS annoying, it is actually really really good for you.

You’re right in that it does exactly what it set out to do, but it’s a band-aid solution that adds nothing of value to the crafting system itself, and the tradeoff is that it harms players that wish to use their own materials to craft, or players who don’t have a lot of money but do have a lot of materials. Izzy says it isn’t a timegate, but it absolutely is a timegate for those players.

There are far better solutions that don’t involve timegating. They need to expand the amount of items that can be created through crafting, and they need to make the ingredients themselves rare and unique to those recipes. Special armor and weapon skins that can only be crafted with a rare drop from Tequatl, for example. It’s also part of the reason I’m pushing for a personal housing/guild hall system that involves craftable furnishings; if done correctly, it can create an entirely new market for crafting that can actually be profitable depending on how they implement it.

But the biggest problem is putting an actual tier of gear stats behind this timegating. That’s not okay. Profitable crafting can be done, but with the kind of game GW2 is (or is supposed to be, anyway), it should come from the crafting of vanity items.

timmyf.1490:

As a counter-point, I’ve been crafting Damask and selling it at a substantial profit. This is the first time crafting has been profitable for me, so I’m happy.

And they absolutely should improve crafting in such a way that people can make a profit off it, because until now it’s been largely impossible. But crippling players who want to use their own materials with time-gating for best-in-slot gear is not the answer.

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

morrolan.9608:

How about some of the more egregious vertical progression imbalances get fixed before implementing purely horizontal progression suggestions such as the fixing ascended armor crafting so that it is more equitable instead of light armor taking 36 days to craft, medium armor 24 days and heavy armor 25 days due to the time gating on bolts of damask.

The goal of the T7 materials is not to be a pure time gate for crafting it’s to allow those materials to have value above their cost. This does mean weapons and armor that only take one material take longer to craft if you craft all the T7 mats yourself but you could also buy those mats thus it isn’t a time gate.

We do recognize that cloth prices are a bit high this is a factor of how hard it is to focus farm for leather and cloth. This is something we are looking into.

Honestly, I’m not so sure cloth prices being high is what you should be focusing on. You guys just put out a crafting system that punishes players for crafting with their own materials rather than spending money buying from the trading post. You can justify it as not being a time gate if you like, but I don’t see how that’s acceptable. Maybe a better option would be to fix the ascended crafting system itself, and then worry about playing with material acquisition.

If I had to pick one, I gotta go with Sociopolitical Diversification. Specifically, player housing and guild halls.

I’ve seen some people talking about instanced versus non-instanced housing, neighborhood instances versus personal house instances, etc. They’re all definitely interesting considerations.

In my opinion, while the neighborhood idea is cool, I think it will ultimately be more limiting. Especially if the focus is on turning the housing into a full-on progression system. It would limit the ability to expand your house if it needs to fit within a designated area due to the existence of other player homes around it. Open-world housing, while also very cool, I don’t think will be feasible in GW2. That’s the kind of thing that works better in sandbox MMOs that were built from the ground up to accommodate that kind of system.

I’ll just go ahead and link my writeup of a potential housing/guild hall system from a ways back, since this thread is so huge.
– Part 1 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/6#post3410915
– Part 2 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/6#post3410917

It’s a nice thought, but there’s no way that’s going to happen. It’ll be something that happens in the time between Guild Wars 2 and Guild Wars 3.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . and you’re the first person to reply with a screenshot to me where I could go research the point in question. And I have no idea about Kekt but it appears he’s Priory. Makes sense to be focused on Traherne.

But in the same mission:

Crusader Afanen: We’ll take things from here, Commander. I’ll make sure Trahearne gets back to Concordia safely.

So it’s a mixed bag.

What does Kekt being a Priory NPC have to do with anything? There’s no more connection there than with any of the other Orders. The main issue is that there’s no reason to be focused on Trahearne whatsoever when he’s speaking directly to the PC, and the PC is the one who actually saved him.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s really weird because it didn’t feel to me like I was ever playing second fiddle to Traherne. Sure, they do talk about how he has the accomplishments of being a Firstborn Sylvari (fact, not opinion, and of variable weight since they’re still young) . . . that he studied Orr and the Risen (and managed to not get killed, which once you run around in Orr for five minutes suggests he was decent about stealth),

In the same vein, your character gets venerated just about as much. You at least get acknowledgement of the Orders on reaching the second battle at Claw Island for wrangling people there. And it’s your success which drives the Pact to be created, and the representatives ALL show you respect after it’s over.

Seriously, from what I’ve seen it sets up the story so the Commander is increasingly known more for getting the job done after the Marshall posts the orders.

Being a Firstborn isn’t an accomplishment, it’s just more story positioning. It’s a fancy way of saying he’s important because he’s important. Studying Orr and the Risen would have made him a fine supporting character to offer our PCs valuable information, not be the center of the personal story.

I’m not saying that the story doesn’t acknowledge the PC whatsoever. Certainly, you get acknowledged for your actions at times, praised for your deeds, etc. Gotham City is grateful to the Boy Wonder, after all. What I’m saying is the way they went about focusing the story on Trahearne post-Claw Island is a systemic issue that makes the player’s role in the personal story suffer. If you don’t feel like your character’s role in his personal story is diminished when the Pale Tree is showing the future of what will happen in Orr, and all you see is Trahearne giving a speech to the Pact troops with your character nowhere in sight, I’m not sure what to tell you. Or when she grants him the GW2 equivalent of the Legend of Zelda’s Master Sword, or King Arthur’s Excalibur, and tells him something along the lines of “Your duty is to cleanse Orr, and your friend here will help you.” Or how Trahearne’s big moment, the second-to-last mission (The Source of Orr), comes off as more of a finale than the 5-man Zhaitan fight through which you may not even be in the cutscenes depending on who started the dungeon. There are just too many poor decisions with the handling of the post-Claw Island personal story from both a writing perspective and a presentation perspective to ignore with this issue.

Anyway, this has gotten way offtopic and is better served in the huge thread about this issue. I don’t want to hijack this one. Obviously there’s a difference of opinion, and hopefully they’ll learn from the feedback they’ve gotten in both the personal story and living story’s to craft better storytelling experiences for us in the future that everyone can enjoy.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I still have yet to have one example screenshot be posted where you are clearly getting sidelined in the story in favor of Traeherne, despite doing the work.

Not one.

This one’s one of my favorites. Quick Google image search of “Trahearne” was all I needed. Perfectly encompasses the whole idea of the PC not even being there. The dialogue is directed at Trahearne even though you’re the one talking. This is from the mission that also has the final cutscene after defeating the boss not even feature the PC whatsoever, and instead includes all of the NPCs praising Trahearne for defeating the big bad lich.

And like I said, I agree, I think it’s wrong for players to say that “Trahearne stole my glory,” and it’s more accurate to say that the story itself is written in such a way that it happily demotes the player to a supporting character while Trahearne becomes the star of the show, and the fact that NPCs and our PCs alike constantly trip over one another to talk about how incredible he is gets very old, very fast. Just take a look at nearly every PC dialogue option for “Charm” that you have when interacting with him. That’s a terrible way to do a personal story that’s “really all about you.” Especially when the star character doesn’t have a single quality that warrants him being the star. Trahearne is more of a recipient than a thief, in my eyes.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . I only remember one time (and it was patched) in the Queen’s Gauntlet where Rox and Braham’s dialogue was very generic. VERY. Any other time I could literally watch one dialogue screen get replaced by the other and see Countess Anise go basically “hey I know who you are” to Tobias.

I’m more concerned we had no idea who the heck Captain Evon Gnashblade was as a character until he shouldered his way into the whole “Cutthroat Politics” bit. He was (from what I recall) a static NPC who got a little bit to talk about but no sense of who he was . . . compared to Ellen Kiel, who we knew and knew us from other adventures.

Yeah, I was saying that the whole “positioning within the story” thing was an issue independent of characters remembering who you are, because that’s something you should expect anyway. That Gnashblade thing definitely could’ve been handled better…there was no way he was ever going to win the election for exactly the reason you mentioned. Had he been involved in the living story up to that point, and not portrayed as a conniving villain in his first appearance, the election would’ve been a lot more interesting.

Zaoda.1653:

Sad to not even see dyeable weapons or even legendary dyes on the possible outcomes of this thread :-(

I give up, cya.

Sure, they’d be nice, but most of the other suggestions offer a hell of a lot more to the game than those.

I think we’re probably at the point where we can move on to the next part of the discussion. We’ve got a good amount of “top 3” lists, and for anyone who’s been following the thread, it’s pretty clear which things people are most passionate about at the moment. The compiled list is also really helpful.

I do want to point out that a lot of the stuff that’s been mentioned in this thread isn’t actually horizontal progression, so let’s be careful to address them from a progression perspective. One of my top things was a wardrobe system, and as Chris said, it is more of a QOL thing by itself. When we take into consideration that acquiring cosmetics is the actual “progression” aspect, the real issue is that we need significant increases in the amount of armor sets and weapon sets introduced into the game that aren’t tied to the gem store. The wardrobe is something the game badly needs and will work in tandem with this, as well as allowing us as players more of a collection mindset for armor and weapons. Another similar thing is a revamp of how minipets currently work. Right now, it’s an awful system due to the “Deposit all collectibles” issue. And don’t get me started on using invisible bags to get around it, or special bags in general. We do need a way of easily and conveniently displaying any of our acquired minipets at any time, but that’s also a QOL thing. The progression itself comes from spurring on a desire to go out and collect more minipets, something people might be more inclined to do with a better minipet system.

Chris, is there much of a chance we can hear from other ArenaNet devs when we get into the discussions on some of the specific proposals? It’d be good to hear some thoughts from more members of the team, especially people that would potentially be directly involved with building this stuff. I know you guys tend to be very busy, but I think it’d be very beneficial.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Cliff.8679:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I didn’t get a council seat, and I didn’t get a camp named after me in Southsun, and before someone adds to it, I am not Marshall of the Pact. I also don’t want any of those things. Politics, as Evon Gnashblade found out, is a nasty business . . . Southsun is someplace I never want to set foot again . . .

. . . and the Pact is better served with a leader who doesn’t go get distracted by some overgrown weed and snakes in Kessex Hills. Or the Mist War.

I’ve noticed people tend to articulate the nature of the “stealing credit” poorly and point to how different characters are “rewarded” in the story over our own. It’s less about characters themselves intentionally “stealing” credit, and more that the story acknowledges them more than it does you. For example, the personal story mission in the ruins where the NPCs go on and on about being rescued by Trahearne, while you were the one who actually made things happen. Or when you defeat the boss, and the cutscene following is filled with the characters praising Trahearne for taking him down while you don’t have a single line in the entire cutscene. Or when you kill Zhaitan, and the group of NPCs who say something along the lines of “Three cheers for Trahearne!” and afterwards, one goes “And don’t forget the commander!” And that’s it.

I’m going to do it, again. Linked is something which pretty much dropkicks that interpretation in the teeth.

Quoting: “You’re an inspiration, Commander. Many believe that if we can defeat Zhaitan, Jormag will be next. Your deeds bring great hope to the norn.”

YOUR deeds. Not TRAEHERNE’S, not the Pact, YOURS.

The game absolutely does a very poor job of properly positioning the PC in the story in a way that’s congruent with his/her actions and accomplishments, opting instead to elevate the roles the NPCs play.

Yes and no.

Hero of Shaemoor. Slayer of Issormir. Both of these persist into Living Story, even if it’s throwaways. Countess Anise remembered Tobias during the Queen’s Gauntlet. Also, Braham and Rox do a great job of remembering you and basically going “hey, we’re going to come along, this looks like fun”.

Personal story, however, due to the modular nature of how it proceeds, has the early accomplishments (Chapters 1, 2, and 3) almost disappear as soon as they leave into the broader world (the Order chapters). At the end, Crusader Deborah (sis?!) didn’t even know I existed despite saving her from imprisonment.

Yeah, no, sorry. A single example doesn’t “dropkick that interpretation in the teeth” when there are far more examples in the other direction. ArenaNet has even come out and admitted that they need to do a better job with this in other threads that have brought up similar issues. But hey, if you don’t have an issue with it, that’s great.

As for NPCs remembering you in the living story, I don’t think that’s even worth mentioning as being an example of the PC being positioned well within the story. Could you imagine playing any story where every time you met the same character, they had no idea who you were?

But I do agree that they have been (slowly) getting better about this. I complimented the team who made the destruction of the tower in Kessex instance due to them deliberately making the cutscene at the beginning pan around not only Kasmeer and Marjory, but our characters as well. It was a small detail, but the game has been lacking small details like that from the start, and it adds up. NPC dialogue has been one of the absolute biggest offenders, and that’s something that can be easily remedied. I don’t know if we’ll really be able to see any good come from all the Trahearne/personal story backlash until we get the next installment of actual personal story stuff, though.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I didn’t get a council seat, and I didn’t get a camp named after me in Southsun, and before someone adds to it, I am not Marshall of the Pact. I also don’t want any of those things. Politics, as Evon Gnashblade found out, is a nasty business . . . Southsun is someplace I never want to set foot again . . .

. . . and the Pact is better served with a leader who doesn’t go get distracted by some overgrown weed and snakes in Kessex Hills. Or the Mist War.

I’ve noticed people tend to articulate the nature of the “stealing credit” poorly and point to how different characters are “rewarded” in the story over our own. It’s less about characters themselves intentionally “stealing” credit, and more that the story acknowledges them more than it does you. For example, the personal story mission in the ruins where the NPCs go on and on about being rescued by Trahearne, while you were the one who actually made things happen. Or when you defeat the boss, and the cutscene following is filled with the characters praising Trahearne for taking him down while you don’t have a single line in the entire cutscene. Or when you kill Zhaitan, and the group of NPCs who say something along the lines of “Three cheers for Trahearne!” and afterwards, one goes “And don’t forget the commander!” And that’s it.

The game absolutely does a very poor job of properly positioning the PC in the story in a way that’s congruent with his/her actions and accomplishments, opting instead to elevate the roles the NPCs play.

1) Personal Housing/Guild Halls with extensive, account-wide progression systems.
– Part 1 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/6#post3410915
– Part 2 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/6#post3410917

2) Wardrobe system that allows us to collect armor and weapon skins, making them into account-wide, reusable skins. This would also entail a greater focus on creating brand new weapon and armor sets that aren’t tied to the gem store, and are instead tied to new content such as dungeons, events, quests, living story missions, etc.

3) New skills and systems designed for acquiring them. Not just heal skills and utility skills: weapon skills as well. Give existing weapons new build possibilities, such as providing alternative skills that revolve around different builds/playstyles. For example, taking a weapon that’s currently very condition-focused a more power-focused skillset, or vice versa. Or a skillset more focused on damage a selection of skills focused more on control or support. These could work the same way utility skills work now, where you can switch them out at will. Make acquisition of these skills involve content in some way, not just pumping skill points into them.

adubb.2453:

I don’t think Faction reputation has to necessarily be a grind in and of itself. It could be a vehicle for more content. The idea behind the Living Story and the 2-week cadence is to create the idea that Tyria is a living, breathing world with things going on all the time. It’s not static for a long time and then SUDDENLY HUGE THING!

I think the idea of using the existing Factions (Vigil, Durmand Priory, Whispers, Pact, and all the different races) is another avenue to do something similar. It could be a neat way to have smaller content that shows that while there are major events going on in the world, there are other things going on as well.

Examples of this kind of content would be things like “Acolyte kitten of The Durmand Priory got word that there is an ancient artifact in a cave in Frostgorge Sound. Help Acolyte kitten investigate by searching for this Artifact.” Then there’s a series of events where you meet up with Acolyte kitten , going hunting in the wrong cave but get a clue as to the right one. You go to the right one but some Corrupted Quaggan got to it first and you have to fight them for it. Then it turns out the artifact is broken and you have to go get the remaining piece from another cave that’s guarded by a Champ Quaggan/Krait hybrid that takes a bunch of people to kill. Beat it, get the other piece bring it back to the Priory for study. Tada! You get a bunch of factions points with the Priory and the maybe the Quaggans for protecting them or something and you felt like you actually did something worth doing.

I agree that if every time you set out to gain faction, it was done through substantial, non-grindy content, that would be great. What you’re describing sounds closer to a series of personal story missions. The problem is, I don’t see them coming out with enough content like this to keep it from getting boring. If you’re trying to attach it to the living story and not make it its own thing, then what about the actual living story release? Resources going into the Order missions would take away from that, and I think that would do a disservice to both.

Nike.2631:

In many ways Horizontal Progression is fundamentally about “Adding things to do… and incentivizing them in a way that doesn’t blow up your game…”

That they drink player time like sweet spring rain is sorta the point .

That said, the specifics of implementation are key. Assume you need “100 ticks” to get something you want. For me at least the difference between there being 25 activities that can generate a tick giving an average of 4 times each to get the shiny, and 5 activities giving me an average repeat rate of 20 times ((grrr)) is the difference between fun and OMGWTBBQ grinding .

Right now, the kind of horizontal progression we really need is something that players can continuously work towards without any kind of time-gating. The kinds of implementation I’m seeing for faction rep involve dailies/weeklies or events. The daily/weekly thing isn’t what we need right now; it’s something you finish within a quick session or two and then for the rest of the day/week, we’re back to where we are now: directionless. The alternative, a system based on being able to continuously raise your faction rep through doing events over and over, just becomes a grind. If they want it to last players a long time, each event wouldn’t give much progress individually. Even worse, this would combine with the fact that there simply wouldn’t be enough variety in events to make it consistently enjoyable. It would get boring quickly, and there would still be a long way to go.

I’m much more interested in forms of horizontal progression that can be pursued at an individual player’s pace, and is built from the ground up in such a way that it isn’t a grind.

These posts about wanting some kind of Faction reputation worry me. It’s one of the easiest things to turn into a grind, and it just doesn’t seem that interesting. There are far more substantial things the devs can implement for horizontal progression than faction rep. Besides, a rank system within the factions doesn’t exactly work too well considering we’re the commander of the Pact in the story anyway.

If a rep system is ever implemented, I sincerely hope we get some of the more important systems in first.

(Cont.)

Incentives
So why spend the time and money on furnishing and upgrading your house (aside from the fun of it and the ability to show it off to friends, of course)? With each increased level, players are awarded with passive, account-wide benefits. Not only that, certain pieces of furniture could grant desirable functionality to the player’s home (trading post access, bank access, crafting stations, mystic forge access, merchant access, gardens with gatherable plants, extra bank tabs, etc.)

Passive bonuses could be award similarly to the bonuses granted by achievement chests. Magic Find, Gold Find, Karma Gain, and Experience Gain are givens, but there are plenty of other possibilities to tap into. Reduced Waypoint Costs, Crafting Critical Rate, World EXP Bonuses, Reduced Repair Costs, increased duration of Food/Drink buffs would all work well. Each time a player increases their house level, bonuses to any and all of these passives could be awarded.

Upgrade progress and passive bonuses should be account-bound. If a player gets to a Level 3 house on one character, for example, all other characters on that account should be allowed to jump straight to level 3 with their own houses without having to meet furnishing objectives or pay the builder’s fees.

How can the Gem Store fit in to this?
New housing styles could be released for purchase on the gem store. Maybe a Charr player would prefer to live like a gladium, rather than having a home themed towards one of the legions. A human player might not want to be limited to Divinity’s Reach, and would prefer to own farmland out in Queensdale. Special furniture packs such as Wintersday and Halloween themed packs could let us decorate for the holidays.

Special Instances and Incorporation with the Living Story
Characters could visit the player homes (instead of sending mail all the time), and certain aspects of these visits could change based on interactions with the player. It opens up a lot of possibilities in the living story, providing a new area through which it can be told. It also makes the story more personal. NPCs specifically seeking our characters out in person, rather than the other way around, would go a long way to make us feel more important in the world of Tyria. There can even be special encounters that take place in our player homes, related to the living story or not. How about an asura’s lab being attacked by the Inquest trying to steal their work?

So how would this benefit Guild Wars 2 as a whole?
- A new, extensive, long-term horizontal progression system that gives players new goals to work towards.
- Furniture system can greatly expand the crafting system, as well as the economy. Builder fees when players upgrade their houses add in a new gold sink to the game. Also opens up new rewards that players can work towards through drops, achievements, dungeons, etc.
- Additional passive bonuses to player accounts that act as horizontal progression on top of the the goal of actually expanding our player homes.
- Allows for more possibilities with the living story, including expanded Player-NPC interaction.

And finally…how can Guild Halls be involved?
As a huge bonus, this same system can be applied to Guild Halls. Each “housing style” would be more appropriate for a Guild Hall rather than a personal home. Rather than the individual, account-wide benefits granted by personal housing upgrades, the benefits from Guild Hall upgrades would be more guild-oriented. For example, faster build times for guild upgrades. Reduced influence costs for upgrades. Extended effects from guild bonuses (banner effects last longer, +10% Magic Find for 3 days becomes 5 days). Increased merits awarded for successful guild missions. The ability to unlock all new guild upgrades. Like a personal housing system, the Guild Hall system has all kinds of possibilities and can work on the same foundation.

Obviously this would be an enormous amount of work, and I honestly don’t expect you guys to pull off something this extensive. But what if you did? I hope, at the very least, this outline is something that appeals to you and is something you could strive for. I think it would do wonders for the game, but only if you guys go all out with personal housing. Not going all the way with it risks it becoming an afterthought for players, rather than a core system for us to incorporate into how we play the game. We’re in dire need of horizontal progression, and I can’t think of anything that would give every single player an attractive, long-term goal more than this would.

I went into this briefly in the vertical progression thread, but I want to get a bit more indepth with a proposal for a personal housing system that could fill a major role being an ongoing form of horizontal progression for the playerbase. I want to stress that just adding gatherables and small things to the existing home instances isn’t going to cut it. If you’re going to do this, go all the way. Don’t halfass it just so you can say we have it. Do it right, and it could become a major aspect of the entire Guild Wars 2 experience!

Personal Housing

All players begin with a Level 1 house, and are able to choose among a small selection of styles appropriate to their race.

• Humans
  – A small, run-down apartment in Divinity’s Reach appropriate to a street rat.
  – A small, modest home in Divinity’s Reach appropriate for a commoner.
  – A small, but luxurious home in Divinity’s Reach appropriate for a minor noble.
• Charr
  – A small Blood Legion-themed military tent with just enough room for the player and his/her warband.
  – A small Ash Legion-themed military tent with just enough room for the player and his/her warband.
  – A small Iron Legion-themed military tent with just enough room for the player and his/her warband.
• Asura
  – A small home/lab with equipment themed towards golemancy.
  – A small home/lab with equipment themed towards study of the Eternal Alchemy.
  – A small home/lab with equipment themed towards a variety of different, less-focused projects.
• Norn
  – A campsite out in the wilderness of the Shiverpeaks, appropriate for a roaming hunter.
  – A small lodge similar to those found throughout the Shiverpeaks located outside of Hoelbrak.
  – A small lodge similar to those found throughout the Shiverpeaks located within Hoelbrak.
• Sylvari
  – A small home within the Grove, located higher up on the tree and themed towards a certain season.
  – A small home within the Grove, located midway up the tree and themed towards a certain season..
  – A small home within the Grove, located on the ground and themed towards a certain season.

Players would be provided with a selection of basic furniture options appropriate to their chosen style, and from there, can begin furnishing their houses as they see fit. This leads into…

Upgrade System
This is where the progression comes in. Taking some inspiration from the Dark Cloud series, players have certain objectives they need to fulfill with their houses before they unlock the ability to upgrade to a Level 2 house. As the Level 1 house would be fairly small, there wouldn’t be much room for anything but an area to eat and sleep. Therefore, the prerequisites for being able to upgrade to Level 2 could be to place a bed, a table, and two chairs into the house. Once this is complete, players have the ability to spend gold on upgrading to Level 2.

Upgrading increases the size of the house, opening up the layout and allowing for more furniture to be placed within. From here, new objectives would open up to allow the player to upgrade to Level 3. Perhaps the player would need a certain amount of storage items like cabinets, dressers, desks, bookshelves, etc. Then, after that, maybe a focus on more decorative items such as paintings, plants, statues, etc. As a player’s house gets to be higher level, they’ll start requiring certain furnishings that aren’t provided initially. This would require the player to obtain certain furnishings through other methods such as crafting, drops, merchants, achievements, etc. Whenever a player reaches a certain level, they can freely refurnish their house without losing progress on their previous objectives. Eventually, if a player maxes out their house level, they can completely customize it however they’d like and would retain any and all progress.

Eventually, that human player who opted for the run-down street rat apartment could be living in an impressive hideout that would make any master thief proud. That noble could have a manor rivaling Caudecus’. The asura studying golemancy could have a huge lab, complete with an assembly line that produces customizable golems 24/7. Norn steadings turning into enormous lodges, Charr tents becoming great military barracks for their elite warbands, Sylvari plant houses becoming huge, elaborate organic homes. They’re exciting possibilities.

(Cont.)

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Here is the next evolution of the original Vertical Progression proposal based on a summary of our discussions:

Regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method.

A review of current RNG metrics.

The ability to change gear stats (Note there is still a lot of discussion about whether people want this or not)

The ability to build up to Ascended Gear through drops rather than just relying on RNG.

Ascended Gear mats dropping more equally across the game, for example WvW.

No more new Gear tiers that make the existing tiers obsolete.

Additional ways to earn Ascended Gear at accelerated for Alts.

Note this is the formulation of a proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of actions or schedule.

Chris

Bump. We are close to being able to move onto the ‘focused’ Horizontal Progression part of this conversation.

Does anyone have anymore comments on the proposal above based on our discussions?

Chris

Izzy mentioned earlier that ArenaNet’s stance is that obtaining ascended gear should take a long time. I was very pleased to see quite a number of people calling that out as being a problem, but at the same time, it’s worrying to see that one of the biggest core philosophies for GW2 is no longer shared between ArenaNet and the players.

• It’s okay for legendary weapons to be costly and to take a long time to obtain. They’re vanity items and don’t contribute to vertical progression.
• It’s okay for account bonuses like gold find, magic find, etc. to take a long time to boost up. They’re nice passive bonuses that don’t actually contribute to the gameplay itself and our characters’ capabilities.
• It’s okay for PvP Rank to take a long time to raise. It’s something meant to be able to last players for years, and doesn’t have any effect on gameplay or character capabilities.

It’s not okay for obtaining ascended gear to be as costly as it is, as time-consuming as it is, and as limited as it is when it has an actual effect on vertical progression for our characters. The claim that ascended items “create a bridge between exotic and legendary” is bogus, the reasoning having been stated a number of times throughout this thread. I sincerely hope you guys understand why, because until you do, I’m worried about anything substantial being done to put ascended gear in the role it actually fills . Ascended gear has no business being as costly, both in time and resources, to obtain as it is. It’s a very slight upgrade from exotics, and as such, should take a very slight amount of time, effort, and/or resources to obtain.

A lot of the proposals are going to be working off of each other, and as such, I think it’s very, very important that you take time and revisit the crafting requirements on ascended items based on how you move forward with regards to the ability to change stats and the methods of making multiple sets for both different builds and alts. The recipes need to require less materials. The time-gating needs serious adjusting, if not complete removal. The reliance on laurels needs to be cut back. Crafting is miserable enough as it is, and there is absolutely nothing enjoyable or fulfilling about the process of crafting ascended gear.

And finally, I just wanted to bring up one last thing really quickly before we move on to horizontal progression that I haven’t seen mentioned yet:

With regards to the changes to infused ascended gear and the agony resistance slots…
Why were the new agony resistance slots implemented the way they were? We’re still stuck using our offensive and defensive infusion slots on Versatile Agony Resist infusions if we want to advance in fractals, and now we just have an extra slot to put more agony resistance. Free up the infusion slot so that we can actually use it for its original purpose. Make all ascended gear have +5 agony resistance inherently, drop the versatile infusions, and make obtaining more agony resistance done purely through the designated agony resistance infusion slot.

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

I was using the example to explain how time gates help equalize players goals and focus them together. Another example would be guild timers without them a super hard core guild would have finished all guild levels in 1 night where other guilds of equal size might take months. Then if you design new content around the guild that can do that much content in 1 night then the other guilds just get left behind in the dust. Vertical or horizontal progression doesn’t matter a player who is going to take 3 years to do something everyone else and in a few weeks makes it hard to balance. Now gates don’t make them equal at all, the players with more time will still complete things faster take my guild example the super good guild still finishes something in 5 weeks that took the other 3 months, but it does help close that gap. You really don’t want them to be that close you just don’t want them to be crazy far apart.

This also is super important for wealth disparity as far as economy goes but I’m keeping the examples as much around progression as economy is a totally different discussion.

I see what you’re saying, and I agree in a way when you’re talking about actual gameplay content like guild missions. I still don’t totally accept that example though, because you guys specifically made guild missions in such a way that future additions to the system wouldn’t necessitate more vertical progression; if a guild has a mission type unlocked, it’s unlocked. In that sense, whether one guild is ahead of another in progress is irrelevant, because they’re totally separate. They don’t affect one another, and it doesn’t have to affect your end from a content producing angle. New missions would be going into the preexisting categories. But I don’t want to harp too much on that because that’s not what I meant for the conversation to be about.

I’m more referring to the current system of ascended item acquisition, crafting in particular. I wouldn’t really consider it gameplay content, and at the end of the day, what does it matter if the hardcore portion of the playerbase is able to outfit their characters in full ascended on the day of release? Does it have a negative impact on the more casual players, or the game as a whole? Before ascended gear was released, someone could hop on the trading post and completely outfit their character in the best gear possible in less than a minute. It wasn’t a problem then, why does it necessitate gating now? Sure, if you guys were coming out with content that required gear checks, and any people without ascended gear couldn’t advance, then it would be a problem. Casual players would fall behind, and wouldn’t be able to experience future content as it’s released. The only thing that exists like that in the game right now is fractals, and that’s self-contained (plus, the content itself is accessible to anyone, since new fractals will show up at fractal level 1 and fractal level 50 alike).

I’m just not seeing how this gap between casual and hardcore players is a problem based on how you’ve designed consumption of content in this game. And frankly, it’s a gap that hardly existed before ascended gear. It’s only widened since.

Izzy, you gave an example a little earlier about how it’s a problem that there’s a big gap between players who play a lot versus players who don’t play as much, and you mentioned an example of the hardcore players being level 4000 while the casual players are 100.

I don’t think this example really works, because this game doesn’t have any kind of vertical progression like that. In fact, before ascended gear, the hardcore and the casual players were on a level playing field, time-gating or not. Exotics were all anyone had to worry about, and they weren’t too difficult or time consuming to attain. Now with the ascended crafting, it actually makes things worse. Players who don’t play as much have less laurels, they miss days to do their ectoplasm refinements, have less materials to use, less money to buy materials they might need, etc. So I’m failing to see how the time-gating helps keep a minimal gap between hardcore players and casual players on a power level, especially when one didn’t really exist before.

At this point, the only purpose this time-gating is serving is what you just said: it keeps a stranglehold on the ascended material market so that some players can make money selling instead of crafting. Is that really worth it? I agree that crafting is largely useless when it comes to actually being profitable for players, but there has to be a better answer than crippling our ability to advance at a reasonable speed. Especially when we want to have multiple builds, outfit multiple characters, and outfit those multiple characters with multiple builds of their own.